Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Benedict Donald]

Nozdormu Elves should totally be a thing! Let the Blood Elves be Blood Elves and give High Elves his awesome model.

[Pheraz]

You're also one of the few that thinks like me that nightborne npc looks much better. I like females better too, maybe the eyes are a bit too chinese but i love the npcs nightborne and i wanted them playable, and they were added for my surprise but totally changed, but the males looks amazing as npcs. As playable, and i already said this, i think blizzard needs to change male characters to make them more appealing, they don't have much manly good looking faces, they look weird.







Really and the chin nightborne heritage on female looks so bad.

It's like a damn beard. The rest of the heritage is great without that little detail. And male could have heritage like in the second image.
It could change from a dress to this on a male, once you mog it.

Ok just compare this ye:

What we have:


What we could have:



(Getting images from google, so still gets the current model)



I want them to be open minded. And change even Nightborne as they could change the High Elves.

They want to make npcs appealing for the game to play, but once it's for the player to play it's like "oh, now now guys, we need to make them look like night elves, after you spent court of stars and the whole suramar content seeing the nightborne nothing like night elves. We want you to look at your nightborne, and remember all the time, that it was a night elf, adding the same features on them now."

Reeeeee. xD Guess what i would have turned into a nightborne and give them more money if they made it look like more npcs.

Totally agreed! But what they should have changed is the running animation

It looks soooooo weird when they run

They should have taken the exact night elf animations as they are perfect as they are

[Ignaz]

I think we need to make a drawing: Humans: variety of colors, variety of eye colors, variety of skins, variety of political views, thin and fat, still HUMANS. On a fantasy game, they (High/Blood Elves) just got their eyes changed by something that happened instead of being born with it, doesn't mean they are not the same.

But you have as well kultirans to show different humans.

So this being said, you can have repeated races, but i don't think it's necessary. That's all. They even made Kultirans large to differentiate from normal humans.

Why would blizz make players look to blood elves eyes or high elves eyes, to see who is who, unless, they change their appearance too?

They can change them.I will stay with @Ignaz and say Nozdormu High elves personalization is the option here, no Doubt. They would look more unique. They got separated from Blood Elves so they can change meanwhile.

Maybe the Fel exposure didn't let Blood Elves evolve in appearance, but High Elves did. There is so much more stuff where you can have creat(e)ivity and not just mess around with the information you have, lore wasn't made with existent things, lore was created with creativity.

Being creative means someone that knows how to create. Not make a copy of a copy. And in this game you don't need to go in such a straight line.

(Even more them using void elves to show how we can just twist the lore in matter of seconds)

Nightborne will always be Night Elves variation. Evolved in a unique way, doesn't mean they are not night elves.

Night Elves evolved to Highborne and High elves, from Highborne to Nightborne, and High Elves to Blood Elves, from High/Blood to Void Elves.

Night Elves are like Human race, that had and have different people in every corner. It's ironic we being humans and not understanding there's different elves but they all came from the same first elves - Night Elves.

And the more they evolved, the more they appreciated other luxury than just nature, and living in trees. Seems pretty similar to humanity, in the beginning without much constructions there was a lot of nature, the more people appreciate architecture and loved luxury, the more that nature disappeared. But there's still places like those, for example, let's say Amazon. But they are trying to destroy amazon too. For what? To get wood, to make luxury toilet paper and paper in general. This is a luxury, i'm sure the nightborne would love it.

Dark trolls were the Australopithecus, and Night Elves are the genus Homo/Homo sapiens. (In evolution terms, not being racist, btw.)

My analogy:
All the elves are like humanity.
All elves exist.
None is dead.

I share your point, totally

[Gehrman]

Skyrim high elves looked weird

[Ignaz]

Firstly, I'm not interested in semantics. If you can't clearly and concisely state your argument, followed by backing it with credible sources, then you're really just reaching and arguing for the sake of personal biased agenda

.
If you are going to use a reference or quote to support your point of view, You have to be aware of the meaning of the words your "source" uses. Otherwise your point will be questioned quickly (as now).
Lore is important in the narrative chain of a story, but the (obvious) things that the viewer perceives with their eyes and that are not written in a wall are also important.

Secondly, we know blood elves and high elves are biologically the same. Blood elves were never "mutated", simply tainted due to indirect exposure to fel. That taint is cleansing, as is apparent due to the golden eye options. Soon blue eye options may also become a reality (we'll find out when blood elf customizations are announced/datamined), which would further support the notion that blood elves who don't dabble with fel (ie pretty much any blood elf who isn't a warlock or DH) are slowly being cleansed by the sunwell. And guess what, the high elf exiles are also sustained by this very same sunwell... further bonding the biology and physiology of both groups.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics
Here is a summary of the basics of population genetics. I recommend you go straight to the concept of mutation.
If you read the principle of mutation, you will understand that "a simple change in eyes and skin color" is enough to be considered a mutation.

Again, pointing out biology or physiology here is irrelevant:
1) It is a video game that does not explain a bit about the biological processes of each race
2) physiological processes are characteristics that can be shared between different races (95% of the physiological processes of humans are shared with other species such as dogs, etc.)

BE were not just indirectly exposed to fel energy. They literally used fel magic practices to drain the life / magic of creatures and crystals full of fel energy. Also, these demonic crystals constantly radiate the citizens of Silvermoon city.

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Nozdormu Elves should totally be a thing! Let the Blood Elves be Blood Elves and give High Elves his awesome model.

Bring Nozdormu Elves!

[protip]

.
If you are going to use a reference or quote to support your point of view, You have to be aware of the meaning of the words your "source" uses. Otherwise your point will be questioned quickly (as now).
Lore is important in the narrative chain of a story, but the (obvious) things that the viewer perceives with their eyes and that are not written in a wall are also important.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics
Here is a summary of the basics of population genetics. I recommend you go straight to the concept of mutation.
If you read the principle of mutation, you will understand that "a simple change in eyes and skin color" is enough to be considered a mutation.

Again, pointing out biology or physiology here is irrelevant:
1) It is a video game that does not explain a bit about the biological processes of each race
2) physiological processes are characteristics that can be shared between different races (95% of the physiological processes of humans are shared with other species such as dogs, etc.)

The physiological processes may be shared, but that's not the same as having identical physiology. Identical physiology means that they are the same "from the basis of cell function at the ionic and molecular level to the integrated behaviour of the whole body and the influence of the external environment" - according to the Physiological Society's homepage.

BE were not just indirectly exposed to fel energy. They literally used fel magic practices to drain the life / magic of creatures and crystals full of fel energy. Also, these demonic crystals constantly radiate the citizens of Silvermoon city.

Some did, but we all know that only the last sentence here is completely true and that you didn't need to be in Silvermoon while fel energy powered the city in order to be a Blood Elf.

[Obelisk Kai]

The physiological processes may be shared, but that's not the same as having identical physiology. Identical physiology means that they are the same "from the basis of cell function at the ionic and molecular level to the integrated behaviour of the whole body and the influence of the external environment" - according to the Physiological Society's homepage.



Some did, but we all know that only the last sentence here is completely true and that you didn't need to be in Silvermoon while fel energy powered the city in order to be a Blood Elf.

This talk of physiology is pretty much moot though. Blood Elf eye colour changed, nothing else, due to the magical ambience of fel energy being used to power projects in Silvermoon. The Blood Elves didn't physically consume the fel energies, as those who did mutated into Felblood Elves.

Regardless, ALL thalassians (with the likely exception of the Void Elves) are hooked up to the arcane/holy Sunwell now and have been for far longer than the Blood Elves were exposed to the fel alone. Any differences that persist between the two groups are likely too minute to be worthy of note, particularly as the only difference noted in the past two decades has been eye colour (and that is likely to be eliminated in the near future with expanded customizations).

[Ignaz]

The physiological processes may be shared, but that's not the same as having identical physiology. Identical physiology means that they are the same "from the basis of cell function at the ionic and molecular level to the integrated behaviour of the whole body and the influence of the external environment" - according to the Physiological Society's homepage.



Some did, but we all know that only the last sentence here is completely true and that you didn't need to be in Silvermoon while fel energy powered the city in order to be a Blood Elf.

It remains an irrelevant point. It's wow no Ganong of physiology.
Nobody teach you about in-game physiology in order to know if the physiological processes of HE would not be the same as even those of the nightborn e.g.
The only thing a player could use to be able to refer to an in-game difference between those two races would be a genetic difference (because it would be the only thing the player could see)

BE followed Kael'thas / Illidan's practices of using and consuming fel magic. Yes, there were elves who did not; those elves today are called HE and were exiled from Silvermoon (Quel'thalas) for not following a dictatorial mandate

[protip]

It remains an irrelevant point. It's wow no Ganong of physiology.
Nobody teach you about in-game physiology in order to know if the physiological processes of HE would not be the same as even those of the nightborn e.g.
The only thing a player could use to be able to refer to an in-game difference between those two races would be a genetic difference (because it would be the only thing the player could see)

Genetics determine physiology which in turn determines anatomy. Take this quote from the dictionary definition of the word physiology from Merriam Webster: "structure and function can't easily be separated in a scientific way, so 'anatomy and physiology' are often spoken of in the same breath." We have a canon source confirming that Blood Elves are physiologically identical to the high elves on the Alliance, contrasting that relationship with their mutual relationship to night elves, from which they are descended, and thus contradicting your Nightborne example directly, unless you mean to suggest that the Nightborne and the Quel'dorei evolved in exactly the same way over their 10,000 years of isolated history. Your argument here is extremely pedantic, and is entirely based on the assumption that they did not mean what the statement would imply in any normal context. "Physiologically the same race," for all intents and purposes, means that they are literally the same race.

BE followed Kael'thas / Illidan's practices of using and consuming fel magic. Yes, there were elves who did not; those elves today are called HE and were exiled from Silvermoon (Quel'thalas) for not following a dictatorial mandate

There's no way that you spend 2 minutes in this thread without being aware that the Blood Elves of Silvermoon consumed arcane energy and not fel. Rommath only taught the citizens of Silvermoon how to consume arcane energy, and the majority of Blood Elves had no idea fel energy was being used at all, let alone choosing to use it themselves. Even then, not all Blood Elves were exposed to fel radiation, as demonstrated by numerous examples of blue-eyed Blood Elves. Likewise, according to the Ask CDev question about Blood Elf eye color, the Allerian Stronghold high elves should reasonably have green eyes due to fel exposure as every one of them was "a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War." The reality is that eye color and small amounts of fel radiation do not change the nature of a high elf.

[Ignaz]

Genetics determine physiology which in turn determines anatomy. Take this quote from the dictionary definition of the word physiology from Merriam Webster: "structure and function can't easily be separated in a scientific way, so 'anatomy and physiology' are often spoken of in the same breath." We have a canon source confirming that Blood Elves are physiologically identical to the high elves on the Alliance, contrasting that relationship with their mutual relationship to night elves, from which they are descended, and thus contradicting your Nightborne example directly, unless you mean to suggest that the Nightborne and the Quel'dorei evolved in exactly the same way over their 10,000 years of isolated history. Your argument here is extremely pedantic, and is entirely based on the assumption that they did not mean what the statement would imply in any normal context. "Physiologically the same race," for all intents and purposes, means that they are literally the same race.

the fact that genetics, physiology and anatomy are closely related, does not mean that they share a narrow bond in the determination of the spice. The determination of species is merely genetic carried by the number of chromosomes (genetic material) that make up the nucleus of eukaryotic cells
This is not how physiological processes work, these only govern the cellular processes that keep an organism alive (it does not have much to do with the determination of anatomy). Again, the responsible for governing anatomy are genetics.

I'm saying it's irrelevant because it doesn't matter if HE and BE are physiologically equal. because we do not know for sure if this ''equality'' is shared with other races
e.g. humans; these have to have a certain physiological processes and genetic material very similar to HE in order to procreate hybrids like Arator. And when I refer to very similar, it is much more than you think.

I don't know where my argument looks like "extremely pedantic"

the majority of Blood Elves had no idea fel energy was being used at all, let alone choosing to use it themselves.

Ignorance about the ways they used does not exempt them from the fact that they used fel magic. Also, if they did not accept that way they would be exiled. That demonstrates the strange dictatorship that govierna Silvermoon
Every playable BE did it. And that is the stigma of this race.
And seeing it in hindsight, there are BE who mutated twice.

[protip]

the fact that genetics, physiology and anatomy are closely related, does not mean that they share a narrow bond in the determination of the spice. The determination of species is merely genetic carried by the number of chromosomes (genetic material) that make up the nucleus of eukaryotic cells
This is not how physiological processes work, these only govern the cellular processes that keep an organism alive (it does not have much to do with the determination of anatomy). Again, the responsible for governing anatomy are genetics.

I'm saying it's irrelevant because it doesn't matter if HE and BE are physiologically equal. because we do not know for sure if this ''equality'' is shared with other races
e.g. humans; these have to have a certain physiological processes and genetic material very similar to HE in order to procreate hybrids like Arator. And when I refer to very similar, it is much more than you think.

I don't know where my argument looks like "extremely pedantic"

My post explained how that equality is explicitly not shared with other races, even those as close as the night elves, and that their physiology was specifically referred to as marking them as members of the same race. In fact, how is it possible to be "physiologically the same race" if there are not physiological differences between races? How much more direct can they be?

Ignorance about the ways they used does not exempt them from the fact that they used fel magic. Also, if they did not accept that way they would be exiled. That demonstrates the strange dictatorship that govierna Silvermoon
Every playable BE did it. And that is the stigma of this race.
And seeing it in hindsight, there are BE who mutated twice.

This is more nonsense. Death knights certainly did not, and there are other Blood Elves that retain their blue eye color as well. The fact that those customization options aren't available to players proves nothing. A Blood Elf that wasn't exposed to fel radiation is still a Blood Elf.

[Ignaz]

In fact, how is it possible to be "physiologically the same race" if there are not physiological differences between races?How much more direct can they be?

we don't know that in wow's universe, that's why it's irrelevant. Why humans and elves can procreate hybrids? What elements the interaction with magic change to say that there is a physiological change or not?
It can be super canon that HE and BE are physiologically equal but that is irrelevant to establish a difference between races.

Now, the phenotype of each race is what we can see as players and that is where we can draw conclusions.
I can see small changes that can show the difference between HE and BE because they are phenotypically different, from their behavior to their colors
and those BE with blue eyes are just not corrupted, that's all. They would only bear the name of BE and its culture.

[protip]

we don't know that in wow's universe, that's why it's irrelevant. Why humans and elves can procreate hybrids? What elements change the interaction with magic to say that there is a physiological change or not?
It can be super canon that HE and BE are physiologically equal but that is irrelevant to establish a difference between races.

Now, the phenotype of each species is what we can see as players and that is where we can draw conclusions.

Not physiologically equal, but "physiologically the same race," while night elves, their closest relatives, are not. That's a direct quote. "We don't know that" is not a reasonable response, because it is copied verbatim from the Warcraft Encyclopedia, which is canon.

I can see small changes that can show the difference between HE and BE because they are phenotypically different, from their behavior to their colors
and those BE with blue eyes are just not corrupted, that's all. They would only bear the name of BE and its culture.

This is my point. Their separation is political. There's a reasonable discussion to be had over the ramifications of that, but your initial statement:

BE followed Kael'thas / Illidan's practices of using and consuming fel magic. Yes, there were elves who did not; those elves today are called HE and were exiled from Silvermoon (Quel'thalas) for not following a dictatorial mandate

was definitely false in that 1) Blood Elves did not all use or consume fel magic, let alone both, 2) the Alliance high elves are a subset of the high elves who did not use or consume fel magic, but not the entirety of that group.

[Ignaz]

Not physiologically equal, but "physiologically the same race," while night elves, their closest relatives, are not. That's a direct quote. "We don't know that" is not a reasonable response, because it is copied verbatim from the Warcraft Encyclopedia, which is canon.

It also makes no sense and still irrelevant. the proof is that humans can procreate hybrids with elves. being races (that is supposed to be) very different physiological, anatomically and genetically (if you want to set those patterns as a significant difference). Those are plotholes that can be found in any story.
Wow's narrative is not perfect

This is my point. Their separation is political.

political and phenotypical

1) Blood Elves did not all use or consume fel magic, let alone both

the 9% who stayed in Quel'Thalas had to do it, the 1% that did not do so was exiled.

2) the Alliance high elves are a subset of the high elves who did not use or consume fel magic, but not the entirety of that group.

uh... yeah, remember the reason they were exiled

[Varodoc]

Nozdormu Elves should totally be a thing! Let the Blood Elves be Blood Elves and give High Elves his awesome model.

Why? Blood elves are High elves, why should only Alliance-aligned High elves who are not Void elves have that model?

[Shakana]

I love the physiological discussion going on here, it's actually something i never saw when it's about high elves. Nice convo guys.

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Why? Blood elves are High elves, why should only Alliance-aligned High elves who are not Void elves have that model?

They could. That's what i'm trying to say even, but i think void elves since they are a mix of belves and high elves, if high elves ever get a model like nozdormu i guess that void elves would need a mix between nozdormu and belves appearance. I wanted to see high elves evolve, while belves couldn't because of their fel exposure thing.

I just want really to see them a little different. So i can say "oh! a high elf" and not needing to go close to see by the eyes. (even tho that if you're in a opposite faction you can see the difference on the tooltip+unitframes (or even portrait), but still would be a bit awkward.)

[Varodoc]

I love the physiological discussion going on here, it's actually something i never saw when it's about high elves. Nice convo guys.

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They could. That's what i'm trying to say even, but i think void elves since they are a mix of belves and high elves, if high elves ever get a model like nozdormu i guess that void elves would need a mix between nozdormu and belves appearance. I wanted to see high elves evolve, while belves couldn't because of their fel exposure thing.

I just want really to see them a little different. So i can say "oh! a high elf" and not needing to go close to see by the eyes. (even tho that if you're in a opposite faction you can see the difference on the tooltip+unitframes (or even portrait), but still would be a bit awkward.)

But that's not what High elves are. Nowhere is it stated that they are different biologically from other Thalassian elves, aside from the eyes (and not for long, since the Sunwell will eventually cleanse the Fel taint from the Blood elves). So if High elves received their own unique model, that model should be shared with the other playable Thalassian elves, just like both variations of orcs had the upright model.

At least the Kul Tiran model being different can be explained by Kul Tiras being a much harsher and deadly environment than serene Stormwind.

[Ignaz]

I love the physiological discussion going on here, it's actually something i never saw when it's about high elves. Nice convo guys.

we have to vary so the conversation does not become monotonous. haha

[baskev]

WoW is the officialy the longest thread ever. Atleast you can say high elves are a wanted/unwanted allied race.

[Shakana]

But that's not what High elves are. Nowhere is it stated that they are different biologically from other Thalassian elves, aside from the eyes (and not for long, since the Sunwell will eventually cleanse the Fel taint from the Blood elves). So if High elves received their own unique model, that model should be shared with the other playable Thalassian elves, just like both variations of orcs had the upright model.

At least the Kul Tiran model being different can be explained by Kul Tiras being a much harsher and deadly environment than serene Stormwind.

That's what i have said before again, i said, that you don't need to go straight up following lore, and need to be more creative. Blizzard can make lore going forward instead of the information of the lore you see everywhere. The game was created with a continuation lore (not talking about retcons), i mean actually something new, if night elves were able to evolve into so much other elves, why those elves stopped mutating/evolving suddenly?

High elves could indeed evolve and change their faces and body. There can be a way of introducing them like this. A more mature, forgiving, high elves, that will join factions and be a playable race and have evolved not only physically as they could have change their mindset over everything else, seeing what the world has been through, being stuck in the past is not a good idea. I actually think even that is time for high elves and blood elves to finally forgive one another.

"Five years we rot here, thrown out of our homes at your behest because we refuse to suck magic from living things like vampires." Renthar began to rise from his seat, leaning across the table, truly shaking with rage. "And now you want to offer aid? After all we have been through, you come now? After what the Horde did to us in the name of that bastard human who called himself ranger? How blind do you think I am, Lor'themar? I should kill you. I should kill you and send Sylvanas your head!"

"How did they react to you?" Aethas asked. Lor'themar turned to stare at him.
"Five years ago I threw them out of the homes they had fought for every bit as fiercely as anyone in Quel'Thalas today," he answered. "How do you think they reacted?"
- Aethas winced.

They had a huge conflict. But after so many years, they could not be divided.

The alive high elves never went through what the actual blood elves did. They never joined Kael'thas's army. They never learned how to siphon fel magic from Illidan.
They never had the bad experience with Garithos that drove them away from the Alliance. There was no reason for those high elves to become blood elves, much less join the Horde.

They remained Alliance. And Blizzard instead of killing them off or something, just kept them in the game. I surely understand why blood elves got added to the game back then, since it was burning crusade/legion theme, where blood elves have gone through some bat shit crazy back then.

Later on they could have add the high elves, they never did.

Now High elves and blood elves don't get along, but void elves are a mix of both on Alliance, they can just co-exist together? Just make them forgive all the past, blood elves had their reasons to be who they are.

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we have to vary so the conversation does not become monotonous. haha

Haha, ye but actually enjoyed it. Keep going.