Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

Small news: 8.3 PTR updated, new eye glow is in (but apparently it’s not totally finished yet).

Instead of flashlights in front of their eyes, characters have glowing eye textures.

But when I try to see NPC skins in the Wowhead dressing room, the blood elf green eye texture is still present over high elf and dark ranger skins. I’m not sure if it’s because those textures are missing or a problem with the viewer, but this means one thing:

The update to separate skin color from eye color is already in, at least for some races. (But the option to do so is not available for players, just to clarify).

I think right now only DK models are the ones with new eye glow (that's all I see on wowhead). Unless you mean on 8.3 PTR every race with glowy eyes is using the new one?

[Ignaz]

Good luck on your medical degree!

thanks

Still though, there are multiple definitions of words, and you said yourself that the definition you've provided doesn't make sense in the context it was used

.
I am referring to the semantic use of the word physiological in an attempt to create a marked equality between two groups in a world where the physiological principles of any of the mortal races have not been established. and the biggest evidence you can see is that you didn't answer any of the questions I asked to you, because you can't get this information, since Blizzard didn't bother to establish any principle.

The obvious implication of that is that Blizzard is using a definition that does make sense

This is where I disagree. as content creator; If I'm going to use a word to explain a fact to the players, I have to be sure that the technicality I will use makes sense. even more if is not from an area in which I am familiar with. that's where the plot holes come out.

specifically the one that I described and provided references for. Even doctors use that word in the manner I have described, which was the significance of the article that I linked.

The article that had a wrong title that had nothing to do with its content?

Physiology is only different in the fact that its misuse, as you might characterize it, is actually a result of the fact that "physiology and anatomy cannot easily be separated in a scientific way" rather than a simple misunderstanding.

what?

No one, even the authors of physiology textbooks, has the authority to invalidate that usage of language in general.

if we refer to the concepts and principles they study and teach; Yes, they can do it. It is their job to teach and correct. It's as if I told you that fel magic is actually made from avocado juice. immediately the player community would correct my mistake.

What I don't agree with is the story of the blood elves becoming a story of fel corruption or physical transformation

it doesn't have to become, it's already a story of fel corruption or physical transformation.

or duplicate races being added to the game as new content.

I think VE already took that train.

I don't think that Void Elves were responsible for that. As soon as the Sunwell was restored, the one definitive thing that separated blood elves and high elves simply evaporated. I mean, what is a blood elf without mana tap? A high elf that requires slightly more of an infinite resource? The blood elves were freed from the desire to mana tap in the same expansion that they were introduced, so as far as I can tell, the restoration of the Sunwell was a just way to put standard high elves on the Horde.

This is another evidence of plot holes. If you mean the addiction that blood elves have was cured, then why do they still need the sunwell?
and even if that were the case, there are still the phenotypic and political differences (not to mention the cultural ones since they have not been explored)
Blizzard took the identity of BE, literally copied it, and put it in the alliance with the VE. VE are BE in culture, history and model; that makes the individuality of blood elves as a group null

Claiming that mana tap was the source of that physical transformation is also a direct retcon, and like any other concept to redefine the relationship between high elves and blood elves, it would undermine a key aspect of modern Blood Elf (here a political group) society. Maintaining their homeland and way of life has been a central goal of the Blood Elves. If they are physically transformed, then the blood elf model no longer communicates the legacy of the high elves in the way that it does now. As of right now, they are essentially high elves living in their homeland as they did prior to the Scourge Invasion, except their allies are now the Horde. That model shows their connection to their heritage, which they consider extremely important. Separating them from that legacy visually would be a disservice to the Blood Elves thematically.

Nobody is talking about giving BE a new model

[DeicideUH]

I think right now only DK models are the ones with new eye glow (that's all I see on wowhead). Unless you mean on 8.3 PTR every race with glowy eyes is using the new one?

I checked the elf races in the wowhead dressing room and found out that eye color is not directly tied to skin anymore. You can check it by enabling NPC options and going to high elf or dark ranger skins. Also, male night elves eye textures are not all ready, and night warrior/dark ranger eye textures are missing. Before, the eye texture was part of the skin.

Also, I'm not sure, but it seems night elf male eyes are slightly bigger now. Before, they were very squinted, but it was hard to notice due to the flashlight glow in front of them. It was very noticeable in night warrior skin.

[Ielenia]

Well, they explained why a small subset of Blood Elves are used, sure. But why did they use THEM and then add the extra context that High Elves are being recruited as well.

Let me ask you this; Why do you think Blizzard felt obligated to use Blood Elves, to be led by a High Elf and recruit more High Elves, as opposed to just using High Elves from the get-go?

I have no idea what Blizzard was smoking, injecting AND inhaling on the day they decided the void elves' background.

I see absolutely no logical reason to use blood elves over high elves as the origin for the void elves considering the incredible demand for high elves since... I don't know, vanilla WoW?

And honestly, are you saying that you're more than willing to have an expansion releasing with predating High Elves? Would they even -BE- High Elves? Cause according to Blizzard HMT aren't Tauren, they're HMT.

But they're still tauren. Highmountain tauren differ from the Kalimdor tauren a little in culture (their love for flying) and in their physical appearance (the blessing from Cenarius). If Blizzard, in a new expansion, created a new continent in which lived a group of high elves, with no physical distinction from the high elves from the EK, and still the same culture, they'd be high elves, wouldn't they?

[matrix123mko]

That looks good yeah, those shoulders are just magnificent. More magic runes is something I am a big fan of. Wish they did that to more items, so hoping they do justice to some of the new sets we get in Shadowlands.

I was dissappointed that of all the nightborne themed sets in Legion none of them had runes. At least they could have had more fun with heritage armor.

[Manariel]

The high elves at Quel'Lithien Lodge turned into Wretched after they discovered and abused a source of seductive energy discovered by Ranger Lord Hawkspear.

That's right, even if I could argue that the average turned evil BE differ in the way it's portrayed : they seek more power to themselves when the ones in Quel'Lithien just tried to survive and fucked it up. But now that I think about it... why did they become Wretched ? After all, by the end of TBC, they should also benefit from the radiance of the restaured Sunwell and shouldn't have needed those artifacts to satiate their hunger for mana. Perhaps it happened during TBC ?

Killing BE civilians during the purge of Dalaran was "handwaved" away because it was for some sort of greater good.

Also, the term dubious can be used to describe someone who is "not to be relied upon"... which in reality is the perfect phrase to describe alliance aligned high elves. They abandoned their people in their greatest time of need (ie. rebuilding after the destruction Arthas wrought) simply because they preferred human potential. What makes matters worse is that humans tried to execute their kin just prior, yet they chose humans over kin. High elves are just as, if not more, dubious than BE or VE... they simply "handwave" their actions away.

The Sunreavers had proven to be a terorrist organization abusing the neutrality of Dalaran. They were punished accordingly. There is nothing to handwave, like with Taurajo. This is what happens to traitors in time of war. The Silver Covenant acted exactly as it should have, removing known danfers from the city, ensuring that they couldn't steal more artifacts of power to give to Garrosh.

Also, yeah, High Elves aren't dubious at all precisely because they chose the Alliance over their country. They saw the rot which existed in Quel'thalas even before the Scourge came in, and decided that they would rahter side with people with similar values, instead of letting blood decide for themselves where they should be. That's why they aren't dubious at all for me. They are heroic figures.

100% wrong. Blizzard actually had to put work in to differentiate VE from BE. It's why they very intentionally chose VE over HE. HE would require no work and would offer no differentiation whatsoever to BE... hence why Blizzard never went down the route of VE.

No. Blizzard recolored the Blood Elves and has already started using the Void Elves exactly like it has used Blood Elves before. High Elves wouldn't be able to be used in situation which are basically "went mad with power because he/she wanted more of it". Blood Elves do that all the time, and now Void Elves do exactly the same. Playable High Elves would actually have forced Blizzard to use Thalassian Elves in a very different way. it required far more work than just tackle some purple on a Blood Elf and call it a day.

But as you and other demonstrate, superfial difference matters more for the anti-HE crowd than significant but less visible difference. Which is just sad. But also why I and other will keep asking Blizzard to make high Elves playable. Because, if they could change the Zandalari models 3,5 times (the Vanilla one, the MoP one and the Isle of Thunder one, then BfA) then they can do the same for High Elves and just say "They were always like this".

[Aldo Hawk]

That's right, even if I could argue that the average turned evil BE differ in the way it's portrayed : they seek more power to themselves when the ones in Quel'Lithien just tried to survive and fucked it up. But now that I think about it... why did they become Wretched ? After all, by the end of TBC, they should also benefit from the radiance of the restaured Sunwell and shouldn't have needed those artifacts to satiate their hunger for mana. Perhaps it happened during TBC ?

Yeah, it's kinda odd, since the Quel'lithien elves were visited by Lor'themar in a book after the Sunwell got reignited.

So no, it happened after TbC.

[Combatbutler]

That's right, even if I could argue that the average turned evil BE differ in the way it's portrayed : they seek more power to themselves when the ones in Quel'Lithien just tried to survive and fucked it up. But now that I think about it... why did they become Wretched ? After all, by the end of TBC, they should also benefit from the radiance of the restaured Sunwell and shouldn't have needed those artifacts to satiate their hunger for mana. Perhaps it happened during TBC ?
.

It happened afterwards, since Lor'themar himself went there to inform the sunwell was back again and that kael'thas had died. So in the end they meddled with powers beyond their control and became wretched, just like every other wretched.

[protip]

thanks

I am referring to the semantic use of the word physiological in an attempt to create a marked equality between two groups in a world where the physiological principles of any of the mortal races have not been established. and the biggest evidence you can see is that you didn't answer any of the questions I asked to you, because you can't get this information, since Blizzard didn't bother to establish any principle.

There's no reason to answer any of those questions, because they are based on a view of language that is not accurate. You're dodging my point by defaulting to an irrelevant technical definition. If I ask someone to pass the salt at dinner and he gives me a shaker full of blue powder labeled "Copper Sulfate," then he has failed to identify the correct definition of the word in context. Even if the definition of a salt has a technical definition in chemistry that would support his interpretation, he is definitely wrong.

This is where I disagree. as content creator; If I'm going to use a word to explain a fact to the players, I have to be sure that the technicality I will use makes sense. even more if is not from an area in which I am familiar with. that's where the plot holes come out.

The article that had a wrong title that had nothing to do with its content?

what?

if we refer to the concepts and principles they study and teach; Yes, they can do it. It is their job to teach and correct. It's as if I told you that fel magic is actually made from avocado juice. immediately the player community would correct my mistake.

This just sounds like denial to me, sorry. You know full well what that word means in its given context and refuse to accept its widely known meaning. The conclusion is even implied in the sentence itself. In order for two groups to be "physiologically the same race," then there must be physiological characteristics that vary between races, and those differences must not be present in the two groups that are being compared. If you choose to believe that physiology refers to an undefined set of characteristics with no relevance to the game, then you can choose to believe that there are no problems and that Blizzard hasn't clearly communicated that blood elves and high elves are the same race. You'll definitely be wrong, but at least I'll have some copper sulfate.

it doesn't have to become, it's already a story of fel corruption or physical transformation.

There is a very minor aspect of fel corruption to the story of the blood elves of Silvermoon, after the point that they became blood elves. The process of becoming a blood elf involves neither of those things.

I think VE already took that train.

This is another evidence of plot holes. If you mean the addiction that blood elves have was cured, then why do they still need the sunwell?
and even if that were the case, there are still the phenotypic and political differences (not to mention the cultural ones since they have not been explored)
Blizzard took the identity of BE, literally copied it, and put it in the alliance with the VE. VE are BE in culture, history and model; that makes the individuality of blood elves as a group null

It's not a plot hole at all, they are still addicted, but that addiction has no impact on their lives as they are now because the Sunwell has already solved that problem. It's the same situation as for the Alliance aligned high elves. The Sunwell has not ended their addiction, it has sated it indefinitely. The Reliquary is still looking for a permanent resolution to that addiction that does not rely on the Sunwell, but in any case, the issue of magical addiction is not important to the current circumstances of the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are members of the high elf race living in their ancestral homeland with their historic culture under the government that was established by the high elves long prior to the Scourge Invasion. If your concept of Blood Elf fantasy doesn't take that into account, you are ignoring almost the entirety of their history.

Nobody is talking about giving BE a new model

No, you're talking about shifting their heritage out from under them, which has significant impact to how they are perceived. If they are in Silvermoon surrounded by statues that look different from them, they will appear out of place, which is not the case at all. They are the same elves that were living in Quel'thalas before they became blood elves, and they have gone to great lengths to maintain their way of life. Many of their eyes changed color for a time, but we are seeing with gold eyes that this can happen fairly easily. If priests and paladins can have gold eyes by now, what of arcane mages? What about 10 years from now? The fel taint has told its story, and the Blood Elves are now truly the legitimate continuation of High Elf society. Their model needs to communicate that.

[Ignaz]

There's no reason to answer any of those questions, because they are based on a view of language that is not accurate.

Why is it not accurate?

You're dodging my point by defaulting to an irrelevant technical definition.

What point? From the beginning of our discussion, you have been defending the fact that they use technicalities incorrectly

This just sounds like denial to me, sorry. You know full well what that word means in its given context and refuse to accept its widely known meaning.

If you refer to the avocado example, it is a reference with an absurd tone to demonstrate the absurdity of the controversy.
It is possible that I know what is fel magic or not and that is the point. I'm using wow technicality without knowing its meaning (in the example)

The conclusion is even implied in the sentence itself. In order for two groups to be "physiologically the same race," then there must be physiological characteristics that vary between races

there should be, but facts like humans and HE can procreate hybrids put them in doubt.

There is a very minor aspect of fel corruption to the story of the blood elves of Silvermoon, after the point that they became blood elves. The process of becoming a blood elf involves neither of those things.

you mean the process of taking the name of the blood elf, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about phenotypical (whether you consider them minimal or not) and psychological changes they suffered after the corruption caused by the interaction with fel magic.

It's not a plot hole at all, they are still addicted, but that addiction has no impact on their lives as they are now because the Sunwell has already solved that problem

.
what?
Now, let me try to understand your logic. I am addicted to drug X and that is my problem. I go to the sunwell clinic and psychiatrists with therapy help me cure my addiction. Then I go to my home and continue using the drug X. So I solved the problem of being addicted but I'm still addicted? And, how would my addiction not impact my life?

No, you're talking about shifting their heritage out from under them, which has significant impact to how they are perceived. If they are in Silvermoon surrounded by statues that look different from them, they will appear out of place, which is not the case at all.

man. nobody wants to change name, culture, model or the history of blood elves. Their changes occurred even before being playable.

[Katchii]

there should be, but facts like humans and HE can procreate hybrids put them in doubt.

1) Only if the offspring is able to procreate. There are examples of hybrids created from completely different races in real life, the offspring are just sterile.

2) You really can't take real world biology and science and try to apply it to a high fantasy setting. The same rules don't apply, mainly because the creators can just "MAGIC" their way out of it or just say that's not how it works, so it's pointless trying to argue why a real world application of biology calls into question something that's happening inside of a video game fantasy setting.

[protip]

Why is it not accurate?

What point? From the beginning of our discussion, you have been defending the fact that they use technicalities incorrectly

It's not a technicality. It's literally the definition of the word outside of the specific technical context that you are trying to enforce on it. Taking it in the context it was presented, there is no reason to view the statement in the way that you are.

If you refer to the avocado example, it is a reference with an absurd tone to demonstrate the absurdity of the controversy.
It is possible that I know what is fel magic or not and that is the point. I'm using wow technicality without knowing its meaning (in the example)

there should be, but facts like humans and HE can procreate hybrids put them in doubt.

You've said this many times, and it is not relevant. The creators of the game have given an explicit statement (many, many times) about the relationship between blood elves and high elves. Even if you argue that being physiologically the same race is inconclusive, the same article refers to blood elves and high elves directly as "members of the same race." There is no controversy here - they are the same race.

you mean the process of taking the name of the blood elf, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about phenotypical (whether you consider them minimal or not) and psychological changes they suffered after the corruption caused by the interaction with fel magic.

The process of becoming a blood elf is the process of using mana tap, which is not fel magic. In the Illidan questline, he sacrifices his mages in the same way, and the magic is clearly arcane, just as the Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent abilities have always been arcane. The wretched are not overwhelmed by fel magic, but by an overindulgence in arcane magic. There are also wretched that indulge in fel magic, and they have a different appearance. You are making this up.

what?
Now, let me try to understand your logic. I am addicted to drug X and that is my problem. I go to the sunwell clinic and psychiatrists with therapy help me cure my addiction. Then I go to my home and continue using the drug X. So I solved the problem of being addicted but I'm still addicted? And, how would my addiction not impact my life?

The high elves were (and are) also addicted to magic. This does not separate them from the high elves in any way. They were addicted to magic before the destruction of the Sunwell, so things are back to business as usual. They were high elves before, and without the need to mana tap, they are effectively high elves once again.

man. nobody wants to change name, culture, model or the history of blood elves. Their changes occurred even before being playable.

In your imagination, perhaps these changes exist. Perhaps you feel that the handful of customization options not available to players are indicative of some sort of physical transformation. However, existing canon lore specifically contradicts that idea, and the fact that blood elves look and act like high elves is and has been an integral part of their identity from their introduction to the game.

[Ignaz]

1) Only if the offspring is able to procreate. There are examples of hybrids created from completely different races in real life, the offspring are just sterile.

Races of the same species, remember that here we are taking Blizzard's definition of race; which encompasses the definitions of species and race at the same time.

2) You really can't take real world biology and science and try to apply it to a high fantasy setting. The same rules don't apply, mainly because the creators can just "MAGIC" their way out of it or just say that's not how it works, so it's pointless trying to argue why a real world application of biology calls into question something that's happening inside of a video game fantasy setting.

what you say is true, but I am referring to the technicality they use to describe, not their reality.

[Black Goat]

I honestly don't know what you are on about but one can feel the rage put on these words, I suggest you to calm down and write another response less filled with vitriol.

But you do know what I'm on about. You're feigning ignorance.

All Blood Elves are capable of having golden eyes, not just Lightbearers, as a result of the Sunwell being cleansed/infused. You denied that was possible. So yes, you did deny it. And no, I haven't misinterpreted anything. The information is quite easy to understand for most people.

[Katchii]

Races of the same species, remember that here we are taking Blizzard's definition of race; which encompasses the definitions of species and race at the same time.

I don't think I've even heard the term species used in WoW, so I'm curious to know where this is coming from. The only term I've ever heard it context of th race discussion is "race."

what you say is true, but I am referring to the technicality they use to describe, not their reality.

Again, the only term I've heard is "race" not species. Taking the description and then applying a real world term to that description and implying all of the real world implications of what that term is won't work here either due to the high fantasy setting and real world rules don't apply.

[Ignaz]

You've said this many times, and it is not relevant. The creators of the game have given an explicit statement (many, many times) about the relationship between blood elves and high elves. Even if you argue that being physiologically the same race is inconclusive, the same article refers to blood elves and high elves directly as "members of the same race." There is no controversy here - they are the same race.

I get your point. I understand that those who wrote the article refer to both groups as members of the same race, but I see two problems here:
- They use a technicality that leaves a hole full of incoherence
- Under the standards of the same company that created the game, minimal phenotypic and psychological changes are necessary to consider a race distinct from another (allied races)

The process of becoming a blood elf is the process of using mana tap which is not fel magic.

so we are talking about a phenotypic change that exists in lore

In the Illidan questline, he sacrifices his mages in the same way, and the magic is clearly arcane, just as the Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent abilities have always been arcane. The wretched are not overwhelmed by fel magic, but by an overindulgence in arcane magic. There are also wretched that indulge in fel magic, and they have a different appearance. You are making this up.

So, if there is no interaction with fel magic; how do you explain the phenotypic changes they suffered? (e.g. green eyes)

The high elves were (and are) also addicted to magic. This does not separate them from the high elves in any way. They were addicted to magic before the destruction of the Sunwell, so things are back to business as usual. They were high elves before, and without the need to mana tap, they are effectively high elves once again.

The sunwell cured corruption, not mutation. They are two phenotypically different groups
And if you cure the addition it is because you stop being addicted. It is inconsistent to be addicted and not be at the same time

In your imagination, perhaps these changes exist. Perhaps you feel that the handful of customization options not available to players are indicative of some sort of physical transformation. However, existing canon lore specifically contradicts that idea, and the fact that blood elves look and act like high elves is and has been an integral part of their identity from their introduction to the game.

My imagination? the differences are there to see them. and if BE and HE acted in the same way, from the beginning BE would not have exiled anyone

- - - Updated - - -

Again, the only term I've heard is "race" not species. Taking the description and then applying a real world term to that description and implying all of the real world implications of what that term is won't work here either due to the high fantasy setting and real world rules don't apply.

No matter how fantastic the game is, it has to have a certain relationship with the real world, so that the player can identify with the content. That relationship is expressed in their stories and explanations. If they use some technicality, they have to be aware of its meaning, because that is the string that keeps the player's mind tied to the content

[Katchii]

No matter how fantastic the game is, it has to have a certain relationship with the real world, so that the player can identify with the content. That relationship is expressed in their stories and explanations. If they use some technicality, they have to be aware of its meaning, because that is the string that keeps the player's mind tied to the content

I disagree with the idea that the game has to be based in reality or have some relationship to the real world for the player to identify with the content. Some things within the world being similar to what's in the real world helps, but there's no reason the two have to be directly related.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think most players even care about how scientifically accurate the world is, just so long as what logic the game uses is consistent and makes sense within the context of the world. And that logic does not have to be consistent with real world science.

Regardless of what words and context you're trying to project onto this world and it's science...it's not science that is governing how this world works it's the imagination and decisions of the creators. There are no hard and fast scientific/ biological rules that govern what happens within the World of Warcraft.

[Aldo Hawk]

But you do know what I'm on about. You're feigning ignorance.

All Blood Elves are capable of having golden eyes, not just Lightbearers, as a result of the Sunwell being cleansed/infused. You denied that was possible. So yes, you did deny it. And no, I haven't misinterpreted anything. The information is quite easy to understand for most people.

Goddamn dude seriously I am still trying to get what are you on about. Aside from pure vitriol from your part of course.

I NEVER denied Blood elves are capable of doing that. What happens is that you are pushing your interpretation of it over the provided explanation and I am not gonna even try to bother with it because there is no point whatsoever, do you get that? Do you at least get that?

The explanation is: Blood elf light worshipers get golden eyes, and for playable characters they didn't placed obstacles for non light worshiping classes, and they might even give golden eyes to some characters that aren't priests or paladins. The whole thing with playable characters is for the player to make it's own thing. For example, a rogue that worships the light but isn't a priest or a paladin.

The fact that we have only seen Blood elf priest and paladin NPCs with golden eyes is a big hint at it.

Easy to understand, easy to grasp, easy to not twist into out of the scheme with personal interpretations.

[Ignaz]

I disagree with the idea that the game has to be based in reality or have some relationship to the real world for the player to identify with the content. Some things within the world being similar to what's in the real world helps, but there's no reason the two have to be directly related.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think most players even care about how scientifically accurate the world is, just so long as what logic the game uses is consistent and makes sense within the context of the world. And that logic does not have to be consistent with real world science.

Although we think differently, I respect your point of view.

Regardless of what words and context you're trying to project onto this world and it's science...it's not science that is governing how this world works it's the imagination and decisions of the creators. There are no hard and fast scientific/ biological rules that govern what happens within the World of Warcraft.

I agree with what you say here. But my goal is not to integrate science as absolute principles in a fantastic world.
My argument is based on the semantic use of words related to these sciences to explain an important point such as differentiation between races (one of the pillars of the franchise). Even more because of the controversy caused by the HE request.

[Aldo Hawk]

I don't think I've even heard the term species used in WoW, so I'm curious to know where this is coming from. The only term I've ever heard it context of th race discussion is "race."



Again, the only term I've heard is "race" not species. Taking the description and then applying a real world term to that description and implying all of the real world implications of what that term is won't work here either due to the high fantasy setting and real world rules don't apply.

Of course the word species has not been used like that, and when it was used in the Warcraft movie it felt kind of out of place.

What I am taking from Ignaz's posts is that he is actually saying that the very word can't be treated that seriously, and not only the word 'species' but also the word 'race' itself that is the one that is much more used and that has a very wild meaning inside Warcraft that you will not find in a dictionary.