1. #13581
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraka View Post
    So you're using an example of another race that is just enough distinctly different to be a different race to justify making a different race of High Elves that are still the same as High Elves? So how are they introduced unless they're brand new Elves? You got the little change from Void Elves and felt slighted.
    I simply mentioned the Highmountain tauren because they're an example of an existing race having a population we did not know existed in a location we had no access to until recently.

    As for the rest of your post, nah.

    I'm not asking for "bone elves" or "highmountain elves" or "pale elves". I'm asking for high elves.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  2. #13582
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I simply mentioned the Highmountain tauren because they're an example of an existing race having a population we did not know existed in a location we had no access to until recently.

    As for the rest of your post, nah.

    I'm not asking for "bone elves" or "highmountain elves" or "pale elves". I'm asking for high elves.
    The worst part is that people complain about these comparatives without thinking a bit outside the box and also taking into account aesthetic suggestions or possibilities for them.

    In that case, Highmountain Tauren are just Tauren with antlers, and that is the truth of the matter.

  3. #13583
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Not at all and here's why :
    I am sure this will be disagreeable but lets go in
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    -Both BE and VE identify as Blood Elves (until a random event changed the Void Elves) not High Elves
    This s a nonfunctioning argument.
    Naturally BE and VE identified as the same prior to their transformation. What matters is aafter the fact. During which the VE becme different all together. At which point, bringing up the past is meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    -Both BE and VE dabble with dangerous and volatile energies (the Fel/the Void) and the first use of the VE in something not Faction War related is... them falling victim to the corruptive influence of the Void, just like several minor BE NPC have been made evil because they went mad with power - something which, to my knowledge, never happened to the HE
    HE's have dabbled with magical artifacts and dangerous magic before as shown on the isle of thunder where the harnessed the thunder magic.
    They also are prone to doing nasty things as well, such as feeding their own people to sharks.
    Or stealing magical artifacts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    -Both BE and VE deem it necessary for the survival and protection of Quel'thalas
    So did high elves who came to the defense of itand consider it their home as well
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    -Both BE and VE are seen acting in very dubious ways but handwave it away because it's for some sort of greater good
    So did High elves in purge of dalaran.
    Same people, same culture.

    VE's are different in physiology and appearance where as HE's are not.
    You need to look at it from a fundamental level, rather than looking for lore which is not supportive of you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    For all intent and purpose, VE are copy-pasted BE. They require far less work from Blizzard to differenciate them from the BE, because they can be used in the exact same way. Want an NPC going mad with power ? Use a BE or a VE, it won't make much difference in the end. And it really saddens me to say that, because I like the VE. But they are far closer to the BE than the HE are, nowadays.
    I mean, that is your opinion, but in this fundamental aspect a VE and BE are much more different in terms of design and appearance than BE and HE.
    Which is what the developers stated themselves.
    Anything else is looking to create differentiation which the lore does not suport, as the HE's have demonstrated they can be just as ruthless as the BE kin.

  4. #13584
    The Patient Astranea's Avatar
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    Forgive the intrusion, hope it is not felt as too much spam, but since this place is full of elf lovers and haters, I am going to drop here the link to another idea, based on the concept of Shen'dralar Highborne who rejoined with the Night Elves in Cataclysm representing the "missing link" between the Night Elves, the Nightborne and the High/Blood Elves evolution.

    Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (hence NOT High Elves)
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...9#post51894269


    image host

    Thread in the Shadowlands section clicking here, in case someone cares to carry on this alternative discussion elsewhere.

  5. #13585
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    so we are talking about a phenotypic change that exists in lore
    Yes, we are talking about the specific lore basis by which they became blood elves.

    So, if there is no interaction with fel magic; how do you explain the phenotypic changes they suffered? (e.g. green eyes)
    Here is the full response to the Ask CDev Q&A on that topic. Note in particular that it refers to high elves, not just blood elves.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Q: How did the blood elven fel eye glint become so widespread? The Warcraft Encyclopedia suggests that Rommath only taught the blood elves of Azeroth about how to siphon arcane magic, as most of the populace would likely be "horrified" if they knew the true extent of Kael's dealings with Illidan.

    A: The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way.
    The green eyes are not definitive of blood elves in general, but specifically of blood elves who were living near a source of fel radiation. The one part of this that has been expanded upon is the idea that it would take a long time to wear off. Golden eyes have been explained as a result of a close connection with the Light, implying that even if that fel magic might have lasting effects without intervention, other magical forces are capable of replacing it.

    The sunwell cured corruption, not mutation. They are two phenotypically different groups
    What mutation exactly? Beyond eye color in specifically Quel'thalas and Outland, which is evidently not permanent, there is no mutation in the blood elves.

    And if you cure the addition it is because you stop being addicted. It is inconsistent to be addicted and not be at the same time
    I'm not claiming that they're not addicted, I'm saying that high elves were addicted to magic for some 7000 years and none of them cared because the Sunwell made it a non-issue. Although the Blood Elves are attempting to cure that addiction for good, as the Nightborne have done, it's not something that they have to manage on a day to day basis because the Sunwell has been restored. Their way of life is essentially the same as it was before the Scourge Invasion.

    It is the exiles who gave up their way of life, homeland, and connection to arcane magic during the time the Sunwell was destroyed. Arcane magic withdrawal is also described as having serious consequences, including permanent mental and physical damage or even death, in the cases of the "very young, very old, or elves who were already unwell." If there is a case to be made for a distinct Alliance high elf race, it begins after the Scourge Invasion, and is a transformative process that involves the high elves shedding significant parts of the identity that the Blood Elves have restored.

    My imagination? the differences are there to see them. and if BE and HE acted in the same way, from the beginning BE would not have exiled anyone
    There are political differences, but the whole issue here is that political differences alone are not enough to justify a separate race. Mana tap, the singular definitive difference between blood elves and high elves, is completely irrelevant in a world where high elves have access to the Sunwell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    Forgive the intrusion, hope it is not felt as too much spam, but since this place is full of elf lovers and haters, I am going to drop here the link to another idea, based on the concept of Shen'dralar Highborne who rejoined with the Night Elves in Cataclysm representing the "missing link" between the Night Elves, the Nightborne and the High/Blood Elves evolution.

    Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (hence NOT High Elves)
    snip

    Thread in the Shadowlands section clicking here, in case someone cares to carry on this alternative discussion elsewhere.
    I like this idea. The Highborne of Azshara's time have a concept that hasn't really been explored, and I'd like to see more. It would fit in nicely as night elf customization, which I see as a big plus when discussing more elf concepts.
    Last edited by protip; 2019-11-22 at 10:43 PM.

  6. #13586
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    Forgive the intrusion, hope it is not felt as too much spam, but since this place is full of elf lovers and haters, I am going to drop here the link to another idea, based on the concept of Shen'dralar Highborne who rejoined with the Night Elves in Cataclysm representing the "missing link" between the Night Elves, the Nightborne and the High/Blood Elves evolution.

    Highborne customizations for the Night Elves (hence NOT High Elves)
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...9#post51894269


    image host

    Thread in the Shadowlands section clicking here, in case someone cares to carry on this alternative discussion elsewhere.
    I'm on board with this and it's as consistent as the customizations that are coming to Darkspear Trolls.

    I hope they also include Nozdormu like looks with it


  7. #13587
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I'm on board with this and it's as consistent as the customizations that are coming to Darkspear Trolls.

    I hope they also include Nozdormu like looks with it

    Agreed! One or both of these would satisfy my High Elf craving without having the Silver Covenant as playable (that doesn't mean I'm anti SC though).

  8. #13588
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're still taking a real world, scientific term with all of it's context and scientific application and applying it to a fantasy world in a video game. True, the word phenotype is just the outward physical appearance of something, but it's much easier to just say "eye color" without bringing science into it...because that's how Blizzard describes it.
    By using the word ''phenotype'', I am not implying a relationship between any science and the game (phenotypic variability is the same as visible variability). if you don't like the word, that's on your personal taste.
    Besides, I'm not the one who said ''physiologically the same'' in the first place, those who integrated science into the game were the developers themselves or whoever wrote that article.

    Trying to apply real world scientific terms to a high fantasy video game doesn't open gaps of opportunity for the story anywhere but in your head, though, because that science and all it implies doesn't exist within the World of Warcraft. The creators of the game have flat out stated that High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race. Discussing phenotypic differences between them and what that might imply genetically and whether or not they're really the same is a fruitless argument, because no matter what you say, what argument you come up with using real world scientific terms and semantics regarding their usage within the game, the creators have already decided and stated, multiple times, that they're the same.

    The main piece of the discussion that's still up for debate is whether having Alliance aligned High Elves as a playable race will ever happen. Cultural identity is still somewhat up in the air, but that's separate from the race discussion.
    It is good that they say that both groups are ''physiologically the same'', but those are details that have proven to be subject to change as we saw with the helm of domination.
    In this case the technicality used creates a gap of inconsistency that only adds more meanings and interpretations to the story, and it that's where players (to suggest and point) and developers themselves can take advantage to fracture the narrative line and create new trajectories.

    I will take the example of the helm of domination again (sorry for repeating it so much but it is the most recent):
    - an entire mythology had been created on one of the most famous visual feet that carried the lich king, relating it to a demonic race with special abilities of mind manipulation (something that both frostmourne and the helm of domination do). Members of this race forged the Helm.
    and so begins the original narrative. That story remained for many years until developers discovered an opportunity to relate many popular themes by changing a single detail.
    - Now we have a new expansion around the corner and they need something that will make you feel good:
    [explosion] SADOWLANDS [explosion]
    they need more good feelings! then they bring characters requested by the players:
    [explosion] THE BOLVAR [explosion]
    How do they relate both topics? easy, changing small... very small details like the great mythology behind the personification of [explosion]The Lich King[explosion].
    Now it was stolen by Nathrezims and not forged by them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    Yes, we are talking about the specific lore basis by which they became blood elves.
    well, you have proven my point that there are more differences and not just policies

    Here is the full response to the Ask CDev Q&A on that topic. Note in particular that it refers to high elves, not just blood elves.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Q: How did the blood elven fel eye glint become so widespread? The Warcraft Encyclopedia suggests that Rommath only taught the blood elves of Azeroth about how to siphon arcane magic, as most of the populace would likely be "horrified" if they knew the true extent of Kael's dealings with Illidan.

    A: The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way.
    yet another proof, not only to demonstrate the corruption suffered by blood elves (hence their changes) because of the interaction with fel magic. They also compare those changes with those suffered by Orcs, classifying them as extremely similar.
    Comparing the similarity (that they point) between both cases (regular Orcs being corrupted by fel magic and becoming different from Mag'har Orcs with Blood elves being corrupted by fel magic and becoming different from High elves) then we have another plot hole created by the same developers, because that turns BE (under Blizzard standards) into a different race.
    Another thing that this post demonstrates is: how easy it is to corrupt orcs and elves with magic.

    What mutation exactly? Beyond eye color in specifically Quel'thalas and Outland, which is evidently not permanent, there is no mutation in the blood elves.
    Different skin tone, different hair color, behavior?

    I'm not claiming that they're not addicted, I'm saying that high elves were addicted to magic for some 7000 years and none of them cared because the Sunwell made it a non-issue. Although the Blood Elves are attempting to cure that addiction for good, as the Nightborne have done, it's not something that they have to manage on a day to day basis because the Sunwell has been restored. Their way of life is essentially the same as it was before the Scourge Invasion.
    What is the problem of being addicted to a drug or stimulus?
    - that you become dependent on that drug or stimulus
    And if you're still dependent, what was resolved? How could that be an improvement to their lives?

    If there is a case to be made for a distinct Alliance high elf race, it begins after the Scourge Invasion, and is a transformative process that involves the high elves shedding significant parts of the identity that the Blood Elves have restored.
    Egree


    There are political differences, but the whole issue here is that political differences alone are not enough to justify a separate race. Mana tap, the singular definitive difference between blood elves and high elves, is completely irrelevant in a world where high elves have access to the Sunwell.
    you contradict yourself, you have already demonstrated even with Blizzard references that there are not only political differences but also phenotypical.
    Last edited by Ignaz; 2019-11-23 at 06:37 AM.

  9. #13589
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    By using the word ''phenotype'', I am not implying a relationship between any science and the game (phenotypic variability is the same as visible variability). if you don't like the word, that's on your personal taste.
    Besides, I'm not the one who said ''physiologically the same'' in the first place, those who integrated science into the game were the developers themselves or whoever wrote that article.

    It is good that they say that both groups are ''physiologically the same'', but those are details that have proven to be subject to change as we saw with the helm of domination.
    In this case the technicality used creates a gap of inconsistency that only adds more meanings and interpretations to the story, and it that's where players (to suggest and point) and developers themselves can take advantage to fracture the narrative line and create new trajectories.

    I will take the example of the helm of domination again (sorry for repeating it so much but it is the most recent):
    - an entire mythology had been created on one of the most famous visual feet that carried the lich king, relating it to a demonic race with special abilities of mind manipulation (something that both frostmourne and the helm of domination do). Members of this race forged the Helm.
    and so begins the original narrative. That story remained for many years until developers discovered an opportunity to relate many popular themes by changing a single detail.
    - Now we have a new expansion around the corner and they need something that will make you feel good:
    [explosion] SADOWLANDS [explosion]
    they need more good feelings! then they bring characters requested by the players:
    [explosion] THE BOLVAR [explosion]
    How do they relate both topics? easy, changing small... very small details like the great mythology behind the personification of [explosion]The Lich King[explosion].
    Now it was stolen by Nathrezims and not forged by them.
    well, you have proven my point that there are more differences and not just policies

    yet another proof, not only to demonstrate the corruption suffered by blood elves (hence their changes) because of the interaction with fel magic. They also compare those changes with those suffered by Orcs, classifying them as extremely similar.
    Comparing the similarity (that they point) between both cases (regular Orcs being corrupted by fel magic and becoming different from Mag'har Orcs with Blood elves being corrupted by fel magic and becoming different from High elves) then we have another plot hole created by the same developers, because that turns BE (under Blizzard standards) into a different race.
    Another thing that this post demonstrates is: how easy it is to corrupt orcs and elves with magic.

    Different skin tone, different hair color, behavior?

    What is the problem of being addicted to a drug or stimulus?
    - that you become dependent on that drug or stimulus
    And if you're still dependent, what was resolved? How could that be an improvement to their lives?
    I'm not arguing that being addicted is a good thing, I'm saying that their current relationship with the Sunwell is a return to the status quo that was in place prior to the Scourge Invasion.

    Egree

    you contradict yourself, you have already demonstrated even with Blizzard references that there are not only political differences but also phenotypical.
    You keep using the word phenotypical as if to imply that there are large scale changes, but there are not. The differences between high elves and blood elves are explicitly limited to mana tap, which no longer exists. Mana tap is explicitly responsible for zero physical changes. Zero. The behavioral changes resulting from mana tap are limited to politics and mana tap, so far as we've seen, and acting slightly differently is not a basis for a separate race, anyway. The Blood Elves live almost exactly as they did before the Scourge Invasion.

    You say "yet another proof," but Blizzard has specifically explained that small amounts of fel radiation would affect both blood elves and high elves equally. Also, that "sign of slight corruption" is described directly as "green eyes." If you feel there is a contradiction because high elves are often slightly different in color in the game, the easiest and most consistent way to resolve it is to allow blood elf players to take the appearances that are unavailable to them, particularly given that Shadowlands is expanding on player customization. If a troll player can play a sand troll and a dwarf can be a Wildhammer, why shouldn't I be able to play a blood elf who lived outside of Quel'thalas during the time fel crystals were used? Worse, why would you redefine the history of the most popular playable race just for the sake of excluding that option to the people who already play it?

  10. #13590
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    You keep using the word phenotypical as if to imply that there are large scale changes, but there are not.
    I never used the word ''phenotypical'' as if to imply that there are large scale changes, that's in your imagination.
    From early on I have been highlighting that both groups are similar, however they have visible differences (whether you consider them small or big) comparable to the cases of the Allied races. And if you insist that the use of the word phenotype implies a large-scale mutation (when I have explained multiple times that it is a synonym for visual variability), I will have to ignore you and take you as a troll. It is not necessary for an elf to have eight eyes on his face in order to be phenotypically different from an elf with a visual pattern that we are accustomed to seeing, a change in skin tone is sufficient.

    The differences between high elves and blood elves are explicitly limited to mana tap, which no longer exists. Mana tap is explicitly responsible for zero physical changes. Zero. The behavioral changes resulting from mana tap are limited to politics and mana tap, so far as we've seen, and acting slightly differently is not a basis for a separate race, anyway. The Blood Elves live almost exactly as they did before the Scourge Invasion.
    You contradict yourself, and you contradict the reference you used.
    You have shown that the differences are not merely political and with your reference you pointed out the similarity between the changes the orcs suffered and those that blood elves suffered.

    You say "yet another proof," but Blizzard has specifically explained that small amounts of fel radiation would affect both blood elves and high elves equally
    .
    And...?

    Also, that "sign of slight corruption" is described directly as "green eyes."
    because they asked specifically about their eye color, no other changes they have suffered.

    If you feel there is a contradiction because high elves are often slightly different in color in the game, the easiest and most consistent way to resolve it is to allow blood elf players to take the appearances that are unavailable to them
    They would stop being blood elves, and you would break the visual identity that they have been carrying for years. Golden eyes almost do that.

    why would you redefine the history of the most popular playable race just for the sake of excluding that option to the people who already play it?
    Because people can play "blood elves" and not "high elves". If players could create high elves for the horde, that would completely kill the identity of the race as a banner of the horde.

  11. #13591
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    I never used the word ''phenotypical'' as if to imply that there are large scale changes, that's in your imagination.
    From early on I have been highlighting that both groups are similar, however they have visible differences (whether you consider them small or big) comparable to the cases of the Allied races. And if you insist that the use of the word phenotype implies a large-scale mutation (when I have explained multiple times that it is a synonym for visual variability), I will have to ignore you and take you as a troll. It is not necessary for an elf to have eight eyes on his face in order to be phenotypically different from an elf with a visual pattern that we are accustomed to seeing, a change in skin tone is sufficient.

    You contradict yourself, and you contradict the reference you used.
    You have shown that the differences are not merely political and with your reference you pointed out the similarity between the changes the orcs suffered and those that blood elves suffered.
    In what way have I contradicted my source? They explain that green eyes are not the result of becoming a blood elf and that blood elves only knew how to siphon arcane magic. Fel radiation =/= blood elf. It seems like you are justifying the physical changes necessary for a new race with A) mana tap, in which case you are disagreeing with established lore, or B) fel radiation, in which case it does not apply to all blood elves and is described as simply an eye color that will fade with time or the pressure of a different source of magic. I don't see a good option there. Is there a better one? What do you feel is the best solution and why is it a good decision for the game as a whole?

    Personally, I think something like the Shen'dralar night elf customization could add a similar flavor based on a night elf skeleton, with a plausible lore explanation for the disparity in physical appearance based on their long history of isolation. Are there issues with that idea that I might not have considered?

    And...?

    because they asked specifically about their eye color, no other changes they have suffered.

    They would stop being blood elves, and you would break the visual identity that they have been carrying for years. Golden eyes almost do that.

    Because people can play "blood elves" and not "high elves". If players could create high elves for the horde, that would completely kill the identity of the race as a banner of the horde.
    My understanding of blood elf fantasy is that blood elves are high elves on the Horde. That's what I've been saying this whole time. What is this blood elf identity you feel is at risk of dying? It's not like green eyes would become unavailable with new customization options. Is it not reasonable that their attempts to restore Quel'thalas are ultimately successful?
    Last edited by protip; 2019-11-23 at 04:29 PM.

  12. #13592
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    In what way have I contradicted my source?
    You said that the only difference between BE and HE is the mana tap. Then you bring a Blizzard reference where they say that the case of corruption suffered by blood elves is extremely similar to that suffered by the orcs. What happened to Orcs? And why does that change make them a different race from the Mag'har? (not only in lore, but also in their visual) and before that, you brought an article where the same company claims that both HE and BE are physiologically the same (without corruption or mutation) [explosion] contradictions everywhere [explosion]

    They explain that green eyes are not the result of becoming a blood elf and that blood elves only knew how to siphon arcane magic.
    Of course... the cultural transition that took 9% of Quel'thalas survivor was in honor of his fallen brothers, taking the name of Blood elves. After that there were more changes.

    Fel radiation =/= blood elf.
    this is the second step... their interaction with fel magic made them change phenotypically.

    It seems like you are justifying the physical changes necessary for a new race
    I didn't have to do it, Blizzard did it for me.

    A) mana tap, in which case you are disagreeing with established lore
    I never said anything about the absence of mana tap.
    B) fel radiation, in which case it does not apply to all blood elves and is described as simply an eye color
    If you talk about Blizzard's post, where they show that there are changes; I already told you that they speak only of eye color because that was the subject of the question. And those who were not in Quel'thalas after the third war were still phenotypically HE

    that will fade with time or the pressure of a different source of magic.
    Like regular orcs.

    I don't see a good option there. Is there a better one? What do you feel is the best solution and why is it a good decision for the game as a whole?
    I will tell you for the last time since I have expressed my personal idea on multiple occasions:
    - Integrate HEs as a separate race (whether they are an allied race or not) by molding them with characteristics similar to BE but with certain minimal differences that are enough to not confuse them with BE. (not like the ones they did with VE)
    - lore (similar to Mag'har): all HE groups throughout azeroth gathered under a single banner, the Alliance

    Personally, I think something like the Shen'dralar night elf customization could add a similar flavor based on a night elf skeleton, with a plausible lore explanation for the disparity in physical appearance based on their long history of isolation. Are there issues with that idea that I might not have considered?
    Not at all, it's your idea. you are totally free to share it


    What is this blood elf identity you feel is at risk of dying?
    if you google blood elves what do you see?
    What I see is a group of tanned skin elves with green eyes and imposing but vain looking.

    If you change its aspects by giving them characteristics such as: pale skin with a pale and bluish hair color and the pillar of their image (their stigma) changed for blue eyes, what would you have? a HE of the alliance in the horde. a total identity break
    The same happened with VE and worst, because they are blood elves directly, on the opposite side. (no matter how many tentacles you want to put on them, they were directly BE)

  13. #13593
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    You said that the only difference between BE and HE is the mana tap. Then you bring a Blizzard reference where they say that the case of corruption suffered by blood elves is extremely similar to that suffered by the orcs. What happened to Orcs? And why does that change make them a different race from the Mag'har? (not only in lore, but also in their visual) and before that, you brought an article where the same company claims that both HE and BE are physiologically the same (without corruption or mutation) [explosion] contradictions everywhere [explosion]

    Of course... the cultural transition that took 9% of Quel'thalas survivor was in honor of his fallen brothers, taking the name of Blood elves. After that there were more changes.

    this is the second step... their interaction with fel magic made them change phenotypically.

    I didn't have to do it, Blizzard did it for me.

    I never said anything about the absence of mana tap.

    If you talk about Blizzard's post, where they show that there are changes; I already told you that they speak only of eye color because that was the subject of the question. And those who were not in Quel'thalas after the third war were still phenotypically HE

    Like regular orcs.

    I will tell you for the last time since I have expressed my personal idea on multiple occasions:
    - Integrate HEs as a separate race (whether they are an allied race or not) by molding them with characteristics similar to BE but with certain minimal differences that are enough to not confuse them with BE. (not like the ones they did with VE)
    - lore (similar to Mag'har): all HE groups throughout azeroth gathered under a single banner, the Alliance

    Not at all, it's your idea. you are totally free to share it

    if you google blood elves what do you see?
    What I see is a group of tanned skin elves with green eyes and imposing but vain looking.

    If you change its aspects by giving them characteristics such as: pale skin with a pale and bluish hair color and the pillar of their image (their stigma) changed for blue eyes, what would you have? a HE of the alliance in the horde. a total identity break
    The same happened with VE and worst, because they are blood elves directly, on the opposite side. (no matter how many tentacles you want to put on them, they were directly BE)
    Ok, so thanks for explaining. I guess you missed the part where he said "if you were a high elf in Quel'thalas or Outland." It's not a contradiction at all, it's a limited statement. You have generalized that fel corruption to all blood elves, which is simply not accurate. Also, when I said that there were blue eyed blood elves in the game, I didn't just mean in the lore.

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=81946/teris-blightsunder
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=69259/lanesh-the-steelweaver
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=66180/master-cheng

    There you have a few named examples, and there are several blue eyed Sunreaver NPCs, such as the Sunreaver Captain and Frosthand, unless you're telling me that there are high elves on the Horde.

  14. #13594
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    You said that the only difference between BE and HE is the mana tap. Then you bring a Blizzard reference where they say that the case of corruption suffered by blood elves is extremely similar to that suffered by the orcs. What happened to Orcs? And why does that change make them a different race from the Mag'har? (not only in lore, but also in their visual)
    Pardon but...what?
    I have never seen any statements where maghar orcs are a different race from regular orcs.


    Like regular orcs.


    I will tell you for the last time since I have expressed my personal idea on multiple occasions:
    - Integrate HEs as a separate race (whether they are an allied race or not) by molding them with characteristics similar to BE but with certain minimal differences that are enough to not confuse them with BE. (not like the ones they did with VE)
    - lore (similar to Mag'har): all HE groups throughout azeroth gathered under a single banner, the Alliance


    Not at all, it's your idea. you are totally free to share it



    if you google blood elves what do you see?
    What I see is a group of tanned skin elves with green eyes and imposing but vain looking.

    If you change its aspects by giving them characteristics such as: pale skin with a pale and bluish hair color and the pillar of their image (their stigma) changed for blue eyes, what would you have? a HE of the alliance in the horde. a total identity break
    The same happened with VE and worst, because they are blood elves directly, on the opposite side. (no matter how many tentacles you want to put on them, they were directly BE)[/QUOTE]

  15. #13595
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    Ok, so thanks for explaining. I guess you missed the part where he said "if you were a high elf in Quel'thalas or Outland."
    And you missed the part where I said that those blue-eyed blood elves are just uncorrupted elves (politically BE and phenotypically HE). That is not the face of the Horde. (green eyes / tanned skin).

    You have generalized that fel corruption to all blood elves, which is simply not accurate.
    I never said that the entire population of blood elves was corrupt. The vast majority was corrupted by fel magic.
    The personification of those thalassian elves who represent the Horde are Blood elves (green eyes and tanned skin) and the personification of those thalassian elves that represent the Alliance are HE (pale skin and pale hair tones with blue eyes)


    There you have a few named examples, and there are several blue eyed Sunreaver NPCs, such as the Sunreaver Captain and Frosthand
    Cool

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Broflake View Post
    Pardon but...what?
    I have never seen any statements where maghar orcs are a different race from regular orcs.
    So why are they an allied race and not a customization for regular orcs?

  16. #13596
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    And you missed the part where I said that those blue-eyed blood elves are just uncorrupted elves (politically BE and phenotypically HE). That is not the face of the Horde. (green eyes / tanned skin).

    I never said that the entire population of blood elves was corrupt. The vast majority was corrupted by fel magic.
    The personification of those thalassian elves who represent the Horde are Blood elves (green eyes and tanned skin) and the personification of those thalassian elves that represent the Alliance are HE (pale skin and pale hair tones with blue eyes)

    Cool
    So you just don't let lore, in-game examples, or the developer's vision get in your way. Good to know. I won't waste any more time here. Thanks for sating my curiosity.

  17. #13597
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Just ask Blizzard to give Void Elf, a way to change to elf form just like Worgen are able to change to human.....
    People have been asking for this since the race was announced. It's the least Blizzard could do and they won't, likely because Blizzard employees love crapping on the Alliance and withholding even the Alliance's most basic themes.

  18. #13598
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Just ask Blizzard to give Void Elf, a way to change to elf form just like Worgen are able to change to human.....

    High elves are never going to be a race for the alliance....
    Or even just pink skin customization options, it doesn't have to be a racial ability.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  19. #13599
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    So you just don't let lore, in-game examples, or the developer's vision get in your way. Good to know. I won't waste any more time here. Thanks for sating my curiosity.
    You're welcome!
    Last edited by Ignaz; 2019-11-24 at 05:34 PM.

  20. #13600
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Or even just pink skin customization options, it doesn't have to be a racial ability.
    Blizzard will likely do neither. Two reasons. One, the blue/purple skin tones are thematically appropriate for a Void Elf and were a deliberate choice to distinguish them from Blood Elves, Blood Elves having the human range of skin tones.

    And two, human nature being what it is, giving human range skin tones to Void Elves would mean most Void Elves taking that customisation rather than thematically appropriate blues or purples. Void Elves as a group would lose something distinctive and they have a right to be their own thing, not forever treated as the next best thing to a high elf on the Alliance and made to suffer for that.

    Did they say the human range skin tones were possible on Void Elves? Yes they did, just as Ion Hazzikostas said in 2014 that High Elves (without modification) were a possible sub-race. Only when they sat down and worked through the implications did they seemingly create Void Elves as an alternative, just as when they sit down and think through the ramifications of normal skin on Void Elves that they will probably back off.

    Instead, I see it being likelier that Blizzard could provide alternative skin tones similar to the doctored images you posted previously, of the partially normal Void Elves who are mottled and disfigured with the void. I call those the monkey paw result. If anything happens to the Void Elves in terms of tones, it would likelier be that.
    Although I say again, they should use the opportunity of a Void Elf customization pass to lean into the void fantasy rather than duplicate the Blood Elf one. They could give the Void Elves some pretty nifty monstrous options.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-11-24 at 09:08 PM.

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