Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Thalassian Bob]

Ah, I wrote that post in jest ! I was poking fun at some of the posters over in the Lore forum who only seem to function when there's complaints to do about the writers with how they're writing certain characters/groups arcs.

I am pointing out merely that this is all a fictional world where none of these characters/groups have motivations of their own accord, it's all at the behest of what the dev team implements.

But I do agree with your post that a schism formed from the foundation of hatred for the opposing faction fits more, and actually I think that is what Blizzard has been doing after TBC. In MoP the Purge of Dalaran involved the factional allegiances to a greater degree than simply High Elf/Blood Elf hate (though that did still exist). You see it during the Reckoning bit with Taran Zhu as well -> despite there being Blood Elf soldiers vs High Elf soldiers the squabbles brought up are faction-based (Vereesa referencing the death of Rhonin aka Mana bombing Theramore) (Jaina mentioning how 'they' [Horde] have squandered every attempt at peace).

More than likely because at TBC's culmination the Blood Elves are no longer the "mana vampires" they were introduced as.

Even when the Purge is brought up again during the War Campaign, the Sunreavers are aiming their vengeance at the Alliance as a whole and not merely the High Elves nor only Jaina.

Magister Umbric in his commentary makes mention that he and his group never agreed that joining the Horde was good/right and feels the Alliance are where the Thalassians belong.

Vereesa in the Three Sisters comic talks about Blood Elves making the "right choice" (paraphrasing) about coming back to the Alliance and Sylvanas scoffing that they're where they want to be (in the Horde).

So I think we are actually seeing that, and Silver Covenant has always been against the Horde in general, forming up because they refused to accept the Council allowing Sunreavers (Horde Blood Elves) into the city of Dalaran.

But overall I do agree, that's a much better focus of hate (the factions) for the High Elf/Blood Elf schism!

Ah, okay. Fair enough!

You make some good points. It's just a shame the Silver Covenant are lead by Vereesa and she acts as the face of their order. Her character and motivations were already established before Wrath by one (not-so-great) writer. And her resistance to Sunreaver admission to Dalaran seems a lot more petty and personal than I would prefer - basically basing her entire dislike of blood elves on one individual - her mad cousin. Of course, after her husband gets blown up her motivations become a lot more understandable. I would have preferred they were lead by some grizzled veteran of the Second War who lost their family to the Amani or something.

But, we must play the had we're dealt when it comes to canon, I suppose. But, yeah, the high elves tolerating the void elves because they both serve under a common banner and are both exiled from Silvermoon is enough motivation for the two groups to cooperate for me. The high elves who would hang about with Ren'dorei are probably more anti-Horde than they are anti-Silvermoon (unlike Hawkspear's ilk).

[Broflake]

100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde, and the perhaps two who could be High Elves on the Horde have zero lore and are basically just mistakes that the devs never bothered themselves to correct.

The two who are high elves on the Horde don't need to have any lore. They are there, and that is all that matters. You claiming them as a mistake is just your opinion. Secondly,. no, you are false in this regards. Auric sunchaser and his high elves are neutral, and are not allied with the alliance.
The Dalaran high elves are not allied with the alliance, they are neutral.
You have no lore to support this suggestion Manariel, so I am unsure where you got this notion.
It is even stated by the encyclopedia that the high elves are not united.

And it's jsut false to claim that the High Elves presence is small in game. They are extremely numerous. Far more than Worgens or Draeneï or even Gnomes, a core race of the Alliance

I mean...Worgen, Dranei, and gnomes all have zones to themselves where as high elves do not.

[elbleuet]

The two who are high elves on the Horde don't need to have any lore. They are there, and that is all that matters. You claiming them as a mistake is just your opinion. Secondly,. no, you are false in this regards. Auric sunchaser and his high elves are neutral, and are not allied with the alliance.

Neutrality means nothing in WoW, so please stop with that nonsense.

He is firmly Alliance, and the Allerian elves are Alliance.

You can be neutral, and Alliance too. See Khadgar, Arator, Velen, Malfurion and even Tyrande in Legion.
But ofc, you can be Horde and neutral too. See Thrall, Baine, Liadrin, Halduron, Aethas & Vol'Jin for example.

The Dalaran high elves are not allied with the alliance, they are neutral.

They're Alliance, and neutral toward the Horde.

[Ignaz]

All elves turn old after a time. It is a problem.

it would be a problem if they aged quickly, but they are a long-lived race. In all that time they can find a thousand ways to cure their addiction

- - - Updated - - -

It's an "addiction" none of them knew they had and no one alive was likely even responsible for starting it. I don't think even old Anasterian was alive (or in a position of power at least) when the Sunwell was created.

Ignorance does not exempt them from their actions. They are addicted, it is a fact; and even after knowing it, they want to remain addicted and drain the lives of other living beings to satiate their addiction.
Of course, after the sunwell restoration they stopped draining lives, but I am sure that if sunwell had not been restored, they would continue draining lives.

The blood elves had to stave off a crippling - and at times deadly - addiction whilst also fighting an impossible war that threatened the end of their entire species. I think draining a few non-sapient creatures of their mana to deal with the addiction whilst dragging their society back from the brink is perfectly justifiable.

The weight of their morals is not in doing the logical thing to save some lives, it is in choosing to satisfy their addiction through the dispossession of the vital force of other living beings (it doesn't matter if they were non-sapient). If they exclusively did it to save the children and the old ones, it could be justifiable.

The high elves away from Quel'Thalas, like Vereesa, had the luxury of dealing with their pangs in much safer environments.

like exile? you have to understand that an immigrant does not have a good time in his first moments, and if you add their ailments... it is something less pleasant.

[scubi666stacy]

it would be a problem if they aged quickly, but they are a long-lived race. In all that time they can find a thousand ways to cure their addiction

- - - Updated - - -


Ignorance does not exempt them from their actions. They are addicted, it is a fact; and even after knowing it, they want to remain addicted and drain the lives of other living beings to satiate their addiction.
Of course, after the sunwell restoration they stopped draining lives, but I am sure that if sunwell had not been restored, they would continue draining lives.


The weight of their morals is not in doing the logical thing to save some lives, it is in choosing to satisfy their addiction through the dispossession of the vital force of other living beings (it doesn't matter if they were non-sapient). If they exclusively did it to save the children and the old ones, it could be justifiable.


like exile? you have to understand that an immigrant does not have a good time in his first moments, and if you add their ailments... it is something less pleasant.

How is it different from killing animals for their meat?
Honestly, this is really hypocritical.

[Ignaz]

How is it different from killing animals for their meat?
Honestly, this is really hypocritical.

You eat meat to feed on its nutrients and these keep you physiologically optimal, not by addiction. It is the need for food (of any living being) that leads you to hunt or raise animals for food, not addiction.

If you feel that it is something hypocritical it would be like saying that it is also hypocritical to be against cocaine because they also come from the vegetable kingdom and you eating carrots.

It is one thing to kill in a controlled way because of your need to eat and another is to kill to satisfy your addiction.

[Thalassian Bob]

The weight of their morals is not in doing the logical thing to save some lives, it is in choosing to satisfy their addiction through the dispossession of the vital force of other living beings (it doesn't matter if they were non-sapient). If they exclusively did it to save the children and the old ones, it could be justifiable.


like exile? you have to understand that an immigrant does not have a good time in his first moments, and if you add their ailments... it is something less pleasant.

Every race on Azeroth does that with meat multiple times a day! If meat isn't necessary in our world, it's probably not necessary on Azeroth either.

The only canonically exiled group were the elves of Quel'Lithien. Others like those in Dalaran or Stormwind were probably well established expats at the time of the Sunwell's destruction.

[Ignaz]

Every race on Azeroth does that with meat multiple times a day! If meat isn't necessary in our world, it's probably not necessary on Azeroth either.

You do not eat meat by addiction.
Addiction is not a synonym for need or survival.

The only canonically exiled group were the elves of Quel'Lithien. Others like those in Dalaran or Stormwind were probably well established expats at the time of the Sunwell's destruction.

You are not getting the point. An immigrant goes through very difficult adaptation possesses (whether exiled or not). If you add to that their ailments, it makes the process even more difficult both psychologically and physically

[Thalassian Bob]

You do not eat meat by addiction.
Addiction is not a synonym for need or survival.

You are not getting the point. An immigrant goes through very difficult adaptation possesses (whether exiled or not). If you add to that their ailments, it makes the process even more difficult both psychologically and physically

You don't eat meat out of a need for survival, you eat it out of preference or convenience. The nutrients you get from meat can be obtained elsewhere in a balanced diet, but many people cannot be bothered to accommodate a meat-free diet because meat is an admittedly easier way to get a lot of important nutrients all in one food type. Lentils and nuts and all that sort of thing are probably available in Azeroth too, so someone on Azeroth who criticises the blood elves for draining magic from livestock but eats meat themselves is a hypocrite.

I am getting it and I'm telling you that I wager most high elves in Dalaran and Stormwind and other Alliance lands had probably been there for a considerable amount of time and were probably very at home. Plus, their difficulties in assimilating or whatever could not possibly compare to the horrific fight for survival the blood elves faced every day in the wake of Arthas' attack. Not to mention the grief. 90% of everyone you know and love gone.

[Ignaz]

You don't eat meat out of a need for survival, you eat it out of preference or convenience. The nutrients you get from meat can be obtained elsewhere in a balanced diet, but many people cannot be bothered to accommodate a meat-free diet because meat is an admittedly easier way to get a lot of important nutrients all in one food type. Lentils and nuts and all that sort of thing are probably available in Azeroth too, so someone on Azeroth who criticises the blood elves for draining magic from livestock but eats meat themselves is a hypocrite.

A natural and balanced diet without meat does not offer you all the nutrients that exist in the animal protein. For a vegetarian diet even you need to consume some nutritional supplements that provide you with the necessary substances to make certain physiological processes work, and many of these supplements are expensive and inaccessible to many people who want to lead a vegetarian lifestyle, forcing them to follow an incomplete diet.
Again, satisfying an addiction is not the same as eating meat.

I am getting it and I'm telling you that I wager most high elves in Dalaran and Stormwind and other Alliance lands had probably been there for a considerable amount of time and were probably very at home. Plus, their difficulties in assimilating or whatever could not possibly compare to the horrific fight for survival the blood elves faced every day in the wake of Arthas' attack. Not to mention the grief. 90% of everyone you know and love gone.

Both groups suffered the same losses. High elves besides losing their family and friends also lost their home and their culture. You have to study the life of an immigrant to understand what has to happen to adapt to a life outside your home, even when this home is involved in a war.

[Thalassian Bob]

A natural and balanced diet without meat does not offer you all the nutrients that exist in the animal protein. For a vegetarian diet even you need to consume some nutritional supplements that provide you with the necessary substances to make certain physiological processes work, and many of these supplements are expensive and inaccessible to many people who want to lead a vegetarian lifestyle, forcing them to follow an incomplete diet.
Again, satisfying an addiction is not the same as eating meat.


Both groups suffered the same losses. High elves besides losing their family and friends also lost their home and their culture. You have to study the life of an immigrant to understand what has to happen to adapt to a life outside your home, even when this home is involved in a war.

It's a myth that vegetarians need supplements. Many take them because they don't want to bother with proper dietary planning, but you can get all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals you need from a meat-free diet. So, I maintain carnivorous critics of blood elves are hypocrites.

Of course, being an immigrant can be tough, but it is a choice (unless one is a refugee) and the high elves who were not exiled chose to leave Quel'Thalas and then stay away when Kael'thas called for reconquest and reclamation. Of course, the high elves may have lost friends and family members in the destruction of Quel'Thalas, but they did not lose their homes on top of it and the threat of death every day and they also chose not to return to the surviving family members they may have had in Quel'Thalas and help them rebuild their lives. They stayed were they were safe and relatively comfortable. Considering their choice not to return home to help rebuild, they probably weren't very close to those Thalassians still in Quel'Thalas.

The Kirin Tor high elves will have probably suffered when Archimonde attacked Dalaran, I'll give them that. But, they also chose to remain loyal to Dalaran when Garithos tried to murder the prince of their people in the Kirin Tor's capital city, so my sympathy for them is diminished.

[Ignaz]

It's a myth that vegetarians need supplements. Many take them because they don't want to bother with proper dietary planning, but you can get all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals you need from a meat-free diet. So, I maintain carnivorous critics of blood elves are hypocrites.

A vegetarian / vegan person with the correct natural diet can meet the requirements of some essential amino acids and especially vitamins, but there are a number of substances that contain animal products such as meat, eggs and dairy products that are essential for body development and Cellular physiological function and they can only be found in nutritional supplements.
According to The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (2016)
e.g. Usually, a vegetarian / vegan person has a deficiency of vitamin b12 (this predisposes them to suffer from sickle cell anemia) and ALA and DHA (a type of Omega 3 and 6) that are essential for the development of the nervous system.

Of course, being an immigrant can be tough, but it is a choice (unless one is a refugee) and the high elves who were not exiled chose to leave Quel'Thalas and then stay away when Kael'thas called for reconquest and reclamation. Of course, the high elves may have lost friends and family members in the destruction of Quel'Thalas, but they did not lose their homes on top of it and the threat of death every day and they also chose not to return to the surviving family members they may have had in Quel'Thalas and help them rebuild their lives. They stayed were they were safe and relatively comfortable. Considering their choice not to return home to help rebuild, they probably weren't very close to those Thalassians still in Quel'Thalas.

The Kirin Tor high elves will have probably suffered when Archimonde attacked Dalaran, I'll give them that. But, they also chose to remain loyal to Dalaran when Garithos tried to murder the prince of their people in the Kirin Tor's capital city, so my sympathy for them is diminished.

None had a choice, if they did not follow the practices established by Kael'thas they had to leave their home, this in order to create order and not a divisions or disturbances in Silvermoon.
It is practically a dictatorial mandate

[Temp1on2]

A vegetarian / vegan person with the correct natural diet can meet the requirements of some essential amino acids and especially vitamins, but there are a number of substances that contain animal products such as meat, eggs and dairy products that are essential for body development and Cellular physiological function and they can only be found in nutritional supplements.

It's a myth that vegetarians need supplements. Many take them because they don't want to bother with proper dietary planning, but you can get all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals you need from a meat-free diet. So, I maintain carnivorous critics of blood elves are hypocrites.

I'm really unsure who is arguing what here to be honest. One is arguing that humans (aren't we talking about elves?) do need to eat meat to get necessary nutrients, the other is saying because meat is a choice any High Elf that eats meat is a hypocrite?

Isn't the point that all living beings need to consume other living beings (even plants are alive) in order to survive - why quibble over which living beings, or the manner by which you extract the energy, unless it is unnecessarily cruel?

[Ignaz]

I'm really unsure who is arguing what here to be honest. One is arguing that humans (aren't we talking about elves?) do need to eat meat to get necessary nutrients, the other is saying because meat is a choice any High Elf that eats meat is a hypocrite?

Isn't the point that all living beings need to consume other living beings (even plants are alive) in order to survive - why quibble over which living beings, or the manner by which you extract the energy, unless it is unnecessarily cruel?

My point is that you can be a vegetarian if you want, but satisfying an addiction through the consumption of the vital force of another being is morally wrong.

[Temp1on2]

My point is that you can be a vegetarian if you want, but satisfying an addiction through the consumption of the vital force of another being is morally wrong.

Oh I see.

But then the argument still stands, eating any living being for anything other than purely for substance is morally wrong.

[Ignaz]

Oh I see.

But then the argument still stands, eating any living being for anything other than purely for substance is morally wrong.

that's why there is a sin called gluttony, I think…

In that context, almost every living being consumes another living being; the difference with humans is that we build a moral thought that allows us to live healthy in society. Then our moral dictates that: eating for pleasure is not the same as eating with pleasure.

How can I be a hypocrite? e.g. if I condemn the consumption of meat for indiscriminate hunting or the disproportionate raising of cattle for trade in the market; Then I buy that animal product in a supermarket and consume it with pleasure.

If high elves condemned the practice of stripping a living being of his vital force to satisfy an addiction and then; when no one is watching them, they consume the vital force of another living being to satisfy their addiction, that would make them hypocritical

[Strippling]

that's why there is a sin called gluttony, I think…

In that context, almost every living being consumes another living being; the difference with humans is that we build a moral thought that allows us to live healthy in society. Then our moral dictates that: eating for pleasure is not the same as eating with pleasure.

How can I be a hypocrite? e.g. if I condemn the consumption of meat for indiscriminate hunting or the disproportionate raising of cattle for trade in the market; Then I buy that animal product in a supermarket and consume it with pleasure.

If high elves condemned the practice of stripping a living being of his vital force to satisfy an addiction and then; when no one is watching them, they consume the vital force of another living being to satisfy their addiction, that would make them hypocritical

You do realize that there are high elf NPCs that send you on quests to kill animals, none of which (to my knowledge) are quests to gather food for sustenance. I recall one quest where you're asked to kill a bear and bring his head back (leaving behind the rest of the bear body

100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde.

I previously pointed out Thalo'thas Brightsun who is a high elf NPC in ratchet who gives Horde players a quest to kill Alliance sailors.

I forgot to point out Gilthares Firebough, a high elf NPC in the Barrens who is friendly to the Horde and neutral to Alliance.

There's also Gilveradin Sunchaser, a high elf NPC in the Hinterlands who does not care about the ALliance and is on good terms with a pair of orcs from Orgrimmar. He also gives quests exclusively to Horde players.

These are just a few high elf NPCs who are not on the Alliance, and either have a better relationship with the Horde or are outright hostile toward the Alliance.

[Ignaz]

You do realize that there are high elf NPCs that send you on quests to kill animals, none of which (to my knowledge) are quests to gather food for sustenance. I recall one quest where you're asked to kill a bear and bring his head back (leaving behind the rest of the bear body

Why do they send you to kill that bear?

[Temp1on2]

that's why there is a sin called gluttony, I think…

In that context, almost every living being consumes another living being; the difference with humans is that we build a moral thought that allows us to live healthy in society. Then our moral dictates that: eating for pleasure is not the same as eating with pleasure.

How can I be a hypocrite? e.g. if I condemn the consumption of meat for indiscriminate hunting or the disproportionate raising of cattle for trade in the market; Then I buy that animal product in a supermarket and consume it with pleasure.

If high elves condemned the practice of stripping a living being of his vital force to satisfy an addiction and then; when no one is watching them, they consume the vital force of another living being to satisfy their addiction, that would make them hypocritical

I'm not saying you're a hypocrite.

I'm pointing out the logical inconsistency of what you're saying.

If your argument that Blood Elves were "morally wrong" for sating an addition (indulging in an unnecessary activity that leads to the death of living beings) then why does this same standard not extend to all other such activities.

The vast majority of food (I'm not just talking about meat) consumed isn't necessary to sustain life, it is overwhelmingly to indulge personal, and unnecessary, pleasure - not unlike an addiction (the only difference is arguably the anti-social behaviour that arises from additions).

If one is "morally wrong" then so is the other. You'd have an argument if all High Elves lived an extremely frugal life that rejected all excesses, but they don't.

[Strippling]

Why do they send you to kill that bear?

Been a while, but from memory the bear is hanging around so you're sent to kill him. Not the most "moral" choice if the bear was living there before the high elf was.