Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Doffen]

All Void Elves are not factually Blood Elves, because Alleria was never a Blood Elf and yet she is a Void Elf, in fact she is the Void Elf racial leader.

All Void Elves that are factually Blood Elves, and the leader being the High Elf doesn't change that. It's like saying but not all Lightforged are Draeneis, tho its only one whos not, the leader, Turalyon. This just here proves you are just being disingenuous. So far every Void Elf we see ingame are former Blood Elves, except the leader, Alleria. Is that better then? Nothing proves that there are Alliance High Elves being Void Elves. So for you to use that statement is being hypocritical, because when you argue with others you always say that only canon lore is proving anything.

3a.) Related to the previous point, Moorgard (when asked where do Void Elf numbers come from) said that other elves have heard about them, are seeking them out, and are undergoing a similar process.

There is no proof of this, so stop using this as fact. Not even what he said.

You are also not approaching this topic from unbiased viewpoint. You want the Void Elves to be unable to reproduce so that they cannot convert High Elven exiles. If they cannot convert High Elven exiles, you can argue that the 'pure Alliance High Elves' can still be added to the game as a distinct grouping. In other words, you have motive in attempting to say the Void Elves cannot do this.

Yeah, you don't understand what I want. I am not advocating for Alliance High Elves being playable, I am advocating for more playable options. In other words, you have no idea what I want, because you just like to ignore what I actually write. I am actually coming here with an unbiased viewpoint, you however do not. That you even dare to say that to other people is just embarrassing.

[Obelisk Kai]

That could very well be the case. They saw in others what they loathed to see in themselves.

And, yeah, the likes of mana wyrms always struck me as being like the pigeons of Quel'Thalas, rather than everyone suddenly taking to doing the equivalent of killing their pet cats or something!

I would agree with this sentiment. I simply cannot see how killing vermin under extreme circumstances could lead to a schism. It had to have been the act itself that was the point of contention, the pragmatism of the majority population who couldn't give a toss about an Alliance which they felt had betrayed them versus the idealism of a few Farstriders (who spent most of their time outside Quel'thalas anyway) who had complained for years about Quel'thalas's attitude. It is easy to imagine that in the heated arguments prior to the exile, these renegade Farstriders might have insinuated that Quel'thalas' predicament was the direct result of the isolationist and aloof attitude they had held towards the Alliance before the fall.

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All Void Elves that are factually Blood Elves, and the leader being the High Elf doesn't change that.

Alleria is not a traditional High Elf, she is a Void Elf who was a High Elf and was never a Blood Elf. Her existence proves your blanket statement wrong.

It's like saying but not all Lightforged are Draeneis, tho its only one whos not, the leader, Turalyon. This just here proves you are just being disingenuous.

Every lightforged bar two are Draenei. Turalyon is a lightforged Human. Lothraxion is a lightforged Nathrezim. However, your comparison fails because a high elf exile is not a distinct race as Draenei are, they are a political faction of thalassian elves. All Void Elves are thalassian elves. The vast majority likely are former Blood Elves simply because we know the number of High Elven exiles are incredibly low. But a Void Elf player can chose an origin of a High Elven exile in their own mind and nothing in game contradicts that.

So far every Void Elf we see ingame are former Blood Elves, except the leader, Alleria. Is that better then? Nothing proves that there are Alliance High Elves being Void Elves. So for you to use that statement is being hypocritical, because when you argue with others you always say that only canon lore is proving anything.

And developer comment. Moorgard's comment is pretty clear and straightforward to me, he answered the question of 'where do void elf numbers come from?' with 'others seek them out to undergo the same process'. In fact, the only way his answer makes sense in regards to the question asked is that interpretation. The other interpretation, which is nonsensical, is that he didn't answer the question but instead segued into other elves wandering over to learn the ways and void and undergo a similar process that would do nothing at all.

The contortions pro High Elfers go through to deny that he said what he said are a familiar tactic. The same thing happened with Ion ruling out playable Alliance High Elven exiles at Blizzcon 2017, an attempt to parse his words in an attempt to turn his no into a maybe. Which as I recall, the pro High Elf community actually managed to convince themselves of and a position they held onto until the April 2018 Q and A when he restated the position with added snark.

There is no proof of this, so stop using this as fact. Not even what he said.

He literally said exactly that.

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

Yeah, you don't understand what I want. I am not advocating for Alliance High Elves being playable, I am advocating for more playable options. In other words, you have no idea what I want, because you just like to ignore what I actually write. I am actually coming here with an unbiased viewpoint, you however do not. That you even dare to say that to other people is just embarrassing.

If you argue in favour of playable Alliance High Elves, then I will debate you as a pro High Elfer. I'm not interested if you justify to yourself that you are an unbiased viewpoint or however you want to phrase it. You are most certainly non unbiased on this topic.

[Thalassian Bob]

I would agree with this sentiment. I simply cannot see how killing vermin under extreme circumstances could lead to a schism. It had to have been the act itself that was the point of contention, the pragmatism of the majority population who couldn't give a toss about an Alliance which they felt had betrayed them versus the idealism of a few Farstriders (who spent most of their time outside Quel'thalas anyway) who had complained for years about Quel'thalas's attitude. It is easy to imagine that in the heated arguments prior to the exile, these renegade Farstriders might have insinuated that Quel'thalas' predicament was the direct result of the isolationist and aloof attitude they had held towards the Alliance before the fall.

Mm. Quite probable! And nobody likes a Captain Hindsight! ^^

[Obelisk Kai]

Mm. Quite probable! And nobody likes a Captain Hindsight! ^^

Yep but the actual specifics of the schism are subject to speculation as they weren't thoroughly explained. Not that it matters now of course. The restoration of the Sunwell led the Blood/High Elves back to the status quo ante, with the addiction permanently sated. What is left now is the rancour of the divide and the political differences that now define that divide.

[Doffen]

Alleria is not a traditional High Elf, she is a Void Elf who was a High Elf and was never a Blood Elf. Her existence proves your blanket statement wrong.

Every Void Elf in the game is former Blood Elf. Alleria is their leader. But every Void Elf, both playable and npc's came with Magister Umbric. I like how you try to shift goalpost though. So my statement is correct, no matter how much you want to RP.

Every lightforged bar two are Draenei. Turalyon is a lightforged Human. Lothraxion is a lightforged Nathrezim. However, your comparison fails because a high elf exile is not a distinct race as Draenei are, they are a political faction of thalassian elves. All Void Elves are thalassian elves. The vast majority likely are former Blood Elves simply because we know the number of High Elven exiles are incredibly low. But a Void Elf player can chose an origin of a High Elven exile in their own mind and nothing in game contradicts that.

Yeah, like always, a comparison that is just the same as Alleria/Void Elf is something different. This is why you are just being disingenuous. It's exactly the same. And it's not High Elves of the Alliance we are talking about here, it's Blood Elves. There are nothing that says that Void Elves are former High Elves. So you try to make my comparison void(pun). Everything in the game contradicts that a void elf is former Alliance High Elf. Magister Umbric says that himself. People can RP as much as they want. Doesn't make it correct.

And developer comment. Moorgard's comment is pretty clear and straightforward to me, he answered the question of 'where do void elf numbers come from?' with 'others seek them out to undergo the same process'. In fact, the only way his answer makes sense in regards to the question asked is that interpretation. The other interpretation, which is nonsensical, is that he didn't answer the question but instead segued into other elves wandering over to learn the ways and void and undergo a similar process that would do nothing at all.

Yeah for you, big surprise. I just find it funny that you can take vague statements with no answers as truth, while when someone else comes with something as vague, you just ignore it because it's "not canon". He didn't answer the question whether Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Do you know the actual question?

"If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

So far it doesn't say who, and in game says Void Elves are only former Blood Elves. The numbers probably comes from more Blood Elves that miss the old Alliance. It's they who delve into magical power afterall, High Elves stay away from that sort of thing. So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves, and the game reflects that.

He literally said exactly that.

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

Literally not what he said. I mean, how do you justify your interpretations? We know how you misunderstood what Ion said back in 2017, so its the same here? Until said or shown otherwise, only Blood Elves have turned into Void Elves. But that can change, and like I said before, I'll quote you and say "finally, Alliance High Elves now also are part of the Void Elves".

If you argue in favour of playable Alliance High Elves, then I will debate you as a pro High Elfer. I'm not interested if you justify to yourself that you are an unbiased viewpoint or however you want to phrase it. You are most certainly non unbiased on this topic.

And for some reason you seem eager to pinpoint me into something I am not. Which is kinda strange seeing how you say you are not interested.

I am, unlike you, unbiased because Blood Elves and Void Elves are better than pure High Elves. And we can play as both now. And I don't participate to this thread as much as I did. But when you come with incorrect, false info I need to point out.

[Thalassian Bob]

Yep but the actual specifics of the schism are subject to speculation as they weren't thoroughly explained. Not that it matters now of course. The restoration of the Sunwell led the Blood/High Elves back to the status quo ante, with the addiction permanently sated. What is left now is the rancour of the divide and the political differences that now define that divide.

Yeah, there's probably as many reasons as there are Quel'dorei stragglers, just like how in the real world people emigrate for a myriad of reasons.

Also, relevant to our prior discussion of void elf malleability in the context of Umbric's spiel:


(Just spoke to Alleria after a transmog run)

If the Alliance are going to call into question the loyalties of a hero immortalised in marble at the gates of SW, what chance does a SC or Kirin Tor Quel'dorei grunt who decides to go void have?!

[Doffen]

Alleria is not a traditional High Elf, she is a Void Elf who was a High Elf and was never a Blood Elf.

All Void Elves are thalassian elves. The vast majority likely are former Blood Elves simply because we know the number of High Elven exiles are incredibly low. But a Void Elf player can chose an origin of a High Elven exile in their own mind and nothing in game contradicts that.

So, I want to go further into this. Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

[Obelisk Kai]

Yeah, there's probably as many reasons as there are Quel'dorei stragglers, just like how in the real world people emigrate for a myriad of reasons.

Also, relevant to our prior discussion of void elf malleability in the context of Umbric's spiel:


(Just spoke to Alleria after a transmog run)

If the Alliance are going to call into question the loyalties of a hero immortalised in marble at the gates of SW, what chance does a SC or Kirin Tor Quel'dorei grunt who decides to go void have?!

Every little thing found just reinforces that you are free to roleplay your Void Elf however you want.

As one of the first transformed by the abortive ritual? You can do that. As a high elf of the silver covenant tired of the ambiguity and who craves something more? You can do that. As a Blood Elf whose interest in the void finally overcomes whatever loyalty they have to their people and who will submit to the Alliance in order to wield these magics? You can do that.

Absolutely nothing in the game prohibits a Void Elf player from playing their character the way they want to. With one proviso, that the character actually is a Void Elf who hears the whispers and who would be mistrusted by the Alliance at large either because they are messing with these forbidden magics or because, as a thalassian elf, their loyalties are suspect.

[Doffen]

Every little thing found just reinforces that you are free to roleplay your Void Elf however you want.

As one of the first transformed by the abortive ritual? You can do that. As a high elf of the silver covenant tired of the ambiguity and who craves something more? You can do that. As a Blood Elf whose interest in the void finally overcomes whatever loyalty they have to their people and who will submit to the Alliance in order to wield these magics? You can do that.

Absolutely nothing in the game prohibits a Void Elf player from playing their character the way they want to. With one proviso, that the character actually is a Void Elf who hears the whispers and who would be mistrusted by the Alliance at large either because they are messing with these forbidden magics or because, as a thalassian elf, their loyalties are suspect.

My Void Elves RP as being trusted by the Alliance. Except one rogue who is undercover for Silvermoon.

Glad blizzard didn't put any rules how people can RP, even though some random forum-user try to.

[Thalassian Bob]

Every little thing found just reinforces that you are free to roleplay your Void Elf however you want.

As one of the first transformed by the abortive ritual? You can do that. As a high elf of the silver covenant tired of the ambiguity and who craves something more? You can do that. As a Blood Elf whose interest in the void finally overcomes whatever loyalty they have to their people and who will submit to the Alliance in order to wield these magics? You can do that.

Absolutely nothing in the game prohibits a Void Elf player from playing their character the way they want to. With one proviso, that the character actually is a Void Elf who hears the whispers and who would be mistrusted by the Alliance at large either because they are messing with these forbidden magics or because, as a thalassian elf, their loyalties are suspect.

Mhmm. Which is why I'd like more people to get on board with Ren'dorei likely being the only playable Thalassians on the Alliance for the foreseeable future. Not just to reduce the boot indentations on this dead horse discussion, but for player's own enjoyment of the game! Granted, I think it'd be nice to have a few more non-Skrillex or tentacled hairstyles and a wider array of hair colours in the customisation options (which will hopefully come in a later Shadowlands patch (maybe with some magister rune tattoos)), but high elf fans refusing to embrace the Ren'dorei as a potential evolution of the group they are so impassioned about is just gonna cause grief without resolution for probably quite a while to come. Maybe it never will.

I can totally sympathise with the argument of people saying they asked for vanilla ice cream but they got a blackcurrant sorbet and are expected to enjoy it just as much as the thing they actually requested, but I think people are gonna need to try and accept the compromise.

I think Blizzard could please a considerable number of high elf fans (though not all) and get some of the heat off their backs by just making one of the void elf NPCs in Shadowlands someone like Summoner Nolric, a Kirin Tor magister or one of the named Silver Covenant members from the Argent Tournament or something. Then people could see a void elf can canonically be a Thalassian who never went Horde and I reckon a fair few people from this thread would be more into the purple flavoured compromise.

[Obelisk Kai]

Every Void Elf in the game is former Blood Elf. Alleria is their leader. But every Void Elf, both playable and npc's came with Magister Umbric. I like how you try to shift goalpost though. So my statement is correct, no matter how much you want to RP.

No, you cannot confirm that. As stated Void Elf numbers in game do not match the paltry few who were present at the initial transformation. Were that the case, the suicide mission undertaken in Nazmir would already have wiped that group out several times over. The mismatch between the numbers depicted in game and Umbric's initial group was the source of the question posed to Moorgard.

And your statement is incorrect, as Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner (also the first Void Elf) was never a Blood Elf, and yet is a Void Elf.

Yeah, like always, a comparison that is just the same as Alleria/Void Elf is something different. This is why you are just being disingenuous. It's exactly the same. And it's not High Elves of the Alliance we are talking about here, it's Blood Elves. There are nothing that says that Void Elves are former High Elves. So you try to make my comparison void(pun). Everything in the game contradicts that a void elf is former Alliance High Elf. Magister Umbric says that himself. People can RP as much as they want. Doesn't make it correct.

There is nothing that says none of the Void Elves are former High Elf exiles. So long as wriggle room exists, a person can legitimately roleplay their Void Elf as a former High Elf. The key question is whether the process that created the first Void Elves is replicable. Everything indicates that the process is indeed replicable, from Void Elf numbers being greater than the initial group, to Void Elves converting Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs demonstrating the process, to the presence of High Elf and Blood Elf NPCs in Telogrus learning the ways of the void in preparation for their transformation, to Moorgard's answer. So long as the process is replicable, there is no reason high elven exiles cannot avail themselves of the process.

And as discussed above, Magister Umbric's answers can be read differently depending on how you yourself view your character's origin. Nothing he says ties the player to that first group transformed.

Yeah for you, big surprise. I just find it funny that you can take vague statements with no answers as truth, while when someone else comes with something as vague, you just ignore it because it's "not canon". He didn't answer the question whether Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Do you know the actual question?

"If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

So far it doesn't say who, and in game says Void Elves are only former Blood Elves. The numbers probably comes from more Blood Elves that miss the old Alliance. It's they who delve into magical power afterall, High Elves stay away from that sort of thing. So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves, and the game reflects that.

I would suggest that most people reading that would have taken the following approach, that the interviewer asks a question regarding the numbers and that Moorgard answered that question...that the Void Elves can turn those who seek them out into Void Elves. It is only those who wish for playable 'pure' high elves who argue against this, as they wish to maintain that group as a separate entity that can be made playable in the future. As that is almost certainly never going to happen, saying Void Elves cannot turn High Elven exiles has as much purpose as arguing against a blue eyed option for Blood Elves, in that limiting options for races that already playable for the sake of a group that almost certainly will never be playable is pointless and stupid.

Your answer here also seemingly concedes the fundamental point that he process is replicable. 'So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves'. That is all that matters. Once you concede that, then the possibility exists that a High Elf exile would also hear the call of the void. I mean, your statement that High Elven exiles 'stay away from that sort of thing' is just plain wrong. There are High Elven wayfarers inside Telogrus right now who are very much into that sort of thing. You can go look yourself. This is sounding increasingly like you possess a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are and your arguing on behalf of that mental image, not what is actually in the game.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=132671/high-elf-wayfarer



These guys existing and doing what they are doing demolishes your counter-point. You are probably right thatmost Void Elves are former Blood Elves. Given that the Blood Elf population dwarfs the population of the High Elf exiles, there are far more Blood Elves to draw upon.

What matters is that the Void Elf player can choose to roleplay as a former High Elf exile who has embraced the void. From what you have said above in conceding the process is replicable, and given your protestations that the game insists all playable Void Elves are former Blood Elves don't stand up to scrutiny, it should be clear that the possibility exists and is consistent with the lore of the game.

Literally not what he said. I mean, how do you justify your interpretations? We know how you misunderstood what Ion said back in 2017, so its the same here? Until said or shown otherwise, only Blood Elves have turned into Void Elves. But that can change, and like I said before, I'll quote you and say "finally, Alliance High Elves now also are part of the Void Elves".

Yes, I was clearly the one who misunderstood what Ion said in 2017. This is why he restated what he said seven months later with considerably added snark in order to drive the point home. The pro High Elf community has form in trying to discount or twist developer commentary in such a way that they can convince themselves that what was said was not said.

Moorgard was asked where the numbers came from. He confirmed that their elves seeking the Void Elves out to join their ranks as that is the only possible interpretation of the answer that makes sense. The pro High Elf interpretation is that he got confused midway and ended up answering a different question entirely that had no relation to population numbers.

So I justify my interpretations in that I take what the developers say at face value. It is the other side of this argument that seeks to twist, distort and manipulate those answers in order to discount them.

And for some reason you seem eager to pinpoint me into something I am not. Which is kinda strange seeing how you say you are not interested.

I am, unlike you, unbiased because Blood Elves and Void Elves are better than pure High Elves. And we can play as both now. And I don't participate to this thread as much as I did. But when you come with incorrect, false info I need to point out.

You are arguing the pro High Elf point of view. If you argue the pro High Elf point of view, I will counter that. Particularly when your point of view is based on a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are, rather than what they actually are. I believe my information is only incorrect and false in so far that it does not agree with your own personal perception of this group, rather than what they actually are, as I demonstrated above.

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My Void Elves RP as being trusted by the Alliance. Except one rogue who is undercover for Silvermoon.

Glad blizzard didn't put any rules how people can RP, even though some random forum-user try to.

If your Void Elf roleplays as being trusted by the Alliance, I would roleplay back that that is the voices maddening your character so that they are oblivious to the furtive looks and hostile stares.

In fact, any Void Elf roleplay that is incompatible with the story can be explained by that Void Elf going mad and not seeing reality as it really is.

[Ielenia]

Nothing in Umbric's dialogue can be read as binding the player to an exclusively Horde origin.

The entire second paragraph, about trust, binds the VE player as being a blood elf. A high elf would not fear "not having the trust of the Alliance" considering they've been allies for the longest time, and the entire shpiel about "Silvermoon still being in Horde control" would be meaningless since Silvermoon hasn't been the home of high elves for many, many years.

A high elf would not be concerned for any of those things, but a blood elf would.

[Obelisk Kai]

Mhmm. Which is why I'd like more people to get on board with Ren'dorei likely being the only playable Thalassians on the Alliance for the foreseeable future. Not just to reduce the boot indentations on this dead horse discussion, but for player's own enjoyment of the game! Granted, I think it'd be nice to have a few more non-Skrillex or tentacled hairstyles and a wider array of hair colours in the customisation options (which will hopefully come in a later Shadowlands patch (maybe with some magister rune tattoos)), but high elf fans refusing to embrace the Ren'dorei as a potential evolution of the group they are so impassioned about is just gonna cause grief without resolution for probably quite a while to come. Maybe it never will.

I can totally sympathise with the argument of people saying they asked for vanilla ice cream but they got a blackcurrant sorbet and are expected to enjoy it just as much as the thing they actually requested, but I think people are gonna need to try and accept the compromise.

I think Blizzard could please a considerable number of high elf fans (though not all) and get some of the heat off their backs by just making one of the void elf NPCs in Shadowlands someone like Summoner Nolric, a Kirin Tor magister or one of the named Silver Covenant members from the Argent Tournament or something. Then people could see a void elf can canonically be a Thalassian who never went Horde and I reckon a fair few people from this thread would be more into the purple flavoured compromise.

I guess there is no harm in seeking a canonical representation of a former high elf exile who has become a Void Elf, although Alleria is exactly that and she is their racial leader.

In regards to the fandom, there is no plausible way to please everyone. While the pro High Elf community likes to portray themselves as having a simple request and Blizzard has gone out of their way to spite them, that community has never properly engaged with the objections to their goals or the impact on other players.

The Blood Elves are the most popular race in the Horde faction. One of the reasons the Blood Elves were added to the Horde in the first place was to increase the base Horde population, something they have been wildly successful in doing. Some Alliance players covet the most popular race within the Horde and desire an unaltered duplicate of that race. It seems counter-intuitive to think that the expression of a demand for a race that was specifically placed on the Horde to increase the Horde's popularity is going to be successful. Alliance players coveting a Horde race so openly means that the placement of the Blood Elves within the Horde was a success.

More importantly, Blood Elves form a core part of the Horde faction. It is as unfair to the Horde to ask for unaltered thalassian elves as it would be for Horde players to demand Draenei or Worgen because they like the look of them. We play a two faction game, and ensuring those two factions remain as distinct as possible is good for Blizzard in that it allows them to preserve the valuable Horde and Alliance brands but also good for players in fostering a them versus us attitude. So long as factions are important, the integrity of those factions is important. And the High Elf exiles are simply too close thematically and aesthetically to Blood Elves to be added without issue, which is what Blizzard discovered.

I do not like Void Elves. I would have preferred that the Blood Elf model remain Horde exclusive. However, the compromise they represent is adequate. The Alliance players got the model, but one that was profoundly aesthetically and thematically different from the Blood Elves with enough space to grow into their own thing.
And the game is written in such a way that it is possible to roleplay your Void Elf as a former High Elf exile, ensuring anyone who does claim it is their connection to that group that drives them can finally play one should they themselves decide to do it.

Blizzard knew what they were doing with Void Elves. They created them for several reasons. And they also knew that once they created Void Elves, they were closing the door on the Alliance getting unaltered High Elven exiles. Because while we talk about Blood Elves being impacted by the possibility here, it is also true that Void Elves would similarly be impacted. If Blood Elves on the Horde were a barrier before, the Void Elves are a second barrier that is as equally sturdy, at a stroke doubling the reasons Blizzard has for not adding playable Alliance High Elves.

There is no plausible way to please everyone. Void Elves, the most successful Allied race, have pleased enough. That a few hundred remain upset is regrettable. But those playing Blood Elves AND Void Elves now should not be made to suffer for those who have never reconciled themselves to the modern wow status quo.

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The entire second paragraph, about trust, binds the VE player as being a blood elf. A high elf would not fear "not having the trust of the Alliance" considering they've been allies for the longest time, and the entire shpiel about "Silvermoon still being in Horde control" would be meaningless since Silvermoon hasn't been the home of high elves for many, many years.

A high elf would not be concerned for any of those things, but a blood elf would.

Warcraft encyclopedia specifically states High Elves were mistrusted by many within the Alliance.

And any High Elf who embraced the Void to become a Void Elf would instantly earn their ire given the reverence for the light.

Silvermoon being part of the Horde merely means all High Elves are under a vague suspicion because the vast majority of high elves live in Silvermoon, an enemy state.

So nothing there binds the VE player as a Blood Elf. There is sufficient wiggle room to allow a different interpretation.

[Doffen]

No, you cannot confirm that. As stated Void Elf numbers in game do not match the paltry few who were present at the initial transformation. Were that the case, the suicide mission undertaken in Nazmir would already have wiped that group out several times over. The mismatch between the numbers depicted in game and Umbric's initial group was the source of the question posed to Moorgard.

I can confirm that because that is confirmed in game. You only speculate, which is something else entirely. Their numbers comes from Blood Elves, until said or proven other wise.

And your statement is incorrect, as Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner (also the first Void Elf) was never a Blood Elf, and yet is a Void Elf.

Not for the Void Elves we are interacting with, everyone bar Alleria are former Blood Elves, stated by in game sources. Nothing else contradict that. So my statement stands, all Void Elves, playable or not are former Blood Elves. Bar Alleria. No one else. You are only speculating I'm afraid. Nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing that says none of the Void Elves are former High Elf exiles. So long as wriggle room exists, a person can legitimately roleplay their Void Elf as a former High Elf. The key question is whether the process that created the first Void Elves is replicable. Everything indicates that the process is indeed replicable, from Void Elf numbers being greater than the initial group, to Void Elves converting Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs demonstrating the process, to the presence of High Elf and Blood Elf NPCs in Telogrus learning the ways of the void in preparation for their transformation, to Moorgard's answer. So long as the process is replicable, there is no reason high elven exiles cannot avail themselves of the process.

Yes, but you are only speculating that Alliance High Elves turns into Blood Elves. How many times do we have to repeat that it's not happened, nor is it confirmed. So keep on speculating.

And as discussed above, Magister Umbric's answers can be read differently depending on how you yourself view your character's origin. Nothing he says ties the player to that first group transformed.

I know how you interpret things, with a very biased viewpoint. Which is proven further down here with the infamous statement made in 2017. Lots of twisting with words, we all know that.

I would suggest that most people reading that would have taken the following approach, that the interviewer asks a question regarding the numbers and that Moorgard answered that question...that the Void Elves can turn those who seek them out into Void Elves. It is only those who wish for playable 'pure' high elves who argue against this, as they wish to maintain that group as a separate entity that can be made playable in the future. As that is almost certainly never going to happen, saying Void Elves cannot turn High Elven exiles has as much purpose as arguing against a blue eyed option for Blood Elves, in that limiting options for races that already playable for the sake of a group that almost certainly will never be playable is pointless and stupid.

Your answer here also seemingly concedes the fundamental point that he process is replicable. 'So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves'. That is all that matters. Once you concede that, then the possibility exists that a High Elf exile would also hear the call of the void. I mean, your statement that High Elven exiles 'stay away from that sort of thing' is just plain wrong. There are High Elven wayfarers inside Telogrus right now who are very much into that sort of thing. You can go look yourself. This is sounding increasingly like you possess a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are and your arguing on behalf of that mental image, not what is actually in the game.

I pointed that out yesterday actually, but no surprise you ignored that. They are named Wayfarer's for a good reason. It can be anyone. Which is the point in all of this. These wayfaring High Elves could have come from anywhere. Even the Alliance, but so far none of the Void Elves we interact with are former Alliance High Elves.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=132671/high-elf-wayfarer



These guys existing and doing what they are doing demolishes your counter-point. You are probably right thatmost Void Elves are former Blood Elves. Given that the Blood Elf population dwarfs the population of the High Elf exiles, there are far more Blood Elves to draw upon.

What matters is that the Void Elf player can choose to roleplay as a former High Elf exile who has embraced the void. From what you have said above in conceding the process is replicable, and given your protestations that the game insists all playable Void Elves are former Blood Elves don't stand up to scrutiny, it should be clear that the possibility exists and is consistent with the lore of the game.

But it doesn't? You can rp as much as you want like I said. But it's still not any Void Elf we see ingame that are former Alliance High Elves. Why you ignore this fact, I don't know. Or yes, I do know.

Yes, I was clearly the one who misunderstood what Ion said in 2017. This is why he restated what he said seven months later with considerably added snark in order to drive the point home. The pro High Elf community has form in trying to discount or twist developer commentary in such a way that they can convince themselves that what was said was not said.

Seeing how you take something like both Moogard and Magister Umbric and turn into something that fits your agenda is not surprising that you still think you were correct back then. Remember the "also a flavor" part, saying that Blood Elves also are a flavor of High Elves. Which you turned into something that wasn't. The only thing he restated was that High Elves are playable in the Horde.

Moorgard was asked where the numbers came from. He confirmed that their elves seeking the Void Elves out to join their ranks as that is the only possible interpretation of the answer that makes sense. The pro High Elf interpretation is that he got confused midway and ended up answering a different question entirely that had no relation to population numbers.

So I justify my interpretations in that I take what the developers say at face value. It is the other side of this argument that seeks to twist, distort and manipulate those answers in order to discount them.

I like how you turned you, into the other side. It's mostly one here that twist, distort and manipulate those answers, and it's not me, and it's not the others.

You are arguing the pro High Elf point of view. If you argue the pro High Elf point of view, I will counter that. Particularly when your point of view is based on a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are, rather than what they actually are. I believe my information is only incorrect and false in so far that it does not agree with your own personal perception of this group, rather than what they actually are, as I demonstrated above.

Yes, I know you like to take your false and speculative information into something that works for your perception on how this all works.

If your Void Elf roleplays as being trusted by the Alliance, I would roleplay back that that is the voices maddening your character so that they are oblivious to the furtive looks and hostile stares.

In fact, any Void Elf roleplay that is incompatible with the story can be explained by that Void Elf going mad and not seeing reality as it really is.

Not at all, you can RP as much as you want. It's weird for someone to try to tell others how to RP, it's just strange man.


So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

[Thalassian Bob]

I guess there is no harm in seeking a canonical representation of a former high elf exile who has become a Void Elf, although Alleria is exactly that and she is their racial leader.

In regards to the fandom, there is no plausible way to please everyone. While the pro High Elf community likes to portray themselves as having a simple request and Blizzard has gone out of their way to spite them, that community has never properly engaged with the objections to their goals or the impact on other players.

The Blood Elves are the most popular race in the Horde faction. One of the reasons the Blood Elves were added to the Horde in the first place was to increase the base Horde population, something they have been wildly successful in doing. Some Alliance players covet the most popular race within the Horde and desire an unaltered duplicate of that race. It seems counter-intuitive to think that the expression of a demand for a race that was specifically placed on the Horde to increase the Horde's popularity is going to be successful. Alliance players coveting a Horde race so openly means that the placement of the Blood Elves within the Horde was a success.

More importantly, Blood Elves form a core part of the Horde faction. It is as unfair to the Horde to ask for unaltered thalassian elves as it would be for Horde players to demand Draenei or Worgen because they like the look of them. We play a two faction game, and ensuring those two factions remain as distinct as possible is good for Blizzard in that it allows them to preserve the valuable Horde and Alliance brands but also good for players in fostering a them versus us attitude. So long as factions are important, the integrity of those factions is important. And the High Elf exiles are simply too close thematically and aesthetically to Blood Elves to be added without issue, which is what Blizzard discovered.

I do not like Void Elves. I would have preferred that the Blood Elf model remain Horde exclusive. However, the compromise they represent is adequate. The Alliance players got the model, but one that was profoundly aesthetically and thematically different from the Blood Elves with enough space to grow into their own thing.
And the game is written in such a way that it is possible to roleplay your Void Elf as a former High Elf exile, ensuring anyone who does claim it is their connection to that group that drives them can finally play one should they themselves decide to do it.

Blizzard knew what they were doing with Void Elves. They created them for several reasons. And they also knew that once they created Void Elves, they were closing the door on the Alliance getting unaltered High Elven exiles. Because while we talk about Blood Elves being impacted by the possibility here, it is also true that Void Elves would similarly be impacted. If Blood Elves on the Horde were a barrier before, the Void Elves are a second barrier that is as equally sturdy, at a stroke doubling the reasons Blizzard has for not adding playable Alliance High Elves.

There is no plausible way to please everyone. Void Elves, the most successful Allied race, have pleased enough. That a few hundred remain upset is regrettable. But those playing Blood Elves AND Void Elves now should not be made to suffer for those who have never reconciled themselves to the modern wow status quo.

Good point re Alleria. Though, with the "god of the gaps" thinking of some on the other side, her becoming a void elf via a different means allows people to say the "en masse" method is still only blood elves.

You're right that it is impossible to please everyone. Those that try often please no one. And your assessment regarding population figures is also poignant. The faction split is fairly balanced at present. But, if blood elves, the most popular Horde race (almost 3 times as popular as orcs the next most played race, almost certainly because of their pleasing aesthetic), was copied with very few meaningful changes onto the Alliance (the more aesthetically pleasing faction for many), this would almost certainly have a detrimental effect on faction balance. Especially considering, as you point out, the success of the void elves compared with other Allied Races.

I think if blood elves get arcane blue eyes, Farstrider warpaint and runic tattoos, as many including myself speculate they will, I think it'll be even harder to justify the addition of high elves to the Alliance than it is now. (I hope we'll get brown hair too!)

[Aldo Hawk]

So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

Don't even try, he is being purposefully obtuse just to be on the contrary. Has been doing so for years now on this thread.

And, on the other side, let's just face for a goddamn time that Void elves will never have more effect on High elves than to derail the threads.

As long as the group of the High elves still exist, they will be asked for to be playable.

The idea that because a handful of High elves might turn into Void elves will be enought to simply say that they would be 100% playable is ridiculous. That is not what has been asked for, what is being asked for is for the High elves, and the only way to make the former idea work would be for -all- High elves to turn into Void elves, not some of them here and there.

By that, you are not only being obtuse about the existence of the other group, but also advocate to strip what makes them what they are. Not mad, not infused with void, not being able to be paladins or potentially shamans, a simpler story by simply being mixed in an unrecognizable way, etc etc...

I can't see how that can come out from someone who likes warcraft lore. High elves are not Void elves, period.

[Ielenia]

Warcraft encyclopedia specifically states High Elves were mistrusted by many within the Alliance.

WE was written during vanilla WoW, in 2006, and stopped being updated in 2008. In all those ten-plus years, a lot has happened, and their standing with one-another has greatly improved. To the point that the Silver Covenant was the "hub" for the Alliance for not one, but two expansions.

I have also never seen a single in-game example of mistrust from the Alliance toward high elves.

[Aucald]

And your statement is incorrect, as Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner (also the first Void Elf) was never a Blood Elf, and yet is a Void Elf.

We don't really know what Alleria is, to be honest. She's a Void Elf by dint of origin, but not in the same way Umbric's people are Void Elves - she wasn't partially transformed by Durzaan, and her abilities aren't really the same (in either terms of scale or utility) as Umbric's Void Elves. Her appearance is also not changed by her Void abilities and powers, she has been mutated or altered by said powers in the same way as Umbric's people. Save for her use of her Void form, you'd otherwise never know she'd been touched by the Void unless you were already privy to it.

[Aldo Hawk]

We don't really know what Alleria is, to be honest. She's a Void Elf by dint of origin, but not in the same way Umbric's people are Void Elves - she wasn't partially transformed by Durzaan, and her abilities aren't really the same (in either terms of scale or utility) as Umbric's Void Elves. Her appearance is also not changed by her Void abilities and powers, she has been mutated or altered by said powers in the same way as Umbric's people. Save for her use of her Void form, you'd otherwise never know she'd been touched by the Void unless you were already privy to it.

That is not the argument.

The argument is that there are Void elves that weren't Blood elves, which is unimportant, but being used as to say that High elves as playable option can be played through Void elves, which just misses the point entirely and is a ridiculous statement.

What Alleria is or from where Void elves can come is just used to derail the High elf threads. It will be an unconsecuential point as long as High elves exist.

[delus]

Still using that non-answers as proof? It's still only Blood Elves that became Void Elves. The whole story ingame is about Blood Elves becoming Void Elves, not sure why you ignore it. He gave that answer because they don't have plans of changing that or they don't know. As far as presented, Blood Elves will be the ones that expand the ranks of Void Elves.

You have tried to use this argument for so long, as long it's no proof of Alliance High Elves going Void Elves that argument is a non-argument. It's a headcanon until this is actually proven by either ingame, novels or when a dev actually say "Yes, Alliance High Elves turns into Void Elves". When they do, I'll quote you and write that I agree.

I'm really hoping they create a storyline where they create new void elves through a different process. Maybe a questline that unlocks Alleria type void elves.