1. #13741
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    it would be a problem if they aged quickly, but they are a long-lived race. In all that time they can find a thousand ways to cure their addiction

    - - - Updated - - -


    Ignorance does not exempt them from their actions. They are addicted, it is a fact; and even after knowing it, they want to remain addicted and drain the lives of other living beings to satiate their addiction.
    Of course, after the sunwell restoration they stopped draining lives, but I am sure that if sunwell had not been restored, they would continue draining lives.


    The weight of their morals is not in doing the logical thing to save some lives, it is in choosing to satisfy their addiction through the dispossession of the vital force of other living beings (it doesn't matter if they were non-sapient). If they exclusively did it to save the children and the old ones, it could be justifiable.


    like exile? you have to understand that an immigrant does not have a good time in his first moments, and if you add their ailments... it is something less pleasant.
    How is it different from killing animals for their meat?
    Honestly, this is really hypocritical.

  2. #13742
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    How is it different from killing animals for their meat?
    Honestly, this is really hypocritical.
    You eat meat to feed on its nutrients and these keep you physiologically optimal, not by addiction. It is the need for food (of any living being) that leads you to hunt or raise animals for food, not addiction.

    If you feel that it is something hypocritical it would be like saying that it is also hypocritical to be against cocaine because they also come from the vegetable kingdom and you eating carrots.

    It is one thing to kill in a controlled way because of your need to eat and another is to kill to satisfy your addiction.

  3. #13743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    The weight of their morals is not in doing the logical thing to save some lives, it is in choosing to satisfy their addiction through the dispossession of the vital force of other living beings (it doesn't matter if they were non-sapient). If they exclusively did it to save the children and the old ones, it could be justifiable.


    like exile? you have to understand that an immigrant does not have a good time in his first moments, and if you add their ailments... it is something less pleasant.
    Every race on Azeroth does that with meat multiple times a day! If meat isn't necessary in our world, it's probably not necessary on Azeroth either.

    The only canonically exiled group were the elves of Quel'Lithien. Others like those in Dalaran or Stormwind were probably well established expats at the time of the Sunwell's destruction.

  4. #13744
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Every race on Azeroth does that with meat multiple times a day! If meat isn't necessary in our world, it's probably not necessary on Azeroth either.
    You do not eat meat by addiction.
    Addiction is not a synonym for need or survival.

    The only canonically exiled group were the elves of Quel'Lithien. Others like those in Dalaran or Stormwind were probably well established expats at the time of the Sunwell's destruction.
    You are not getting the point. An immigrant goes through very difficult adaptation possesses (whether exiled or not). If you add to that their ailments, it makes the process even more difficult both psychologically and physically

  5. #13745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    You do not eat meat by addiction.
    Addiction is not a synonym for need or survival.

    You are not getting the point. An immigrant goes through very difficult adaptation possesses (whether exiled or not). If you add to that their ailments, it makes the process even more difficult both psychologically and physically
    You don't eat meat out of a need for survival, you eat it out of preference or convenience. The nutrients you get from meat can be obtained elsewhere in a balanced diet, but many people cannot be bothered to accommodate a meat-free diet because meat is an admittedly easier way to get a lot of important nutrients all in one food type. Lentils and nuts and all that sort of thing are probably available in Azeroth too, so someone on Azeroth who criticises the blood elves for draining magic from livestock but eats meat themselves is a hypocrite.

    I am getting it and I'm telling you that I wager most high elves in Dalaran and Stormwind and other Alliance lands had probably been there for a considerable amount of time and were probably very at home. Plus, their difficulties in assimilating or whatever could not possibly compare to the horrific fight for survival the blood elves faced every day in the wake of Arthas' attack. Not to mention the grief. 90% of everyone you know and love gone.

  6. #13746
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    You don't eat meat out of a need for survival, you eat it out of preference or convenience. The nutrients you get from meat can be obtained elsewhere in a balanced diet, but many people cannot be bothered to accommodate a meat-free diet because meat is an admittedly easier way to get a lot of important nutrients all in one food type. Lentils and nuts and all that sort of thing are probably available in Azeroth too, so someone on Azeroth who criticises the blood elves for draining magic from livestock but eats meat themselves is a hypocrite.
    A natural and balanced diet without meat does not offer you all the nutrients that exist in the animal protein. For a vegetarian diet even you need to consume some nutritional supplements that provide you with the necessary substances to make certain physiological processes work, and many of these supplements are expensive and inaccessible to many people who want to lead a vegetarian lifestyle, forcing them to follow an incomplete diet.
    Again, satisfying an addiction is not the same as eating meat.

    I am getting it and I'm telling you that I wager most high elves in Dalaran and Stormwind and other Alliance lands had probably been there for a considerable amount of time and were probably very at home. Plus, their difficulties in assimilating or whatever could not possibly compare to the horrific fight for survival the blood elves faced every day in the wake of Arthas' attack. Not to mention the grief. 90% of everyone you know and love gone.
    Both groups suffered the same losses. High elves besides losing their family and friends also lost their home and their culture. You have to study the life of an immigrant to understand what has to happen to adapt to a life outside your home, even when this home is involved in a war.
    Last edited by Ignaz; 2019-12-03 at 03:34 PM.

  7. #13747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    A natural and balanced diet without meat does not offer you all the nutrients that exist in the animal protein. For a vegetarian diet even you need to consume some nutritional supplements that provide you with the necessary substances to make certain physiological processes work, and many of these supplements are expensive and inaccessible to many people who want to lead a vegetarian lifestyle, forcing them to follow an incomplete diet.
    Again, satisfying an addiction is not the same as eating meat.


    Both groups suffered the same losses. High elves besides losing their family and friends also lost their home and their culture. You have to study the life of an immigrant to understand what has to happen to adapt to a life outside your home, even when this home is involved in a war.
    It's a myth that vegetarians need supplements. Many take them because they don't want to bother with proper dietary planning, but you can get all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals you need from a meat-free diet. So, I maintain carnivorous critics of blood elves are hypocrites.

    Of course, being an immigrant can be tough, but it is a choice (unless one is a refugee) and the high elves who were not exiled chose to leave Quel'Thalas and then stay away when Kael'thas called for reconquest and reclamation. Of course, the high elves may have lost friends and family members in the destruction of Quel'Thalas, but they did not lose their homes on top of it and the threat of death every day and they also chose not to return to the surviving family members they may have had in Quel'Thalas and help them rebuild their lives. They stayed were they were safe and relatively comfortable. Considering their choice not to return home to help rebuild, they probably weren't very close to those Thalassians still in Quel'Thalas.

    The Kirin Tor high elves will have probably suffered when Archimonde attacked Dalaran, I'll give them that. But, they also chose to remain loyal to Dalaran when Garithos tried to murder the prince of their people in the Kirin Tor's capital city, so my sympathy for them is diminished.

  8. #13748
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    It's a myth that vegetarians need supplements. Many take them because they don't want to bother with proper dietary planning, but you can get all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals you need from a meat-free diet. So, I maintain carnivorous critics of blood elves are hypocrites.
    A vegetarian / vegan person with the correct natural diet can meet the requirements of some essential amino acids and especially vitamins, but there are a number of substances that contain animal products such as meat, eggs and dairy products that are essential for body development and Cellular physiological function and they can only be found in nutritional supplements.
    According to The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (2016)
    e.g. Usually, a vegetarian / vegan person has a deficiency of vitamin b12 (this predisposes them to suffer from sickle cell anemia) and ALA and DHA (a type of Omega 3 and 6) that are essential for the development of the nervous system.

    Of course, being an immigrant can be tough, but it is a choice (unless one is a refugee) and the high elves who were not exiled chose to leave Quel'Thalas and then stay away when Kael'thas called for reconquest and reclamation. Of course, the high elves may have lost friends and family members in the destruction of Quel'Thalas, but they did not lose their homes on top of it and the threat of death every day and they also chose not to return to the surviving family members they may have had in Quel'Thalas and help them rebuild their lives. They stayed were they were safe and relatively comfortable. Considering their choice not to return home to help rebuild, they probably weren't very close to those Thalassians still in Quel'Thalas.

    The Kirin Tor high elves will have probably suffered when Archimonde attacked Dalaran, I'll give them that. But, they also chose to remain loyal to Dalaran when Garithos tried to murder the prince of their people in the Kirin Tor's capital city, so my sympathy for them is diminished.
    None had a choice, if they did not follow the practices established by Kael'thas they had to leave their home, this in order to create order and not a divisions or disturbances in Silvermoon.
    It is practically a dictatorial mandate

  9. #13749
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    A vegetarian / vegan person with the correct natural diet can meet the requirements of some essential amino acids and especially vitamins, but there are a number of substances that contain animal products such as meat, eggs and dairy products that are essential for body development and Cellular physiological function and they can only be found in nutritional supplements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    It's a myth that vegetarians need supplements. Many take them because they don't want to bother with proper dietary planning, but you can get all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals you need from a meat-free diet. So, I maintain carnivorous critics of blood elves are hypocrites.
    I'm really unsure who is arguing what here to be honest. One is arguing that humans (aren't we talking about elves?) do need to eat meat to get necessary nutrients, the other is saying because meat is a choice any High Elf that eats meat is a hypocrite?

    Isn't the point that all living beings need to consume other living beings (even plants are alive) in order to survive - why quibble over which living beings, or the manner by which you extract the energy, unless it is unnecessarily cruel?

  10. #13750
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    I'm really unsure who is arguing what here to be honest. One is arguing that humans (aren't we talking about elves?) do need to eat meat to get necessary nutrients, the other is saying because meat is a choice any High Elf that eats meat is a hypocrite?

    Isn't the point that all living beings need to consume other living beings (even plants are alive) in order to survive - why quibble over which living beings, or the manner by which you extract the energy, unless it is unnecessarily cruel?
    My point is that you can be a vegetarian if you want, but satisfying an addiction through the consumption of the vital force of another being is morally wrong.

  11. #13751
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    My point is that you can be a vegetarian if you want, but satisfying an addiction through the consumption of the vital force of another being is morally wrong.
    Oh I see.

    But then the argument still stands, eating any living being for anything other than purely for substance is morally wrong.

  12. #13752
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    Oh I see.

    But then the argument still stands, eating any living being for anything other than purely for substance is morally wrong.
    that's why there is a sin called gluttony, I think…

    In that context, almost every living being consumes another living being; the difference with humans is that we build a moral thought that allows us to live healthy in society. Then our moral dictates that: eating for pleasure is not the same as eating with pleasure.

    How can I be a hypocrite? e.g. if I condemn the consumption of meat for indiscriminate hunting or the disproportionate raising of cattle for trade in the market; Then I buy that animal product in a supermarket and consume it with pleasure.

    If high elves condemned the practice of stripping a living being of his vital force to satisfy an addiction and then; when no one is watching them, they consume the vital force of another living being to satisfy their addiction, that would make them hypocritical
    Last edited by Ignaz; 2019-12-03 at 11:03 PM.

  13. #13753
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    that's why there is a sin called gluttony, I think…

    In that context, almost every living being consumes another living being; the difference with humans is that we build a moral thought that allows us to live healthy in society. Then our moral dictates that: eating for pleasure is not the same as eating with pleasure.

    How can I be a hypocrite? e.g. if I condemn the consumption of meat for indiscriminate hunting or the disproportionate raising of cattle for trade in the market; Then I buy that animal product in a supermarket and consume it with pleasure.

    If high elves condemned the practice of stripping a living being of his vital force to satisfy an addiction and then; when no one is watching them, they consume the vital force of another living being to satisfy their addiction, that would make them hypocritical
    You do realize that there are high elf NPCs that send you on quests to kill animals, none of which (to my knowledge) are quests to gather food for sustenance. I recall one quest where you're asked to kill a bear and bring his head back (leaving behind the rest of the bear body

    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde.

    I previously pointed out Thalo'thas Brightsun who is a high elf NPC in ratchet who gives Horde players a quest to kill Alliance sailors.

    I forgot to point out Gilthares Firebough, a high elf NPC in the Barrens who is friendly to the Horde and neutral to Alliance.

    There's also Gilveradin Sunchaser, a high elf NPC in the Hinterlands who does not care about the ALliance and is on good terms with a pair of orcs from Orgrimmar. He also gives quests exclusively to Horde players.

    These are just a few high elf NPCs who are not on the Alliance, and either have a better relationship with the Horde or are outright hostile toward the Alliance.
    Last edited by Strippling; 2019-12-04 at 02:49 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  14. #13754
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    You do realize that there are high elf NPCs that send you on quests to kill animals, none of which (to my knowledge) are quests to gather food for sustenance. I recall one quest where you're asked to kill a bear and bring his head back (leaving behind the rest of the bear body
    Why do they send you to kill that bear?

  15. #13755
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    that's why there is a sin called gluttony, I think…

    In that context, almost every living being consumes another living being; the difference with humans is that we build a moral thought that allows us to live healthy in society. Then our moral dictates that: eating for pleasure is not the same as eating with pleasure.

    How can I be a hypocrite? e.g. if I condemn the consumption of meat for indiscriminate hunting or the disproportionate raising of cattle for trade in the market; Then I buy that animal product in a supermarket and consume it with pleasure.

    If high elves condemned the practice of stripping a living being of his vital force to satisfy an addiction and then; when no one is watching them, they consume the vital force of another living being to satisfy their addiction, that would make them hypocritical
    I'm not saying you're a hypocrite.

    I'm pointing out the logical inconsistency of what you're saying.

    If your argument that Blood Elves were "morally wrong" for sating an addition (indulging in an unnecessary activity that leads to the death of living beings) then why does this same standard not extend to all other such activities.

    The vast majority of food (I'm not just talking about meat) consumed isn't necessary to sustain life, it is overwhelmingly to indulge personal, and unnecessary, pleasure - not unlike an addiction (the only difference is arguably the anti-social behaviour that arises from additions).

    If one is "morally wrong" then so is the other. You'd have an argument if all High Elves lived an extremely frugal life that rejected all excesses, but they don't.

  16. #13756
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    Why do they send you to kill that bear?
    Been a while, but from memory the bear is hanging around so you're sent to kill him. Not the most "moral" choice if the bear was living there before the high elf was.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  17. #13757
    @Ignaz you still here man haha What are you talking about in here lately? :P

    I just came to check up on the conversations, but so much to read...

    I came to the conclusion that whatever they do, i will accept and i won't complain. lol

  18. #13758
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Been a while, but from memory the bear is hanging around so you're sent to kill him. Not the most "moral" choice if the bear was living there before the high elf was.
    Thats just life. Man arrives, animal dies.

  19. #13759
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Thats just life. Man arrives, animal dies.
    So that's acceptable but draining mana from creatures is "morally wrong"?
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  20. #13760
    Not to mention the fact that they believed that withdrawal would kill them, with good reason. Choosing not to die to an addiction that wasn't even your choice isn't remotely morally ambiguous.

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