Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aucald]

That is not the argument.

The argument is that there are Void elves that weren't Blood elves, which is unimportant, but being used as to say that High elves as playable option can be played through Void elves, which just misses the point entirely and is a ridiculous statement.

What Alleria is or from where Void elves can come is just used to derail the High elf threads. It will be an unconsecuential point as long as High elves exist.

I'm not making an argument, just an observation.

I do agree that you can't really play a playable Void Elf as a High Elf, though - they don't really share in the essential divide between the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, they have their own cultural (and physiological) divide between themselves and their kin that's part and parcel of their story.

Alleria's story and role in the Void Elves' story is an exception to the basic rule, and doesn't matter overly because Alleria is obviously an NPC and non-playable. Any playable Void Elf has a different story. Though I guess you could RP yourself as an exception to the rule, as well; I'm not personally opposed to that although I think it falls into the far-end of acceptable RP/OC behavior, though I'm not big on WoW RP myself so I don't know firmly what is or isn't acceptable.

[delus]

Guess what? Many of those void elves who died are coming back as DKs. So we have evidence of void elves coming back but not new ones being created. Yet. So how many blood elf exiles became first generation void elves is up for grabs. There may have been a thousand, there may have been ten thousand. They just overplayed the "crack squad".

[Manariel]

Don't even try, he is being purposefully obtuse just to be on the contrary. Has been doing so for years now on this thread.

And, on the other side, let's just face for a goddamn time that Void elves will never have more effect on High elves than to derail the threads.

As long as the group of the High elves still exist, they will be asked for to be playable.

The idea that because a handful of High elves might turn into Void elves will be enought to simply say that they would be 100% playable is ridiculous. That is not what has been asked for, what is being asked for is for the High elves, and the only way to make the former idea work would be for -all- High elves to turn into Void elves, not some of them here and there.

By that, you are not only being obtuse about the existence of the other group, but also advocate to strip what makes them what they are. Not mad, not infused with void, not being able to be paladins or potentially shamans, a simpler story by simply being mixed in an unrecognizable way, etc etc...

I can't see how that can come out from someone who likes warcraft lore. High elves are not Void elves, period.

Quoted for truth, especially the bolded part.

I do like Void Elves, but thematically, historically and lore-wise, they are a faction of Blood Elves, not High Elves. And they'll never make sense as former High Elves, because their very existence runs contrary to the distancing of dangerous magics that High Elves have chosen for themselves, both in Dalaran and Quel'danil.

High, Blood and Void Elves are three distinct flavors of Thalassian elves. That Horde players screams to high heavens that the Void Elves are a compromise for the former doesn't make it true. they are a mistake, lorewise and outside of it. Blizzard tried to please everyone and failed utterly. They also failed to prove Obelisk kai and Thalassian Bob theory that they can turn othersinto their kind.

They added one little scripted event in Telogrus and it has nothing to do with some elves being turned. One doesn't need to became a Void Elf to master the Void, as Alleria's story on Argus and prior proved, so the presence of Blood Elves and High Elves there means nothing in regard to increased numbers - numbers which have alwas been irrelevant in WoW.

I'd also like to point out that, like Worgens and probably Lightforged (who may or may not be sterile after the process of Lightforging), aren't a real race, just a cursed state of humans (or altered Draeneï for the latter), Void Elves may be unable to reproduce normally, either because they can't have children, can't have sane or unmutated children or even don't want to. Therefore, they'd require a constant supply of either High or Blood Elves, and the latter being more numerous, they'd be quick to be just purple Blood Elves. Which they already are, considering how Blizzard seem intent to use them.

And that's a big problem and a huge difference comapred to the High Elves.

[Doffen]

I'm really hoping they create a storyline where they create new void elves through a different process. Maybe a questline that unlocks Alleria type void elves.

Yeah, why not. A more controlled one like what Alleria did.

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Don't even try, he is being purposefully obtuse just to be on the contrary. Has been doing so for years now on this thread.

And, on the other side, let's just face for a goddamn time that Void elves will never have more effect on High elves than to derail the threads.

As long as the group of the High elves still exist, they will be asked for to be playable.

The idea that because a handful of High elves might turn into Void elves will be enought to simply say that they would be 100% playable is ridiculous. That is not what has been asked for, what is being asked for is for the High elves, and the only way to make the former idea work would be for -all- High elves to turn into Void elves, not some of them here and there.

By that, you are not only being obtuse about the existence of the other group, but also advocate to strip what makes them what they are. Not mad, not infused with void, not being able to be paladins or potentially shamans, a simpler story by simply being mixed in an unrecognizable way, etc etc...

I can't see how that can come out from someone who likes warcraft lore. High elves are not Void elves, period.

I am just trying to figure out what he really means with all this, if he think it's okay to rp as High Elf, then surely he would think that giving Void Elves a High Elf skin would fit.

I myself see Void Elves as one group. Because that's what they are and described as. Former group of Blood Elves that delved into the Void. Nothing more, nothing less. Like you know, the population was always the "main argument" of High Elves not being playable. Why wasn't it okay that the High Elves reproduced then right? It's just being hypocritical. And that's what gets me. Turning points whenever it fits. Like you know, "no no, High Elves are such a small group, can't reproduce or recruit from Silvermoon, to now where it's "oh yeah yeah, Void Elves can recruit from all over the place no problem". It's just silly at this point.

[Obelisk Kai]

We don't really know what Alleria is, to be honest. She's a Void Elf by dint of origin, but not in the same way Umbric's people are Void Elves - she wasn't partially transformed by Durzaan, and her abilities aren't really the same (in either terms of scale or utility) as Umbric's Void Elves. Her appearance is also not changed by her Void abilities and powers, she has been mutated or altered by said powers in the same way as Umbric's people. Save for her use of her Void form, you'd otherwise never know she'd been touched by the Void unless you were already privy to it.

Yet Alleria defines herself as a void elf in the opening narration played to every Void Elf player. Yes, she came by her powers a different fashion but the fundamentals of what defines a void elf still apply to her, namely her constant struggle with the whispers (the struggle that led her to identity with Umbric's newly transformed group in the first place), a connection to the void, the ability to wield void powers (particularly teleporting using the void as a conduit) and of course, a dedicated void form.

I would recommend that as she now defines herself as a Void Elf, that she has the final word on the matter. Alleria Windrunner is a Void Elf. A different kind of Void Elf (and the only one of her kind given how she came about her transformation), sure, but a Void Elf nonetheless.

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WE was written during vanilla WoW, in 2006, and stopped being updated in 2008. In all those ten-plus years, a lot has happened, and their standing with one-another has greatly improved. To the point that the Silver Covenant was the "hub" for the Alliance for not one, but two expansions.

I have also never seen a single in-game example of mistrust from the Alliance toward high elves.

So?

Is a political magazine from 2006 that says George W. Bush is the US President wrong?

The encyclopedia is true as of the moment it was written. Nothing in it has been retconned, although some of the situations described within have evolved from the point it was authored.

And we know that Sean Copeland, who was on Blizzard's lore librarian team, said that the encyclopedia was still canon several years and several expansions later.

That the encyclopedia says there was mistrust of the High Elves within the Alliance means that there was mistrust of the High Elves within the Alliance. That is the canon written word. Just because you are relying on your personal experience that you didn't see any doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

After all, from the perspective of the common Alliance citizen, the High Elves have taken the following actions in the past twenty years.

*Refused to come to the aid of the Human Kingdoms of their own free will.
*Were compelled by treaty to come to the aid of the Human Kingdoms.
*Sent the bare minimum force to participate as a result.
*Joined the Alliance only when their own lands were attacked.
*Withdrew from the Alliance at the first opportunity.
*Held the Alliance responsible for the destruction of their Kingdom, despite the fact that numerous Human Kingdoms were burning at the same time.
*Fraternised with the Naga and defied the orders of the Alliance commander in charge of reclaiming Lordaeron.
*Abandoned that commander, whose depleted forces would later be massacred by the Undead.
*Joined the new Horde of their own free will and aided the Horde during periods of the cold peace in operations against the Alliance.
*Were revealed to be mana junkies desperate for a fix.
*The Prince of the Elves sided with the Demons and nearly helped precipitate the third invasion of the Burning Legion early.
*Participated in both the Pandaria campaign and the Fourth War in active campaigns against the Alliance, with an elf being one of the key operatives who ensured the destruction of Theramore. Elven forces also played a role in the war of thorns which led to the burning of teldrassil.
*The High Elven exiles seemingly sat in Dalaran for the entirety of the Fourth War, because you can only have ONE personal example of a High Elven exile fighting that war, frostfencer Seraphi.
*The High Elven exiles are traitors to their homeland. Nobody trusts a traitor, and history in the real world bears this out.
*The high elves who did participate on the side of the Alliance are actually void crazed maniacs.

So despite all the above, you really expect to argue that the encyclopedia comment that the high elven exiles are mistrusted is non-canon?

Frankly looking at all of the above I am not surprised the vast majority of them actually do still live in Dalaran. Of course they would be mistrusted to a degree.

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Good point re Alleria. Though, with the "god of the gaps" thinking of some on the other side, her becoming a void elf via a different means allows people to say the "en masse" method is still only blood elves.

You're right that it is impossible to please everyone. Those that try often please no one. And your assessment regarding population figures is also poignant. The faction split is fairly balanced at present. But, if blood elves, the most popular Horde race (almost 3 times as popular as orcs the next most played race, almost certainly because of their pleasing aesthetic), was copied with very few meaningful changes onto the Alliance (the more aesthetically pleasing faction for many), this would almost certainly have a detrimental effect on faction balance. Especially considering, as you point out, the success of the void elves compared with other Allied Races.

I think if blood elves get arcane blue eyes, Farstrider warpaint and runic tattoos, as many including myself speculate they will, I think it'll be even harder to justify the addition of high elves to the Alliance than it is now. (I hope we'll get brown hair too!)

I don't think the population would be dramatically shifted by playable High Elven exiles, that isn't my concern. I think that giving the Horde an aesthetically pleasing race was one of the reasons for addition of Blood Elves and that the level of interest in Blood Elves nearly twelve years later validates that design choice.

Void Elves are a 90-95% match of a Blood Elf. They are a compromise I am not keen on, but a compromise I believe most of us can live with. It looks like Blizzard went right up to the limits of their red lines in faction diversity in giving the Alliance as close a copy as they did.

Blood Elf customization options are going to be the next trigger of debate in this thread and until then we are going to tread water going over the same topics again and again. At the moment, it is reasonable to expect eye colour options, tattoos and possibly scars.

As there are no tattoos available for Blood Elves right now, there are two primary inspirations they could with. The runic style tattoos seen on the Blood Elf on the TBC box cover, and the Farstrider tattoos from Warcraft 2, one of which is sported by Alleria. My preference would, of course, to have both as options, but it may be felt that runic style tattoos are now a Nightborne thing. This would leave the 'Farstrider' options, and I believe these are probably going to be offered to Blood Elves.

Eye colour of course opens a kettle of fish due to the prediction of blue eyes for Blood Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't (Moorgard recently confirmed that a blue eyed Blood Elf named Lanesh was not a mistake, as many pro High Elfers have argued), then I believe the pro High Elf community will rage for a few days before deciding eye colour doesn't really matter. Should Blood Elves not get blue eyes, pro High Elfers will take it as proof that Blizzard sees High Elven exiles as a distinct group and they are 'reserving' the eye colour for them, although it's probably likelier they may like to keep blue eyes as unique to Void Elves (who currently sport that eye colour). If Blizzard is wise, they should grant Blood Elves a blue eye option. Blood Elves are playable. Alliance High Elf exiles are not. Denying an option to a group that is already being played to spare the feelings of the tiny group of fans of an even tinier group of NPCs is illogical.

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Quoted for truth, especially the bolded part.

I do like Void Elves, but thematically, historically and lore-wise, they are a faction of Blood Elves, not High Elves. And they'll never make sense as former High Elves, because their very existence runs contrary to the distancing of dangerous magics that High Elves have chosen for themselves, both in Dalaran and Quel'danil.

High, Blood and Void Elves are three distinct flavors of Thalassian elves. That Horde players screams to high heavens that the Void Elves are a compromise for the former doesn't make it true. they are a mistake, lorewise and outside of it. Blizzard tried to please everyone and failed utterly. They also failed to prove Obelisk kai and Thalassian Bob theory that they can turn othersinto their kind.

They added one little scripted event in Telogrus and it has nothing to do with some elves being turned. One doesn't need to became a Void Elf to master the Void, as Alleria's story on Argus and prior proved, so the presence of Blood Elves and High Elves there means nothing in regard to increased numbers - numbers which have alwas been irrelevant in WoW.

I'd also like to point out that, like Worgens and probably Lightforged (who may or may not be sterile after the process of Lightforging), aren't a real race, just a cursed state of humans (or altered Draeneï for the latter), Void Elves may be unable to reproduce normally, either because they can't have children, can't have sane or unmutated children or even don't want to. Therefore, they'd require a constant supply of either High or Blood Elves, and the latter being more numerous, they'd be quick to be just purple Blood Elves. Which they already are, considering how Blizzard seem intent to use them.

And that's a big problem and a huge difference comapred to the High Elves.

There are two types of thalassian elves. Blood/High Elves and Void Elves. The former group has a subfaction who are divided from the main group by politics, not by anything else. Nobody would argue that the Highborne mages, who follow a different ideology from mainstream Night Elves, would count as a co-eval branch of Kaldorei type Elves alongside Night Elves and Nightborne.

As for 'distancing themselves from dangerous magics', there are literally High Elven wayfarers inside Telogrus learning how to use the void right now. Go make a void elf and wander around, you can't fail to see them. Stating that High Elven exiles cannot do what they are doing in game as I write this and which you can observe for yourself makes a farce of your response.

The High Elven exiles, as few of them as there are, are not a monolith. Even if only a handful of them decided to give this void magic a try and become Void Elves, that is all that is required to justify a roleplayer who wishes to say they were never a Blood Elf and have fought beside for the Alliance for decades.

P.S. Alleria is a Void Elf. A different kind of Void Elf, but she is a Void Elf. She even calls herself a Void Elf, and I think you should trust her word on what she is.

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I can confirm that because that is confirmed in game. You only speculate, which is something else entirely. Their numbers comes from Blood Elves, until said or proven other wise.

Blood Elves are High Elves. As long as they are able to convert other Elves using the same technique, something you have conceded, then the process conducted upon a High Elf will result in a Void Elf. The presence of the High Elven Wayfarers alongside the Silvermoon scholars matches Moorgard's comments about other elves seeking the void elves to learn their ways and undergo a similar process. Nothing can contradict any Void Elf who wishes to argue they were a High Elven exile from Dalaran.

Not for the Void Elves we are interacting with, everyone bar Alleria are former Blood Elves, stated by in game sources. Nothing else contradict that. So my statement stands, all Void Elves, playable or not are former Blood Elves. Bar Alleria. No one else. You are only speculating I'm afraid. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing contradicts the possibility that some of the Void Elves are former High Elves, and the presence of High Elven wayfarers learning the ways of the void alongside the Silvermoon scholars is deliberate. Speculation is one thing. Refusing to join clearly labelled dots is another.

Yes, but you are only speculating that Alliance High Elves turns into Blood Elves. How many times do we have to repeat that it's not happened, nor is it confirmed. So keep on speculating.

Void Elven replication confirmed by Moorgard. Moorgard also said 'other elves', not 'other blood elves'. There are High Elven wayfarers present in Telogrus rift learning the ways of the void. Saying this is speculation is akin to saying five weeks ago, following the leak of the image of Bolvar and the Shadowlands logo, that saying the next expansion is Shadowlands was mere speculation. At some point the evidence (plus common sense) becomes too great to ignore without looking deliberately obtuse.

I know how you interpret things, with a very biased viewpoint. Which is proven further down here with the infamous statement made in 2017. Lots of twisting with words, we all know that.

Which isn't a retort. Umbric's answers are slightly ambiguous and allow a Void Elf roleplayer considerable leeway in interpreting their own origin should they choose.

I pointed that out yesterday actually, but no surprise you ignored that. They are named Wayfarer's for a good reason. It can be anyone. Which is the point in all of this. These wayfaring High Elves could have come from anywhere. Even the Alliance, but so far none of the Void Elves we interact with are former Alliance High Elves. And who knows, maybe you are right

We have confirmed there are too few High Elven exiles left to form any serious population centres. The only place they are known to congregate are in Dalaran and in Quel'Danil lodge. Given Quel'Danil's attitude towards magic, this means these void curious elves are probably from the magic city of Dalaran, which would make the most sense. The term 'wayfarer' simply means someone who has travelled, and these wayfarers have travelled to Telogrus and their point of origin can be anywhere. Perhaps the connotation is the somewhat rootless nature of the High Elven exiles. But it is reaching to argue that the wayfarers cannot be High Elven exiles. The precise origin wold in fact be up to the player who selects that as their origin.

But it doesn't? You can rp as much as you want like I said. But it's still not any Void Elf we see ingame that are former Alliance High Elves. Why you ignore this fact, I don't know. Or yes, I do know.

I am not a roleplayer. But while any Void Elf encountered was most likely a Blood Elf previously, there is a small chance that they were a former Alliance High Elf. This is the possibility you cannot eliminate. As you cannot eliminate the possibility, and the available evidence actually strongly suggests that former High Elven exiles are among Void Elf numbers, anyone who chooses to roleplay their Void Elf as a former Alliance High Elf is free to do so and is not engaging in headcanon. Headcanon would be pretending your Void Elf was a High Elven exile who was not a Void Elf, which is impossible.

Seeing how you take something like both Moogard and Magister Umbric and turn into something that fits your agenda is not surprising that you still think you were correct back then. Remember the "also a flavor" part, saying that Blood Elves also are a flavor of High Elves. Which you turned into something that wasn't. The only thing he restated was that High Elves are playable in the Horde.

I have taken the developers at their word and twisted nothing they have said.

Moorgard was asked where Void Elf numbers came from, and he said other elves are seeking them out to undergo a similar process. This is fairly straightforward and tacks with the depiction of telogrus in game. It is the pro High Elf community that has desperately attempted to spin this answer into something it isn't, with I believe the best attempt at an answer being something like that he wasn't answering the question at all. When there is a valid interpretation of an answer that matches the question asked, and the only way to say that wasn't the answer given is to argue he wasn't answering the question at all, I fail to see how that response carries any weight.

Ion never said that Blood Elves are a flavour of High Elves. He said Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves, and listed some exceedingly minor differences with the clear implication that they were too minor to count as differentiation. One of them was eye colour after all (which maybe eliminated in the coming customization expansion) and the other was a different relationship with magic, which probably referred to the split over how to sate their addiction (and which was resolved at the end of TBC).

He said Void Elves were another flavour of High Elf. Which they are. Blueberry flavour compared to vanilla, but still ice cream.

I like how you turned you, into the other side. It's mostly one here that twist, distort and manipulate those answers, and it's not me, and it's not the others.

Which is a bit of a stretch in that I explained my reasoning was to take what the developers say at face value. It saves a lot of time. Like in April when Ion defended the faction system in the forbes article, and too many people in this thread were keen to ignore him saying that. How many people in how many threads spent so much of the summer speculating about the faction system and it's future when if they had just read what the guy had said in April they'd have spared themselves an awful lot of pointless speculation.

Similarly, the only way to not conclude that Moorgard was saying Void Elves cannot recruit others is to try and twist his words so that they don't say what you don't want them to say. Another way people tried to do this as I recall was to parse Moorgard's answer without keeping the question for context. Between the question and the answer, only one interpretation holds water.

Yes, I know you like to take your false and speculative information into something that works for your perception on how this all works.

Given I have been proven right more often than not over the years, my judgement cannot be that faulty.

Not at all, you can RP as much as you want. It's weird for someone to try to tell others how to RP, it's just strange man.

Not really. You roleplay in the circumstances provided. Some races provide more leeway than others, such as a Human player wishing to roleplay they grew up in Dalaran or Alterac. A void elf player cannot roleplay that they are not a void elf however. Void Elves are unique however in that anyone who roleplays their character in a way inconsistent with the lore has already provided people with a narrative defense against it. That the Void Elf in question has gone a bit mad.

So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say,

As she says.

but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Nope, because Alleria came by her powers in a unique method that allows her to transition between a Void Elf form and her base form. However, she is fundamentally a Void Elf now, not a High Elf.

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

No, because those players wish to pretend that they never became Void Elves at all. That is not roleplaying. That is make believe. And any Void Elf who would attempt to roleplay that should be treated as having gone mad. The game itself provides the narrative tool to undermine the claim of any Void Elf roleplayer who attempts to argue this.


Void Elves have zero leeway on this. They are connected to the void and were transformed into Void Elves as a result. That is the fundamental core of that player's race choice.

I am just trying to figure out what he really means with all this, if he think it's okay to rp as High Elf, then surely he would think that giving Void Elves a High Elf skin would fit. .

Easy. The great lie of the pro High Elf community is that it is the lore which motivates them, the desire to play a true high elf that is loyal to the Alliance. If Void Elves can turn High Elves into Void Elves, then all anyone who wishes to connect to that lore and that group has to do is decide their own origin for themselves.

The real reason this is resisted is because to admit it, and to admit that it is possible to play one of those long alliance loyal High Elves (albeit in a different form) means that the objection the Void Elves, that they are NOT those elves, falls away.

And then the real reason is exposed. Pro High Elfers don't want to play a Void Elf because it's blue. But the shallowness of their own ideal is exposed by such a response, even if that being the core problem is obvious to everyone from the developers to the wider community.

So they argue that the objection to Void Elves is based in lore rather than aesthetics, which few if any really believe. It's a fig leaf.

[Manariel]

God forbid @Obelisk Kai ever admit he is flat out unable to understand what pro-HE wants, when he is the one always bringing the appearance of the BE and HE on the table. Because even if some VE were former HE beyond Alleria, and I don't see any proof of that ingame, despite your insinuations and ways to twist tweets and events in game to fit your purpose, that wouldn't make the Void Elves the kind of elves I truly want to play. My main is one for the moment because I fell in love with the Hunter class and didn't want to spend 25€ changing the race when I truly realized that I'd switch main at level 90.

But High Elves, playable high Elves, can't have chosen to become Void Elves, precisely because it runs contrary to their values and beliefs. They'd die before they'd submit to such dangerous energies.

[Aldo Hawk]

I am just trying to figure out what he really means with all this, if he think it's okay to rp as High Elf, then surely he would think that giving Void Elves a High Elf skin would fit.

There will never be anything to figure out as long as the antagonising attitude and pride isn't stripped away. It's always going to be one point, or two points, or three points, and a constant reminder that because agreement is not achieved, then it's not possible.

I have said this quite some times in this thread. Nobody here is a wow developer, and implying that any of us have a final say or such a consequential and/or deciding factor on it is not doing more than to show pure arrogance.

High elf skins on Void elves are one thing, which has no consensus at all. But another thing is to play around it to make more points than what is actually important. Is it a good way to introduce playable High elves?

Not if it is plausible. Devs decide what is plausible, and for them Wildhammer Dwarves, or Warlords of Draenor are plausible, not some forum dwellers with an overweighted ego.

I myself see Void Elves as one group. Because that's what they are and described as. Former group of Blood Elves that delved into the Void. Nothing more, nothing less. Like you know, the population was always the "main argument" of High Elves not being playable. Why wasn't it okay that the High Elves reproduced then right? It's just being hypocritical. And that's what gets me. Turning points whenever it fits. Like you know, "no no, High Elves are such a small group, can't reproduce or recruit from Silvermoon, to now where it's "oh yeah yeah, Void Elves can recruit from all over the place no problem". It's just silly at this point.

Yes, that is why it's nice to point it out.

However... To derail the conversation into pages and pages about Void elves is simply being out of the context, and the worst thing is that it has been taken into consideration just because Void elves are a form of thalassian elf, which simply misses the point entirely.

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I'm not making an argument, just an observation.

Not saying that, I said that what Kai presented is nothing more than cluster that it's only purpose is for him to make as if he has more points than what is actually there.

I do agree that you can't really play a playable Void Elf as a High Elf, though - they don't really share in the essential divide between the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, they have their own cultural (and physiological) divide between themselves and their kin that's part and parcel of their story.

Agreement or disagreement on this has no use at all. Void elves are simply inconsequential to the High elf debate as long as High elves exist.

And High elves existence is not linked to Void elves nor Blood elves. I'ts simply a different group, and by virtue of it, talking about Void elves or Blood elves serves nothing but to derail the conversation away from the idea of playable High elves.

It also creates points out of nowhere that at the end of the day mean nothing and serve no purpose aside from making appear as if there is more than what actually is.

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I do like Void Elves, but thematically, historically and lore-wise, they are a faction of Blood Elves, not High Elves. And they'll never make sense as former High Elves, because their very existence runs contrary to the distancing of dangerous magics that High Elves have chosen for themselves, both in Dalaran and Quel'danil.

I also like the idea of Void elves. It's only that it's introduction and everything that has been involving them has been a total mess. I would like for everything in the game to serve a purpose and have a place within the folklore of Warcraft. If not, it is just going to be a cluster of concepts with no real feeling of being connected to the rest.

High, Blood and Void Elves are three distinct flavors of Thalassian elves. That Horde players screams to high heavens that the Void Elves are a compromise for the former doesn't make it true. they are a mistake, lorewise and outside of it.

Exactly, that is why trying to push Void elves as the final solution is out of touch.

It failed to deliver the High elves. Also failed on other aspects but by simply failing to deliver the High elves it also means that it will never be enough unless they retcon the Void elves or advance their story drastically, as for making also the existing High elves part of their group as a whole.

Void elves have potential of their own, but not for High elves as things are.

They added one little scripted event in Telogrus and it has nothing to do with some elves being turned. One doesn't need to became a Void Elf to master the Void, as Alleria's story on Argus and prior proved, so the presence of Blood Elves and High Elves there means nothing in regard to increased numbers - numbers which have alwas been irrelevant in WoW.

I would not give too much attention to pedantic arguments. 'One character said' and 'One thing exist' isn't usually a strong argument.

[Obelisk Kai]

But High Elves, playable high Elves, can't have chosen to become Void Elves, precisely because it runs contrary to their values and beliefs. They'd die before they'd submit to such dangerous energies.

I don't know about you but it looks like these High Elves aren't dying properly to me.

[Manariel]

I don't know about you but it looks like these High Elves aren't dying properly to me.

And if you had some interest in the discussion, you'd already know that them being here means nothing, because by virtue of seeking dangerous power, and possibly becoming Void Elves, they forfeit their rights to be called High Elves, and failed to properly represent High Elves, instead acting like their blood elven cousins.

[Obelisk Kai]

And if you had some interest in the discussion, you'd already know that them being here means nothing, because by virtue of seeking dangerous power, and possibly becoming Void Elves, they forfeit their rights to be called High Elves, and failed to properly represent High Elves, instead acting like their blood elven cousins.

That's a legitimate point of view, but they are still High Elven exile who became Void Elves and didn't become Blood Elves. Which is the point of their presence.

They could have lived in Stormwind or Dalaran or Quel'Danil, could have fought beside the Alliance on the Isle of Thunder or taken part in the purge of Dalaran, all that could form part of a Void Elf's origin story should they wish it.

[Ielenia]

So?

Is a political magazine from 2006 that says George W. Bush is the US President wrong?

I think you just shot yourself in the foot, there.

For 2006? No, the magazine is not wrong.
For 2019, as in, today? Yes, it is.

The thing is that the Warcraft Encyclopedia may have been up-to-date regarding the lore during vanilla and early TBC, but just like the case with your political magazine, a lot has happened between 2006 and 2019. Which is my point. George W. Bush may have been the president of the US in 2006, but he is not the president, today.

Since 2008, the lore of the Warcraft universe has continued to expand and evolve. An example: can you find anything regarding the Worgen race or the Scythe of Elune in the Warcraft Encyclopedia?

The point is that what the Encyclopedia said about elves may have been true at the time, but it hasn't been the case for the longest time. Not only I can't recall a single time where I've seen any case of prejudice against high elves, but we also see high elves being featured more and more in Alliance storylines.

[Aldo Hawk]

That's a legitimate point of view, but they are still High Elven exile who became Void Elves and didn't become Blood Elves. Which is the point of their presence.

They could have lived in Stormwind or Dalaran or Quel'Danil, could have fought beside the Alliance on the Isle of Thunder or taken part in the purge of Dalaran, all that could form part of a Void Elf's origin story should they wish it.

If it transforms into another thing, then it's no longer a High elf, period. Then it's no longer within the matter at hand.

The thing can't be simpler than that. High elves are not Void elves, and High elves exist (and have been existing) regardless Void elves or Blood elves.

Want to play a Blood elf on the Alliance? Well, Void elves were former Blood elves, but no longer are. I'ts right in front of everyone's noses.

[Obelisk Kai]

I think you just shot yourself in the foot, there.

For 2006? No, the magazine is not wrong.
For 2019, as in, today? Yes, it is.

No, I didn't 'shoot myself in the foot'. A magazine written in 2006 is true as of 2006. More importantly, the passage of time does not mean the events detailed in that magazine did not happen, it merely means time and events have moved on. What happened in 2006 therefore is relevant as a part of the evolution to where we are today. What you are suggesting is that the passage of time means the events described never happened.

The thing is that the Warcraft Encyclopedia may have been up-to-date regarding the lore during vanilla and early TBC, but just like the case with your political magazine, a lot has happened between 2006 and 2019. Which is my point. George W. Bush may have been the president of the US in 2006, but he is not the president, today.

Since 2008, the lore of the Warcraft universe has continued to expand and evolve. An example: can you find anything regarding the Worgen race or the Scythe of Elune in the Warcraft Encyclopedia?

The point is that what the Encyclopedia said about elves may have been true at the time, but it hasn't been the case for the longest time. Not only I can't recall a single time where I've seen any case of prejudice against high elves, but we also see high elves being featured more and more in Alliance storylines.

You saw high elves involved with Dalaran storylines for the most part. During WOTLK and MOP primarily in fact, both of which heavily featured Dalaran. BFA was marketed as the faction expansion, in much the same way that Legion was the class expansion. Remember those 'it matters' adverts?

And the grand total of high elven exiles seen participating in the Alliance during that period was...drumroll please...four.

One of whom was content opening portals, two who stayed on the airship in arathi shielding things and only one of whom was actually involved in any fighting. One. Now, you've cited your 'personal experience' of seeing no distrust of high elven exiles within the Alliance. Your personal experience should therefore similarly dictate that your statement of 'high elves being featured more and more in Alliance storylines's is false. The last time they had a serious presence in the Alliance was during the isle of thunder campaign in MOP, which was over seven years ago and which took place when Dalaran was an official Alliance member again which supports the idea that the participation of the only high elf force of any strength whatsoever is contingent on Dalaran's participation.

[Thalassian Bob]

I don't think the population would be dramatically shifted by playable High Elven exiles, that isn't my concern. I think that giving the Horde an aesthetically pleasing race was one of the reasons for addition of Blood Elves and that the level of interest in Blood Elves nearly twelve years later validates that design choice.

Void Elves are a 90-95% match of a Blood Elf. They are a compromise I am not keen on, but a compromise I believe most of us can live with. It looks like Blizzard went right up to the limits of their red lines in faction diversity in giving the Alliance as close a copy as they did.

Blood Elf customization options are going to be the next trigger of debate in this thread and until then we are going to tread water going over the same topics again and again. At the moment, it is reasonable to expect eye colour options, tattoos and possibly scars.

As there are no tattoos available for Blood Elves right now, there are two primary inspirations they could with. The runic style tattoos seen on the Blood Elf on the TBC box cover, and the Farstrider tattoos from Warcraft 2, one of which is sported by Alleria. My preference would, of course, to have both as options, but it may be felt that runic style tattoos are now a Nightborne thing. This would leave the 'Farstrider' options, and I believe these are probably going to be offered to Blood Elves.

Eye colour of course opens a kettle of fish due to the prediction of blue eyes for Blood Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't (Moorgard recently confirmed that a blue eyed Blood Elf named Lanesh was not a mistake, as many pro High Elfers have argued), then I believe the pro High Elf community will rage for a few days before deciding eye colour doesn't really matter. Should Blood Elves not get blue eyes, pro High Elfers will take it as proof that Blizzard sees High Elven exiles as a distinct group and they are 'reserving' the eye colour for them, although it's probably likelier they may like to keep blue eyes as unique to Void Elves (who currently sport that eye colour). If Blizzard is wise, they should grant Blood Elves a blue eye option. Blood Elves are playable. Alliance High Elf exiles are not. Denying an option to a group that is already being played to spare the feelings of the tiny group of fans of an even tinier group of NPCs is illogical.

I'd love for all those customisation options to be available for blood elves, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see. But, you're right. Until we get something concrete from Blizzard on what new blood elf options are gonna look like it's gonna be a point of cyclical contention here.

I've always been intrigued about Lanesh (and Darnarian)! Perhaps he's one of the Allerian high elves who came home or a high elf who initially stayed away from Quel'Thalas but had a change of heart later on and became a political blood elf after the Sunwell's reclamation.

And if you had some interest in the discussion, you'd already know that them being here means nothing, because by virtue of seeking dangerous power, and possibly becoming Void Elves, they forfeit their rights to be called High Elves, and failed to properly represent High Elves, instead acting like their blood elven cousins.

All a high elf is is a Thalassian elf who, for whatever reason, did not become a blood elf or void elf. Them still being a high elf says nothing about their moral character. Some high elves joined the Scourge, some joined Malygos' insane magicidal campagin and some high elves are pirates. Even the Silver Covenant contains at least one high elf who apparently practices demonology. Just because a Thalassian is still a high elf does not mean that they are a good person or that they abhor darker magics. The only thing it really tells you about them at face value is that they weren't in Quel'Thalas during the reclamation and rebuilding. (Something that actually makes me wary of them.)

[Obelisk Kai]

I'd love for all those customisation options to be available for blood elves, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see. But, you're right. Until we get something concrete from Blizzard on what new blood elf options are gonna look like it's gonna be a point of cyclical contention here.

I've always been intrigued about Lanesh (and Darnarian)! Perhaps he's one of the Allerian high elves who came home or a high elf who initially stayed away from Quel'Thalas but had a change of heart later on and became a political blood elf after the Sunwell's reclamation.

Moorgard says Lanesh's story has yet to be told, but his existence shows blue eyed Blood Elves can and should be a thing.

And yes, right now the argument is entirely cyclical...well that's not entirely true. Given developer commentary, the existence of Void Elves and the conclusion of the BFA allied race cycle, we are at the end of the race and the winners are on the podium, but some people who haven't accepted the resulted are trying to complain to the judges and everyone else is left spinning their wheels as a result.

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All a high elf is is a Thalassian elf who, for whatever reason, did not become a blood elf or void elf. Them still being a high elf says nothing about their moral character. Some high elves joined the Scourge, some joined Malygos' insane magicidal campagin and some high elves are pirates. Even the Silver Covenant contains at least one high elf who apparently practices demonology. Just because a Thalassian is still a high elf does not mean that they are a good person or that they abhor darker magics. The only thing it really tells you about them at face value is that they weren't in Quel'Thalas during the reclamation and rebuilding. (Something that actually makes me wary of them.)

Good point regarding Malygos's magical campaign. Some High Elven exiles did participate in that. This is the danger of placing these individuals on some kind of moral pedestal. They aren't perfect and many of them really are quite willing to do reckless, selfish things in return for magic. Grand Magus Telestra may have been the perfect candidate to become a Void Elf were she still with us. High Elves craving magic therefore has precedent.

[Thalassian Bob]

Moorgard says Lanesh's story has yet to be told, but his existence shows blue eyed Blood Elves can and should be a thing.

And yes, right now the argument is entirely cyclical...well that's not entirely true. Given developer commentary, the existence of Void Elves and the conclusion of the BFA allied race cycle, we are at the end of the race and the winners are on the podium, but some people who haven't accepted the resulted are trying to complain to the judges and everyone else is left spinning their wheels as a result.

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Good point regarding Malygos's magical campaign. Some High Elven exiles did participate in that. This is the danger of placing these individuals on some kind of moral pedestal. They aren't perfect and many of them really are quite willing to do reckless, selfish things in return for magic. Grand Magus Telestra may have been the perfect candidate to become a Void Elf were she still with us. High Elves craving magic therefore has precedent.

For sure. I think plenty of the Farstriders who spent most of the reclamation period out in the wilderness putting down Scourge and being away from the mana crystals placed around Silvermoon would probably canonically have blue eyes still. Or at least a less intense fel green glow than a warlock, magister or Blood Knight (pre-Sunwell reclamation).

Haha amusing analogy! ^^

I linked Telestra because she was easily accessible (for me) and recognisable. While I'm sure many high elves joined Malygos out of self-service/preservation (just like people of all races who joined his service), Telestra's motivations are actually quite intriguing and complex.

It is rumored the Grand Magus Telestra tutored Prince Kael'thas. Though she believed the Prince allying with the naga was foolish, she could not support Dalaran imprisoning her people. Malygos only needed to remind her of this betrayal to gain her as an instructor for his mage hunters.

So, like other Kirin Tor high elves, she was probably put off returning to Quel'Thalas after learning about some of Kael'thas' leadership choices, but after Malygos had reminded her of what Dalaran's leadership had apparently condoned during the Garithos affair, she seems to have gone, "Oh yeah! Fuck these guys!".
Maybe Lanesh had a similar revelation but simply decided to join the blood elves instead of Malygos and his mage hunters?

High elves craving magic absolutely has precedent though. Just look at the grisly fate of the Quel'Lithien high elves!

[Manariel]

Good point regarding Malygos's magical campaign. Some High Elven exiles did participate in that. This is the danger of placing these individuals on some kind of moral pedestal. They aren't perfect and many of them really are quite willing to do reckless, selfish things in return for magic. Grand Magus Telestra may have been the perfect candidate to become a Void Elf were she still with us. High Elves craving magic therefore has precedent.

Actually, it seems that lust for power was not the main reason behind Telestra joining Malygos. According to the Adventure Guide "Though she believed the Prince allying with the naga was foolish, she could not support Dalaran imprisoning her people. Malygos only needed to remind her of this betrayal to gain her as an instructor for his mage hunters."

I'm sure that some craven more arcane power. But those High Elves were not seeking Fel or Void Energies, sources of power which are far more unstable and corruptive than even the Arcane, by a wide margin. It doesn't mean that some High Elves can fail to uphold the values they are supposed to defend. I think there were some HE among the Twlight Hammer. But the main faction of High Elves, the Silver Covenant -and to a lesser extent the High Elves of Quel'danil - have proven to have a differnt vision on the Alliance, the Horde, the actions of Kael'thas and even the way Quel'thalas became addicted to Arcane power.

[Obelisk Kai]

Actually, it seems that lust for power was not the main reason behind Telestra joining Malygos. According to the Adventure Guide "Though she believed the Prince allying with the naga was foolish, she could not support Dalaran imprisoning her people. Malygos only needed to remind her of this betrayal to gain her as an instructor for his mage hunters."

I'm sure that some craven more arcane power. But those High Elves were not seeking Fel or Void Energies, sources of power which are far more unstable and corruptive than even the Arcane, by a wide margin. It doesn't mean that some High Elves can fail to uphold the values they are supposed to defend. I think there were some HE among the Twlight Hammer. But the main faction of High Elves, the Silver Covenant -and to a lesser extent the High Elves of Quel'danil - have proven to have a differnt vision on the Alliance, the Horde, the actions of Kael'thas and even the way Quel'thalas became addicted to Arcane power.

Your argument isn't making sense. As each example of a High Elf who is acting recklessly in the pursuit of power is brought up, you are rationalising each one away in turn to only your own satisfaction.

You say the High Elven wayfarers aren't High Elves because they are experimenting with void magic. You say Grand Magus Telestra is ok because she was seeking arcane energy, which isn't as dangerous as fel or shadow apparently (although the Night Elves would disagree) despite the fact she betrayed everyone in her pursuit of that power.

You keep insinuating High Elves have a superior moral code that defines them, and any who don't meet that level you just discount because then they are just like a Blood Elf. Does that mean all the high elves from Quel'lithien stopped being high elves once they gave into temptation and so don't qualify as another example of high elves in the reckless pursuit of power?

Ultimately, you are wrong. That isn't how people work. The High Elven exiles are written as people. People are prone to weakness, desires and ambitions The exiles are not paragons of virtue. And if your argument against High Elves being unable to become Void Elves is based on the belief that a true high elf would be too noble to do that, then that is simple naivety.

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For sure. I think plenty of the Farstriders who spent most of the reclamation period out in the wilderness putting down Scourge and being away from the mana crystals placed around Silvermoon would probably canonically have blue eyes still. Or at least a less intense fel green glow than a warlock, magister or Blood Knight (pre-Sunwell reclamation).

Haha amusing analogy! ^^

I linked Telestra because she was easily accessible (for me) and recognisable. While I'm sure many high elves joined Malygos out of self-service/preservation (just like people of all races who joined his service), Telestra's motivations are actually quite intriguing and complex.

There are plentiful reasons and paths for Blood Elves to be granted blue eyes. I suspect we will see sometime in the spring once the alpha is in full flight. I have specifically signed up for beta testing to try out the new racial customization options and to see what is on offer myself.

So, like other Kirin Tor high elves, she was probably put off returning to Quel'Thalas after learning about some of Kael'thas' leadership choices, but after Malygos had reminded her of what Dalaran's leadership had apparently condoned during the Garithos affair, she seems to have gone, "Oh yeah! Fuck these guys!".
Maybe Lanesh had a similar revelation but simply decided to join the blood elves instead of Malygos and his mage hunters?

High elves craving magic absolutely has precedent though. Just look at the grisly fate of the Quel'Lithien high elves!

Some of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran had been there since the city's founding and numbered among those who taught the first hundred humans magic as part of the pact during the Troll Wars. Just prior to the city's destruction in the Third War, it was evacuated with Jaina leading some to Kalimdor and Kael'thas returning home. Many of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran accompanied him, as they later became the Sunreavers. But some stayed behind and helped rebuild the city. These individuals made their choice here, they chose Dalaran over Quel'thalas.

The following is speculation, but for all our talk of the schism over methods of consuming magical energies, the truth is that likely applied to those Farstriders who later populated the lodges and formed the core of the Silver Covenant. The High Elf Mages who chose to remain High Elves remained High Elves because they never left to make the choice. As you say, some of Kael's decisions must have been off putting enough that when he returned to Dalaran at the head of what was left of the thalassian army, these high elf mages decided not to rejoin their nation and instead continued to serve Dalaran.

And yes, Quel'lithien is another example of high elves giving into the reckless pursuit of magic that is the hallmark of them as a people (and by that I mean all thalassians). But it seems any High Elf who shows moral weakness is no longer a High Elf and therefore doesn't count.

[Ielenia]

What you are suggesting is that the passage of time means the events described never happened.

Well, this patently, objectively, indubitably false. I never said or implied "the events from Warcraft Encyclopedia never happened". Not sure how you can derive that from me saying "a lot happened since over ten years". Unless you're not being honest in this discussion, of course.

And the grand total of high elven exiles seen participating in the Alliance during that period was...drumroll please...four.

So you're basing your argument on the false idea that "in-game population = lore population" and you expect to be taken seriously?

Also, question for you: how many pandaren do you see helping the Alliance? I remember a whooping TWO during WoD. How many in BfA? Other than the pandaren you recruit for your missions, I don't recall seeing a single pandaren. Not even an Island Expedition team (which the HEs have, mind you).

[Thalassian Bob]

There are plentiful reasons and paths for Blood Elves to be granted blue eyes. I suspect we will see sometime in the spring once the alpha is in full flight. I have specifically signed up for beta testing to try out the new racial customization options and to see what is on offer myself.

Some of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran had been there since the city's founding and numbered among those who taught the first hundred humans magic as part of the pact during the Troll Wars. Just prior to the city's destruction in the Third War, it was evacuated with Jaina leading some to Kalimdor and Kael'thas returning home. Many of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran accompanied him, as they later became the Sunreavers. But some stayed behind and helped rebuild the city. These individuals made their choice here, they chose Dalaran over Quel'thalas.

The following is speculation, but for all our talk of the schism over methods of consuming magical energies, the truth is that likely applied to those Farstriders who later populated the lodges and formed the core of the Silver Covenant. The High Elf Mages who chose to remain High Elves remained High Elves because they never left to make the choice. As you say, some of Kael's decisions must have been off putting enough that when he returned to Dalaran at the head of what was left of the thalassian army, these high elf mages decided not to rejoin their nation and instead continued to serve Dalaran.

And yes, Quel'lithien is another example of high elves giving into the reckless pursuit of magic that is the hallmark of them as a people (and by that I mean all thalassians). But it seems any High Elf who shows moral weakness is no longer a High Elf and therefore doesn't count.

If you beat MMO-Champion to the punch, you'll have to share your findings on the extended customisation with us here!

Yeah, as something of a "Thalassian patriot", I've always held the SC in contempt for not only not being there to help their brethren bring Quel'Thalas back from the brink but also actively working against Silvermoon's interests such as with their attempt to block the Sunreaver's readmission into Dalaran by any means necessary, sometimes resorting to murderous sabotage or the infamous Purge. But, I have a little more patience regarding rank and file Kirin Tor high elves because, as you say, these are elves who've probably been in Dalaran for decades or even centuries and probably see it as more their home than Quel'Thalas. And of course, the mages of Dalaran had their own dire issues to deal with in the wake of the Third War with Archimonde's highly destructive assault on the city, so it's understandable if some of them didn't rush to "answer the call". At least they don't actively work against Quel'Thalas directly.

And, yes, it would seem that we have a "No true high elf" fallacy forming...

I think it's the placing of the exiles on a pedestal that makes people so desperate to see them as playable. Everybody loves an underdog and it seem that many people think that every high elf still lingering is this defiant, downtrodden principled objector like Hawkspear, but it's simply not the case. Just like in every race, there are decent high elves and there are arsehole high elves. Just because there's only a few left, doesn't make them all angels.