Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

If you beat MMO-Champion to the punch, you'll have to share your findings on the extended customisation with us here!

I don't think anything can beat the dataminers to the punch, but it would be nice to able to look at the new customizations on my own client rather than relying on MMO. We may however get a hint sooner, as they are currently fixing elven eyes on the PTR and I am unsure if they've added blue eyes on the high elf models yet. Once they get around to doing so, IF blue eyes are intended as a Blood Elf customization, something may show in the wowhead dressing room. After all, the high elf skins are housed on the blood elf model right now, they are several blood elf skin tones with blue rather than green eyes that blood elf players cannot access. This could be the logical moment to separate them.

Yeah, as something of a "Thalassian patriot", I've always held the SC in contempt for not only not being there to help their brethren bring Quel'Thalas back from the brink but also actively working against Silvermoon's interests such as with their attempt to block the Sunreaver's readmission into Dalaran by any means necessary, sometimes resorting to murderous sabotage or the infamous Purge. But, I have a little more patience regarding rank and file Kirin Tor high elves because, as you say, these are elves who've probably been in Dalaran for decades or even centuries and probably see it as more their home than Quel'Thalas. And of course, the mages of Dalaran had their own dire issues to deal with in the wake of the Third War with Archimonde's highly destructive assault on the city, so it's understandable if some of them didn't rush to "answer the call". At least they don't actively work against Quel'Thalas directly.

They did work against Silvermoon when they stayed with Dalaran following the purge and it joined the Alliance. Different circumstances for them compared to the rangers of the SC of course, but they still had to make a choice in the end.

And, yes, it would seem that we have a "No true high elf" fallacy forming...

That's exactly what I was thinking of, the no true Scotsman fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I knew this approach was codified somewhere. Thanks for showing me what it was.

Person A: No High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics. They would rather die.
Person B: Here is a screenshot showing high elves messing with those dangerous magics. They are quite alive.
Person A: No true High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics...

I think it's the placing of the exiles on a pedestal that makes people so desperate to see them as playable. Everybody loves an underdog and it seem that many people think that every high elf still lingering is this defiant, downtrodden principled objector like Hawkspear, but it's simply not the case. Just like in every race, there are decent high elves and there are arsehole high elves. Just because there's only a few left, doesn't make them all angels.

I have to disagree a little here. I think the root cause of the desire is the same as it always has been, the desire to have the prettiest race in the game on their preferred faction. Everything else that has been said about the exiles has been the idealised version of what they seek, this mental image of the morally perfect high elf that has calqued over their desire over the years as they have waited and waited and waited.

[Doffen]

Yes, that is why it's nice to point it out.

However... To derail the conversation into pages and pages about Void elves is simply being out of the context, and the worst thing is that it has been taken into consideration just because Void elves are a form of thalassian elf, which simply misses the point entirely.

Good thing you don't decide what we can discuss then. Stop coming into the discussion we have if you don't want to hear, we are discussing something, and when someone argues something, then I want to hear their side of the argument.

[Obelisk Kai]

Well, this patently, objectively, indubitably false. I never said or implied "the events from Warcraft Encyclopedia never happened". Not sure how you can derive that from me saying "a lot happened since over ten years". Unless you're not being honest in this discussion, of course.

Because you seek to use time to discount those events, not argue that things moved on. After all, your basis for saying there is no mistrust of high elves among the Alliance was your own personal subjective experience, not that they may have won people over in the years that followed. You simply denied the mistrust existed at all.

So you're basing your argument on the false idea that "in-game population = lore population" and you expect to be taken seriously?

No, I am pointing out your hypocrisy. You discount the canon statement that high elven exiles are mistrusted because you've personally never seen anything like it in game, yet when something in game doesn't agree with your pre-conceptions, i.e. the lack of a visible high elf presence within the alliance during the biggest faction war ever, you are quick to say 'what you see in game isn't the whole story'.

As it happens, you are wrong on both counts.

The High Elven exile were mistrusted as of the end of classic, and even if they had slowly won back a measure of trust from the Alliance, any High Elven exile who becomes a Void Elf will have to face that harsh eye of scepticism all over again as they are meddling with forbidden magics.

And the High Elven exiles are not a major part of the Alliance given their canonically affirmed incredibly small population and the fact most of them live in Dalaran, which is a neutral city and which did not participate in the recent war. So what was seen in game here actually tallies with what was said out of game.

Also, question for you: how many pandaren do you see helping the Alliance? I remember a whooping TWO during WoD. How many in BfA? Other than the pandaren you recruit for your missions, I don't recall seeing a single pandaren. Not even an Island Expedition team (which the HEs have, mind you).

Pandaren don't face the same tests. They are already playable and have nothing to prove.

[Doffen]

snip

We have discussed this like 3 times now, not sure that we have to point out our arguments another time, but one thing you haven't answered:

So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

[Thalassian Bob]

I don't think anything can beat the dataminers to the punch, but it would be nice to able to look at the new customizations on my own client rather than relying on MMO.


They did work against Silvermoon when they stayed with Dalaran following the purge and it joined the Alliance. Different circumstances for them compared to the rangers of the SC of course, but they still had to make a choice in the end.


That's exactly what I was thinking of, the no true Scotsman fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I knew this approach was codified somewhere. Thanks for showing me what it was.

Person A: No High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics. They would rather die.
Person B: Here is a screenshot showing high elves messing with those dangerous magics. They are quite alive.
Person A: No true High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics...


I have to disagree a little here. I think the root cause of the desire is the same as it always has been, the desire to have the prettiest race in the game on their preferred faction. Everything else that has been said about the exiles has been the idealised version of what they seek, this mental image of the morally perfect high elf that has calqued over their desire over the years as they have waited and waited and waited.

1.) True, I did quite enjoy getting onto the MoP beta back when I modded on here!

2.) That is regrettably true. But, as we mentioned earlier, some of them have probably been in Dalaran for years so I suppose a lot of them have probably become Kirin Tor first and high elven second, so I begrudgingly understand it.

3.) No problem!

4.) You could be right there. That's no doubt a huge part of it for a lot of people. But, I think it's a blend of the two to varying degrees depending on the individual in question.

[Obelisk Kai]

We have discussed this like 3 times now, not sure that we have to point out our arguments another time, but one thing you haven't answered:

So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

Alleria is unique because of her unique nature and the unique method by which she came by her powers. But I consider her a 'High Elf' only in the sense I consider all Void Elves as high elves, as Ion Hazzikostas described them, as 'another flavour of High Elf'. Void Elves are High Elves, but a variant. The blueberry icecream to the vanilla ice cream. The Samsung galaxy S10e to the S10.

There is a difference that is fundamental to making a Void Elf, a Void Elf.

The process that transformed Void Elves was being bombarded by void energies. This provoked a skin tone shift. The gameplay rationale for why it did this is not hard to figure out given Blizzard employed skin tone shifts on multiple allied races. It was to accentuate the differences between the allied race and the parent it was based off. Blue to purple skin tones are thematically appropriate for a race built on the theme of the void.

Unlike the addition of the High Elven exiles as a distinct allied race which seems to have been comprehensively ruled out, Holinka's comments at Blizzcon 2018 shows that high elf like customization is possible on Void Elves. But possible does not mean guaranteed.
I am opposed to Void Elves receiving high elf like customization as it undermines one of the key aesthetic differences between Void Elves and Blood/High Elves. I don't think it is fair to try and turn Void Elves into ersatz tradition high elves. They can never be that. While it is perfectly possible to roleplay a Void Elf who used to be a High Elf exile, it is impossible to roleplay a Void Elf as if they never became a Void Elf and remained a High Elf. It is still a Void Elf. It is always going to be the variant and roleplayers are free to have any story they want for their toon so long as it is consistent with the origin of the character.


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1.) True, I did quite enjoy getting onto the MoP beta back when I modded on here!

2.) That is regrettably true. But, as we mentioned earlier, some of them have probably been in Dalaran for years so I suppose a lot of them have probably become Kirin Tor first and high elven second, so I begrudgingly understand it.

3.) No problem!

4.) You could be right there. That's no doubt a huge part of it for a lot of people. But, I think it's a blend of the two to varying degrees depending on the individual in question.

I don't particularly like betas, I prefer to keep as much content fresh as I possibly can. Should I get in all I will likely do is mess around with the new customization options and see how the class unpruning is going.

In regards to the desire for high elves as a distinct allied race, every individual has their own rationale for wanting them. Some probably genuinely do want them for lore based reasons. But my experience has shown that the majority are in it for the aesthetics.

[Doffen]

Alleria is unique because of her unique nature and the unique method by which she came by her powers. But I consider her a 'High Elf' only in the sense I consider all Void Elves as high elves, as Ion Hazzikostas described them, as 'another flavour of High Elf'. Void Elves are High Elves, but a variant. The blueberry icecream to the vanilla ice cream. The Samsung galaxy S10e to the S10.

There is a difference that is fundamental to making a Void Elf, a Void Elf.

The process that transformed Void Elves was being bombarded by void energies. This provoked a skin tone shift. The gameplay rationale for why it did this is not hard to figure out given Blizzard employed skin tone shifts on multiple allied races. It was to accentuate the differences between the allied race and the parent it was based off. Blue to purple skin tones are thematically appropriate for a race built on the theme of the void.

Unlike the addition of the High Elven exiles as a distinct allied race which seems to have been comprehensively ruled out, Holinka's comments at Blizzcon 2018 shows that high elf like customization is possible on Void Elves. But possible does not mean guaranteed.
I am opposed to Void Elves receiving high elf like customization as it undermines one of the key aesthetic differences between Void Elves and Blood/High Elves. I don't think it is fair to try and turn Void Elves into ersatz tradition high elves. They can never be that. While it is perfectly possible to roleplay a Void Elf who used to be a High Elf exile, it is impossible to roleplay a Void Elf as if they never became a Void Elf and remained a High Elf. It is still a Void Elf. It is always going to be the variant and roleplayers are free to have any story they want for their toon so long as it is consistent with the origin of the character.

Then there wouldn't much point to RP as High Elf if there is nothing about about that character that resembles a High Elf. People might RP as they like, but I highly doubt people who are interested in High Elves would settle for that. If they could turn into the way Alleria turned into the void, a more controlled transformation then there could be a possibility.

I mean, if they recruit now, it would be logical that they do it in a controlled matter, aka Alleria way. So far the Void Elves we play with are the ones that came with Magister Umbric. Giving a going out of form thing like Alleria would go with the idea that they are recruiting. If the story reflect this, then I can't see why not. It wouldn't make everyone happy, and nothing ever does, but that would actually show what are you are trying to get through, that Alliance High Elves also go the Void Elven way. So far nothing in the game reflect this directly, but changing this customization would change a lot.

[Ielenia]

Because you seek to use time to discount those events, not argue that things moved on.

No, that's your misinterpretation of what I wrote. I never wrote or implied those events never happened. This is just you reading what you want to read because you want an argument.

No, I am pointing out your hypocrisy.

There is no hypocrisy because, again, you are basing your argument on a false premise.

Pandaren don't face the same tests. They are already playable and have nothing to prove.

Assuming you missed the point accidentally: the pandaren are proof that 'NPC representation' arguments don't hold water.

[Oswen]

I expect lots of rage here and in other places when Blood Elves will inevitably get blue eyes as new customizations.
It *will* feel like a slap in Alliance players faces and I don't approve it but it seems inevitable at this point.

I'm also pretty sure, however, that Void Elves will see Alleria-like skins available at some point in the future as a final compromise but with things like Wildhammer dwarves, Sand Trolls etc being baked in as simple customizations I cannot see any future for High Elves as their own race/allied race, if there ever was one to begin with.

[Aldo Hawk]

Good thing you don't decide what we can discuss then. Stop coming into the discussion we have if you don't want to hear, we are discussing something, and when someone argues something, then I want to hear their side of the argument.

Except that argument is detrimental to the thread, since it's giving importance to things that don't actually have it in regards to the matter at hand.

[Kithelle]

It's like having 1 albino exemplar of the species in a million and demand that this rare phenotype is the rule, and the majority is an outlier.
Totally moronic.

High Elves are a minority which will go extinct. No matter how hard they cling to their "true" name, they are irrelevant. And thus should not be in the game as PCs.

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The blue eyes option should be there for Blood Elves, namely the arcanists.
Void Elves have been drastically altered by the Void and should not look like High Elves anymore. And if they assimilate other Thallasian Elves, no matter where these come from, they also change to the Void pattern. Just like Lightforged Draenei have their specifics which differentiate them from normal Draenei.

Enough with more Elves, anyway. Give Stormwind Humans a Half-Elf customization option if anything, and be done with that. Half-Elves have more future potential in the Alliance.

You're right...you're right since we have no actual numbers and we keep seeing more new High Elven characters as expansions go by...but you're right. We also have a race that is literally described as a crack team...so numbers don't matter, but you're right.

I'm sure there are also millions of Forsaken running around...has to be 10 million MechaGnomes...Goblin island was practically destroyed and it's safe to say many died because they couldn't escape...but there is probably least a few million Goblins running around? I'm sure the Draenei were lightforging everyone they could right? Safe to imagine the entirety of Orcs on Draenor managed to escape right?

Stop pretending like made up numbers matter...especially when there isn't even a figure for said numbers.

[Starla]

I expect lots of rage here and in other places when Blood Elves will inevitably get blue eyes as new customizations.
It *will* feel like a slap in Alliance players faces and I don't approve it but it seems inevitable at this point.

I'm also pretty sure, however, that Void Elves will see Alleria-like skins available at some point in the future as a final compromise but with things like Wildhammer dwarves, Sand Trolls etc being baked in as simple customizations I cannot see any future for High Elves as their own race/allied race, if there ever was one to begin with.

No one is justified to feel that they're getting a 'slap in the face' over giving a playable race in the game now a new customization.
Also....really don't believe you're giving helfers a fair shake by assuming they're immature enough to be raging over what Blood Elves get.

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Except that argument is detrimental to the thread, since it's giving importance to things that don't actually have it in regards to the matter at hand.

Like it or not, Void Elves are part of the discussion of High Elves.

[Manariel]

Like it or not, Void Elves are part of the discussion of High Elves.

Only because anti-HE brings them here. They have zero reason to be evoked, because they are a different flavor of High Elves, like Ion Said. And if he had been correct, he should have said that they are a different flavor of Thalassian Elves.

And they are one which has never been requested, and I suspect that their success come neither from their lore nor powers, but because a lot of people somehow either ended with one as a main whitout it being intended and don't want to spit a lot of money just for a race change, or because they RP them as High Elves.

But beyond those points, the Void Elves have no bearing on a High Elven discussion beyond perhaps facilitating their addition to the roster of playable Alliance races, now that the Thalassian model is in the Alliance. And if Blizzard was a little intelligent, they could use the skin of a different skeleton, with differing emotes, stances, etc. and it'd be easier to differentiate a HE from a BE than a VE from a BE.

[Doffen]

Except that argument is detrimental to the thread, since it's giving importance to things that don't actually have it in regards to the matter at hand.

I doubt 4 posts each, a page if you like would do anything to this thread. You don't suddenly stop responding to people either, but there is nothing wrong in doing that when you know you are correct about something. And this is a High Elf megathread, we have discussed everything from Night Elves to Gnomes here, some Void elf vs High Elf discussion is something within this thread's relevancy. And very much so.

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Only because anti-HE brings them here. They have zero reason to be evoked, because they are a different flavor of High Elves, like Ion Said. And if he had been correct, he should have said that they are a different flavor of Thalassian Elves.

And they are one which has never been requested, and I suspect that their success come neither from their lore nor powers, but because a lot of people somehow either ended with one as a main whitout it being intended and don't want to spit a lot of money just for a race change, or because they RP them as High Elves.

But beyond those points, the Void Elves have no bearing on a High Elven discussion beyond perhaps facilitating their addition to the roster of playable Alliance races, now that the Thalassian model is in the Alliance. And if Blizzard was a little intelligent, they could use the skin of a different skeleton, with differing emotes, stances, etc. and it'd be easier to differentiate a HE from a BE than a VE from a BE.

I am not anti High Elf, but if you can't see that Void Elves got everything to do with High Elves you are in the wrong thread.

[Zantos]

And if Blizzard was a little intelligent, they could use the skin of a different skeleton, with differing emotes, stances, etc. and it'd be easier to differentiate a HE from a BE than a VE from a BE.

I am curious. How would they be easier to differentiate? How do you make two members of the same race, but calling themselves different names, look different enough that they would be easier to tell apart then void elves / blood elves?

Interestingly enough, if you watch the sunwell, patch 2.4 trailerYou hear all about how they just changed their name to blood elves. You even see their original blue eyes. So you see that they are 1 in the same. So how would you really make them different to the point that at first glance, they look like 2 different races while actually being the same race?

[Aldo Hawk]

I am curious. How would they be easier to differentiate? How do you make two members of the same race, but calling themselves different names, look different enough that they would be easier to tell apart then void elves / blood elves?

use the skin of a different skeleton, with differing emotes, stances, etc.

Interestingly enough, if you watch the sunwell, patch 2.4 trailerYou hear all about how they just changed their name to blood elves. You even see their original blue eyes. So you see that they are 1 in the same. So how would you really make them different to the point that at first glance, they look like 2 different races while actually being the same race?

Like Kul'tiran humans?

I mean, Manariel even presented an idea that is not that drastic... A slight change on silhouette does wonders on differentiation. That is why you mistake Void elf and Blood elf players out in the world.

[Starla]

I am curious. How would they be easier to differentiate? How do you make two members of the same race, but calling themselves different names, look different enough that they would be easier to tell apart then void elves / blood elves?

Interestingly enough, if you watch the sunwell, patch 2.4 trailerYou hear all about how they just changed their name to blood elves. You even see their original blue eyes. So you see that they are 1 in the same. So how would you really make them different to the point that at first glance, they look like 2 different races while actually being the same race?

There is no reasonable lore friendly way to make them look different, imo.

[FlubberPuddy]

There is no reasonable lore friendly way to make them look different, imo.

In a made up game with made up creatures and made up stories, it's unreasonable to say there's "no reasonable lore friendly way to make them look different", imo.

As an example: Darkspear trolls are now going to get blood troll customization. The same blood trolls that still now are fierce enemies of the horde, and in shadowlands that's not changing.

Because there will be no lore that explains why desert and blood trolls are now butt buddies with the Horde and Darkspear. It's just going to happen. Gameplay > Lore.

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Also @Thalassian Bob thank you. @Obelisk Kai keep thinking you can dictate what people can RP as or not. It just keeps looking more inane.

[Aldo Hawk]

High elves can always get customisation options that set them apart from Blood elves, it doesn't have to be too drastic of a change to make them be another thing and it would just have to be things that they don't share with Blood elves, period.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I'm glad to see the conversation of this "epic" thread -- which started with pro-HE people wanting and almost demanding playable HE's for the Alliance -- now having said pro-HE people compromising with HE customizations for Blood Elves instead.


Which means they'd still have to play Horde... lmao.