Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Not sure how it took so many posts of discussion for you to understand that. Yes it’s that simple.

It also doesn’t exclude someone from asking for additional race customization to be added on top of what you wrote above.

Just like how people would RP their green Orcs as Mag’har and still ask for Mag’har Orcs to be playable in the Horde.

Just like how people would RP their dwarves as Wildhammer and still ask for Wildhammer to be playable in the Alliance.

So with the High Elf situation, it’s not a 0/1 system.

You can RP your Void Elf as a High Elf, yet also continue to ask for additional High Elf customization in the Alliance, especially since High Elves already do exist in the Alliance faction.

As with the pic Shakana shared, we see a modified Void Elf hairstyle coming to Blood Elves, therefore the same race sharing customization options looks to be something Blizzard accepts doing. At least atm based on that pic finding.

No, I understand it fine. My mistake was in presuming that you were attempting to find a victory in the minds of other people, to argue that they would have to accept your Void Elf as a High Elf under certain circumstances. Now that you've made clear what you really mean is simply a fantasy they will tell themselves , I find it's a victory I can live with. Like the one many people have imagined themselves during their childhood, of scoring the winning goal for your country in a world cup final. It's one devoid of genuine meaning and substance given how contrary such a fantasy is to the reality of void elf, but merely harmless make believe that has to deal with entropic embrace proccing every minute or so.

As for Shakana's picture, that's a fan-edit. And hairstyles have been shared before between races, so as an example it's fairly meaningless.

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't matter what were the relations between high elves and humans because things evolved from that, as shown in-game, as we have more and more high elves being active participant in the Alliance matters.

The only thing shown in game is that the high elves operate mostly within Dalaran where they have had a long term presence and only occasionally do they venture into Stormwind. You cannot say for sure that the entire Alliance now views a group they will have had barely any interaction with in a positive light.

Even if they had managed to overcome that mistrust, the Alliance population has fresh reasons to mistrust the Void Elves given their dabbling with dangerous, forbidden magics.

[Ielenia]

The only thing shown in game is that the high elves operate mostly within Dalaran where they have had a long term presence and only occasionally do they venture into Stormwind. You cannot say for sure that the entire Alliance now views a group they will have had barely any interaction with in a positive light.

I guess you are ignoring forgetting about the high elf in one of the Island Expedition teams? And ignoring forgetting about the high elves who are part of the 7th Legion?

[elbleuet]

Dalaran declared neutrality the moment they reinvited the Horde back in during Legion. This is why Jaina left.

Khadgar leads the Council of Six, and in the Legion epilogue quests in Silithus declared he had fought beside Horde and Alliance and would not choose between them. Dalaran persisted in it's neutrality during the course of Legion where the number of Kirin Tor mages or Kirin Tor forces assisting the Alliance war effort was zero.

That doesn't change the fact the Council of 6 is led by an Alliance character, I'm sorry for you.

“Khadgar is an Alliance character willing to give quests to individual Horde heroes he trusts.” Dave Kosak.

Dalaran is an Alliance nation willing to work with the Horde for the greater good. That's why Aethas was not voted back to the Council of 6 and probably never will.

Face it. Dalaran will never fight for the Horde. But Dalaran can fight for the Alliance eventually.

The high elven exiles did not have a meaningful participation in the war. The only high elven exile we have evidence for who actually struck a blow for the Alliance was Frostfencer Seraphi.

That's already enough given High elves aren't a playable race.

[FlubberPuddy]

No, I understand it fine. My mistake was in presuming that you were attempting to find a victory in the minds of other people, to argue that they would have to accept your Void Elf as a High Elf under certain circumstances. Now that you've made clear what you really mean is simply a fantasy they will tell themselves , I find it's a victory I can live with. Like the one many people have imagined themselves during their childhood, of scoring the winning goal for your country in a world cup final. It's one devoid of genuine meaning and substance given how contrary such a fantasy is to the reality of void elf, but merely harmless make believe that has to deal with entropic embrace proccing every minute or so.

This spiel here likely tells me you probably avoid RPers because it's pretty run-of-the-mill they do often. If you ever peruse RP servers you will see it in effect (I don't personally partake in RP, but sometimes I'll take a gander on em to read the TRPs once in a blue moon).

You'll also run into people that don't RP on them, but respect those that do.

Then you'll also run into people doing what you do here, who pretty typically get shunned by the community.

As for Shakana's picture, that's a fan-edit. And hairstyles have been shared before between races, so as an example it's fairly meaningless.

Ah my mistake, I assume people wouldn't just randomly share fan-edits as if they're upcoming features datamined because that'd be a pretty useless thing to do.

[Obelisk Kai]

That doesn't change the fact the Council of 6 is led by an Alliance character, I'm sorry for you.

“Khadgar is an Alliance character willing to give quests to individual Horde heroes he trusts.” Dave Kosak.

Dalaran is an Alliance nation willing to work with the Horde for the greater good. That's why Aethas was not voted back to the Council of 6 and probably never will.

Face it. Dalaran will never fight the Horde. But Dalaran can fight for the Alliance eventually.

Why are you sorry for me? Jaina was Alliance in Cataclysm and early MOP and that didn't change the fact Dalaran was a neutral country until she actively declared for the Alliance following the purge. You know, just before they began fighting the Horde?

And Aethas wasn't voted back into the Council of Six because he came back to Dalaran in a personal capacity (the Sunreavers have been folded into the Blood Elf and hence the Horde military), because while he had done enough to re-earn admission there is still some distrust and because the council is full, with Kalec having replaced him and Jaina's status being ambiguous because she wasn't dead nor had they kicked her out.

More to the point, if Dalaran was an Alliance nation they'd have fought on the side of the Alliance during the war.

They didn't. Hence, they are neutral.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess you are ignoring forgetting about the high elf in one of the Island Expedition teams? And ignoring forgetting about the high elves who are part of the 7th Legion?

You mean the ones I've listed repeatedly to demonstrate the contribution from the high elves was pitiful? Hard to argue they are an important part of the Alliance when only one did any real fighting.

- - - Updated - - -

This spiel here likely tells me you probably avoid RPers because it's pretty run-of-the-mill they do often. If you ever peruse RP servers you will see it in effect (I don't personally partake in RP, but sometimes I'll take a gander on em to read the TRPs once in a blue moon).

You'll also run into people that don't RP on them, but respect those that do.

Then you'll also run into people doing what you do here, who pretty typically get shunned by the community.

Actually I've never encountered an RP'er in game at all. I don't play on an RP server. I take issue with the attempt to find some way to pretend you are a high elf by using a Void Elf because I actually find that a pretty shitty attitude towards the two thalassian races the game currently has. Neither it seems are good enough and Void Elves already have to deal with enough animosity from the pro High Elf community unhappy they aren't exactly what was wanted. Void Elves should be respected as their own thing with their own narrative.

The best roleplaying in my opinion would be those whose characters actually make sense, and as they make sense would flow into the overarching story of the game.

But this other approach, where a high elf can be a void elf, a green orc can be a mag'har and a human could be a really tall gnome, that's just nonsensical. If people want to do that, that's fine, but what they can't expect is other people to play along or indulge them.

[elbleuet]

More to the point, if Dalaran was an Alliance nation they'd have fought on the side of the Alliance during the war.

No since Dalaran is an Alliance nation neutral to the Horde.

You can be neutral AND Alliance the same way you can be neutral AND Horde. You do not have to fought on the side of the Alliance to be recognized as being part of it. That's your own definition of what's being Alliance.

Khadgar did not fight the Horde a single time since WoW yet he's described as an Alliance character by Blizzard, so you're pretty wrong on that matter.

[FlubberPuddy]

Actually I've never encountered an RP'er in game at all. I don't play on an RP server.

Yeah that was pretty obvious once you started trying to imply there's only a certain way to RP. When RP in itself is very open to interpretation. I don't play on an RP server either, just meant I take a gander on em now and then because I never play on em.

That's why I've been using the examples I have. Because there are players that are actually doing those things and have been for a long while. I am speaking from what I've seen.

But this other approach, where a high elf can be a void elf, a green orc can be a mag'har and a human could be a really tall gnome, that's just nonsensical. If people want to do that, that's fine, but what they can't expect is other people to play along or indulge them.

Exactly (the bold). Likewise, no one is required or beholden to your standards nor requires your approval for how they want to RP. Exactly as I've been saying all along. The people who do wanna RP with them, will. The ones who don't, won't. Everyone wins.

- - - Updated - - -

During the chaos, Grand Magister Rommath noted that, "It unsettles me to have to fight directly with the high elves of the Silver Covenant...but I never tire of slaying Alliance."

BOOM, it was there all along. Now the people who say Silver Covenant are neutral can hopefully stfu about it. Straight from the Blood Elven Magister himself.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

Silver Covenant are de-facto Alliance.

[Aldo Hawk]

During the chaos, Grand Magister Rommath noted that, "It unsettles me to have to fight directly with the high elves of the Silver Covenant...but I never tire of slaying Alliance."

BOOM, it was there all along. Now the people who say Silver Covenant are neutral can hopefully stfu about it. Straight from the Blood Elven Magister himself.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

Silver Covenant are de-facto Alliance.

Sad thing that we have to get all pedantic about this, but yeah, thanks for providing the quote. I did the purge of Dalaran questline some time ago and forgot about these lines, but yeah. Tell me about those who call us 'flat earthers of wow' while ignoring plain common knowledge...

I'm gonna take advantage of this post to also point out again that it's kinda silly to see people getting defensive with possible High elf customization options DEMANDING those for Blood elves while at the same time not demanding for what Void elves have. And it's even sillier when these same people don't stop repeating that Void elves are the High elves of the Alliance or a variation of High elf, obviously by surpassing logical barriers as Void elves coming from Blood elves, not High elves, and twisting it into saying that because Blood elves are High elves then Void elves are High elves, when that is a missrepresentation of the point. Let's talk about demagogy, hah.

Because, obviously, a High elf would never mind to be mistaken for a Blood elf and viceversa, isn't it?

[FlubberPuddy]

Because, obviously, a High elf would never mind to be mistaken for a Blood elf and viceversa, isn't it?

I think it is quite silly when anyone who says Void Elves are the Alliance’s version of high elves while Blood Elves are the Horde’s version then gets defensive about those who ask for high elf customization on Void Elves.

It becomes pretty apparent there is no compromise wanting to be reached (not that there ever was with those kind of people) and they’re most likely just hoping the high elves of the Alliance never become a playable aesthetic in any form.

As for the last portion here, it is very established that there’s a lot of animosity between High Elves and Blood Elves and Rommath’s quote from the purge continues to reinforce it (as well as Vereesa’s delight in cracking down then too).

But Blizzard has also been in the habit of retconning whatever they want and I believe it was former Blizzard employees themselves that said something like there’s only 2 people from the original Blizzard that continue to be there and it’s an entirely different entity now that it has grown.

I kind of see Shadowlands and beyond of the WoW team’s way to take a break from Azerothian lore for a bit, have us basically adventure in lands that are not beholden to any existing rules/lore of Azeroth so that they can do a sort of “fresh start” going forward.

Probably why all the new customizations and the amount of them are coming in too, and why the leveling is getting revamped, etc. it’s all an attempt to sort of make a clean slate.

[Aldo Hawk]

It becomes pretty apparent there is no compromise wanting to be reached (not that there ever was with those kind of people) and they’re most likely just hoping the high elves of the Alliance never become a playable aesthetic in any form.

It gets better when the phrases: 'I care about the lore' or 'I disagree because I respect the lore' are spouted alongside that stance.

The problem here is that asking for playable High elves is undoubtedly something that goes alongside what the lore is, since High elves are part of the Alliance, but for some reason the existence of Blood elves create some sort of cognitive dissonance on all of this.

High elves are not Blood elves, nor are Void elves, nor are Horde nor Void infused people. They have been seen alongside the Alliance since world of warcraft started, Warcraft III or any previous iteration are not even needed to point out the fact. Asking for High elves to be playable is lore friendly, asking for them to not be playable because Blood elves are Horde is not only lore unfriendly, but pretty unrelated. Ion Hazzikostas is a human being, not a god with omniscience and the capability of transforming words into truth.

[FlubberPuddy]

but for some reason the existence of Blood elves create some sort of cognitive dissonance on all of this.

Especially funny when more often than not the spotlight on Blood Elves is usually when they're talking about the differences/animosity between them and the High Elves.

We haven't had a whole lot of Blood Elf lore that focuses strictly on them and not other Thalassians. This is very different from how for instance we've had multitudes of exploration into Troll culture with each of the different tribes that isn't tied to revolving around another Troll tribe.

The Blood Elf and High Elf groups racial infighting is as intertwined as Alliance v Horde at this point. Recent example: Sunreavers in the War Campaign referencing the Purge of Dalaran which heavily featured High Elf v Blood Elf animosity/hatred and where their faction allegiances lie.

[Ielenia]

You mean the ones I've listed repeatedly to demonstrate the contribution from the high elves was pitiful? Hard to argue they are an important part of the Alliance when only one did any real fighting.

So you're going with the erroneous "in-game population = lore population" argument? "There is only one single high elf fighting for the Alliance." I expected more of you.

[Aldo Hawk]

So you're going with the erroneous "in-game population = lore population" argument? "There is only one single high elf fighting for the Alliance." I expected more of you.

I would not entertain such arguments, since the principal focus is High elves being part of the Alliance, and therefore people asking to have them playable on their respective faction.

This is NOT a competition about who did more, which totally misses the point and it's nothing more than mere filler. That dude doesn't like playable High elves, and that doesn't mean everything he spouts has to be taken into consideration. As for example, this useless point.

The matter is about wether or not High elves are Alliance, which they are. Not how much they have done in comparison to playable races.

[Obelisk Kai]

No since Dalaran is an Alliance nation neutral to the Horde.

You can be neutral AND Alliance the same way you can be neutral AND Horde. You do not have to fought on the side of the Alliance to be recognized as being part of it. That's your own definition of what's being Alliance.

Khadgar did not fight the Horde a single time since WoW yet he's described as an Alliance character by Blizzard, so you're pretty wrong on that matter.

Individuals can be aligned to either faction, but when they live in Dalaran they are neutral. Hence the Sunreavers 'owed fealty' to the Horde, yet when Thalen Songweaver was allowed to assist the defence of Dalaran it was because he was doing so as part of a neutral delegation of Dalaran mages. Loyalty to Dalaran and the Kirin Tor and it's stance of neutrality supersedes loyalty to the Alliance and Horde. Dalaran itself is not a person, it is a political state and it is neutral, neither Alliance or Horde.

In order for those 7th Legion Shield Mages to even act on behalf of the Alliance during the Fourth War, they had to do so as part of the 7th Legion and not as a part of the Silver Covenant. If you are a member of the Silver Covenant, you clearly have to put Dalaran first even if everyone knows of the pronounced Alliance lean of that organisation.

- - - Updated - - -

During the chaos, Grand Magister Rommath noted that, "It unsettles me to have to fight directly with the high elves of the Silver Covenant...but I never tire of slaying Alliance."

BOOM, it was there all along. Now the people who say Silver Covenant are neutral can hopefully stfu about it. Straight from the Blood Elven Magister himself.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

Silver Covenant are de-facto Alliance.

During the chaos is the operative phrase here.

Everyone knew that the Silver Covenant had a pronounced Alliance lean just as everyone knew the Sunreavers had a pronounced Horde lean. They were not neutral because they wanted to be, but because the politics of their city home demanded that they should be neutral.

So when he arrives, he basically finds his suspicions confirmed. The Silver Covenant has been let loose and Jaina is conducting a purge of the Horde population of the city. At this point, Dalaran has clearly abandoned neutrality and declared for the Alliance. This means the Silver Covenant are also no longer technically neutral, but are an active Alliance fighting force.

His line therefore should be read as resigned, grim determination to deal with those who have shown their true colours, the true colours he has known were always there.

Yet this political situation has passed. To fight the Burning Legion, Dalaran again had to let the Horde in. By letting the Horde in, they had to re-establish neutrality. By re-establishing neutrality, they left the Alliance again. This has been reinforced by Khadgar saying he would not play a role in the upcoming war as he had fought beside both Alliance and Horde. No Kirin Tor forces fought beside the Alliance. And no Silver Covenant forces have been seen, beyond TWO seventh legion shield mages whose association with the the Silver Covenant was only divined from datamining.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're going with the erroneous "in-game population = lore population" argument? "There is only one single high elf fighting for the Alliance." I expected more of you.

As I said, this is an example of hypocrisy. You discount the idea that High Elves are mistrusted because in personal experience in-game you've not encountered any.

Yet when the in-game representation of high elven exile numbers fighting for the Alliance is less than you can count on the fingers of one hand, you resort to the in-game representation not matching the lore population.

The thing is, I am not relying on the in game representation alone. I am relying on the numerous occasions the high elf exile population has been cited as vanishingly low. The tiny coterie represented in game actually tallies with the lore population out of game.

[Shakana]

Ah my mistake, I assume people wouldn't just randomly share fan-edits as if they're upcoming features datamined because that'd be a pretty useless thing to do.

It's indeed a fan made, wish it was datamined

[FlubberPuddy]

Snip

So what you're saying is Silver Covenant were Alliance then, and Silver Covenant are Alliance now as its members are participating and supporting the Alliance during a Warfront.

Awesome

[Obelisk Kai]

So what you're saying is Silver Covenant were Alliance then, and Silver Covenant are Alliance now as its members are participating and supporting the Alliance during a Warfront.

Awesome

No I am saying the individual members are Alliance aligned but the Silver Covenant as an organisation is neutral. The Silver Covenant could only participate directly in the war against the Horde during Pandaria because Dalaran declared for the Alliance during the purge.

In the Fourth War, Dalaran remained neutral and the Silver Covenant did not participate. Some members of the Silver Covenant, in fact we can confirm only two, joined the 7th Legion in order to fight in the war.

But so long as they are an active member of the Silver Covenant, they are neutral. When they take off that uniform they can declare themselves as Alliance.

A real world example is the United Nations. When my father served in the UN peacekeeping forces in Cyprus he did not go as a member of the Irish Defense Forces. He went as a UN Peacekeeper. Ireland's attitudes towards the Cyprus conflict were irrelevant to his status as he was operating under the UN.

The Sunreavers, the parallel organisation for the Horde, had to be 'added' to the Blood Elf military following their expulsion. They still haven't gone back and are actively fighting as a part of the Horde. The Silver Covenant remained and as soon as Dalaran left the Alliance at the start of Legion, so did their organisation.

[Ielenia]

As I said, this is an example of hypocrisy. You discount the idea that High Elves are mistrusted because in personal experience in-game you've not encountered any.

Yet when the in-game representation of high elven exile numbers fighting for the Alliance is less than you can count on the fingers of one hand, you resort to the in-game representation not matching the lore population.

There is absolutely zero hypocrisy in what I'm writing, despite your attempts at frame my words as such.

I "discount" the idea of high elves being mistrusted because that's what the game has been showing us since TBC: more and more high elves in the Alliance, even in the military.

By the way: you can also count the "in-game representation" of the dark iron dwarves in WoW, prior to BfA (when they were announced as a future Allied Race) in one hand, from Cataclysm to Legion.

The thing is, I am not relying on the in game representation alone. I am relying on the numerous occasions the high elf exile population has been cited as vanishingly low. The tiny coterie represented in game actually tallies with the lore population out of game.

"Vanishingly low". Look at you, making hyperbole and trying to pass it as fact.

The high elf population may be low now, and yet void elves, who are even fewer in numbers, are playable. And before you say "but they can make more void elves", two things: first, we have not yet been shown that to be true. In Telogrus' Rift, we don't see a single elf being converted into a void elf.

And on top of that, there are many, many ways of boosting the high elf population. From undiscovered lands to even different dimensions.

[Aucald]

No I am saying the individual members are Alliance aligned but the Silver Covenant as an organisation is neutral. The Silver Covenant could only participate directly in the war against the Horde during Pandaria because Dalaran declared for the Alliance during the purge.

I don't think this is the case from either a lore or gameplay standpoint, myself. The Silver Covenant was created in response to the creation of the Sunreaver faction by Aethas, itself explicitly designed to give the Horde access to Dalaran and a presence there. It literally has its origins as a partisan organization designed to counter the presence of the other faction. Silver Covenant NPC's are tagged as Alliance, just as the Sunreavers are Horde, and the Silver Covenant location of WotLK-era Dalaran is flagged Alliance-only with Horde members ported out. While the NPC's may not be openly hostile and attack on sight this is pretty far from neutral, and Horde members are very obviously unwelcome and denied access to Silver Covenant territory (the same being true of the Sunreavers for Alliance members).

With Silver Covenant NPC's quite literally Alliance flagged, I would say they're not neutral at all. Nor are the Sunreavers, for that matter.

[Doffen]

No I am saying the individual members are Alliance aligned but the Silver Covenant as an organisation is neutral. The Silver Covenant could only participate directly in the war against the Horde during Pandaria because Dalaran declared for the Alliance during the purge.

In the Fourth War, Dalaran remained neutral and the Silver Covenant did not participate. Some members of the Silver Covenant, in fact we can confirm only two, joined the 7th Legion in order to fight in the war.

But so long as they are an active member of the Silver Covenant, they are neutral. When they take off that uniform they can declare themselves as Alliance.

A real world example is the United Nations. When my father served in the UN peacekeeping forces in Cyprus he did not go as a member of the Irish Defense Forces. He went as a UN Peacekeeper. Ireland's attitudes towards the Cyprus conflict were irrelevant to his status as he was operating under the UN.

The Sunreavers, the parallel organisation for the Horde, had to be 'added' to the Blood Elf military following their expulsion. They still haven't gone back and are actively fighting as a part of the Horde. The Silver Covenant remained and as soon as Dalaran left the Alliance at the start of Legion, so did their organisation.

As much as the respect I have for your father for his work in the UN, it's not a relevant comparison. It is relevant if Cyprus and Ireland were enemies at that time, were they? Even then I would be careful with those comparisons, the world of Azeroth is not similar to the real world.

The Silver Covenant sides with the Alliance, no matter how relevant they are now. They are not neutral. They don't do anything but to kill Horde if they get the chance. They are siding with Alliance even in peace times. That you say that the Sunreavers are always horde but the Covenant is not always Alliance doesn't bode well with me.