1. #13841
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Alleria is not a traditional High Elf, she is a Void Elf who was a High Elf and was never a Blood Elf.

    All Void Elves are thalassian elves. The vast majority likely are former Blood Elves simply because we know the number of High Elven exiles are incredibly low. But a Void Elf player can chose an origin of a High Elven exile in their own mind and nothing in game contradicts that.
    So, I want to go further into this. Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

    Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?
    Last edited by Doffen; 2019-12-08 at 11:40 AM.

  2. #13842
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Yeah, there's probably as many reasons as there are Quel'dorei stragglers, just like how in the real world people emigrate for a myriad of reasons.

    Also, relevant to our prior discussion of void elf malleability in the context of Umbric's spiel:


    (Just spoke to Alleria after a transmog run)

    If the Alliance are going to call into question the loyalties of a hero immortalised in marble at the gates of SW, what chance does a SC or Kirin Tor Quel'dorei grunt who decides to go void have?!
    Every little thing found just reinforces that you are free to roleplay your Void Elf however you want.

    As one of the first transformed by the abortive ritual? You can do that. As a high elf of the silver covenant tired of the ambiguity and who craves something more? You can do that. As a Blood Elf whose interest in the void finally overcomes whatever loyalty they have to their people and who will submit to the Alliance in order to wield these magics? You can do that.

    Absolutely nothing in the game prohibits a Void Elf player from playing their character the way they want to. With one proviso, that the character actually is a Void Elf who hears the whispers and who would be mistrusted by the Alliance at large either because they are messing with these forbidden magics or because, as a thalassian elf, their loyalties are suspect.

  3. #13843
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Every little thing found just reinforces that you are free to roleplay your Void Elf however you want.

    As one of the first transformed by the abortive ritual? You can do that. As a high elf of the silver covenant tired of the ambiguity and who craves something more? You can do that. As a Blood Elf whose interest in the void finally overcomes whatever loyalty they have to their people and who will submit to the Alliance in order to wield these magics? You can do that.

    Absolutely nothing in the game prohibits a Void Elf player from playing their character the way they want to. With one proviso, that the character actually is a Void Elf who hears the whispers and who would be mistrusted by the Alliance at large either because they are messing with these forbidden magics or because, as a thalassian elf, their loyalties are suspect.
    My Void Elves RP as being trusted by the Alliance. Except one rogue who is undercover for Silvermoon.

    Glad blizzard didn't put any rules how people can RP, even though some random forum-user try to.

  4. #13844
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Every little thing found just reinforces that you are free to roleplay your Void Elf however you want.

    As one of the first transformed by the abortive ritual? You can do that. As a high elf of the silver covenant tired of the ambiguity and who craves something more? You can do that. As a Blood Elf whose interest in the void finally overcomes whatever loyalty they have to their people and who will submit to the Alliance in order to wield these magics? You can do that.

    Absolutely nothing in the game prohibits a Void Elf player from playing their character the way they want to. With one proviso, that the character actually is a Void Elf who hears the whispers and who would be mistrusted by the Alliance at large either because they are messing with these forbidden magics or because, as a thalassian elf, their loyalties are suspect.
    Mhmm. Which is why I'd like more people to get on board with Ren'dorei likely being the only playable Thalassians on the Alliance for the foreseeable future. Not just to reduce the boot indentations on this dead horse discussion, but for player's own enjoyment of the game! Granted, I think it'd be nice to have a few more non-Skrillex or tentacled hairstyles and a wider array of hair colours in the customisation options (which will hopefully come in a later Shadowlands patch (maybe with some magister rune tattoos)), but high elf fans refusing to embrace the Ren'dorei as a potential evolution of the group they are so impassioned about is just gonna cause grief without resolution for probably quite a while to come. Maybe it never will.

    I can totally sympathise with the argument of people saying they asked for vanilla ice cream but they got a blackcurrant sorbet and are expected to enjoy it just as much as the thing they actually requested, but I think people are gonna need to try and accept the compromise.

    I think Blizzard could please a considerable number of high elf fans (though not all) and get some of the heat off their backs by just making one of the void elf NPCs in Shadowlands someone like Summoner Nolric, a Kirin Tor magister or one of the named Silver Covenant members from the Argent Tournament or something. Then people could see a void elf can canonically be a Thalassian who never went Horde and I reckon a fair few people from this thread would be more into the purple flavoured compromise.

  5. #13845
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Every Void Elf in the game is former Blood Elf. Alleria is their leader. But every Void Elf, both playable and npc's came with Magister Umbric. I like how you try to shift goalpost though. So my statement is correct, no matter how much you want to RP.
    No, you cannot confirm that. As stated Void Elf numbers in game do not match the paltry few who were present at the initial transformation. Were that the case, the suicide mission undertaken in Nazmir would already have wiped that group out several times over. The mismatch between the numbers depicted in game and Umbric's initial group was the source of the question posed to Moorgard.

    And your statement is incorrect, as Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner (also the first Void Elf) was never a Blood Elf, and yet is a Void Elf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, like always, a comparison that is just the same as Alleria/Void Elf is something different. This is why you are just being disingenuous. It's exactly the same. And it's not High Elves of the Alliance we are talking about here, it's Blood Elves. There are nothing that says that Void Elves are former High Elves. So you try to make my comparison void(pun). Everything in the game contradicts that a void elf is former Alliance High Elf. Magister Umbric says that himself. People can RP as much as they want. Doesn't make it correct.
    There is nothing that says none of the Void Elves are former High Elf exiles. So long as wriggle room exists, a person can legitimately roleplay their Void Elf as a former High Elf. The key question is whether the process that created the first Void Elves is replicable. Everything indicates that the process is indeed replicable, from Void Elf numbers being greater than the initial group, to Void Elves converting Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs demonstrating the process, to the presence of High Elf and Blood Elf NPCs in Telogrus learning the ways of the void in preparation for their transformation, to Moorgard's answer. So long as the process is replicable, there is no reason high elven exiles cannot avail themselves of the process.

    And as discussed above, Magister Umbric's answers can be read differently depending on how you yourself view your character's origin. Nothing he says ties the player to that first group transformed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah for you, big surprise. I just find it funny that you can take vague statements with no answers as truth, while when someone else comes with something as vague, you just ignore it because it's "not canon". He didn't answer the question whether Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Do you know the actual question?

    "If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

    So far it doesn't say who, and in game says Void Elves are only former Blood Elves. The numbers probably comes from more Blood Elves that miss the old Alliance. It's they who delve into magical power afterall, High Elves stay away from that sort of thing. So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves, and the game reflects that.
    I would suggest that most people reading that would have taken the following approach, that the interviewer asks a question regarding the numbers and that Moorgard answered that question...that the Void Elves can turn those who seek them out into Void Elves. It is only those who wish for playable 'pure' high elves who argue against this, as they wish to maintain that group as a separate entity that can be made playable in the future. As that is almost certainly never going to happen, saying Void Elves cannot turn High Elven exiles has as much purpose as arguing against a blue eyed option for Blood Elves, in that limiting options for races that already playable for the sake of a group that almost certainly will never be playable is pointless and stupid.

    Your answer here also seemingly concedes the fundamental point that he process is replicable. 'So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves'. That is all that matters. Once you concede that, then the possibility exists that a High Elf exile would also hear the call of the void. I mean, your statement that High Elven exiles 'stay away from that sort of thing' is just plain wrong. There are High Elven wayfarers inside Telogrus right now who are very much into that sort of thing. You can go look yourself. This is sounding increasingly like you possess a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are and your arguing on behalf of that mental image, not what is actually in the game.

    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=132671/high-elf-wayfarer



    These guys existing and doing what they are doing demolishes your counter-point. You are probably right thatmost Void Elves are former Blood Elves. Given that the Blood Elf population dwarfs the population of the High Elf exiles, there are far more Blood Elves to draw upon.

    What matters is that the Void Elf player can choose to roleplay as a former High Elf exile who has embraced the void. From what you have said above in conceding the process is replicable, and given your protestations that the game insists all playable Void Elves are former Blood Elves don't stand up to scrutiny, it should be clear that the possibility exists and is consistent with the lore of the game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Literally not what he said. I mean, how do you justify your interpretations? We know how you misunderstood what Ion said back in 2017, so its the same here? Until said or shown otherwise, only Blood Elves have turned into Void Elves. But that can change, and like I said before, I'll quote you and say "finally, Alliance High Elves now also are part of the Void Elves".
    Yes, I was clearly the one who misunderstood what Ion said in 2017. This is why he restated what he said seven months later with considerably added snark in order to drive the point home. The pro High Elf community has form in trying to discount or twist developer commentary in such a way that they can convince themselves that what was said was not said.

    Moorgard was asked where the numbers came from. He confirmed that their elves seeking the Void Elves out to join their ranks as that is the only possible interpretation of the answer that makes sense. The pro High Elf interpretation is that he got confused midway and ended up answering a different question entirely that had no relation to population numbers.

    So I justify my interpretations in that I take what the developers say at face value. It is the other side of this argument that seeks to twist, distort and manipulate those answers in order to discount them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And for some reason you seem eager to pinpoint me into something I am not. Which is kinda strange seeing how you say you are not interested.

    I am, unlike you, unbiased because Blood Elves and Void Elves are better than pure High Elves. And we can play as both now. And I don't participate to this thread as much as I did. But when you come with incorrect, false info I need to point out.
    You are arguing the pro High Elf point of view. If you argue the pro High Elf point of view, I will counter that. Particularly when your point of view is based on a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are, rather than what they actually are. I believe my information is only incorrect and false in so far that it does not agree with your own personal perception of this group, rather than what they actually are, as I demonstrated above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    My Void Elves RP as being trusted by the Alliance. Except one rogue who is undercover for Silvermoon.

    Glad blizzard didn't put any rules how people can RP, even though some random forum-user try to.
    If your Void Elf roleplays as being trusted by the Alliance, I would roleplay back that that is the voices maddening your character so that they are oblivious to the furtive looks and hostile stares.

    In fact, any Void Elf roleplay that is incompatible with the story can be explained by that Void Elf going mad and not seeing reality as it really is.

  6. #13846
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Nothing in Umbric's dialogue can be read as binding the player to an exclusively Horde origin.
    The entire second paragraph, about trust, binds the VE player as being a blood elf. A high elf would not fear "not having the trust of the Alliance" considering they've been allies for the longest time, and the entire shpiel about "Silvermoon still being in Horde control" would be meaningless since Silvermoon hasn't been the home of high elves for many, many years.

    A high elf would not be concerned for any of those things, but a blood elf would.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #13847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Mhmm. Which is why I'd like more people to get on board with Ren'dorei likely being the only playable Thalassians on the Alliance for the foreseeable future. Not just to reduce the boot indentations on this dead horse discussion, but for player's own enjoyment of the game! Granted, I think it'd be nice to have a few more non-Skrillex or tentacled hairstyles and a wider array of hair colours in the customisation options (which will hopefully come in a later Shadowlands patch (maybe with some magister rune tattoos)), but high elf fans refusing to embrace the Ren'dorei as a potential evolution of the group they are so impassioned about is just gonna cause grief without resolution for probably quite a while to come. Maybe it never will.

    I can totally sympathise with the argument of people saying they asked for vanilla ice cream but they got a blackcurrant sorbet and are expected to enjoy it just as much as the thing they actually requested, but I think people are gonna need to try and accept the compromise.

    I think Blizzard could please a considerable number of high elf fans (though not all) and get some of the heat off their backs by just making one of the void elf NPCs in Shadowlands someone like Summoner Nolric, a Kirin Tor magister or one of the named Silver Covenant members from the Argent Tournament or something. Then people could see a void elf can canonically be a Thalassian who never went Horde and I reckon a fair few people from this thread would be more into the purple flavoured compromise.
    I guess there is no harm in seeking a canonical representation of a former high elf exile who has become a Void Elf, although Alleria is exactly that and she is their racial leader.

    In regards to the fandom, there is no plausible way to please everyone. While the pro High Elf community likes to portray themselves as having a simple request and Blizzard has gone out of their way to spite them, that community has never properly engaged with the objections to their goals or the impact on other players.

    The Blood Elves are the most popular race in the Horde faction. One of the reasons the Blood Elves were added to the Horde in the first place was to increase the base Horde population, something they have been wildly successful in doing. Some Alliance players covet the most popular race within the Horde and desire an unaltered duplicate of that race. It seems counter-intuitive to think that the expression of a demand for a race that was specifically placed on the Horde to increase the Horde's popularity is going to be successful. Alliance players coveting a Horde race so openly means that the placement of the Blood Elves within the Horde was a success.

    More importantly, Blood Elves form a core part of the Horde faction. It is as unfair to the Horde to ask for unaltered thalassian elves as it would be for Horde players to demand Draenei or Worgen because they like the look of them. We play a two faction game, and ensuring those two factions remain as distinct as possible is good for Blizzard in that it allows them to preserve the valuable Horde and Alliance brands but also good for players in fostering a them versus us attitude. So long as factions are important, the integrity of those factions is important. And the High Elf exiles are simply too close thematically and aesthetically to Blood Elves to be added without issue, which is what Blizzard discovered.

    I do not like Void Elves. I would have preferred that the Blood Elf model remain Horde exclusive. However, the compromise they represent is adequate. The Alliance players got the model, but one that was profoundly aesthetically and thematically different from the Blood Elves with enough space to grow into their own thing.
    And the game is written in such a way that it is possible to roleplay your Void Elf as a former High Elf exile, ensuring anyone who does claim it is their connection to that group that drives them can finally play one should they themselves decide to do it.

    Blizzard knew what they were doing with Void Elves. They created them for several reasons. And they also knew that once they created Void Elves, they were closing the door on the Alliance getting unaltered High Elven exiles. Because while we talk about Blood Elves being impacted by the possibility here, it is also true that Void Elves would similarly be impacted. If Blood Elves on the Horde were a barrier before, the Void Elves are a second barrier that is as equally sturdy, at a stroke doubling the reasons Blizzard has for not adding playable Alliance High Elves.

    There is no plausible way to please everyone. Void Elves, the most successful Allied race, have pleased enough. That a few hundred remain upset is regrettable. But those playing Blood Elves AND Void Elves now should not be made to suffer for those who have never reconciled themselves to the modern wow status quo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The entire second paragraph, about trust, binds the VE player as being a blood elf. A high elf would not fear "not having the trust of the Alliance" considering they've been allies for the longest time, and the entire shpiel about "Silvermoon still being in Horde control" would be meaningless since Silvermoon hasn't been the home of high elves for many, many years.

    A high elf would not be concerned for any of those things, but a blood elf would.
    Warcraft encyclopedia specifically states High Elves were mistrusted by many within the Alliance.

    And any High Elf who embraced the Void to become a Void Elf would instantly earn their ire given the reverence for the light.

    Silvermoon being part of the Horde merely means all High Elves are under a vague suspicion because the vast majority of high elves live in Silvermoon, an enemy state.

    So nothing there binds the VE player as a Blood Elf. There is sufficient wiggle room to allow a different interpretation.

  8. #13848
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No, you cannot confirm that. As stated Void Elf numbers in game do not match the paltry few who were present at the initial transformation. Were that the case, the suicide mission undertaken in Nazmir would already have wiped that group out several times over. The mismatch between the numbers depicted in game and Umbric's initial group was the source of the question posed to Moorgard.
    I can confirm that because that is confirmed in game. You only speculate, which is something else entirely. Their numbers comes from Blood Elves, until said or proven other wise.
    And your statement is incorrect, as Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner (also the first Void Elf) was never a Blood Elf, and yet is a Void Elf.
    Not for the Void Elves we are interacting with, everyone bar Alleria are former Blood Elves, stated by in game sources. Nothing else contradict that. So my statement stands, all Void Elves, playable or not are former Blood Elves. Bar Alleria. No one else. You are only speculating I'm afraid. Nothing wrong with that.


    There is nothing that says none of the Void Elves are former High Elf exiles. So long as wriggle room exists, a person can legitimately roleplay their Void Elf as a former High Elf. The key question is whether the process that created the first Void Elves is replicable. Everything indicates that the process is indeed replicable, from Void Elf numbers being greater than the initial group, to Void Elves converting Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs demonstrating the process, to the presence of High Elf and Blood Elf NPCs in Telogrus learning the ways of the void in preparation for their transformation, to Moorgard's answer. So long as the process is replicable, there is no reason high elven exiles cannot avail themselves of the process.
    Yes, but you are only speculating that Alliance High Elves turns into Blood Elves. How many times do we have to repeat that it's not happened, nor is it confirmed. So keep on speculating.

    And as discussed above, Magister Umbric's answers can be read differently depending on how you yourself view your character's origin. Nothing he says ties the player to that first group transformed.
    I know how you interpret things, with a very biased viewpoint. Which is proven further down here with the infamous statement made in 2017. Lots of twisting with words, we all know that.
    I would suggest that most people reading that would have taken the following approach, that the interviewer asks a question regarding the numbers and that Moorgard answered that question...that the Void Elves can turn those who seek them out into Void Elves. It is only those who wish for playable 'pure' high elves who argue against this, as they wish to maintain that group as a separate entity that can be made playable in the future. As that is almost certainly never going to happen, saying Void Elves cannot turn High Elven exiles has as much purpose as arguing against a blue eyed option for Blood Elves, in that limiting options for races that already playable for the sake of a group that almost certainly will never be playable is pointless and stupid.

    Your answer here also seemingly concedes the fundamental point that he process is replicable. 'So it's only natural to interpret that statement that more Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves'. That is all that matters. Once you concede that, then the possibility exists that a High Elf exile would also hear the call of the void. I mean, your statement that High Elven exiles 'stay away from that sort of thing' is just plain wrong. There are High Elven wayfarers inside Telogrus right now who are very much into that sort of thing. You can go look yourself. This is sounding increasingly like you possess a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are and your arguing on behalf of that mental image, not what is actually in the game.
    I pointed that out yesterday actually, but no surprise you ignored that. They are named Wayfarer's for a good reason. It can be anyone. Which is the point in all of this. These wayfaring High Elves could have come from anywhere. Even the Alliance, but so far none of the Void Elves we interact with are former Alliance High Elves.
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=132671/high-elf-wayfarer



    These guys existing and doing what they are doing demolishes your counter-point. You are probably right thatmost Void Elves are former Blood Elves. Given that the Blood Elf population dwarfs the population of the High Elf exiles, there are far more Blood Elves to draw upon.

    What matters is that the Void Elf player can choose to roleplay as a former High Elf exile who has embraced the void. From what you have said above in conceding the process is replicable, and given your protestations that the game insists all playable Void Elves are former Blood Elves don't stand up to scrutiny, it should be clear that the possibility exists and is consistent with the lore of the game.
    But it doesn't? You can rp as much as you want like I said. But it's still not any Void Elf we see ingame that are former Alliance High Elves. Why you ignore this fact, I don't know. Or yes, I do know.


    Yes, I was clearly the one who misunderstood what Ion said in 2017. This is why he restated what he said seven months later with considerably added snark in order to drive the point home. The pro High Elf community has form in trying to discount or twist developer commentary in such a way that they can convince themselves that what was said was not said.
    Seeing how you take something like both Moogard and Magister Umbric and turn into something that fits your agenda is not surprising that you still think you were correct back then. Remember the "also a flavor" part, saying that Blood Elves also are a flavor of High Elves. Which you turned into something that wasn't. The only thing he restated was that High Elves are playable in the Horde.

    Moorgard was asked where the numbers came from. He confirmed that their elves seeking the Void Elves out to join their ranks as that is the only possible interpretation of the answer that makes sense. The pro High Elf interpretation is that he got confused midway and ended up answering a different question entirely that had no relation to population numbers.

    So I justify my interpretations in that I take what the developers say at face value. It is the other side of this argument that seeks to twist, distort and manipulate those answers in order to discount them.
    I like how you turned you, into the other side. It's mostly one here that twist, distort and manipulate those answers, and it's not me, and it's not the others.

    You are arguing the pro High Elf point of view. If you argue the pro High Elf point of view, I will counter that. Particularly when your point of view is based on a mental image of what the High Elven exiles are, rather than what they actually are. I believe my information is only incorrect and false in so far that it does not agree with your own personal perception of this group, rather than what they actually are, as I demonstrated above.
    Yes, I know you like to take your false and speculative information into something that works for your perception on how this all works.

    If your Void Elf roleplays as being trusted by the Alliance, I would roleplay back that that is the voices maddening your character so that they are oblivious to the furtive looks and hostile stares.

    In fact, any Void Elf roleplay that is incompatible with the story can be explained by that Void Elf going mad and not seeing reality as it really is.
    Not at all, you can RP as much as you want. It's weird for someone to try to tell others how to RP, it's just strange man.


    So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

    Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

  9. #13849
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I guess there is no harm in seeking a canonical representation of a former high elf exile who has become a Void Elf, although Alleria is exactly that and she is their racial leader.

    In regards to the fandom, there is no plausible way to please everyone. While the pro High Elf community likes to portray themselves as having a simple request and Blizzard has gone out of their way to spite them, that community has never properly engaged with the objections to their goals or the impact on other players.

    The Blood Elves are the most popular race in the Horde faction. One of the reasons the Blood Elves were added to the Horde in the first place was to increase the base Horde population, something they have been wildly successful in doing. Some Alliance players covet the most popular race within the Horde and desire an unaltered duplicate of that race. It seems counter-intuitive to think that the expression of a demand for a race that was specifically placed on the Horde to increase the Horde's popularity is going to be successful. Alliance players coveting a Horde race so openly means that the placement of the Blood Elves within the Horde was a success.

    More importantly, Blood Elves form a core part of the Horde faction. It is as unfair to the Horde to ask for unaltered thalassian elves as it would be for Horde players to demand Draenei or Worgen because they like the look of them. We play a two faction game, and ensuring those two factions remain as distinct as possible is good for Blizzard in that it allows them to preserve the valuable Horde and Alliance brands but also good for players in fostering a them versus us attitude. So long as factions are important, the integrity of those factions is important. And the High Elf exiles are simply too close thematically and aesthetically to Blood Elves to be added without issue, which is what Blizzard discovered.

    I do not like Void Elves. I would have preferred that the Blood Elf model remain Horde exclusive. However, the compromise they represent is adequate. The Alliance players got the model, but one that was profoundly aesthetically and thematically different from the Blood Elves with enough space to grow into their own thing.
    And the game is written in such a way that it is possible to roleplay your Void Elf as a former High Elf exile, ensuring anyone who does claim it is their connection to that group that drives them can finally play one should they themselves decide to do it.

    Blizzard knew what they were doing with Void Elves. They created them for several reasons. And they also knew that once they created Void Elves, they were closing the door on the Alliance getting unaltered High Elven exiles. Because while we talk about Blood Elves being impacted by the possibility here, it is also true that Void Elves would similarly be impacted. If Blood Elves on the Horde were a barrier before, the Void Elves are a second barrier that is as equally sturdy, at a stroke doubling the reasons Blizzard has for not adding playable Alliance High Elves.

    There is no plausible way to please everyone. Void Elves, the most successful Allied race, have pleased enough. That a few hundred remain upset is regrettable. But those playing Blood Elves AND Void Elves now should not be made to suffer for those who have never reconciled themselves to the modern wow status quo.
    Good point re Alleria. Though, with the "god of the gaps" thinking of some on the other side, her becoming a void elf via a different means allows people to say the "en masse" method is still only blood elves.

    You're right that it is impossible to please everyone. Those that try often please no one. And your assessment regarding population figures is also poignant. The faction split is fairly balanced at present. But, if blood elves, the most popular Horde race (almost 3 times as popular as orcs the next most played race, almost certainly because of their pleasing aesthetic), was copied with very few meaningful changes onto the Alliance (the more aesthetically pleasing faction for many), this would almost certainly have a detrimental effect on faction balance. Especially considering, as you point out, the success of the void elves compared with other Allied Races.

    I think if blood elves get arcane blue eyes, Farstrider warpaint and runic tattoos, as many including myself speculate they will, I think it'll be even harder to justify the addition of high elves to the Alliance than it is now. (I hope we'll get brown hair too!)

  10. #13850
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

    Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?
    Don't even try, he is being purposefully obtuse just to be on the contrary. Has been doing so for years now on this thread.

    And, on the other side, let's just face for a goddamn time that Void elves will never have more effect on High elves than to derail the threads.

    As long as the group of the High elves still exist, they will be asked for to be playable.

    The idea that because a handful of High elves might turn into Void elves will be enought to simply say that they would be 100% playable is ridiculous. That is not what has been asked for, what is being asked for is for the High elves, and the only way to make the former idea work would be for -all- High elves to turn into Void elves, not some of them here and there.

    By that, you are not only being obtuse about the existence of the other group, but also advocate to strip what makes them what they are. Not mad, not infused with void, not being able to be paladins or potentially shamans, a simpler story by simply being mixed in an unrecognizable way, etc etc...

    I can't see how that can come out from someone who likes warcraft lore. High elves are not Void elves, period.

  11. #13851
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Warcraft encyclopedia specifically states High Elves were mistrusted by many within the Alliance.
    WE was written during vanilla WoW, in 2006, and stopped being updated in 2008. In all those ten-plus years, a lot has happened, and their standing with one-another has greatly improved. To the point that the Silver Covenant was the "hub" for the Alliance for not one, but two expansions.

    I have also never seen a single in-game example of mistrust from the Alliance toward high elves.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  12. #13852
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And your statement is incorrect, as Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner (also the first Void Elf) was never a Blood Elf, and yet is a Void Elf.
    We don't really know what Alleria is, to be honest. She's a Void Elf by dint of origin, but not in the same way Umbric's people are Void Elves - she wasn't partially transformed by Durzaan, and her abilities aren't really the same (in either terms of scale or utility) as Umbric's Void Elves. Her appearance is also not changed by her Void abilities and powers, she has been mutated or altered by said powers in the same way as Umbric's people. Save for her use of her Void form, you'd otherwise never know she'd been touched by the Void unless you were already privy to it.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #13853
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    We don't really know what Alleria is, to be honest. She's a Void Elf by dint of origin, but not in the same way Umbric's people are Void Elves - she wasn't partially transformed by Durzaan, and her abilities aren't really the same (in either terms of scale or utility) as Umbric's Void Elves. Her appearance is also not changed by her Void abilities and powers, she has been mutated or altered by said powers in the same way as Umbric's people. Save for her use of her Void form, you'd otherwise never know she'd been touched by the Void unless you were already privy to it.
    That is not the argument.

    The argument is that there are Void elves that weren't Blood elves, which is unimportant, but being used as to say that High elves as playable option can be played through Void elves, which just misses the point entirely and is a ridiculous statement.

    What Alleria is or from where Void elves can come is just used to derail the High elf threads. It will be an unconsecuential point as long as High elves exist.

  14. #13854
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Still using that non-answers as proof? It's still only Blood Elves that became Void Elves. The whole story ingame is about Blood Elves becoming Void Elves, not sure why you ignore it. He gave that answer because they don't have plans of changing that or they don't know. As far as presented, Blood Elves will be the ones that expand the ranks of Void Elves.

    You have tried to use this argument for so long, as long it's no proof of Alliance High Elves going Void Elves that argument is a non-argument. It's a headcanon until this is actually proven by either ingame, novels or when a dev actually say "Yes, Alliance High Elves turns into Void Elves". When they do, I'll quote you and write that I agree.
    I'm really hoping they create a storyline where they create new void elves through a different process. Maybe a questline that unlocks Alleria type void elves.
    Last edited by delus; 2019-12-08 at 02:30 PM.

  15. #13855
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    That is not the argument.

    The argument is that there are Void elves that weren't Blood elves, which is unimportant, but being used as to say that High elves as playable option can be played through Void elves, which just misses the point entirely and is a ridiculous statement.

    What Alleria is or from where Void elves can come is just used to derail the High elf threads. It will be an unconsecuential point as long as High elves exist.
    I'm not making an argument, just an observation.

    I do agree that you can't really play a playable Void Elf as a High Elf, though - they don't really share in the essential divide between the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, they have their own cultural (and physiological) divide between themselves and their kin that's part and parcel of their story.

    Alleria's story and role in the Void Elves' story is an exception to the basic rule, and doesn't matter overly because Alleria is obviously an NPC and non-playable. Any playable Void Elf has a different story. Though I guess you could RP yourself as an exception to the rule, as well; I'm not personally opposed to that although I think it falls into the far-end of acceptable RP/OC behavior, though I'm not big on WoW RP myself so I don't know firmly what is or isn't acceptable.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #13856
    Guess what? Many of those void elves who died are coming back as DKs. So we have evidence of void elves coming back but not new ones being created. Yet. So how many blood elf exiles became first generation void elves is up for grabs. There may have been a thousand, there may have been ten thousand. They just overplayed the "crack squad".
    Last edited by delus; 2019-12-08 at 02:51 PM.

  17. #13857
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Don't even try, he is being purposefully obtuse just to be on the contrary. Has been doing so for years now on this thread.

    And, on the other side, let's just face for a goddamn time that Void elves will never have more effect on High elves than to derail the threads.

    As long as the group of the High elves still exist, they will be asked for to be playable.

    The idea that because a handful of High elves might turn into Void elves will be enought to simply say that they would be 100% playable is ridiculous. That is not what has been asked for, what is being asked for is for the High elves, and the only way to make the former idea work would be for -all- High elves to turn into Void elves, not some of them here and there.

    By that, you are not only being obtuse about the existence of the other group, but also advocate to strip what makes them what they are. Not mad, not infused with void, not being able to be paladins or potentially shamans, a simpler story by simply being mixed in an unrecognizable way, etc etc...

    I can't see how that can come out from someone who likes warcraft lore. High elves are not Void elves, period.
    Quoted for truth, especially the bolded part.

    I do like Void Elves, but thematically, historically and lore-wise, they are a faction of Blood Elves, not High Elves. And they'll never make sense as former High Elves, because their very existence runs contrary to the distancing of dangerous magics that High Elves have chosen for themselves, both in Dalaran and Quel'danil.

    High, Blood and Void Elves are three distinct flavors of Thalassian elves. That Horde players screams to high heavens that the Void Elves are a compromise for the former doesn't make it true. they are a mistake, lorewise and outside of it. Blizzard tried to please everyone and failed utterly. They also failed to prove Obelisk kai and Thalassian Bob theory that they can turn othersinto their kind.

    They added one little scripted event in Telogrus and it has nothing to do with some elves being turned. One doesn't need to became a Void Elf to master the Void, as Alleria's story on Argus and prior proved, so the presence of Blood Elves and High Elves there means nothing in regard to increased numbers - numbers which have alwas been irrelevant in WoW.

    I'd also like to point out that, like Worgens and probably Lightforged (who may or may not be sterile after the process of Lightforging), aren't a real race, just a cursed state of humans (or altered Draeneï for the latter), Void Elves may be unable to reproduce normally, either because they can't have children, can't have sane or unmutated children or even don't want to. Therefore, they'd require a constant supply of either High or Blood Elves, and the latter being more numerous, they'd be quick to be just purple Blood Elves. Which they already are, considering how Blizzard seem intent to use them.

    And that's a big problem and a huge difference comapred to the High Elves.
    Last edited by Manariel; 2019-12-08 at 02:49 PM.

  18. #13858
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    I'm really hoping they create a storyline where they create new void elves through a different process. Maybe a questline that unlocks Alleria type void elves.
    Yeah, why not. A more controlled one like what Alleria did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Don't even try, he is being purposefully obtuse just to be on the contrary. Has been doing so for years now on this thread.

    And, on the other side, let's just face for a goddamn time that Void elves will never have more effect on High elves than to derail the threads.

    As long as the group of the High elves still exist, they will be asked for to be playable.

    The idea that because a handful of High elves might turn into Void elves will be enought to simply say that they would be 100% playable is ridiculous. That is not what has been asked for, what is being asked for is for the High elves, and the only way to make the former idea work would be for -all- High elves to turn into Void elves, not some of them here and there.

    By that, you are not only being obtuse about the existence of the other group, but also advocate to strip what makes them what they are. Not mad, not infused with void, not being able to be paladins or potentially shamans, a simpler story by simply being mixed in an unrecognizable way, etc etc...

    I can't see how that can come out from someone who likes warcraft lore. High elves are not Void elves, period.
    I am just trying to figure out what he really means with all this, if he think it's okay to rp as High Elf, then surely he would think that giving Void Elves a High Elf skin would fit.

    I myself see Void Elves as one group. Because that's what they are and described as. Former group of Blood Elves that delved into the Void. Nothing more, nothing less. Like you know, the population was always the "main argument" of High Elves not being playable. Why wasn't it okay that the High Elves reproduced then right? It's just being hypocritical. And that's what gets me. Turning points whenever it fits. Like you know, "no no, High Elves are such a small group, can't reproduce or recruit from Silvermoon, to now where it's "oh yeah yeah, Void Elves can recruit from all over the place no problem". It's just silly at this point.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2019-12-08 at 02:57 PM.

  19. #13859
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    We don't really know what Alleria is, to be honest. She's a Void Elf by dint of origin, but not in the same way Umbric's people are Void Elves - she wasn't partially transformed by Durzaan, and her abilities aren't really the same (in either terms of scale or utility) as Umbric's Void Elves. Her appearance is also not changed by her Void abilities and powers, she has been mutated or altered by said powers in the same way as Umbric's people. Save for her use of her Void form, you'd otherwise never know she'd been touched by the Void unless you were already privy to it.
    Yet Alleria defines herself as a void elf in the opening narration played to every Void Elf player. Yes, she came by her powers a different fashion but the fundamentals of what defines a void elf still apply to her, namely her constant struggle with the whispers (the struggle that led her to identity with Umbric's newly transformed group in the first place), a connection to the void, the ability to wield void powers (particularly teleporting using the void as a conduit) and of course, a dedicated void form.

    I would recommend that as she now defines herself as a Void Elf, that she has the final word on the matter. Alleria Windrunner is a Void Elf. A different kind of Void Elf (and the only one of her kind given how she came about her transformation), sure, but a Void Elf nonetheless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    WE was written during vanilla WoW, in 2006, and stopped being updated in 2008. In all those ten-plus years, a lot has happened, and their standing with one-another has greatly improved. To the point that the Silver Covenant was the "hub" for the Alliance for not one, but two expansions.

    I have also never seen a single in-game example of mistrust from the Alliance toward high elves.
    So?

    Is a political magazine from 2006 that says George W. Bush is the US President wrong?

    The encyclopedia is true as of the moment it was written. Nothing in it has been retconned, although some of the situations described within have evolved from the point it was authored.

    And we know that Sean Copeland, who was on Blizzard's lore librarian team, said that the encyclopedia was still canon several years and several expansions later.

    That the encyclopedia says there was mistrust of the High Elves within the Alliance means that there was mistrust of the High Elves within the Alliance. That is the canon written word. Just because you are relying on your personal experience that you didn't see any doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

    After all, from the perspective of the common Alliance citizen, the High Elves have taken the following actions in the past twenty years.

    *Refused to come to the aid of the Human Kingdoms of their own free will.
    *Were compelled by treaty to come to the aid of the Human Kingdoms.
    *Sent the bare minimum force to participate as a result.
    *Joined the Alliance only when their own lands were attacked.
    *Withdrew from the Alliance at the first opportunity.
    *Held the Alliance responsible for the destruction of their Kingdom, despite the fact that numerous Human Kingdoms were burning at the same time.
    *Fraternised with the Naga and defied the orders of the Alliance commander in charge of reclaiming Lordaeron.
    *Abandoned that commander, whose depleted forces would later be massacred by the Undead.
    *Joined the new Horde of their own free will and aided the Horde during periods of the cold peace in operations against the Alliance.
    *Were revealed to be mana junkies desperate for a fix.
    *The Prince of the Elves sided with the Demons and nearly helped precipitate the third invasion of the Burning Legion early.
    *Participated in both the Pandaria campaign and the Fourth War in active campaigns against the Alliance, with an elf being one of the key operatives who ensured the destruction of Theramore. Elven forces also played a role in the war of thorns which led to the burning of teldrassil.
    *The High Elven exiles seemingly sat in Dalaran for the entirety of the Fourth War, because you can only have ONE personal example of a High Elven exile fighting that war, frostfencer Seraphi.
    *The High Elven exiles are traitors to their homeland. Nobody trusts a traitor, and history in the real world bears this out.
    *The high elves who did participate on the side of the Alliance are actually void crazed maniacs.

    So despite all the above, you really expect to argue that the encyclopedia comment that the high elven exiles are mistrusted is non-canon?

    Frankly looking at all of the above I am not surprised the vast majority of them actually do still live in Dalaran. Of course they would be mistrusted to a degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Good point re Alleria. Though, with the "god of the gaps" thinking of some on the other side, her becoming a void elf via a different means allows people to say the "en masse" method is still only blood elves.

    You're right that it is impossible to please everyone. Those that try often please no one. And your assessment regarding population figures is also poignant. The faction split is fairly balanced at present. But, if blood elves, the most popular Horde race (almost 3 times as popular as orcs the next most played race, almost certainly because of their pleasing aesthetic), was copied with very few meaningful changes onto the Alliance (the more aesthetically pleasing faction for many), this would almost certainly have a detrimental effect on faction balance. Especially considering, as you point out, the success of the void elves compared with other Allied Races.

    I think if blood elves get arcane blue eyes, Farstrider warpaint and runic tattoos, as many including myself speculate they will, I think it'll be even harder to justify the addition of high elves to the Alliance than it is now. (I hope we'll get brown hair too!)
    I don't think the population would be dramatically shifted by playable High Elven exiles, that isn't my concern. I think that giving the Horde an aesthetically pleasing race was one of the reasons for addition of Blood Elves and that the level of interest in Blood Elves nearly twelve years later validates that design choice.

    Void Elves are a 90-95% match of a Blood Elf. They are a compromise I am not keen on, but a compromise I believe most of us can live with. It looks like Blizzard went right up to the limits of their red lines in faction diversity in giving the Alliance as close a copy as they did.

    Blood Elf customization options are going to be the next trigger of debate in this thread and until then we are going to tread water going over the same topics again and again. At the moment, it is reasonable to expect eye colour options, tattoos and possibly scars.

    As there are no tattoos available for Blood Elves right now, there are two primary inspirations they could with. The runic style tattoos seen on the Blood Elf on the TBC box cover, and the Farstrider tattoos from Warcraft 2, one of which is sported by Alleria. My preference would, of course, to have both as options, but it may be felt that runic style tattoos are now a Nightborne thing. This would leave the 'Farstrider' options, and I believe these are probably going to be offered to Blood Elves.

    Eye colour of course opens a kettle of fish due to the prediction of blue eyes for Blood Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't (Moorgard recently confirmed that a blue eyed Blood Elf named Lanesh was not a mistake, as many pro High Elfers have argued), then I believe the pro High Elf community will rage for a few days before deciding eye colour doesn't really matter. Should Blood Elves not get blue eyes, pro High Elfers will take it as proof that Blizzard sees High Elven exiles as a distinct group and they are 'reserving' the eye colour for them, although it's probably likelier they may like to keep blue eyes as unique to Void Elves (who currently sport that eye colour). If Blizzard is wise, they should grant Blood Elves a blue eye option. Blood Elves are playable. Alliance High Elf exiles are not. Denying an option to a group that is already being played to spare the feelings of the tiny group of fans of an even tinier group of NPCs is illogical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Quoted for truth, especially the bolded part.

    I do like Void Elves, but thematically, historically and lore-wise, they are a faction of Blood Elves, not High Elves. And they'll never make sense as former High Elves, because their very existence runs contrary to the distancing of dangerous magics that High Elves have chosen for themselves, both in Dalaran and Quel'danil.

    High, Blood and Void Elves are three distinct flavors of Thalassian elves. That Horde players screams to high heavens that the Void Elves are a compromise for the former doesn't make it true. they are a mistake, lorewise and outside of it. Blizzard tried to please everyone and failed utterly. They also failed to prove Obelisk kai and Thalassian Bob theory that they can turn othersinto their kind.

    They added one little scripted event in Telogrus and it has nothing to do with some elves being turned. One doesn't need to became a Void Elf to master the Void, as Alleria's story on Argus and prior proved, so the presence of Blood Elves and High Elves there means nothing in regard to increased numbers - numbers which have alwas been irrelevant in WoW.

    I'd also like to point out that, like Worgens and probably Lightforged (who may or may not be sterile after the process of Lightforging), aren't a real race, just a cursed state of humans (or altered Draeneï for the latter), Void Elves may be unable to reproduce normally, either because they can't have children, can't have sane or unmutated children or even don't want to. Therefore, they'd require a constant supply of either High or Blood Elves, and the latter being more numerous, they'd be quick to be just purple Blood Elves. Which they already are, considering how Blizzard seem intent to use them.

    And that's a big problem and a huge difference comapred to the High Elves.
    There are two types of thalassian elves. Blood/High Elves and Void Elves. The former group has a subfaction who are divided from the main group by politics, not by anything else. Nobody would argue that the Highborne mages, who follow a different ideology from mainstream Night Elves, would count as a co-eval branch of Kaldorei type Elves alongside Night Elves and Nightborne.

    As for 'distancing themselves from dangerous magics', there are literally High Elven wayfarers inside Telogrus learning how to use the void right now. Go make a void elf and wander around, you can't fail to see them. Stating that High Elven exiles cannot do what they are doing in game as I write this and which you can observe for yourself makes a farce of your response.

    The High Elven exiles, as few of them as there are, are not a monolith. Even if only a handful of them decided to give this void magic a try and become Void Elves, that is all that is required to justify a roleplayer who wishes to say they were never a Blood Elf and have fought beside for the Alliance for decades.

    P.S. Alleria is a Void Elf. A different kind of Void Elf, but she is a Void Elf. She even calls herself a Void Elf, and I think you should trust her word on what she is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I can confirm that because that is confirmed in game. You only speculate, which is something else entirely. Their numbers comes from Blood Elves, until said or proven other wise.
    Blood Elves are High Elves. As long as they are able to convert other Elves using the same technique, something you have conceded, then the process conducted upon a High Elf will result in a Void Elf. The presence of the High Elven Wayfarers alongside the Silvermoon scholars matches Moorgard's comments about other elves seeking the void elves to learn their ways and undergo a similar process. Nothing can contradict any Void Elf who wishes to argue they were a High Elven exile from Dalaran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Not for the Void Elves we are interacting with, everyone bar Alleria are former Blood Elves, stated by in game sources. Nothing else contradict that. So my statement stands, all Void Elves, playable or not are former Blood Elves. Bar Alleria. No one else. You are only speculating I'm afraid. Nothing wrong with that.
    Nothing contradicts the possibility that some of the Void Elves are former High Elves, and the presence of High Elven wayfarers learning the ways of the void alongside the Silvermoon scholars is deliberate. Speculation is one thing. Refusing to join clearly labelled dots is another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yes, but you are only speculating that Alliance High Elves turns into Blood Elves. How many times do we have to repeat that it's not happened, nor is it confirmed. So keep on speculating.
    Void Elven replication confirmed by Moorgard. Moorgard also said 'other elves', not 'other blood elves'. There are High Elven wayfarers present in Telogrus rift learning the ways of the void. Saying this is speculation is akin to saying five weeks ago, following the leak of the image of Bolvar and the Shadowlands logo, that saying the next expansion is Shadowlands was mere speculation. At some point the evidence (plus common sense) becomes too great to ignore without looking deliberately obtuse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I know how you interpret things, with a very biased viewpoint. Which is proven further down here with the infamous statement made in 2017. Lots of twisting with words, we all know that.
    Which isn't a retort. Umbric's answers are slightly ambiguous and allow a Void Elf roleplayer considerable leeway in interpreting their own origin should they choose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I pointed that out yesterday actually, but no surprise you ignored that. They are named Wayfarer's for a good reason. It can be anyone. Which is the point in all of this. These wayfaring High Elves could have come from anywhere. Even the Alliance, but so far none of the Void Elves we interact with are former Alliance High Elves. And who knows, maybe you are right
    We have confirmed there are too few High Elven exiles left to form any serious population centres. The only place they are known to congregate are in Dalaran and in Quel'Danil lodge. Given Quel'Danil's attitude towards magic, this means these void curious elves are probably from the magic city of Dalaran, which would make the most sense. The term 'wayfarer' simply means someone who has travelled, and these wayfarers have travelled to Telogrus and their point of origin can be anywhere. Perhaps the connotation is the somewhat rootless nature of the High Elven exiles. But it is reaching to argue that the wayfarers cannot be High Elven exiles. The precise origin wold in fact be up to the player who selects that as their origin.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    But it doesn't? You can rp as much as you want like I said. But it's still not any Void Elf we see ingame that are former Alliance High Elves. Why you ignore this fact, I don't know. Or yes, I do know.
    I am not a roleplayer. But while any Void Elf encountered was most likely a Blood Elf previously, there is a small chance that they were a former Alliance High Elf. This is the possibility you cannot eliminate. As you cannot eliminate the possibility, and the available evidence actually strongly suggests that former High Elven exiles are among Void Elf numbers, anyone who chooses to roleplay their Void Elf as a former Alliance High Elf is free to do so and is not engaging in headcanon. Headcanon would be pretending your Void Elf was a High Elven exile who was not a Void Elf, which is impossible.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Seeing how you take something like both Moogard and Magister Umbric and turn into something that fits your agenda is not surprising that you still think you were correct back then. Remember the "also a flavor" part, saying that Blood Elves also are a flavor of High Elves. Which you turned into something that wasn't. The only thing he restated was that High Elves are playable in the Horde.
    I have taken the developers at their word and twisted nothing they have said.

    Moorgard was asked where Void Elf numbers came from, and he said other elves are seeking them out to undergo a similar process. This is fairly straightforward and tacks with the depiction of telogrus in game. It is the pro High Elf community that has desperately attempted to spin this answer into something it isn't, with I believe the best attempt at an answer being something like that he wasn't answering the question at all. When there is a valid interpretation of an answer that matches the question asked, and the only way to say that wasn't the answer given is to argue he wasn't answering the question at all, I fail to see how that response carries any weight.

    Ion never said that Blood Elves are a flavour of High Elves. He said Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves, and listed some exceedingly minor differences with the clear implication that they were too minor to count as differentiation. One of them was eye colour after all (which maybe eliminated in the coming customization expansion) and the other was a different relationship with magic, which probably referred to the split over how to sate their addiction (and which was resolved at the end of TBC).

    He said Void Elves were another flavour of High Elf. Which they are. Blueberry flavour compared to vanilla, but still ice cream.




    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I like how you turned you, into the other side. It's mostly one here that twist, distort and manipulate those answers, and it's not me, and it's not the others.
    Which is a bit of a stretch in that I explained my reasoning was to take what the developers say at face value. It saves a lot of time. Like in April when Ion defended the faction system in the forbes article, and too many people in this thread were keen to ignore him saying that. How many people in how many threads spent so much of the summer speculating about the faction system and it's future when if they had just read what the guy had said in April they'd have spared themselves an awful lot of pointless speculation.

    Similarly, the only way to not conclude that Moorgard was saying Void Elves cannot recruit others is to try and twist his words so that they don't say what you don't want them to say. Another way people tried to do this as I recall was to parse Moorgard's answer without keeping the question for context. Between the question and the answer, only one interpretation holds water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yes, I know you like to take your false and speculative information into something that works for your perception on how this all works.
    Given I have been proven right more often than not over the years, my judgement cannot be that faulty.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Not at all, you can RP as much as you want. It's weird for someone to try to tell others how to RP, it's just strange man.
    Not really. You roleplay in the circumstances provided. Some races provide more leeway than others, such as a Human player wishing to roleplay they grew up in Dalaran or Alterac. A void elf player cannot roleplay that they are not a void elf however. Void Elves are unique however in that anyone who roleplays their character in a way inconsistent with the lore has already provided people with a narrative defense against it. That the Void Elf in question has gone a bit mad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say,
    As she says.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?
    Nope, because Alleria came by her powers in a unique method that allows her to transition between a Void Elf form and her base form. However, she is fundamentally a Void Elf now, not a High Elf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?
    No, because those players wish to pretend that they never became Void Elves at all. That is not roleplaying. That is make believe. And any Void Elf who would attempt to roleplay that should be treated as having gone mad. The game itself provides the narrative tool to undermine the claim of any Void Elf roleplayer who attempts to argue this.


    Void Elves have zero leeway on this. They are connected to the void and were transformed into Void Elves as a result. That is the fundamental core of that player's race choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I am just trying to figure out what he really means with all this, if he think it's okay to rp as High Elf, then surely he would think that giving Void Elves a High Elf skin would fit. .
    Easy. The great lie of the pro High Elf community is that it is the lore which motivates them, the desire to play a true high elf that is loyal to the Alliance. If Void Elves can turn High Elves into Void Elves, then all anyone who wishes to connect to that lore and that group has to do is decide their own origin for themselves.

    The real reason this is resisted is because to admit it, and to admit that it is possible to play one of those long alliance loyal High Elves (albeit in a different form) means that the objection the Void Elves, that they are NOT those elves, falls away.

    And then the real reason is exposed. Pro High Elfers don't want to play a Void Elf because it's blue. But the shallowness of their own ideal is exposed by such a response, even if that being the core problem is obvious to everyone from the developers to the wider community.

    So they argue that the objection to Void Elves is based in lore rather than aesthetics, which few if any really believe. It's a fig leaf.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-12-08 at 05:13 PM.

  20. #13860
    God forbid @Obelisk Kai ever admit he is flat out unable to understand what pro-HE wants, when he is the one always bringing the appearance of the BE and HE on the table. Because even if some VE were former HE beyond Alleria, and I don't see any proof of that ingame, despite your insinuations and ways to twist tweets and events in game to fit your purpose, that wouldn't make the Void Elves the kind of elves I truly want to play. My main is one for the moment because I fell in love with the Hunter class and didn't want to spend 25€ changing the race when I truly realized that I'd switch main at level 90.

    But High Elves, playable high Elves, can't have chosen to become Void Elves, precisely because it runs contrary to their values and beliefs. They'd die before they'd submit to such dangerous energies.

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