1. #13861
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Well you said it yourself here


    And we see that Blizzard caters a lot to the races that are popular. So I'd say Void Elf fans get to ask for it since they are the most popular AR Also the suggestions given by Luck4 and Resident Rump are often seen among the Void Elf players of what more customization they'd like to see for Void Elves. Even that one Void Elf fanatic poster in this thread would like appearance options on Void Elves to look more like Alleria.

    I don't think that Blizzard can avoid giving more high elf-like options to Void Elves when they keep touting how increased customizations are based off of what's been asked forever and so that you can look how you want to feel. Since a lot of Void Elf players also happen to RP themselves as High Elves or High Elves who became Void Elves.

    This is really the elephant in the room, and as there are Blood Elf players going on about how they have every right to ask for whatever customizations they want for the race they play, there's no difference there from Void Elf players who want whatever customizations they want for the race they play.

    Anyways, I have a little theory with Night Elf with customization that may or may not confirm what happens for customization when it comes to Void Elves, but I'll have to wait and see how they handle the Night Elves first.
    Doesn't work like that bud, just because an AR is popular does not mean that any additional customizations they receive will come at the expense of detracting from the uniqueness of their parent race. I would be willing to bet that any additional customizations ARs get in the future will be in alignment with that ARs aesthetic and thematic, not with their parents race aesthetic and thematic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, "from memory" isn't exactly a strong argument when said "from memory" is a crucial part of it. For all we know, the bear could be attacking the locals. Or got infected with something and needs to be put down.
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Quest:Vyrin%27s_Revenge

    They tried hunting the bear years ago but to no success. They then recently tried to hunt the bear again. to which the high elf's friend apparently gets injured. As an act of revenge for the injury (which is funny given they're trying to hunt the bear) the high elf asks you to kill the bear and bring it's head back. "From memory" served me well in this case it seems (though I admit not always). I don't remember any more context around the quest, other than you're asked to kill a bear who attacked someone, even though said someone was trying to kill the bear in the first place. "Morally grey" comes to mind in this example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You don't think them turning a glowing purple for twelve seconds every minute would be sufficient differentiation?

    No it would not be sufficient, hence why Blizzard went with a permanent purple option in stead of "twelve seconds every minute".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Rump View Post
    They will soon get Lilian Voss who looks exactly like them, especially since the talk of Calia and Derek definitely not joining the Horde. All the more reason to add the options to Void Elves if even Forsaken get to look like their leader in the future.
    Sylvanas was the undead leader for 15 years or so. Why should void elves have to wait any less? And even still, it'd be no different to the problem we have now... making them look like Alleria would only be making them look like blood elves (which you know, is the whole blurring of lines we're trying to avoid here)

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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    So the color blue is a different theme huh?
    The void is a different theme.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  2. #13862
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    They could've went with a design like this



    And that would've been so much better.
    They could have made blood elves more demonic. They could have made them permanently changed by the fel. Alas, they didn't.

  3. #13863
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Doesn't work like that bud, just because an AR is popular does not mean that any additional customizations they receive will come at the expense of detracting from the uniqueness of their parent race. I would be willing to bet that any additional customizations ARs get in the future will be in alignment with that ARs aesthetic and thematic, not with their parents race aesthetic and thematic.
    Actually yeah it does. What this tells me here is you don't understand why increased customizations are coming in the first place.

  4. #13864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Quest:Vyrin%27s_Revenge

    They tried hunting the bear years ago but to no success. They then recently tried to hunt the bear again. to which the high elf's friend apparently gets injured. As an act of revenge for the injury (which is funny given they're trying to hunt the bear) the high elf asks you to kill the bear and bring it's head back. "From memory" served me well in this case it seems (though I admit not always). I don't remember any more context around the quest, other than you're asked to kill a bear who attacked someone, even though said someone was trying to kill the bear in the first place. "Morally grey" comes to mind in this example.
    You were right. I'm not going to say anything else regarding this subject, though, as it's not an argument chain I've been following.

    No it would not be sufficient, hence why Blizzard went with a permanent purple option in stead of "twelve seconds every minute".
    "Because Blizzard didn't do it" is not a valid answer, because you're making a claim that cannot be verified. It's not valid because we have no idea what went throughout the designers' meeting that created the void elf concept, what other ideas were given and the reason they were rejected. For all we know, void elves with "fair skin but turn purple for twelve seconds once per minute" was acceptable, but the designers decided void elves being purple all the time was "prettier".
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  5. #13865
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time that Blizzard implements a lazy solution stat that they then later improve upon in an entirely better way and still leave that lazy solution in.

    Ex: Void Storage before collections tab for mounts/pets/tmog/toys.

    More recent example would be the increased customizations we're seeing coming with Shadowlands itself. Makes the concept of Allied Races themselves redundant, especially Void Elves who are a simple re-skin of Blood Elves (no model change in any way like Nightborne/Vulpera/Zandalari), Mag'har, LF Draenei, HM Tauren.

    Just because Blizzard utilizes one method at first doesn't mean they're beholden to it for the entirety of their game's life.

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    It's funny that in the same snippet you say "it's not about the race" you still end it with focusing on the race. Proving my point.
    Your response was revealing. You define Void Elves as a lazy solution that can be 'improved' with time and development. The flaw here is that you assume Void Elves are terrible is a fact, and that that is something Blizzard must fix. And by 'fix' or 'improve' you clearly once again mean the introduction of high elf skin tones because that is what everyone understands pro high elfers mean about fixing Void Elves.

    Leaving aside the fact that such a result is still going to be a Void Elf and not a traditional high elf (that is a blood elf), changing the void elf skin tone was consistent with several other allied races who were introduced. Their skin tones are reflective of the void theme and aesthetic Void elves were granted to distinguish them from blood/high elves and thus a natural part of the package, unless you wish to argue they chose the skin tone first and the then settled on the void theme to explain it. The skin tones void elves have were a deliberate choice to distinguish then. Giving void elves high elf like skins would be counterintuitive in that it would undermine the rationale for giving them those skins in the first place and pointless as the result will still be a shadow twisted void elf. This is the conclusion I believe they will reach should they ever consider additional customizations for Void Elves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    They could've went with a design like this



    And that would've been so much better.
    This is the kind of additional customizations that would suit void elves, allowing them to develop as their own thing rather than trying to turn them into ersatz high elves.

  6. #13866
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This is the kind of additional customizations that would suit void elves, allowing them to develop as their own thing rather than trying to turn them into ersatz high elves.
    Yes, of course. That way, we'll remain with the exact same faces/hairs/skintones than we have today. I get it, BE fans are so focused on the outward appearance of their faciton of thalassian Elves that they can't stand the idea of any other race looking like their own, even when it makes sense.

    But sure. Add monstrous appearances to the Void Elves that nobody will use because they are uttelry ugly and just break the whole Alliance aesthetic more than anything else. Meanwhile, I guess the Horde will get a dozen or so new different skins for his Mag'hars ?

  7. #13867
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    What I ask is why they would even bother if they are just going to use the same model.
    Because the request for high elves for the alliance was pretty insistent proving the demand was there BUT that their internal red lines regarding faction diversity meant they had to differentiate the thalassian elves the alliance was getting enough to be distinct but not too much lost it be unrecognisable as an elf. All they really did was turn a high elf blue and only a small group of vocal players seemingly refuse to accept getting a near duplicate of the model. They want an actual duplicate.

    Most people seem to have taken the win given the status of void elves as the most popular allied race

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Yes, of course. That way, we'll remain with the exact same faces/hairs/skintones than we have today. I get it, BE fans are so focused on the outward appearance of their faciton of thalassian Elves that they can't stand the idea of any other race looking like their own, even when it makes sense.

    But sure. Add monstrous appearances to the Void Elves that nobody will use because they are uttelry ugly and just break the whole Alliance aesthetic more than anything else. Meanwhile, I guess the Horde will get a dozen or so new different skins for his Mag'hars ?
    Void elves use forces which canonically produce monstrous appearances. Plenty of demon hunter players have taken the monstrous customizations open to them as they wish to lean into the fantasy. Offering void elves the opportunity to have more monstrous options, something which fits perfectly with their theme, would be a logical outcome of them getting expanded customization options. And any Void elf player put off by these options could simply choose not to use them and instead run around as they are now as blue high elves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    I preface by saying that we are on the same side of the argument and I agree with you that the blood elves are technically WoW's playable high elves and fulfil that role perfectly adequately. On top of this, I think it's also worth remarking that, at this point, Silvermoon has participated actively in the Horde for such a length of time as to match or even surpass their active membership in the Alliance of Lordaeron which really only consisted of their (reluctant) involvement in the Second War. So, I believe that people saying that the "high elves" are a core Alliance race are wrong. Many high elves were prominent and important figures within the Alliance as individuals, but Quel'Thalas as a whole was never particularly fond of the organisation and saw it as more of a burden than a boon.

    Having said all that, I believe the blood elf heritage armour quest line reveals the blood elven leadership's thinking on their racial status:



    The phoenix, with its cycles of death and rebirth, is an animal with profound cultural significance to the Sin'dorei and I think Liadrin's words here reveal that the blood elves see the high elves - who they were - as dead. A people who they were but no longer are. When their old world was unmade by Arthas' monstrous attack the Quel'Thalas of the Quel'dorei was burned to cinders, but from the ashes, like a phoenix a new people arose - the Sin'dorei.

    I think another reflection of this detachment from their high elven past is Lor'themar's continued resistance to the notion of founding a new royal dynasty and making himself the new king of Quel'Thalas. Kael'thas declared that his father was the last king of the high elves and the regent lord shows no signs of going against the prince's wishes on this and, as far as we know, most of the blood elven populace seems satisfied with this arrangement.

    I think the blood elves see themselves as a new people and when they see their Quel'dorei kin clinging on to their old identity, I think they probably pity them. At least partially (when they're not murderously purging them from Dalaran).
    The issue is that by representing the overwhelming majority of their population and having possession of the lands and government of the thalassian elves the lawful king redefined what it is to be a high elf. That is a Blood Elf. The moment he did that, anyone who clung to the term high elf was making a political point. Blood elves are high elves. But the term high elf itself no longer means what it used to mean. It would be as if the term human was replaced by something else and then a tiny,fringe political party called the human party popped up.

  8. #13868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Yes, of course. That way, we'll remain with the exact same faces/hairs/skintones than we have today. I get it, BE fans are so focused on the outward appearance of their faciton of thalassian Elves that they can't stand the idea of any other race looking like their own, even when it makes sense.

    But sure. Add monstrous appearances to the Void Elves that nobody will use because they are uttelry ugly and just break the whole Alliance aesthetic more than anything else. Meanwhile, I guess the Horde will get a dozen or so new different skins for his Mag'hars ?
    Lets be fair, it would be better for the race as a whole to get unique costumization options, instead of being BE 2.0, that way the race can slowly but surely start becoming their own thing, and not just a mix-match between BE + HE + Void

  9. #13869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The issue is that by representing the overwhelming majority of their population and having possession of the lands and government of the thalassian elves the lawful king redefined what it is to be a high elf. That is a Blood Elf. The moment he did that, anyone who clung to the term high elf was making a political point. Blood elves are high elves. But the term high elf itself no longer means what it used to mean. It would be as if the term human was replaced by something else and then a tiny,fringe political party called the human party popped up.
    Absolutely, blood elves are the main inheritors to the Thalassian legacy. The remaining "high elves" are like tsarist Russians in exile after the establishment of the Soviet Union, ghosts of an old world whose story has run out.

  10. #13870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Absolutely, blood elves are the main inheritors to the Thalassian legacy. The remaining "high elves" are like tsarist Russians in exile after the establishment of the Soviet Union, ghosts of an old world whose story has run out.
    Precisely. This is why terminology is pointless. The high elves have renamed themselves as blood elves and those who argue high elves are a distinct race are arguing over an adjective. I'd wager the only reason chris metzen renamed them for the rise of the blood elves campaign in wc3 is that he thought it sounded cooler. If blood elves were still called high elves would we even be having this argument?

  11. #13871
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    People want their Lord of the Rings on World of Warcraft, thats the ultimate reason.
    They ignored completly 25 years of Lore that changed from being part of the Lordaeron Alliance, to ended up joining the Legion, getting separated and joining the Horde, fighting their own breathen being used as Slaves and meat shields and getting their hands dirty from both parts (garrosh/Garithos/Jaina)
    To finally reach a point where, every elf was accepted on the Sunwell to do its pilgrimage, being Alliance, or Horde, or neutral.
    Up until the void elves.

    Probably, if the story goes forward... i can see those void elves cults in the corners of Stormwind (go look arround how those guys are "converting" people) making that the remaining "Alliance Elves" turn into Void powers, or seeking refugee on Silvermoon.
    I even see some "void elves" leaving Silvermoon in the most bizarre way when you exit the Shepherd Gate

    Lets see what Shadowlands will do to this megathread. Cant wait.

  12. #13872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Precisely. This is why terminology is pointless. The high elves have renamed themselves as blood elves and those who argue high elves are a distinct race are arguing over an adjective. I'd wager the only reason chris metzen renamed them for the rise of the blood elves campaign in wc3 is that he thought it sounded cooler. If blood elves were still called high elves would we even be having this argument?
    That was very likely Metzen's thinking. I imagine that there'd still be people asking for an Alliance-specific faction of playable high elves, but the demand would probably be a lot smaller. If Blizzard would just stop adding the odd high elf here and there to Alliance hubs, people's passion might finally start to fade. But, they had to add two to fairly visible ones to Boralus...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    People want their Lord of the Rings on World of Warcraft, thats the ultimate reason.
    They ignored completly 25 years of Lore that changed from being part of the Lordaeron Alliance, to ended up joining the Legion, getting separated and joining the Horde, fighting their own breathen being used as Slaves and meat shields and getting their hands dirty from both parts (garrosh/Garithos/Jaina)
    To finally reach a point where, every elf was accepted on the Sunwell to do its pilgrimage, being Alliance, or Horde, or neutral.
    Up until the void elves.

    Probably, if the story goes forward... i can see those void elves cults in the corners of Stormwind (go look arround how those guys are "converting" people) making that the remaining "Alliance Elves" turn into Void powers, or seeking refugee on Silvermoon.
    I even see some "void elves" leaving Silvermoon in the most bizarre way when you exit the Shepherd Gate

    Lets see what Shadowlands will do to this megathread. Cant wait.
    I wish Blizz would add a couple of named Silver Covenant NPCs to the void elves ranks or maybe one of the named Allerian Stronghold elves, then people might be more accepting of void elves being the continuation of the Alliance-aligned Thalassians' story.

  13. #13873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    That was very likely Metzen's thinking. I imagine that there'd still be people asking for an Alliance-specific faction of playable high elves, but the demand would probably be a lot smaller. If Blizzard would just stop adding the odd high elf here and there to Alliance hubs, people's passion might finally start to fade. But, they had to add two to fairly visible ones to Boralus...

    I wish Blizz would add a couple of named Silver Covenant NPCs to the void elves ranks or maybe one of the named Allerian Stronghold elves, then people might be more accepting of void elves being the continuation of the Alliance-aligned Thalassians' story.
    Yeah, Blizz goffed by adding High Elves to the faction just as npcs to give "flavor" or a more "alive" world, but ended creating a freaking paradox. Sometimes i wonder how well the Blood Elves could have been on the Alliance at the start of TBC.

    But i agee, if they start creating new Helves turning into Void Elves, their story would be more "compeling" as a "progression" race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    People want their Lord of the Rings on World of Warcraft, thats the ultimate reason.
    Alliance were basically designed to be the LotR faction so this seems unsurprising that fans of the faction want it more like that. Pretty sure even developers who play Alliance like it that way.

    Given that every AR given to the Alliance has stayed a human/elf/dwarf/gnome/draenei (aka tiefling) or other common fantasy creature just kinda drives the point home for what the Alliance faction's theme is: LotR basically (obviously with small twists).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    That was very likely Metzen's thinking. I imagine that there'd still be people asking for an Alliance-specific faction of playable high elves, but the demand would probably be a lot smaller. If Blizzard would just stop adding the odd high elf here and there to Alliance hubs, people's passion might finally start to fade. But, they had to add two to fairly visible ones to Boralus...
    And then continued to add High Elven vehicles for the War Campaign ending as well. Lol, I'm pretty sure the developers enjoy the tease.

  15. #13875
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    That was very likely Metzen's thinking. I imagine that there'd still be people asking for an Alliance-specific faction of playable high elves, but the demand would probably be a lot smaller. If Blizzard would just stop adding the odd high elf here and there to Alliance hubs, people's passion might finally start to fade. But, they had to add two to fairly visible ones to Boralus...
    Personally I don't think the name itself is the issue, but the persistence of Alliance High Elves. If Blood Elves had never changed their name and remained High Elves, the problem would still be that there are presently both Horde and Alliance High Elves. I do wonder that if they didn't change their name would have made the developers more reticent to adding Alliance High Elves so freely.

    But we can even conceive a whole different meta of the discussion if BE's never got rebranded with the onus being put on how High Elves, by belonging two both factions are ostensibly neutral, which would have perhaps being even more contentious.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    I wish Blizz would add a couple of named Silver Covenant NPCs to the void elves ranks or maybe one of the named Allerian Stronghold elves, then people might be more accepting of void elves being the continuation of the Alliance-aligned Thalassians' story.
    There were so many opportunities during BfA to fold the High Elves into the Void Elves passively, and several ways where they could have made it a narrative with all the void content of BfA, specially Stormsong Valley. This is also related to the Void Elves lack of development compared to other races, because they needed the development as a group and not just a sojourn with Umbric, and it would have also given the alliance a leveling experience with more variety than just humans.

    We could have had less Quilboar and instead a questline surrounding the Void Elves helping the Storm's Wake, which could have also doubled as the SC folding into them during it -not to mention of the possibility of setting up High Elves in Kul Tiras as per the RPG, and use them to draw a connection to the Void, Umbric studies, the Silver Covenant and Jaina-

  16. #13876
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    What is weird is that Kael'thas was the bad guy of TBC, yet him being fucked over by Garithos somehow meant that all of Quel'thalas suddenly leaves the Alliance? Kael'thas was their enemy too, why would they care what happened to him? The Scryers even abandoned him as he gave himself over to demonic forces.

    Plothole city. They had to be shoehorned in because the faction of monsters must start looking pretty like the Alliance, I guess? Being monsters was their appeal.

  17. #13877
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Donald View Post
    What is weird is that Kael'thas was the bad guy of TBC, yet him being fucked over by Garithos somehow meant that all of Quel'thalas suddenly leaves the Alliance? Kael'thas was their enemy too, why would they care what happened to him? The Scryers even abandoned him as he gave himself over to demonic forces.

    Plothole city. They had to be shoehorned in because the faction of monsters must start looking pretty like the Alliance, I guess? Being monsters was their appeal.
    The Alliance was in disarray. The majority of its remaining members had been destroyed and stormwind and ironforge were too far away to offer effective support. Garithos was leading an army of survivors but he was a terrible racist.

    Karl had the right to remove QT from the alliance for the same reason he was able to rename the high elves as the blood elves. He was the lawful prince of his people at the time. His fall, detailed in chronicles vol.3, is not a plot hole. Something is not a plot hole if the explanation exists and you were unaware of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    That was very likely Metzen's thinking. I imagine that there'd still be people asking for an Alliance-specific faction of playable high elves, but the demand would probably be a lot smaller. If Blizzard would just stop adding the odd high elf here and there to Alliance hubs, people's passion might finally start to fade. But, they had to add two to fairly visible ones to Boralus...



    I wish Blizz would add a couple of named Silver Covenant NPCs to the void elves ranks or maybe one of the named Allerian Stronghold elves, then people might be more accepting of void elves being the continuation of the Alliance-aligned Thalassians' story.
    That there are a few high elves with a alignment to the Alliance left is merely a reflection of the story.And it is more than plausible to roleplay your void elf as a SC high elf who has now embraced the void.

    But Void elves are it. They are a better foil for the blood elves than the high elf exiles were and they are the high elves of the Alliance now. They have their own destiny for players to follow.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-12-06 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Quote was missing

  18. #13878
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    It's amazing to see people time and time again willingly ignoring the fact that High elves are a thing within the Alliance regardless Blood elf's existence while stomping their feet screaming 'Factions are important!'.

    If factions are so important, then what is the problem with having the other faction have the option to play as one of their members? Aren't factions important? Is the Horde more important than the Alliance? I don't think so.

    This is asking for High elves, which one of their traits is not being Blood elves, and therefore not being Horde, it is a straightforward thing when presented with a faction based game. But yeah, suddenly Pandaren are not that big of a deal except they are a 1:1 copy between both factions instead of what High elves could be if they were made playable. Everyone whines at High elves while already having Pandaren, how amazing isn't it?

  19. #13879
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Lets be fair, it would be better for the race as a whole to get unique costumization options, instead of being BE 2.0, that way the race can slowly but surely start becoming their own thing, and not just a mix-match between BE + HE + Void
    Blood elves should get felblood or lightbound customization instead.

  20. #13880
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    And then continued to add High Elven vehicles for the War Campaign ending as well. Lol, I'm pretty sure the developers enjoy the tease.
    I think they do! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Personally I don't think the name itself is the issue, but the persistence of Alliance High Elves. If Blood Elves had never changed their name and remained High Elves, the problem would still be that there are presently both Horde and Alliance High Elves. I do wonder that if they didn't change their name would have made the developers more reticent to adding Alliance High Elves so freely.

    But we can even conceive a whole different meta of the discussion if BE's never got rebranded with the onus being put on how High Elves, by belonging two both factions are ostensibly neutral, which would have perhaps being even more contentious.



    There were so many opportunities during BfA to fold the High Elves into the Void Elves passively, and several ways where they could have made it a narrative with all the void content of BfA, specially Stormsong Valley. This is also related to the Void Elves lack of development compared to other races, because they needed the development as a group and not just a sojourn with Umbric, and it would have also given the alliance a leveling experience with more variety than just humans.

    We could have had less Quilboar and instead a questline surrounding the Void Elves helping the Storm's Wake, which could have also doubled as the SC folding into them during it -not to mention of the possibility of setting up High Elves in Kul Tiras as per the RPG, and use them to draw a connection to the Void, Umbric studies, the Silver Covenant and Jaina-
    Excellent points, dude. Blizzard wasted a lot of opportunities. The Silver Covenant could have evolved beyond just being the salty Ken to the blood elves Ryu and helped move the void elf story forward.

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