Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Manariel]

God forbid @Obelisk Kai ever admit he is flat out unable to understand what pro-HE wants, when he is the one always bringing the appearance of the BE and HE on the table. Because even if some VE were former HE beyond Alleria, and I don't see any proof of that ingame, despite your insinuations and ways to twist tweets and events in game to fit your purpose, that wouldn't make the Void Elves the kind of elves I truly want to play. My main is one for the moment because I fell in love with the Hunter class and didn't want to spend 25€ changing the race when I truly realized that I'd switch main at level 90.

But High Elves, playable high Elves, can't have chosen to become Void Elves, precisely because it runs contrary to their values and beliefs. They'd die before they'd submit to such dangerous energies.

[Aldo Hawk]

I am just trying to figure out what he really means with all this, if he think it's okay to rp as High Elf, then surely he would think that giving Void Elves a High Elf skin would fit.

There will never be anything to figure out as long as the antagonising attitude and pride isn't stripped away. It's always going to be one point, or two points, or three points, and a constant reminder that because agreement is not achieved, then it's not possible.

I have said this quite some times in this thread. Nobody here is a wow developer, and implying that any of us have a final say or such a consequential and/or deciding factor on it is not doing more than to show pure arrogance.

High elf skins on Void elves are one thing, which has no consensus at all. But another thing is to play around it to make more points than what is actually important. Is it a good way to introduce playable High elves?

Not if it is plausible. Devs decide what is plausible, and for them Wildhammer Dwarves, or Warlords of Draenor are plausible, not some forum dwellers with an overweighted ego.

I myself see Void Elves as one group. Because that's what they are and described as. Former group of Blood Elves that delved into the Void. Nothing more, nothing less. Like you know, the population was always the "main argument" of High Elves not being playable. Why wasn't it okay that the High Elves reproduced then right? It's just being hypocritical. And that's what gets me. Turning points whenever it fits. Like you know, "no no, High Elves are such a small group, can't reproduce or recruit from Silvermoon, to now where it's "oh yeah yeah, Void Elves can recruit from all over the place no problem". It's just silly at this point.

Yes, that is why it's nice to point it out.

However... To derail the conversation into pages and pages about Void elves is simply being out of the context, and the worst thing is that it has been taken into consideration just because Void elves are a form of thalassian elf, which simply misses the point entirely.

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I'm not making an argument, just an observation.

Not saying that, I said that what Kai presented is nothing more than cluster that it's only purpose is for him to make as if he has more points than what is actually there.

I do agree that you can't really play a playable Void Elf as a High Elf, though - they don't really share in the essential divide between the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, they have their own cultural (and physiological) divide between themselves and their kin that's part and parcel of their story.

Agreement or disagreement on this has no use at all. Void elves are simply inconsequential to the High elf debate as long as High elves exist.

And High elves existence is not linked to Void elves nor Blood elves. I'ts simply a different group, and by virtue of it, talking about Void elves or Blood elves serves nothing but to derail the conversation away from the idea of playable High elves.

It also creates points out of nowhere that at the end of the day mean nothing and serve no purpose aside from making appear as if there is more than what actually is.

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I do like Void Elves, but thematically, historically and lore-wise, they are a faction of Blood Elves, not High Elves. And they'll never make sense as former High Elves, because their very existence runs contrary to the distancing of dangerous magics that High Elves have chosen for themselves, both in Dalaran and Quel'danil.

I also like the idea of Void elves. It's only that it's introduction and everything that has been involving them has been a total mess. I would like for everything in the game to serve a purpose and have a place within the folklore of Warcraft. If not, it is just going to be a cluster of concepts with no real feeling of being connected to the rest.

High, Blood and Void Elves are three distinct flavors of Thalassian elves. That Horde players screams to high heavens that the Void Elves are a compromise for the former doesn't make it true. they are a mistake, lorewise and outside of it.

Exactly, that is why trying to push Void elves as the final solution is out of touch.

It failed to deliver the High elves. Also failed on other aspects but by simply failing to deliver the High elves it also means that it will never be enough unless they retcon the Void elves or advance their story drastically, as for making also the existing High elves part of their group as a whole.

Void elves have potential of their own, but not for High elves as things are.

They added one little scripted event in Telogrus and it has nothing to do with some elves being turned. One doesn't need to became a Void Elf to master the Void, as Alleria's story on Argus and prior proved, so the presence of Blood Elves and High Elves there means nothing in regard to increased numbers - numbers which have alwas been irrelevant in WoW.

I would not give too much attention to pedantic arguments. 'One character said' and 'One thing exist' isn't usually a strong argument.

[Obelisk Kai]

But High Elves, playable high Elves, can't have chosen to become Void Elves, precisely because it runs contrary to their values and beliefs. They'd die before they'd submit to such dangerous energies.

I don't know about you but it looks like these High Elves aren't dying properly to me.

[Manariel]

I don't know about you but it looks like these High Elves aren't dying properly to me.

And if you had some interest in the discussion, you'd already know that them being here means nothing, because by virtue of seeking dangerous power, and possibly becoming Void Elves, they forfeit their rights to be called High Elves, and failed to properly represent High Elves, instead acting like their blood elven cousins.

[Obelisk Kai]

And if you had some interest in the discussion, you'd already know that them being here means nothing, because by virtue of seeking dangerous power, and possibly becoming Void Elves, they forfeit their rights to be called High Elves, and failed to properly represent High Elves, instead acting like their blood elven cousins.

That's a legitimate point of view, but they are still High Elven exile who became Void Elves and didn't become Blood Elves. Which is the point of their presence.

They could have lived in Stormwind or Dalaran or Quel'Danil, could have fought beside the Alliance on the Isle of Thunder or taken part in the purge of Dalaran, all that could form part of a Void Elf's origin story should they wish it.

[Ielenia]

So?

Is a political magazine from 2006 that says George W. Bush is the US President wrong?

I think you just shot yourself in the foot, there.

For 2006? No, the magazine is not wrong.
For 2019, as in, today? Yes, it is.

The thing is that the Warcraft Encyclopedia may have been up-to-date regarding the lore during vanilla and early TBC, but just like the case with your political magazine, a lot has happened between 2006 and 2019. Which is my point. George W. Bush may have been the president of the US in 2006, but he is not the president, today.

Since 2008, the lore of the Warcraft universe has continued to expand and evolve. An example: can you find anything regarding the Worgen race or the Scythe of Elune in the Warcraft Encyclopedia?

The point is that what the Encyclopedia said about elves may have been true at the time, but it hasn't been the case for the longest time. Not only I can't recall a single time where I've seen any case of prejudice against high elves, but we also see high elves being featured more and more in Alliance storylines.

[Aldo Hawk]

That's a legitimate point of view, but they are still High Elven exile who became Void Elves and didn't become Blood Elves. Which is the point of their presence.

They could have lived in Stormwind or Dalaran or Quel'Danil, could have fought beside the Alliance on the Isle of Thunder or taken part in the purge of Dalaran, all that could form part of a Void Elf's origin story should they wish it.

If it transforms into another thing, then it's no longer a High elf, period. Then it's no longer within the matter at hand.

The thing can't be simpler than that. High elves are not Void elves, and High elves exist (and have been existing) regardless Void elves or Blood elves.

Want to play a Blood elf on the Alliance? Well, Void elves were former Blood elves, but no longer are. I'ts right in front of everyone's noses.

[Obelisk Kai]

I think you just shot yourself in the foot, there.

For 2006? No, the magazine is not wrong.
For 2019, as in, today? Yes, it is.

No, I didn't 'shoot myself in the foot'. A magazine written in 2006 is true as of 2006. More importantly, the passage of time does not mean the events detailed in that magazine did not happen, it merely means time and events have moved on. What happened in 2006 therefore is relevant as a part of the evolution to where we are today. What you are suggesting is that the passage of time means the events described never happened.

The thing is that the Warcraft Encyclopedia may have been up-to-date regarding the lore during vanilla and early TBC, but just like the case with your political magazine, a lot has happened between 2006 and 2019. Which is my point. George W. Bush may have been the president of the US in 2006, but he is not the president, today.

Since 2008, the lore of the Warcraft universe has continued to expand and evolve. An example: can you find anything regarding the Worgen race or the Scythe of Elune in the Warcraft Encyclopedia?

The point is that what the Encyclopedia said about elves may have been true at the time, but it hasn't been the case for the longest time. Not only I can't recall a single time where I've seen any case of prejudice against high elves, but we also see high elves being featured more and more in Alliance storylines.

You saw high elves involved with Dalaran storylines for the most part. During WOTLK and MOP primarily in fact, both of which heavily featured Dalaran. BFA was marketed as the faction expansion, in much the same way that Legion was the class expansion. Remember those 'it matters' adverts?

And the grand total of high elven exiles seen participating in the Alliance during that period was...drumroll please...four.

One of whom was content opening portals, two who stayed on the airship in arathi shielding things and only one of whom was actually involved in any fighting. One. Now, you've cited your 'personal experience' of seeing no distrust of high elven exiles within the Alliance. Your personal experience should therefore similarly dictate that your statement of 'high elves being featured more and more in Alliance storylines's is false. The last time they had a serious presence in the Alliance was during the isle of thunder campaign in MOP, which was over seven years ago and which took place when Dalaran was an official Alliance member again which supports the idea that the participation of the only high elf force of any strength whatsoever is contingent on Dalaran's participation.

[Thalassian Bob]

I don't think the population would be dramatically shifted by playable High Elven exiles, that isn't my concern. I think that giving the Horde an aesthetically pleasing race was one of the reasons for addition of Blood Elves and that the level of interest in Blood Elves nearly twelve years later validates that design choice.

Void Elves are a 90-95% match of a Blood Elf. They are a compromise I am not keen on, but a compromise I believe most of us can live with. It looks like Blizzard went right up to the limits of their red lines in faction diversity in giving the Alliance as close a copy as they did.

Blood Elf customization options are going to be the next trigger of debate in this thread and until then we are going to tread water going over the same topics again and again. At the moment, it is reasonable to expect eye colour options, tattoos and possibly scars.

As there are no tattoos available for Blood Elves right now, there are two primary inspirations they could with. The runic style tattoos seen on the Blood Elf on the TBC box cover, and the Farstrider tattoos from Warcraft 2, one of which is sported by Alleria. My preference would, of course, to have both as options, but it may be felt that runic style tattoos are now a Nightborne thing. This would leave the 'Farstrider' options, and I believe these are probably going to be offered to Blood Elves.

Eye colour of course opens a kettle of fish due to the prediction of blue eyes for Blood Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't (Moorgard recently confirmed that a blue eyed Blood Elf named Lanesh was not a mistake, as many pro High Elfers have argued), then I believe the pro High Elf community will rage for a few days before deciding eye colour doesn't really matter. Should Blood Elves not get blue eyes, pro High Elfers will take it as proof that Blizzard sees High Elven exiles as a distinct group and they are 'reserving' the eye colour for them, although it's probably likelier they may like to keep blue eyes as unique to Void Elves (who currently sport that eye colour). If Blizzard is wise, they should grant Blood Elves a blue eye option. Blood Elves are playable. Alliance High Elf exiles are not. Denying an option to a group that is already being played to spare the feelings of the tiny group of fans of an even tinier group of NPCs is illogical.

I'd love for all those customisation options to be available for blood elves, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see. But, you're right. Until we get something concrete from Blizzard on what new blood elf options are gonna look like it's gonna be a point of cyclical contention here.

I've always been intrigued about Lanesh (and Darnarian)! Perhaps he's one of the Allerian high elves who came home or a high elf who initially stayed away from Quel'Thalas but had a change of heart later on and became a political blood elf after the Sunwell's reclamation.

And if you had some interest in the discussion, you'd already know that them being here means nothing, because by virtue of seeking dangerous power, and possibly becoming Void Elves, they forfeit their rights to be called High Elves, and failed to properly represent High Elves, instead acting like their blood elven cousins.

All a high elf is is a Thalassian elf who, for whatever reason, did not become a blood elf or void elf. Them still being a high elf says nothing about their moral character. Some high elves joined the Scourge, some joined Malygos' insane magicidal campagin and some high elves are pirates. Even the Silver Covenant contains at least one high elf who apparently practices demonology. Just because a Thalassian is still a high elf does not mean that they are a good person or that they abhor darker magics. The only thing it really tells you about them at face value is that they weren't in Quel'Thalas during the reclamation and rebuilding. (Something that actually makes me wary of them.)

[Obelisk Kai]

I'd love for all those customisation options to be available for blood elves, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see. But, you're right. Until we get something concrete from Blizzard on what new blood elf options are gonna look like it's gonna be a point of cyclical contention here.

I've always been intrigued about Lanesh (and Darnarian)! Perhaps he's one of the Allerian high elves who came home or a high elf who initially stayed away from Quel'Thalas but had a change of heart later on and became a political blood elf after the Sunwell's reclamation.

Moorgard says Lanesh's story has yet to be told, but his existence shows blue eyed Blood Elves can and should be a thing.

And yes, right now the argument is entirely cyclical...well that's not entirely true. Given developer commentary, the existence of Void Elves and the conclusion of the BFA allied race cycle, we are at the end of the race and the winners are on the podium, but some people who haven't accepted the resulted are trying to complain to the judges and everyone else is left spinning their wheels as a result.

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All a high elf is is a Thalassian elf who, for whatever reason, did not become a blood elf or void elf. Them still being a high elf says nothing about their moral character. Some high elves joined the Scourge, some joined Malygos' insane magicidal campagin and some high elves are pirates. Even the Silver Covenant contains at least one high elf who apparently practices demonology. Just because a Thalassian is still a high elf does not mean that they are a good person or that they abhor darker magics. The only thing it really tells you about them at face value is that they weren't in Quel'Thalas during the reclamation and rebuilding. (Something that actually makes me wary of them.)

Good point regarding Malygos's magical campaign. Some High Elven exiles did participate in that. This is the danger of placing these individuals on some kind of moral pedestal. They aren't perfect and many of them really are quite willing to do reckless, selfish things in return for magic. Grand Magus Telestra may have been the perfect candidate to become a Void Elf were she still with us. High Elves craving magic therefore has precedent.

[Thalassian Bob]

Moorgard says Lanesh's story has yet to be told, but his existence shows blue eyed Blood Elves can and should be a thing.

And yes, right now the argument is entirely cyclical...well that's not entirely true. Given developer commentary, the existence of Void Elves and the conclusion of the BFA allied race cycle, we are at the end of the race and the winners are on the podium, but some people who haven't accepted the resulted are trying to complain to the judges and everyone else is left spinning their wheels as a result.

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Good point regarding Malygos's magical campaign. Some High Elven exiles did participate in that. This is the danger of placing these individuals on some kind of moral pedestal. They aren't perfect and many of them really are quite willing to do reckless, selfish things in return for magic. Grand Magus Telestra may have been the perfect candidate to become a Void Elf were she still with us. High Elves craving magic therefore has precedent.

For sure. I think plenty of the Farstriders who spent most of the reclamation period out in the wilderness putting down Scourge and being away from the mana crystals placed around Silvermoon would probably canonically have blue eyes still. Or at least a less intense fel green glow than a warlock, magister or Blood Knight (pre-Sunwell reclamation).

Haha amusing analogy! ^^

I linked Telestra because she was easily accessible (for me) and recognisable. While I'm sure many high elves joined Malygos out of self-service/preservation (just like people of all races who joined his service), Telestra's motivations are actually quite intriguing and complex.

It is rumored the Grand Magus Telestra tutored Prince Kael'thas. Though she believed the Prince allying with the naga was foolish, she could not support Dalaran imprisoning her people. Malygos only needed to remind her of this betrayal to gain her as an instructor for his mage hunters.

So, like other Kirin Tor high elves, she was probably put off returning to Quel'Thalas after learning about some of Kael'thas' leadership choices, but after Malygos had reminded her of what Dalaran's leadership had apparently condoned during the Garithos affair, she seems to have gone, "Oh yeah! Fuck these guys!".
Maybe Lanesh had a similar revelation but simply decided to join the blood elves instead of Malygos and his mage hunters?

High elves craving magic absolutely has precedent though. Just look at the grisly fate of the Quel'Lithien high elves!

[Manariel]

Good point regarding Malygos's magical campaign. Some High Elven exiles did participate in that. This is the danger of placing these individuals on some kind of moral pedestal. They aren't perfect and many of them really are quite willing to do reckless, selfish things in return for magic. Grand Magus Telestra may have been the perfect candidate to become a Void Elf were she still with us. High Elves craving magic therefore has precedent.

Actually, it seems that lust for power was not the main reason behind Telestra joining Malygos. According to the Adventure Guide "Though she believed the Prince allying with the naga was foolish, she could not support Dalaran imprisoning her people. Malygos only needed to remind her of this betrayal to gain her as an instructor for his mage hunters."

I'm sure that some craven more arcane power. But those High Elves were not seeking Fel or Void Energies, sources of power which are far more unstable and corruptive than even the Arcane, by a wide margin. It doesn't mean that some High Elves can fail to uphold the values they are supposed to defend. I think there were some HE among the Twlight Hammer. But the main faction of High Elves, the Silver Covenant -and to a lesser extent the High Elves of Quel'danil - have proven to have a differnt vision on the Alliance, the Horde, the actions of Kael'thas and even the way Quel'thalas became addicted to Arcane power.

[Obelisk Kai]

Actually, it seems that lust for power was not the main reason behind Telestra joining Malygos. According to the Adventure Guide "Though she believed the Prince allying with the naga was foolish, she could not support Dalaran imprisoning her people. Malygos only needed to remind her of this betrayal to gain her as an instructor for his mage hunters."

I'm sure that some craven more arcane power. But those High Elves were not seeking Fel or Void Energies, sources of power which are far more unstable and corruptive than even the Arcane, by a wide margin. It doesn't mean that some High Elves can fail to uphold the values they are supposed to defend. I think there were some HE among the Twlight Hammer. But the main faction of High Elves, the Silver Covenant -and to a lesser extent the High Elves of Quel'danil - have proven to have a differnt vision on the Alliance, the Horde, the actions of Kael'thas and even the way Quel'thalas became addicted to Arcane power.

Your argument isn't making sense. As each example of a High Elf who is acting recklessly in the pursuit of power is brought up, you are rationalising each one away in turn to only your own satisfaction.

You say the High Elven wayfarers aren't High Elves because they are experimenting with void magic. You say Grand Magus Telestra is ok because she was seeking arcane energy, which isn't as dangerous as fel or shadow apparently (although the Night Elves would disagree) despite the fact she betrayed everyone in her pursuit of that power.

You keep insinuating High Elves have a superior moral code that defines them, and any who don't meet that level you just discount because then they are just like a Blood Elf. Does that mean all the high elves from Quel'lithien stopped being high elves once they gave into temptation and so don't qualify as another example of high elves in the reckless pursuit of power?

Ultimately, you are wrong. That isn't how people work. The High Elven exiles are written as people. People are prone to weakness, desires and ambitions The exiles are not paragons of virtue. And if your argument against High Elves being unable to become Void Elves is based on the belief that a true high elf would be too noble to do that, then that is simple naivety.

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For sure. I think plenty of the Farstriders who spent most of the reclamation period out in the wilderness putting down Scourge and being away from the mana crystals placed around Silvermoon would probably canonically have blue eyes still. Or at least a less intense fel green glow than a warlock, magister or Blood Knight (pre-Sunwell reclamation).

Haha amusing analogy! ^^

I linked Telestra because she was easily accessible (for me) and recognisable. While I'm sure many high elves joined Malygos out of self-service/preservation (just like people of all races who joined his service), Telestra's motivations are actually quite intriguing and complex.

There are plentiful reasons and paths for Blood Elves to be granted blue eyes. I suspect we will see sometime in the spring once the alpha is in full flight. I have specifically signed up for beta testing to try out the new racial customization options and to see what is on offer myself.

So, like other Kirin Tor high elves, she was probably put off returning to Quel'Thalas after learning about some of Kael'thas' leadership choices, but after Malygos had reminded her of what Dalaran's leadership had apparently condoned during the Garithos affair, she seems to have gone, "Oh yeah! Fuck these guys!".
Maybe Lanesh had a similar revelation but simply decided to join the blood elves instead of Malygos and his mage hunters?

High elves craving magic absolutely has precedent though. Just look at the grisly fate of the Quel'Lithien high elves!

Some of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran had been there since the city's founding and numbered among those who taught the first hundred humans magic as part of the pact during the Troll Wars. Just prior to the city's destruction in the Third War, it was evacuated with Jaina leading some to Kalimdor and Kael'thas returning home. Many of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran accompanied him, as they later became the Sunreavers. But some stayed behind and helped rebuild the city. These individuals made their choice here, they chose Dalaran over Quel'thalas.

The following is speculation, but for all our talk of the schism over methods of consuming magical energies, the truth is that likely applied to those Farstriders who later populated the lodges and formed the core of the Silver Covenant. The High Elf Mages who chose to remain High Elves remained High Elves because they never left to make the choice. As you say, some of Kael's decisions must have been off putting enough that when he returned to Dalaran at the head of what was left of the thalassian army, these high elf mages decided not to rejoin their nation and instead continued to serve Dalaran.

And yes, Quel'lithien is another example of high elves giving into the reckless pursuit of magic that is the hallmark of them as a people (and by that I mean all thalassians). But it seems any High Elf who shows moral weakness is no longer a High Elf and therefore doesn't count.

[Ielenia]

What you are suggesting is that the passage of time means the events described never happened.

Well, this patently, objectively, indubitably false. I never said or implied "the events from Warcraft Encyclopedia never happened". Not sure how you can derive that from me saying "a lot happened since over ten years". Unless you're not being honest in this discussion, of course.

And the grand total of high elven exiles seen participating in the Alliance during that period was...drumroll please...four.

So you're basing your argument on the false idea that "in-game population = lore population" and you expect to be taken seriously?

Also, question for you: how many pandaren do you see helping the Alliance? I remember a whooping TWO during WoD. How many in BfA? Other than the pandaren you recruit for your missions, I don't recall seeing a single pandaren. Not even an Island Expedition team (which the HEs have, mind you).

[Thalassian Bob]

There are plentiful reasons and paths for Blood Elves to be granted blue eyes. I suspect we will see sometime in the spring once the alpha is in full flight. I have specifically signed up for beta testing to try out the new racial customization options and to see what is on offer myself.

Some of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran had been there since the city's founding and numbered among those who taught the first hundred humans magic as part of the pact during the Troll Wars. Just prior to the city's destruction in the Third War, it was evacuated with Jaina leading some to Kalimdor and Kael'thas returning home. Many of the High Elves who lived in Dalaran accompanied him, as they later became the Sunreavers. But some stayed behind and helped rebuild the city. These individuals made their choice here, they chose Dalaran over Quel'thalas.

The following is speculation, but for all our talk of the schism over methods of consuming magical energies, the truth is that likely applied to those Farstriders who later populated the lodges and formed the core of the Silver Covenant. The High Elf Mages who chose to remain High Elves remained High Elves because they never left to make the choice. As you say, some of Kael's decisions must have been off putting enough that when he returned to Dalaran at the head of what was left of the thalassian army, these high elf mages decided not to rejoin their nation and instead continued to serve Dalaran.

And yes, Quel'lithien is another example of high elves giving into the reckless pursuit of magic that is the hallmark of them as a people (and by that I mean all thalassians). But it seems any High Elf who shows moral weakness is no longer a High Elf and therefore doesn't count.

If you beat MMO-Champion to the punch, you'll have to share your findings on the extended customisation with us here!

Yeah, as something of a "Thalassian patriot", I've always held the SC in contempt for not only not being there to help their brethren bring Quel'Thalas back from the brink but also actively working against Silvermoon's interests such as with their attempt to block the Sunreaver's readmission into Dalaran by any means necessary, sometimes resorting to murderous sabotage or the infamous Purge. But, I have a little more patience regarding rank and file Kirin Tor high elves because, as you say, these are elves who've probably been in Dalaran for decades or even centuries and probably see it as more their home than Quel'Thalas. And of course, the mages of Dalaran had their own dire issues to deal with in the wake of the Third War with Archimonde's highly destructive assault on the city, so it's understandable if some of them didn't rush to "answer the call". At least they don't actively work against Quel'Thalas directly.

And, yes, it would seem that we have a "No true high elf" fallacy forming...

I think it's the placing of the exiles on a pedestal that makes people so desperate to see them as playable. Everybody loves an underdog and it seem that many people think that every high elf still lingering is this defiant, downtrodden principled objector like Hawkspear, but it's simply not the case. Just like in every race, there are decent high elves and there are arsehole high elves. Just because there's only a few left, doesn't make them all angels.

[Obelisk Kai]

If you beat MMO-Champion to the punch, you'll have to share your findings on the extended customisation with us here!

I don't think anything can beat the dataminers to the punch, but it would be nice to able to look at the new customizations on my own client rather than relying on MMO. We may however get a hint sooner, as they are currently fixing elven eyes on the PTR and I am unsure if they've added blue eyes on the high elf models yet. Once they get around to doing so, IF blue eyes are intended as a Blood Elf customization, something may show in the wowhead dressing room. After all, the high elf skins are housed on the blood elf model right now, they are several blood elf skin tones with blue rather than green eyes that blood elf players cannot access. This could be the logical moment to separate them.

Yeah, as something of a "Thalassian patriot", I've always held the SC in contempt for not only not being there to help their brethren bring Quel'Thalas back from the brink but also actively working against Silvermoon's interests such as with their attempt to block the Sunreaver's readmission into Dalaran by any means necessary, sometimes resorting to murderous sabotage or the infamous Purge. But, I have a little more patience regarding rank and file Kirin Tor high elves because, as you say, these are elves who've probably been in Dalaran for decades or even centuries and probably see it as more their home than Quel'Thalas. And of course, the mages of Dalaran had their own dire issues to deal with in the wake of the Third War with Archimonde's highly destructive assault on the city, so it's understandable if some of them didn't rush to "answer the call". At least they don't actively work against Quel'Thalas directly.

They did work against Silvermoon when they stayed with Dalaran following the purge and it joined the Alliance. Different circumstances for them compared to the rangers of the SC of course, but they still had to make a choice in the end.

And, yes, it would seem that we have a "No true high elf" fallacy forming...

That's exactly what I was thinking of, the no true Scotsman fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I knew this approach was codified somewhere. Thanks for showing me what it was.

Person A: No High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics. They would rather die.
Person B: Here is a screenshot showing high elves messing with those dangerous magics. They are quite alive.
Person A: No true High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics...

I think it's the placing of the exiles on a pedestal that makes people so desperate to see them as playable. Everybody loves an underdog and it seem that many people think that every high elf still lingering is this defiant, downtrodden principled objector like Hawkspear, but it's simply not the case. Just like in every race, there are decent high elves and there are arsehole high elves. Just because there's only a few left, doesn't make them all angels.

I have to disagree a little here. I think the root cause of the desire is the same as it always has been, the desire to have the prettiest race in the game on their preferred faction. Everything else that has been said about the exiles has been the idealised version of what they seek, this mental image of the morally perfect high elf that has calqued over their desire over the years as they have waited and waited and waited.

[Doffen]

Yes, that is why it's nice to point it out.

However... To derail the conversation into pages and pages about Void elves is simply being out of the context, and the worst thing is that it has been taken into consideration just because Void elves are a form of thalassian elf, which simply misses the point entirely.

Good thing you don't decide what we can discuss then. Stop coming into the discussion we have if you don't want to hear, we are discussing something, and when someone argues something, then I want to hear their side of the argument.

[Obelisk Kai]

Well, this patently, objectively, indubitably false. I never said or implied "the events from Warcraft Encyclopedia never happened". Not sure how you can derive that from me saying "a lot happened since over ten years". Unless you're not being honest in this discussion, of course.

Because you seek to use time to discount those events, not argue that things moved on. After all, your basis for saying there is no mistrust of high elves among the Alliance was your own personal subjective experience, not that they may have won people over in the years that followed. You simply denied the mistrust existed at all.

So you're basing your argument on the false idea that "in-game population = lore population" and you expect to be taken seriously?

No, I am pointing out your hypocrisy. You discount the canon statement that high elven exiles are mistrusted because you've personally never seen anything like it in game, yet when something in game doesn't agree with your pre-conceptions, i.e. the lack of a visible high elf presence within the alliance during the biggest faction war ever, you are quick to say 'what you see in game isn't the whole story'.

As it happens, you are wrong on both counts.

The High Elven exile were mistrusted as of the end of classic, and even if they had slowly won back a measure of trust from the Alliance, any High Elven exile who becomes a Void Elf will have to face that harsh eye of scepticism all over again as they are meddling with forbidden magics.

And the High Elven exiles are not a major part of the Alliance given their canonically affirmed incredibly small population and the fact most of them live in Dalaran, which is a neutral city and which did not participate in the recent war. So what was seen in game here actually tallies with what was said out of game.

Also, question for you: how many pandaren do you see helping the Alliance? I remember a whooping TWO during WoD. How many in BfA? Other than the pandaren you recruit for your missions, I don't recall seeing a single pandaren. Not even an Island Expedition team (which the HEs have, mind you).

Pandaren don't face the same tests. They are already playable and have nothing to prove.

[Doffen]

snip

We have discussed this like 3 times now, not sure that we have to point out our arguments another time, but one thing you haven't answered:

So, Alleria is a Void Elf you say, but she can be in her High Elf form as she pleases. She is a High Elf as you also say, not former Blood Elf. And you say it's more than fine that Void Elf players can RP as former Alliance High Elves, like Alleria. But I have seen you being opposed to the idea of High Elf skin for Void Elf players. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?

Surely it must be okay that those Void Elf players who RP as High Elves get a High Elf customization then?

[Thalassian Bob]

I don't think anything can beat the dataminers to the punch, but it would be nice to able to look at the new customizations on my own client rather than relying on MMO.


They did work against Silvermoon when they stayed with Dalaran following the purge and it joined the Alliance. Different circumstances for them compared to the rangers of the SC of course, but they still had to make a choice in the end.


That's exactly what I was thinking of, the no true Scotsman fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I knew this approach was codified somewhere. Thanks for showing me what it was.

Person A: No High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics. They would rather die.
Person B: Here is a screenshot showing high elves messing with those dangerous magics. They are quite alive.
Person A: No true High Elf would ever mess with such dangerous magics...


I have to disagree a little here. I think the root cause of the desire is the same as it always has been, the desire to have the prettiest race in the game on their preferred faction. Everything else that has been said about the exiles has been the idealised version of what they seek, this mental image of the morally perfect high elf that has calqued over their desire over the years as they have waited and waited and waited.

1.) True, I did quite enjoy getting onto the MoP beta back when I modded on here!

2.) That is regrettably true. But, as we mentioned earlier, some of them have probably been in Dalaran for years so I suppose a lot of them have probably become Kirin Tor first and high elven second, so I begrudgingly understand it.

3.) No problem!

4.) You could be right there. That's no doubt a huge part of it for a lot of people. But, I think it's a blend of the two to varying degrees depending on the individual in question.