Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Manariel]

I would say that a lot of the split between pro HE and anti HE people aligns with the "Race<Alignment" v/s "Race>Alignment" correspondingly.

Most people that support HE's seem to agree that political alignment and ideology are more relevant distinctions than biology, with the anti side holding the inverse -mostly because faction identity and exclusivity- and to be honest, it also coincides with a "Lore v/s Gameplay" perspective. That's why most anti HE lore arguments just don't hold water and are contradicted by other lore.

Now, this is a game, so I do get why gameplay can be more relevant than lore -in fact, it has been in many cases- but in terms of lore, there's no reason why HE's couldn't be an AR. When the reasons that truly stop them from being one are gameplay ones. As such, that's the reason why the anti side lore arguments are just so redundant.

It is indeed the crux of the disagreement.

Another one is the fact that Blizzard keeps pushing the idea that small groups are bound to become extinct real soon. When it isn't the case IRL. Some populations have survived from the longest time with very few peoples, others saw their numbers dwindle only to then regrow stronger over time, etc. And in that regard, Quel'danil and the rest of the High Elves enclaves probably allow for sufficient safety for their numbers to grow back over time, if they are cautious.

Yes, we didn't see the Silver Covenant in BfA. But it's actually rather logical on a gameplay and outside lore reason. Blizzard saw the backlash with the Void Elves. They know that a lot of Alliance players were unhappy with them and that even Horde players agreed that they butchered the lore. Using High Elves alongside them would have been salt in the wounds and led to rawer reactions, something Blizz obviously wanted to avoid.

And I can prove that it's all gameplay, because I don't think i've met normal Draeneï taking part in the war in significant number (or even small numbers, really). Lightforged got the spotlight (and hopefully it means Blizzard will use the normal ones more like in WoD, with resurgent Rangari, Shamans etc. in the future). It doesn't meant that they are neutrals or something. Blizzard just decided to highlight how important/effective the LF and VE were for the war effort, to the players.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It is indeed the crux of the disagreement.

Another one is the fact that Blizzard keeps pushing the idea that small groups are bound to become extinct real soon. When it isn't the case IRL. Some populations have survived from the longest time with very few peoples, others saw their numbers dwindle only to then regrow stronger over time, etc. And in that regard, Quel'danil and the rest of the High Elves enclaves probably allow for sufficient safety for their numbers to grow back over time, if they are cautious.

Yes, we didn't see the Silver Covenant in BfA. But it's actually rather logical on a gameplay and outside lore reason. Blizzard saw the backlash with the Void Elves. They know that a lot of Alliance players were unhappy with them and that even Horde players agreed that they butchered the lore. Using High Elves alongside them would have been salt in the wounds and led to rawer reactions, something Blizz obviously wanted to avoid.

And I can prove that it's all gameplay, because I don't think i've met normal Draeneï taking part in the war in significant number (or even small numbers, really). Lightforged got the spotlight (and hopefully it means Blizzard will use the normal ones more like in WoD, with resurgent Rangari, Shamans etc. in the future). It doesn't meant that they are neutrals or something. Blizzard just decided to highlight how important/effective the LF and VE were for the war effort, to the players.

The issue of extinction by itself even, is not sufficiently addressed; High Elves have been described as going the way of the dodo on the Encyclopedia, which came 2 years before WotlLK, with a city full of High Elves. And never in game the fact they are a dwindling or nearly extinct group has been brought up.

And even so, we literally have a playable race that is unable to reproduce or create more; the Void Elves. I'm sure like the Forsaken they will be given a way to reproduce somehow, but actual present viability is evidently not a requirement to be a playable race.

[ravenmoon]

This is very well said and explained. To differentiate like you did here should tell people that they can be the same, but still so different because their alliegence is whats important here.

Yep, it's one of those things more common in wow because sometime race means facion, and these are not necessarily the entire genetic related group because we know them as the playable "races" - which at first may have been conveyed as all members of that race o most layers (although it never really was as Darkspear trolls from the start were a small faction of trolls, not all of them) but then people easiliy confuse things.

The other prominent example in discussions of this big issue is with night elves. Night elves as a faction almost exclusively refers to the majorly druidc/priestly Darnassians who banned arcane magic for nearly 1-k years, but the race night elves include many other factions and groups like Illidari, shen'dralar highborne, Moonguard, Farondis highborne, and from an umbrella group perspective, nightborne are an off shoot night elf too, where night elf is predominantly a kaldorei based nocturnal elf, which is exactly what the nightborne are as distinguished racially from the night elf as the void elf is from the blood elf, but still under the main umbrella.

When usually talking about arcane magic or savagery of the night elves, you would find people deny that night elves wield arcane magic or are civilized, when they do that you often find out they are referring to the Night Elf faction which is why we normally refer to that famous group as the Darnassians, to distinguish that not all nigh elves race are that

When night elves were first revealed, the only ones we knew of were all together I the sme political afliation and we could easily interchange night elf race and Night Elf faction. But as they added more eisting and unaffliated night elves in 1.1, 4.0, 7.0 it became clear that the race was bigger than the existing faction, but most don't update or adapt their lore knowledge

[Doffen]

I would say that a lot of the split between pro HE and anti HE people aligns with the "Race<Alignment" v/s "Race>Alignment" correspondingly.

Most people that support HE's seem to agree that political alignment and ideology are more relevant distinctions than biology, with the anti side holding the inverse -mostly because faction identity and exclusivity- and to be honest, it also coincides with a "Lore v/s Gameplay" perspective. That's why most anti HE lore arguments just don't hold water and are contradicted by other lore.

Now, this is a game, so I do get why gameplay can be more relevant than lore -in fact, it has been in many cases- but in terms of lore, there's no reason why HE's couldn't be an AR. When the reasons that truly stop them from being one are gameplay ones. As such, that's the reason why the anti side lore arguments are just so redundant.

Yeah, I have said it before, High Elves is THE definition of an Allied Race, and you are completely correct, gameplay is the restriction, not the lore. And to me gameplay is the one only reason why blizzard has decided to not make them a playable Allied Race. There is really no other argument against that holds water towards playable High Elves for the Alliance.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yeah, I have said it before, High Elves is THE definition of an Allied Race, and you are completely correct, gameplay is the restriction, not the lore. And to me gameplay is the one only reason why blizzard has decided to not make them a playable Allied Race. There is really no other argument against that holds water towards playable High Elves for the Alliance.

The lore justification is that they are almost dead, those who cling to the moniker scattered to the four winds. That of course is subservient to the gameplay explanation, that an identical group representative of the entire species is already playable and is a core part of the opposing faction. To say gameplay alone is responsible is incorrect, as while it is the primary reason, there is a lore rationale.

On the topic of High Elves being THE definition of an allied race, they cannot be. Because when they were considered they were rejected, establishing that at the bare minimum an Allied race must be a variant and not differentiated solely by ideology. The archetypal Allied race is therefore the Mag'har Orcs, the original sub-race request that was asked for as soon as they were revealed in TBC and who have finally made it into the game.

[scubi666stacy]

Yeah, I have said it before, High Elves is THE definition of an Allied Race, and you are completely correct, gameplay is the restriction, not the lore. And to me gameplay is the one only reason why blizzard has decided to not make them a playable Allied Race. There is really no other argument against that holds water towards playable High Elves for the Alliance.

Plot devices are by definition not suited to be player characters.

[Doffen]

The lore justification is that they are almost dead, those who cling to the moniker scattered to the four winds. That of course is subservient to the gameplay explanation, that an identical group representative of the entire species is already playable and is a core part of the opposing faction. To say gameplay alone is responsible is incorrect, as while it is the primary reason, there is a lore rationale.

On the topic of High Elves being THE definition of an allied race, they cannot be. Because when they were considered they were rejected, establishing that at the bare minimum an Allied race must be a variant and not differentiated solely by ideology. The archetypal Allied race is therefore the Mag'har Orcs, the original sub-race request that was asked for as soon as they were revealed in TBC and who have finally made it into the game.

I am just gonna answer once, not bothering taking more time to argue about something for the 100th time.

Alliance High Elves is the definition of an Allied Race, Mag'har Orc is another good example. It's just when it comes to gameplay they are too similar to Blood Elves, when it comes to looks across factions. That's the only reason. Alliance High Elves have been in the Alliance and have been affiliated with the Alliance for a very long time. HM Taurens, LF Draeneis for example has not been affiliated with the factions before. So the logical thing would be to bring a race that are very familiar with the Alliance. High Elves checks out for all the requirements to be an Allied Race. Not only that, HM Taurens, LF Draeneis and to lesser degree, Mag'har Orc are are just as similar to already existing races as High Elves is to Blood Elves. Factions, when it comes to gameplay, is the ONLY reason why they are not an Allied Race. If you think about it, High Elves in the Alliance are very special when it comes to this, it's the only faction affiliated race which is active in the current settings that isn't an Allied Race. I can't help but feel for those who want to see this happening. Blizzard has really gone out of their way for not allowing High Elves to be playable.

TLDR: You mention Mag'har Orc, which just like High Elves are now for the Alliance, never been introduced properly into the Horde as an own thing before now. The only difference between them is the models across factions. And that's pretty much everything that is in the way for High Elves becoming an Allied Race. Skin color was the one reason that differentiate those two races when it came to making them playable or not. Lore reason got nothing to do with it, you are incorrect.

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Plot devices are by definition not suited to be player characters.

Lightforged Draeneis, Highmountain Taurens, Nightborne, Zandalari Trolls, Kul Tiran Humans, Vulperas and Mechagon Gnomes would like to have a word with you. They were all plot devices. Difference is that Alliance High Elves was that 10 years before these.

[Obelisk Kai]

TLDR: You mention Mag'har Orc, which just like High Elves are now for the Alliance, never been introduced properly into the Horde as an own thing before now. The only difference between them is the models across factions. And that's pretty much everything that is in the way for High Elves becoming an Allied Race. Skin color was the one reason that differentiate those two races when it came to making them playable or not. Lore reason got nothing to do with it, you are incorrect.

Mag'har Orcs are not like High Elves. Mag'har Orcs are a variant of ordinary Orcs. That is why they were asked for in the first place. And they were not asked for as a distinct race, they were asked for a suite of customization options on ordinary Orcs.

A lore rationale has been presented several times as to why the high elven exiles were never added. That they are almost all dead and the survivors scattered across the planet, surviving where they can.

Yes that is subservient to the gameplay rationale that high elves are already playable as thriving core horde race, but if the high elven exiles were portrayed as anything other than the dying remnants of a bunch of political malcontents, if they were portrayed as a strong and viable faction, the gameplay rationale would be given even less credence than it currently is by the pro High Elf community.

Lightforged Draeneis, Highmountain Taurens, Nightborne, Zandalari Trolls, Kul Tiran Humans, Vulperas and Mechagon Gnomes would like to have a word with you. They were all plot devices. Difference is that Alliance High Elves was that 10 years before these.

Each and every single one of these examples is in some way different from the parent race. Some far more than others admittedly, but all are different. The High Elven exiles are identical. That is the difference between them and all other groups

Blizzard has really gone out of their way for not allowing High Elves to be playable.

Yes, they have. Which is a telltale sign to those who believe all they have to do is ask enough, or demonstrate their commitment enough in the hopes it would melt Blizzard's heart, or wait long enough that they are very likely wasting their time.

They don't want to add high elves to the Alliance without alteration.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yes, they have. Which is a telltale sign to those who believe all they have to do is ask enough, or demonstrate their commitment enough in the hopes it would melt Blizzard's heart, or wait long enough that they are very likely wasting their time.

The bold insinuates people are somehow not having a fulfilling time while continuing their request for High Elves. This isn't correct in the slightest bit.

I am having a grand time with WoW. And if/when I get bored and lapse the sub to do other things, I will continue having a grand time while also being able to request for High Elves.

It only takes 1 post for someone to add their "voice" to the forums/community sites for this request and then continue doing whatever it is they find fulfilling of their time.

And the even better part is that this request is still so big that it doesn't require the same individuals to keep continuing the request if those individuals find it a waste of their time.

People have been wanting High Elves on the Alliance for so long that the request itself has become a staple of race-related requests, similar to Ogres.

It requires such little time to be part of this request that I actually find it very likely people are not wasting their time.

[matrix123mko]

Warcraft Reforged has added different skins for high and blood elf units.



Of note is that high elves can have blue, orange or pink eyes now, while blood elves are always green-eyed.

Fire magic can paint elven eyes? Interesting. We have art of mages with orange eyes when they are casting spells but this is out-of-combat.

[FlubberPuddy]

Warcraft Reforged has added different skins for high and blood elf units.



Of note is that high elves can have blue, orange or pink eyes now, while blood elves are always green-eyed.

They should honestly just somehow port this model to World of Warcraft for Alliance High Elves.

Looks like a different style of high elf just like the Nightborne look like a different style of night elf.

And this also shows that you can make “fair skin aesthetic” visually various, as none of these skins here look anywhere close to what Blood Elves have in-game yet these can still be considered “fair skin” colors.

So Blizzard has shown that there isn’t only way to convey a “fair skin tone” aesthetic, just like they have various different “blue skin tone” races such as the Nightborne, Night Elf, Draenei, Void Elves, Naga, and now joining in Shadowlands the Kyrian.

[Aldo Hawk]

Plot devices are by definition not suited to be player characters.

Excuse me sir, but the definition you are talking about can only come from such places as the urban dictionary. Wrote by maybe yourself.

What about Garrosh? How does he dare to be a plot device and become a protagonist? Or Saurfang?

Better call Saul by the way.

Maybe a plot device is not what you think it is. And, for a more clear and near example; Almost any Allied Race was a 'plot device'.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The lore justification is that they are almost dead, those who cling to the moniker scattered to the four winds.

Which is patently untrue when you have Alliance and Neutral ones settled on Dalaran, and the ones on Quel'Lithien, and possibly the ones in the Allerian Stronghold. A far cry from being "scattered to the four winds."

And yet, a race with no viability, Void Elves, is a playable race. Considering that biologically High Elves and Blood Elves are practically the same, High and Void Elves have like the same chances of bolstering their numbers with BE deserters, well, if Void Elves manage to reproduce the process that created them.

When a race with even less viability than High Elves is playable, continue to hold the idea that there's a lore justification is simply disingenuous. High Elves fulfill all the lore requisites other AR have, except one, their model existing on the other faction, which is entirely a gameplay issue.

I'm summary, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

[bdlovelace]

And yet, a race with no viability, Void Elves, is a playable race. Considering that biologically High Elves and Blood Elves are practically the same, High and Void Elves have like the same chances of bolstering their numbers with BE deserters, well, if Void Elves manage to reproduce the process that created them.

gonna quote the game director here, something you guys like to ignore

'void elves pretty much another flavor of high elves'

seems like the only requisite to be eligible for an AR is to be distinct from an already available option

population isnt the problem its just the one you guys feel comfortable attacking

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

gonna quote the game director here, something you guys like to ignore

'void elves pretty much another flavor of high elves'

seem like the only requisite to be eligible for an AR is to be distinct from an already available option

population isnt the problem its just the one you guys feel comfortable attacking

Since you don't seem to have understood the point I'm actually making, I'm gonna repeat myself:

I'm summary, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

As stated in the actual conversation, the point is that there are no lore reasons that make HE unfit to be an AR when compared with other AR, such as VE. As you are literally saying, VE are playable because they are deemed to look different enough.

And I think "They look different" is pretty much agreeable to be a gameplay justification, not a lore one.

Void Elves fail to be a competently set up race, they just look cool, and that was all there was needed, because this was a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

[bdlovelace]

Void Elves fail to be a competently set up race, they just look cool, and that was all there was needed, because this was a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

that doesnt make sense lore-wise either. as kai pointed out, described by every in and out of game source AS A NEARLY DEAD DYING POLITICAL ADJECTIVE

youre arguing that requires playable representation? thats laughable, what you see is all there is

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

that doesnt make sense lore-wise either. as kai pointed out, described by every in and out of game source AS A NEARLY DEAD DYING POLITICAL ADJECTIVE

youre arguing that requires playable representation? thats laughable, what you see is all there is

And as I have pointed out, Void Elves, a race with no possibility to reproduce, are playable; so they are LESS viable than High Elves. Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? You can't endorse the argument that HE are a dying race when Void Elves, a non-viable race, exists.

And as also pointed out, given that Blood Elves and High Elves are practically identical biologically, then both Void Elves and High Elves have the same option to recruit new members from Blood Elven exiles.

[FlubberPuddy]

The Highborne have faded from existence, as soon will the Quel'dorei, hopefully. We have FOUR races of playable elves. That's enough. End of story.

With the increased customizations coming we're about to get 6 different trolls, 6 different undead, 7-8 different humans, etc etc. Since looks are what people focus on.

Allied Races became a redundant idea, and I foresee Blizzard just increasing current race customization variety going forward while keeping newer race spots open to only uniquely different models like before (ex: Blood Elves/Draenei/Worgen/Goblin/Panda).

There's no longer a need to do something like another Lightforged Draenei or Highmountain Tauren or Void Elf or Mag'har Orc. They can simply increase the customizations of these existing races with the systems they have in place now.

Besides, in a lot of conventional fantasy universes having like 6+ elf types isn't out of the ordinary. While WoW does include unconventional things in its universe, it's also pretty conventional (Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes/Elves get along, Orcs are savage/Horde considered monstruous, etc). WoW in essence chooses when to be conventional or not and they're not doing anything out of the ordinary regarding the amount of elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Which is patently untrue when you have Alliance and Neutral ones settled on Dalaran, and the ones on Quel'Lithien, and possibly the ones in the Allerian Stronghold. A far cry from being "scattered to the four winds."

And yet, a race with no viability, Void Elves, is a playable race. Considering that biologically High Elves and Blood Elves are practically the same, High and Void Elves have like the same chances of bolstering their numbers with BE deserters, well, if Void Elves manage to reproduce the process that created them.

When a race with even less viability than High Elves is playable, continue to hold the idea that there's a lore justification is simply disingenuous. High Elves fulfill all the lore requisites other AR have, except one, their model existing on the other faction, which is entirely a gameplay issue.

I'm summary, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

It is not untrue. The population of exiles is very low. Quel'Danil (I believe you meant Quel'Danil as Quel'lithien has been destroyed by their own idiocy) is a hut in the middle of the woods. It's not a city. It's not a village. It is at best an outpost. it is not a center of civilization, it is an example of a few malcontents clustering out in the woods to avoid the law.

Allerian Stronghold is even worse. There are only five or six high elven exiles there with the majority of the population being Human. I think those high elven exiles might be the only ones in all of Outland. It is also a Human majority town. And while this is pure speculation, I bet an updated outland wouldn't even have that anymore. They've probably gone back to Azeroth.

If any Blood Elf was going to make the transition to high elf over a political ideology, they likely already would have done so. It is taking the lure of new power to convince them to make the faction jump, from Blood Elf to Void Elf. All the exiles offer is precisely that, exile with no upside.

Were the high elves actually a viable force, the incomprehension of the pro High Elf community at them not being added would be frequently referenced. That they are not a viable force, that in fact they are continually referred to as almost dead, no sense of who or what they are, scattered to the four winds, that their population is extremely low leads to pro High Elfers rejecting the lore rationale. That you don't like the lore rationale is obvious, but a lore rationale does exist.

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And as I have pointed out, Void Elves, a race with no possibility to reproduce, are playable; so they are LESS viable than High Elves. Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? You can't endorse the argument that HE are a dying race when Void Elves, a non-viable race, exists.
.

Actually I can. Because Void Elves can almost certainly reproduce by converting Blood Elves or High Elf exiles. Void Elf numbers can therefore be explained as new recruits to the cause. High Elven exiles would need to reproduce the normal way, and as Elisande pointed out, they seem to be doing that with Humans rather than other Elves.

Void Elves are not bound by the population argument, as you can always rapidly make more and justify where they came from.

[Ielenia]

Actually I can. Because Void Elves can almost certainly reproduce by converting Blood Elves or High Elf exiles. Void Elf numbers can therefore be explained as new recruits to the cause. High Elven exiles would need to reproduce the normal way, and as Elisande pointed out, they seem to be doing that with Humans rather than other Elves.

That is false. That is not the only way. New Thalassian elves could join the high elves. Either from lands unknown (to us, the players) or come from alternate dimensions, or even dissatisfied blood elves could leave Silvermoon and the Horde to join the high elves.

Void Elves are not bound by the population argument, as you can always rapidly make more and justify where they came from.

And neither are the high elves.