1. #13981
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Interesting question, I never realized that.

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    Why were the SC absent in this war as a collective militia group? Why are there only 2 high elf individuals participating?

    Anduin states in CGI cinematic that the Alliance are nearly out of troops and they'll have to start using farmers soon. If the SC were an Alliance militia group, not a militia group of the Kirin Tor (ie neutral nation), then I'd be pretty pissed (if I were Anduin) if this Alliance militia group decided not to turn up to the war and instead had 2 de-facto representatives sitting on some air ship.

    So either the SC are an Alliance group who practically abandoned the Alliance during one of their most bloody wars (wouldn't be the first time alliance high elf exiles abandoned those close to them), or they're a militia group of the Kirin Tor and as such their neutrality prevented them from participating under the banner of the SC and as a collective unit.
    Blizzard just prefers to show void elves which are a playable race instead of high elves which aren't.

    But still. 2 Silver Covenant elves and 2 magisters added in Stormwind. 1 in Stromgarde 1 in Kultiras and 2 others in Stromgarde. That's enough.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  2. #13982
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The neutrality of the Kirin Tor only prevents them from indulging in open hostility, the same as the Horde and Alliance can't attack one another in Shattrath City due to the Sha'tar's insistence on neutrality. That doesn't make them neutral in and of themselves, nor does it confer neutrality to their respective organizations.

    Exactly, the Silver Covenant cannot engage in open hostilities with the Horde due to the prohibition of the Kirin Tor. As I said, the Silver Covenant is not neutral through choice but because of circumstances, they are limited by the laws of the nation they have chosen to live in. The Silver Covenant as an organisation cannot fight for the Alliance directly as a result. After all, if a militia based in a city state started attacking one group of nations to assist another group of nations, would that not render the neutrality of that city state a joke? Would it not invite attack upon that city state? As long as a high elf exile wears the uniform of the silver covenant, they cannot openly attack the Horde (no matter how much they may wish to).


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Thalen Songweaver was actually a member of the Kirin Tor in good standing, above and beyond his Sunreaver affiliation. Rhonin actually recommended him for the mission in Theramore, not knowing of his direct loyalty to Garrosh. The Silver Covenant and Sunreavers weren't involved in the Pandaria conflict prior to the Purge because it didn't concern them and was happening half a world away. It wasn't until the conflict was brought home to them, in which Dalaran suspended its neutrality, that they got directly involved.
    The Pandaria conflict was a global conflict which it had it's roots in the cataclysm, lest you forget the Horde expansion in Stonetalon Mountains, Ashenvale Forest, Gilneas, Hillsbrad and Azshara as well as skirmishes in the swamp of sorrows. In truth it's scale was such that it logically should have been fourth war, but Blizzard is in charge of the nomenclature and so it is remembered as the Pandaria campaign due to that continent's discovery precipitating the lurch into full scale war.
    While the war waged, the reason the Sunreavers and Silver Covenant weren't involved is that they lived in Dalaran and Dalaran was trying to be neutral. Dalaran became involved in the conflict when the leader of the Kirin Tor, Jaina Proudmoore, violated neutrality to aid the Alliance in one of their war goals regarding the divine bell. Neutrality fully broke down when Jaina felt lied to by the Sunreavers and purged them and the rest of the Horde from Dalaran, aligning the city fully with the Alliance. As the ghost of Rhonin taunting her in Thoros proves, subconsciously she feels that her decision making was warped by her personal animosity towards the Horde at the time, showing her 'aspiration' to be better did not survive the first excuse she found to get rid of them.
    Once Dalaran was directly involved in the war on the side of the Alliance, the Silver Covenant was unleashed. But it is worth pointing out the Silver Covenant was not unleashed as the Silver Covenant. They were a part of the Kirin Tor Offensive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Hostile != neutral, in any context. Dalaran constrains them, yes, but they remain completely partisan and non-neutral.
    That seems to be an unnecessarily fine parsing of words. No matter how partisan they are, they are still constrained by Dalaran's neutrality and they cannot act directly against the Horde without imperiling Dalaran's neutrality. If the issue at stake is that the use of the word 'neutrality' implies they don't have Alliance sympathies, I iopen to suggestions for a replacement that conveys their partisan attitudes whilst simultaeneously emphasising that the cannot fight due to the laws of Dalaran. Sympathetic perhaps? At the moment, I believe describing the Silver Covenant as neutral is fair. The Kirin Tor is similarly full of individuals who would clearly like to be more openly pro Alliance, yet they too are constrained by neutrality. Nobody has an issue describing the Kirin Tor as neutral despite the feelings of those individuals, in the same way describing the Silver Covenant as neutral is only technically correct.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are orders previously centered in Dalaran - it makes sense they don't have much of a role when Dalaran isn't involved in the central narrative. The same reason the Sha'tar don't tend to involve themselves in direct conflicts. Vareesa's presence in Zul'Aman is canon, though; as it's been referred to as an event that occurred such as in the Hunter Order Hall campaign in Legion.
    If the Silver Covenant were an independent organisation pledged to the Alliance and not bound by the Kirin Tor, they should have been seen during the Fourth War. That they were not seen suggests two possibilities, which are not mutually exclusive.

    That the Silver Covenant is bound by the neutrality of Dalaran and cannot actively assist the Alliance. And that the Silver Covenant, an organization consisting almost entirely of a political splinter faction whose numbers have been attested to time and time and time again as being extremely low, suffered grievous losses in the period from WOTLK to the end of Legion and can no longer function. After all, the Silver Enclave was turned over to the Worgen in Legion, perhaps the Silver Covenant was no longer large enough to justify exclusive use of those quarters?



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That doesn't make them neutral, either.
    Had they been an independent, active organisation serving the Alliance, then they would have begun participating against the Horde from the moment the conflict began in Cataclysm.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Neither are the Sunreavers in any official capacity.
    The Sunreavers were folded into the Horde military as a result of the purge and do not seem to exist as a distinct group at this time. They were for example absent during the Legion campaign, with only Aethas Sunreaver seeking readmission to Dalaran through the Mage order hall campaign. In contrast, the Silver Covenant pledged itself to the Hunter Order Hall. The Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are no longer mirrored counterparts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Silver Covenant has a distinction that their Blood Elven peers don't share in, as their membership is comprised entirely of a group that is critically endangered in terms of population. They can't afford to commit themselves willy-nilly to every Alliance engagement, as they likely lack the numbers to do so. There are a good deal many more Blood Elves than there are High Elven exiles, after all. It makes sense the Sunreavers would have more numbers, and be able to have a greater profile in terms of their overall presence.
    This concern did not stop their commitment to the war effort on the Isle of Thunder, nor their fight against the Legion as part of the Kirin Tor forces liberating Suramar or their contribution to the Hunter Order Hall. That they are absent during a faction war when Dalaran was neutral, but present in a faction war when Dalaran was not, again either indicates they are bound by Dalaran neutrality, or they have been so depleted by these campaigns that the Silver Covenant is essentially non functional at this point, or even both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You're the one making the temporal implication. That summoning room was added during BfA, therefore everything in there is more current than anything before. Hence why you see a Void Elf being trained by a High Elf mage, it shows that currently the High Elven mage trainer has received new pupils and is teaching them now.
    The Mage trainer is current and has been there in one form or another since classic. But the gateway to old Dalaran cannot be trusted as there cannot be two Dalarans at once. It has to be assumed it is there for gameplay purposes rather than being an actual reflection of the lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    As I asked earlier and you ignored, I'll do so again: Where is your proof that Silver Covenant has become neutral and "are constrained"? Also it isn't the first time that 7th Legion High Elves were faction-tagged as Silver Covenant. As early as wrath (and I believe that's when the 7th Legion was formed), there have been 7th Legion High Elf mages that have been faction-tagged as Silver Covenant.
    If the Silver Covenants exists and did not fight in the war, there has to be a rationale for that, and being constrained by Dalaran's neutrality is the obvious one.
    If those faction tagged mages existed as early as WOTLK, that implies what was found in the datamining is an artifact from WOTLK and that the shield mages on the airship cannot be assumed to have anything to do with the SC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Silver Covenant was introduced as an Alliance faction and they have stayed as an Alliance faction. Just because you keep repeating that they're neutral doesn't make it true, and there is a mountain of evidence in-game that displays their affiliation to the Alliance.
    If they were a part of the Alliance, why did they not fight in the war? Why have they only ever fought when Dalaran is around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    At this point you're not introducing any new information that hasn't been discussed in terms of the Silver Covenant so I'm not going to comment on it any more. You can keep believing what you wish, but it's sufficient for me to see others also agreeing that Silver Covenant are an Alliance faction.
    Isn't the same people agreeing with you (who almost all seem to be pro High Elfers) and you using that as some sort of proof a textbook case of confirmation bias?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    There is no misinterpreting. Because your example simply does not work. What happened over ten years ago, happened over ten years ago. Not now. If I read in a history book that says that, in the seventeen-hundreds, the US was a colony of Britain, it does not mean they are STILL a colony today.
    No but if they hadn't been a colony back then people might be wondering where everyone in the US initially came from. Just because it is old does not mean it didn't happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    An arbitrary "minimum requirement" that void elves have shown does not exist.
    We have been over this. There is the general standard of differentiation, where changing skin tone, theme and aesthetic is sufficient in the eyes of the developers, and there is the Ielenia standard of differentiation, where sharing a silhouette means the developers are wrong. I have no desire to relitigate this entirely pointless argument with you because I do not wish to yet again go into detail on the differences between similar and identical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not about "personal experience", it's about actual in-game evidence of high elves working fine alongside the Alliance and complete lack of evidence of high elves being mistrusted by the Alliance.
    The evidence is mentioned in the still canon encyclopedia. And we can see how the Night Elves mocked the Blood Elves for their addiction prior to the liberation of Suramar. An addiction the High Elven exiles share because Blood Elves and the High Elven exiles are the exact same people.

    Also, have you talked to every single Alliance soldier? Have you talked to every single civilian? Have you confirmed not one of them mistrusts the high elven exiles for the actions of Silvermoon? No? That's because you can't. Most NPCs are background filler. The general mistrust mentioned in the canon encyclopedia probably refers to a mistrust held by the Alliance civilian population against thalassian elves they would barely encounter because of their rarity within the Alliance. Most thalassian elves are Horde. And the most active thalassians in the Alliance now are void crazed maniacs, which can't help their reputation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet you're the only one talking about "wiping everything away every fine minutes" while I'm talking about evolution of lore.
    When I talk about evolution of lore, I connect point A to point B and to point C. When you talk about evolution of lore, you arrive at point C and declare points A and B no longer matter, were never visited and likely never existed in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet both of those examples did happen. Have you honestly stopped not only playing WoW, but also stopping reading everything about the game's lore by the end of Cataclysm?

    Because "hidden lands" happened first in MoP, with the Pandaria continent. And then "alternate dimensions" happened with WoD, with Alternate Draenor.
    Yes, they happened because there was a need for new content. What is ridiculous is the idea that they will go to the trouble of doing this just to give you white skinned elves. If they had wanted to do that, they wouldn't have created Void Elves.

  3. #13983
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Exactly, the Silver Covenant cannot engage in open hostilities with the Horde due to the prohibition of the Kirin Tor. As I said, the Silver Covenant is not neutral through choice but because of circumstances, they are limited by the laws of the nation they have chosen to live in. The Silver Covenant as an organisation cannot fight for the Alliance directly as a result. After all, if a militia based in a city state started attacking one group of nations to assist another group of nations, would that not render the neutrality of that city state a joke? Would it not invite attack upon that city state? As long as a high elf exile wears the uniform of the silver covenant, they cannot openly attack the Horde (no matter how much they may wish to).
    True, but again, being constrained by their host doesn't automatically confer the host's neutral status onto them - they're both inwardly and outwardly partisan. This is directly shown in WotLK by the Silver Covenant and Sunreaver camps outside of Dalaran (in Crystalsong Forest), who are directly opposed to one another beyond the aegis of Dalaran's neutrality. The same is true for the Argent Tournament grounds, where they directly oppose one another in Fordring's tournament, acting as partisan groups affiliated with their chosen faction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Pandaria conflict was a global conflict which it had it's roots in the cataclysm, lest you forget the Horde expansion in Stonetalon Mountains, Ashenvale Forest, Gilneas, Hillsbrad and Azshara as well as skirmishes in the swamp of sorrows. In truth it's scale was such that it logically should have been fourth war, but Blizzard is in charge of the nomenclature and so it is remembered as the Pandaria campaign due to that continent's discovery precipitating the lurch into full scale war. While the war waged, the reason the Sunreavers and Silver Covenant weren't involved is that they lived in Dalaran and Dalaran was trying to be neutral. Dalaran became involved in the conflict when the leader of the Kirin Tor, Jaina Proudmoore, violated neutrality to aid the Alliance in one of their war goals regarding the divine bell. Neutrality fully broke down when Jaina felt lied to by the Sunreavers and purged them and the rest of the Horde from Dalaran, aligning the city fully with the Alliance. As the ghost of Rhonin taunting her in Thoros proves, subconsciously she feels that her decision making was warped by her personal animosity towards the Horde at the time, showing her 'aspiration' to be better did not survive the first excuse she found to get rid of them. Once Dalaran was directly involved in the war on the side of the Alliance, the Silver Covenant was unleashed. But it is worth pointing out the Silver Covenant was not unleashed as the Silver Covenant. They were a part of the Kirin Tor Offensive.
    The Pandaria conflict wasn't global, it was centered in Pandaria. Horde/Alliance animosity was indeed global. The naming convention of the Silver Covenant as the Kirin Tor offensive is a distinction without a difference, as Silver Covenant forces are quite clearly marked alongside the Kirin Tor War Mages and guardians. Similarly, the Sunreaver Onslaught forces are bolstered by the Magister and Farstrider forces of Silvermoon with whom they've joined due to the Purge of Dalaran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That seems to be an unnecessarily fine parsing of words. No matter how partisan they are, they are still constrained by Dalaran's neutrality and they cannot act directly against the Horde without imperiling Dalaran's neutrality. If the issue at stake is that the use of the word 'neutrality' implies they don't have Alliance sympathies, I iopen to suggestions for a replacement that conveys their partisan attitudes whilst simultaeneously emphasising that the cannot fight due to the laws of Dalaran. Sympathetic perhaps? At the moment, I believe describing the Silver Covenant as neutral is fair. The Kirin Tor is similarly full of individuals who would clearly like to be more openly pro Alliance, yet they too are constrained by neutrality. Nobody has an issue describing the Kirin Tor as neutral despite the feelings of those individuals, in the same way describing the Silver Covenant as neutral is only technically correct.
    It's a necessary parsing of words, as one cannot be both partisan and neutral simultaneously - the two states are mutually exclusive. The Silver Covenant itself is emphatically not neutral, it's only constrained from hostilities. You could call this functional neutrality if you liked, although that somewhat belies the point you've been trying to make. The takeaway is that the Silver Covenant is an Alliance-affiliated and partisan militia formed to oppose the creation of a similarly Horde-affiliated group in Dalaran. Calling them "neutral" in an attempt to somehow deny or diminish that affiliation would be an error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    If the Silver Covenant were an independent organisation pledged to the Alliance and not bound by the Kirin Tor, they should have been seen during the Fourth War. That they were not seen suggests two possibilities, which are not mutually exclusive.
    Not necessarily. By the time of the Blood War, Dalaran had returned to being a neutral state due to Khadgar's takeover of the Kirin Tor. If the Silver Covenant forces chose not to participate in the fighting that doesn't remove their Alliance affiliation, it just makes them non-actors in the war. Vereesa and Silver Covenant Farstriders were also present at Orgrimmar for Saurfang's Mak'gora and are also participating in the joint task force hunting for the exiled Sylvanas Windrunner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That the Silver Covenant is bound by the neutrality of Dalaran and cannot actively assist the Alliance. And that the Silver Covenant, an organization consisting almost entirely of a political splinter faction whose numbers have been attested to time and time and time again as being extremely low, suffered grievous losses in the period from WOTLK to the end of Legion and can no longer function. After all, the Silver Enclave was turned over to the Worgen in Legion, perhaps the Silver Covenant was no longer large enough to justify exclusive use of those quarters?
    Silver Covenant forces are still present in the Greyfang Enclave of Legion's version of Dalaran. Most of the Silver Covenant's forces appear to be split between the Unseen Path, aiding Vereesa in securing Thas'dorah, and securing Suramar. They later appear in a more noteworthy fashion for the Alliance-version of the Insurrection arc in Suramar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Sunreavers were folded into the Horde military as a result of the purge and do not seem to exist as a distinct group at this time. They were for example absent during the Legion campaign, with only Aethas Sunreaver seeking readmission to Dalaran through the Mage order hall campaign. In contrast, the Silver Covenant pledged itself to the Hunter Order Hall. The Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are no longer mirrored counterparts.
    But they are still distinct groups, with their active affiliations, in both Legion and BfA. Magister Hathorel has not forgotten his place as a Sunreaver during Baine's rescue for the Underhold, and Silver Covenant forces appear in Kul Tiras as well as the Island Expeditions. Both groups have been more or less folded into their parent faction as opposed to their states in WotLK, but they're still discrete entities in and of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This concern did not stop their commitment to the war effort on the Isle of Thunder, nor their fight against the Legion as part of the Kirin Tor forces liberating Suramar or their contribution to the Hunter Order Hall. That they are absent during a faction war when Dalaran was neutral, but present in a faction war when Dalaran was not, again either indicates they are bound by Dalaran neutrality, or they have been so depleted by these campaigns that the Silver Covenant is essentially non functional at this point, or even both.
    The war effort in the Isle of Thunder was largely pitched against a third party hostile force, the Thunder King and his Zandalari backers, not a conflict between the Alliance and Horde. The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant were both present there to combat Lei Shen's forces, not one another outside the occasional skirmish. Lor'themar and Jaina had, by this point, already established a rough detente due to Taran Zhu's influence. Not enough to forestall the occasional bout of infighting (e.g. the PvP objectives) but implicitly assuring the two groups didn't turn wholly on one another.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #13984
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Mage trainer is current and has been there in one form or another since classic. But the gateway to old Dalaran cannot be trusted as there cannot be two Dalarans at once. It has to be assumed it is there for gameplay purposes rather than being an actual reflection of the lore.
    If the Mage Trainer is current despite being there since Classic, then how are the other NPCs there not current either? You're talking about the gateway to Dalaran but then trying to confer it's temporal implication to the NPCs there, that doesn't make sense.

    If the Mage trainer is current, then every NPC there is current.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    If the Silver Covenants exists and did not fight in the war, there has to be a rationale for that, and being constrained by Dalaran's neutrality is the obvious one.
    If those faction tagged mages existed as early as WOTLK, that implies what was found in the datamining is an artifact from WOTLK and that the shield mages on the airship cannot be assumed to have anything to do with the SC.
    The rationale can be as simple as Blizzard chose not to use them to showcase the other Allied Races. That has nothing to do with "if they weren't in the war then they're not in the greater faction of the Alliance". This is an absurd level of thinking which is frankly stupid. To find the answer to that kind of question you'd have to ask then why weren't Ogres helping the Horde as part of the Third War, and why do people consider them to be part of the Horde and ask for them constantly?

    Your rationale and logic doesn't hold up when you apply it to the many other races within the greater factions (Where were the Taunka or the Dragonmaw as another category), and it is also a question that cannot be answered by anyone besides Blizzard.

    By your logic no one should be asking for any of these race examples anymore at all yet they still are. Because a lot of people understand that just because a group or race wasn't present in BfA that doesn't mean they've conferred neutrality on the matters of the Alliance and Horde. That is dumb logic. We are also talking about a videogame here, not the real world. Therefore the rules of engagement of what happens in the real world doesn't apply to the instances of Azeroth.

    I shouldn't have to explain that a videogame doesn't follow real world rules, but here we are. Now, do the developers try to emulate what happens as seemingly close to reality? Sure, but that's not the foundation for what WoW is. It's not an IRL simulator, it's a videogame of fantasy universe/races/rules with "gameplay first" as the developer's motto. That can give someone an idea of how Blizzard lands on some decisions they make, as my earlier statement of they probably wanted to showcase the Allied Races and thus didn't focus on the other races of the Alliance or Horde (High Elves, Jinyu, Frostborn, Hozen, Dragonmaw, Taunka).

    Also, who are you to judge if something is an artifact or not? Here you go again overstepping your bounds as just a regular player and trying to instill some form of authority.

    Let's make it clear: You do not work for Blizzard, you are not privy to Blizzard's decisions/intentions/plans. You therefore, cannot speak as if you know the reasoning/explanation behind the choices they make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    If they were a part of the Alliance, why did they not fight in the war? Why have they only ever fought when Dalaran is around?
    Look to my response above. Besides, Silver Covenant Mages did serve in the 7th Legion Arathi Warfront so there were SC High Elves represented in the Fourth War. This is an instance where Dalaran hasn't been around.

    I would also indicate the Purge and the following stand-off at Throne of Thunder to not be in official Dalaran capacity either. As quickly afterwards Jaina was relinquished from her status as the Council of Six (the head and leading organization of Dalaran) demoted her for the actions of the Purge and Throne of Thunder.

    Showing that what was done was in an individual group's prerogative the same way that Dalaran isn't going after the Horde/don't consider the Horde their enemies as the actions of a few Sunreavers were based on that specific group's participation and not the Horde as a whole.

    You could even consider the Purge situation as a one similar to Garithos where the greater portion of the Alliance didn't know what his plans involved, and if in the case of Garithos would've acted the way Dalaran did for Jaina during the Purge.

    The way you can see the consequences of Garithos acting on his own within the Alliance is that there are still High Elves in the Alliance who are not treated as slaves/jailed/quartered away unlike how Garithos was handling the situation where he was. That's enough proof the greater Alliance members didn't agree with his actions.

    The High Elves existing within the Alliance and still fighting for the faction also show what occurred with Garithos was an isolated incident that is not representative of greater Alliance faction the same way what occurred in the Purge and ToT was not representative of the greater Dalaran organization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Isn't the same people agreeing with you (who almost all seem to be pro High Elfers) and you using that as some sort of proof a textbook case of confirmation bias?
    Well there I was referring to Aucald and Doffen who, from my pov, don't appear pro- high elf and are probably the closest towards neutral. What I define as neutral is people who don't care either way (aka they are not heavily for/against) how Blizzard decides on High Elves and argue based on empirical truth (aka what we as players can garner on the topic based on evidence from the game/game-related media and developer authority).
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2019-12-13 at 01:57 PM.

  5. #13985
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No but if they hadn't been a colony back then people might be wondering where everyone in the US initially came from. Just because it is old does not mean it didn't happen.
    Which is, again, irrelevant. Because I'm not going to base my decisions regarding the US based on the idea they're still a colony of Britan. Likewise, it doesn't matter that high elves were mistrusted ten+ years ago, because, today, things are shown to be different.

    We have been over this. There is the general standard of differentiation, where changing skin tone, theme and aesthetic is sufficient in the eyes of the developers, and there is the Ielenia standard of differentiation, where sharing a silhouette means the developers are wrong. I have no desire to relitigate this entirely pointless argument with you because I do not wish to yet again go into detail on the differences between similar and identical.
    No, there is no "standard" because Blizzard never said what their "standards" are. But I'm flattered you call the basic standard as "mine" since 'differing silhouettes' are the basic standard for character design.

    The evidence is mentioned in the still canon encyclopedia.
    Which is woefully outdated and speak of events no longer relevant or true in the current lore. For example, look at this small excerpt from the Warcraft Encyclopedia regarding a certain Illidan Stormrage: "As a demon, he is fundamentally evil and often cruel" But we do know he was never evil, don't we?

    Oh, and since you like the Warcraft Encyclopedia so much: "The blood elves no longer consider themselves high elves, and they have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred."

    When I talk about evolution of lore, I connect point A to point B and to point C. When you talk about evolution of lore, you arrive at point C and declare points A and B no longer matter, were never visited and likely never existed in the first place.
    Yeah, false. Again, this is just you willingly misinterpreting what I write. What you are doing is implying that 'point A' and 'point B' are still the norm even when we're at 'point C'.

    Yes, they happened because there was a need for new content. What is ridiculous is the idea that they will go to the trouble of doing this just to give you white skinned elves. If they had wanted to do that, they wouldn't have created Void Elves.
    Blizzard did said "ridiculous thing" just because people wanted to play as brown-skinned orcs. So, again, the precedent is there.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  6. #13986
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    There is: Not being Blood elves and not being Horde.
    Weak argument, given they're the same race as an already playable race available to the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    You then mention orc clans in next breath, have you forgotten about the unification of the orc clans of Draenor? What do you think the Mag'har playable option is?
    Orc culture makes sense to have clans unite (even though we know some clans never united). High elves doesn't, especially since you have the highvale elves who are very much isolationists and elves from Allerian stronghold who state that outland is their new home and they have no intention of returning to Azeroth. The orc clans were more united in goal than any of the splintered high elf groups (who are also extremely small in population).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    It was Ion Hazzikostas, who was dissed pretty hard and has been demonstrated to have handled the matter very poorly. Fine if you want to side with him, but it's gonna be treated as what he said, as a poorly grasp on the matter.
    Yea, I'm going to side with the lead game developer over upset high elfers on this one. Also, if high elfers are going to "diss" Ion for certain comments he makes, then they have no right to use any other comments he has made in support of their argument... it's hypocritical and comes off as bad taste.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    You literally repeated that Blood elves and High elves are the same a hundred times. Please decide.
    Blood elves and high elves are the exact same race, a fact I've reiterated on several occasions to those who seem to think they're a different race just because of a pronoun difference in their name.

    That being said I have acknowledged there is a political difference, though I have also acknowledged that that isn't enough to differentiate them. The alliance high elf exiles have no reason to join the blood elves though, just as the highvale elves have no reason to "unite" with the SC. This doesn't change the fact of the fundamental issue of this debate, that blood elves are high elves and are already playable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    And?

    Literally. And?
    I'll take this response that you have no legitimate counter argument here and are simply arguing for argument sake. If you have no real argument then either accept you don't or just don't respond to a particular topic of the debate... else it comes across as you "reaching" and it's kinda sad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Because everyone knows that the lore of Warcraft is (sadly) this seriously treated. Please.

    Also, they aren't playable, if they were playable they would have been seen. But yeah, expect for the wow team to add anything else than the locals of the new zones and 6-8 allied races plus classical races. Your argument is based in something that world of warcraft is not.
    Again, weak argument. Lot's of "IF'S" in your response. IF this, IF that. Yea that's not a counter argument, that's you again "reaching" for the sake of argument. FACT of the matter is the SC were nowhere to be found in this war. This means either A) they are poor allies to have and don't care about the Alliance that much, B) they're first and foremost loyal to the Kirin Tor and as such respected the Kirin Tor's position of neutrality, or C) they're so few in number (which fits the lore) that the 2 we see on the ship is a representation of their presence in game... and as such would be less populace than the void elves who had a FAR greater presence in this war than the high elf exiles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Couldn't the same be said about the Vindicaar? Why is the Vindicaar absent if it's a military spaceship with a powerful laser? Isn't it something the lightforge draenei have? It hasn't been destroyed. It's still very much intact and operational. Or Jaina's flying ship with arcane cannons? Why haven't that been used more? Showed up once in the Lordaeron scenario, then never again.
    The Vindicaar wasn't used, correct. But the Draenei were certainly present in the war. On the other hand, the SC as a militia group were completely absent from the war. This is an extremely strong indication that they're loyalties lie with the Kirin Tor
    Last edited by Strippling; 2019-12-14 at 10:01 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  7. #13987
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The Vindicaar wasn't used, correct. But the Draenei were certainly present in the war. On the other hand, the SC as a militia group were completely absent from the war. This is an extremely strong indication that they're loyalties lie with the Kirin Tor
    Not really. Unless we're putting into question the loyalty of the lightforged draenei, if they refuse to use their most powerful weapon to help win a war in which so many soldiers died that the Alliance was recruiting farmers.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  8. #13988
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    God forbid @Obelisk Kai ever admit he is flat out unable to understand what pro-HE wants, when he is the one always bringing the appearance of the BE and HE on the table. Because even if some VE were former HE beyond Alleria, and I don't see any proof of that ingame, despite your insinuations and ways to twist tweets and events in game to fit your purpose, that wouldn't make the Void Elves the kind of elves I truly want to play. My main is one for the moment because I fell in love with the Hunter class and didn't want to spend 25€ changing the race when I truly realized that I'd switch main at level 90.

    But High Elves, playable high Elves, can't have chosen to become Void Elves, precisely because it runs contrary to their values and beliefs. They'd die before they'd submit to such dangerous energies.
    did you make the questline of Xal'atath? The new body of the dagger is a high elf cultist.

  9. #13989
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    did you make the questline of Xal'atath? The new body of the dagger is a high elf cultist.
    Inanis and her Deep Watcher followers are cultists of the Old God N'Zoth, and not independent Void cultists (as shown by her followers speaking Shath'yar upon death). They're not really related to the Void Elves in any way, just as the Twilight's Hammer is not related to the Void Elves.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #13990
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Inanis and her Deep Watcher followers are cultists of the Old God N'Zoth, and not independent Void cultists (as shown by her followers speaking Shath'yar upon death). They're not really related to the Void Elves in any way, just as the Twilight's Hammer is not related to the Void Elves.
    I see many void elves serving Nzoth in karazhan

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sleepless_Voidseeker

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    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    I see many void elves serving Nzoth in karazhan

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sleepless_Voidseeker
    Some likely are - either victims of the whispers, or simply maddened through the atrocities of war. But Inanis and her cultists are not.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #13992
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not really. Unless we're putting into question the loyalty of the lightforged draenei, if they refuse to use their most powerful weapon to help win a war in which so many soldiers died that the Alliance was recruiting farmers.
    Again, LF Draenei were very much present in this faction war. And the Vindicaar was used in the faction war... not just in the way "you believe" it should have been used. The Vindicaar was used as a base of operations to train new recruits who subsequently assist in the faction war.

    The LF Draenei assist the Alliance during the faction war on several occasions, such as during the assault of Drustvar in defending the region from the Horde and in the battle for Dazar'alor.

    From a quick count, there is a significantly higher number of LF Draenei than high elf exiles participating in this faction war.. yet aren't high elves apparently meant to be a "core alliance race"? The answer... no, they are not.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

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    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    True, but again, being constrained by their host doesn't automatically confer the host's neutral status onto them - they're both inwardly and outwardly partisan. This is directly shown in WotLK by the Silver Covenant and Sunreaver camps outside of Dalaran (in Crystalsong Forest), who are directly opposed to one another beyond the aegis of Dalaran's neutrality. The same is true for the Argent Tournament grounds, where they directly oppose one another in Fordring's tournament, acting as partisan groups affiliated with their chosen faction.
    Yet that they are partisan does not change the fact they are constrained by the neutrality of their hosts. Which actually goes to the fundamental question that sparked this, are the high elven exiles an important part of the Alliance? Given they are constrained by the neutrality of Dalaran and can only surreptitiously when they feel they can get away it, the answer is no. Given that they have no made the choice to leave Dalaran to side with the Alliance either, this indicates that they prize their new home above their sympathies to the Alliance. Therefore they cannot be considered a part of the Alliance, given they have chosen their neutral home over their partisan attitudes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Pandaria conflict wasn't global, it was centered in Pandaria. Horde/Alliance animosity was indeed global. The naming convention of the Silver Covenant as the Kirin Tor offensive is a distinction without a difference, as Silver Covenant forces are quite clearly marked alongside the Kirin Tor War Mages and guardians. Similarly, the Sunreaver Onslaught forces are bolstered by the Magister and Farstrider forces of Silvermoon with whom they've joined due to the Purge of Dalaran.
    It was fairly global with plenty of action in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. The discovery of Pandaria and the destruction of Theramore what was ignited the main conflagration however. As for the naming convetions, the Silver Covenant may have been a distinct part of the Kirin Tor Offensive, but it was still a part of the Kirin Tor Offensive. Almost always when the Silver Covenant fights, Dalaran is involved somewhere. Even the liberation of Suramar saw them participate alongside Kirin Tor forces with whom they are mixed at the staging area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's a necessary parsing of words, as one cannot be both partisan and neutral simultaneously - the two states are mutually exclusive. The Silver Covenant itself is emphatically not neutral, it's only constrained from hostilities. You could call this functional neutrality if you liked, although that somewhat belies the point you've been trying to make. The takeaway is that the Silver Covenant is an Alliance-affiliated and partisan militia formed to oppose the creation of a similarly Horde-affiliated group in Dalaran. Calling them "neutral" in an attempt to somehow deny or diminish that affiliation would be an error.
    Actually one can be partisan and neutral. You may in your heart of hearts feel that one side of a dispute is absolutely correct and yearn to assist that side, but the higher calling of your job or your role means you must assume absolute neutrality. This happens all the time in real life in multiple roles, for example the position of the speaker in the British Parliamentary system. They are chosen from the members of the British Parliament, but upon becoming speaker they must abandon all formal loyalty and ties to the party they had belonged to and operate as scrupulously neutral. At the moment, the speaker of that Parliament is a former MP of the left wing Labour party. His political beliefs would almost certainly be deeply partisan. But his higher calling means he must now suppress those feelings in favour of neutral.

    In a similar fashion, the Silver Covenant are clearly partisan. But they have made the choice to live in Dalaran and abide by it's rules. As Khadgar expressed, he did not want to take sides in the brewing faction war and Dalaran was not involved in the fourth war. There were no Kirin Tor forces fighting for the Alliance, and no Silver Covenant. Neutrality may chafe the Silver Covenant, and any who wished to fight for the Alliance was almost certainly allowed to do so as long as they departed Dalaran, but the absence of the organisation and it's members from the battlefield indicates that most abided by the neutrality of Dalaran.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not necessarily. By the time of the Blood War, Dalaran had returned to being a neutral state due to Khadgar's takeover of the Kirin Tor. If the Silver Covenant forces chose not to participate in the fighting that doesn't remove their Alliance affiliation, it just makes them non-actors in the war. Vereesa and Silver Covenant Farstriders were also present at Orgrimmar for Saurfang's Mak'gora and are also participating in the joint task force hunting for the exiled Sylvanas Windrunner.
    No Silver Covenant farstrider was present at the Battle of the gates of Orgrimmar. I know, I looked on multiple characters once ballista-gate occurred. The only high elf present on the battlefield was Lor'themar Theron, Alleria and Veressa having gone elsewhere earlier. Veressa was there because of her personal connection to Sylvanas, which is the same reason Alleria was there.

    As for being a non-actor in the war, the story concluded that the Alliance was taking grievous losses against the Horde (the lost honor cinematic, and the confirmation that the Alliance had only enough resources for one final assault against Orgrimmar in 8.2.5). No part of the Alliance could sit on the sidelines amidst such sacrifice and still call itself a part of the Alliance. The absence of the Silver Covenant, when even the few forces they could offer would be badly needed, implies they were never expected to join because they weren't a true part of the Alliance. They are and remain a partisan militia based in Dalaran but constrained by the neutrality of that city.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Silver Covenant forces are still present in the Greyfang Enclave of Legion's version of Dalaran. Most of the Silver Covenant's forces appear to be split between the Unseen Path, aiding Vereesa in securing Thas'dorah, and securing Suramar. They later appear in a more noteworthy fashion for the Alliance-version of the Insurrection arc in Suramar.
    Far less Silver Covenant remain in the Enclave however although we know some Silver Covenant still dwell there, both from the game and the fact that Veressa still lives there as of the three sister's comic. And as your point out, the Enclave has been renamed to the Greyfang Enclave. The High Elven exiles were confirmed to have extremely low numbers as of the end of classic in 2005 and that fact has been reiterated several times across the years now. The High Elven exiles have also participated in several military campaigns, against the Lich King, against Horde civilians, against the Thunder King and Horde warriors and against the Legion. Are people really going to suggest that a group persistently defined as having an incredibly low population took no casualties in these bloody conflicts. Even a few dead exiles would have an enormous impact on their viability.
    Perhaps the real reason they cannot participate is that there are even less of them around now? But that still wouldn't invalidate that they would be bound by the neutrality of their home city.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    But they are still distinct groups, with their active affiliations, in both Legion and BfA. Magister Hathorel has not forgotten his place as a Sunreaver during Baine's rescue for the Underhold, and Silver Covenant forces appear in Kul Tiras as well as the Island Expeditions. Both groups have been more or less folded into their parent faction as opposed to their states in WotLK, but they're still discrete entities in and of themselves.
    Magister Hathorel hasn't forgotten the Sunreavers, but in no way does this mean they still exist in the same fashion they used to. The Sunreavers are now an indisputable part of the Horde and as such are not comparable to the Silver Covenant, which is still a milita based in Dalaran. No Silver Covenant forces appeared in Kul Tiras or the Island Expeditions. Those appear to be some of the incredibly miniscule number of high elven exiles who do not dwell in Dalaran and are openly supportive of the Alliance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The war effort in the Isle of Thunder was largely pitched against a third party hostile force, the Thunder King and his Zandalari backers, not a conflict between the Alliance and Horde. The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant were both present there to combat Lei Shen's forces, not one another outside the occasional skirmish. Lor'themar and Jaina had, by this point, already established a rough detente due to Taran Zhu's influence. Not enough to forestall the occasional bout of infighting (e.g. the PvP objectives) but implicitly assuring the two groups didn't turn wholly on one another.
    Both factions were there to fight the Thunder King, but there was a also a war going on and daily quests each which targeted the enemy faction. It was a three way conflict in other words.The detente between Lor'themar and Jaina only came towards the conclusion of the campaign, just before the Throne of Thunder was breached.

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    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Again, LF Draenei were very much present in this faction war. And the Vindicaar was used in the faction war... not just in the way "you believe" it should have been used.
    Ah, yes. Let's use this military spaceship equipped with a powerful weapon that can do surgically precise powerful laser attacks which could be used to save hundreds, if not thousands of soldier lives... just to train soldiers to throw into the war grind machine. It'll be fiiiiiiine. (/s)

    The Vindicaar was used as a base of operations to train new recruits who subsequently assist in the faction war.
    When? The only time you ever see the Vindicaar as a lightforged draenei is when you create your character, and then at 110 when you earn your heritage armor. If you didn't use a level boost, of course. You never see it as any other race, and you never see it used anywhere at all in BfA content.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  15. #13995
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yet that they are partisan does not change the fact they are constrained by the neutrality of their hosts. Which actually goes to the fundamental question that sparked this, are the high elven exiles an important part of the Alliance? Given they are constrained by the neutrality of Dalaran and can only surreptitiously when they feel they can get away it, the answer is no. Given that they have no made the choice to leave Dalaran to side with the Alliance either, this indicates that they prize their new home above their sympathies to the Alliance. Therefore they cannot be considered a part of the Alliance, given they have chosen their neutral home over their partisan attitudes.
    Not all the High Elven exiles are part of the Silver Covenant, but almost all of them declare Alliance loyalty and/or sympathy. This is evinced both in gameplay via faction tagging and in the lore itself. The Sanctuary system is all that stays their hands, proven direct during the Purge when they come hostile and kill or are killed by Horde partisans in turn. Both lore and the game systems belie your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It was fairly global with plenty of action in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. The discovery of Pandaria and the destruction of Theramore what was ignited the main conflagration however. As for the naming convetions, the Silver Covenant may have been a distinct part of the Kirin Tor Offensive, but it was still a part of the Kirin Tor Offensive. Almost always when the Silver Covenant fights, Dalaran is involved somewhere. Even the liberation of Suramar saw them participate alongside Kirin Tor forces with whom they are mixed at the staging area.
    Actually the Kirin Tor forces at Suramar were largely there to keep the peace between the Night Elves and the Blood Elves, with the Silver Covenant present alongside the Kaldorei, not the Kirin Tor of Dalaran. Similarly, the Silver Covenant was also acting alone in the hunt for Alleria's fabled bow. The Pandaria conflict was named for Pandaria, the landmass recently (re)discovered and being fought over as a major resource hub. There were other theaters of the conflict, sure; but Pandaria swiftly became the main one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actually one can be partisan and neutral. You may in your heart of hearts feel that one side of a dispute is absolutely correct and yearn to assist that side, but the higher calling of your job or your role means you must assume absolute neutrality. This happens all the time in real life in multiple roles, for example the position of the speaker in the British Parliamentary system. They are chosen from the members of the British Parliament, but upon becoming speaker they must abandon all formal loyalty and ties to the party they had belonged to and operate as scrupulously neutral. At the moment, the speaker of that Parliament is a former MP of the left wing Labour party. His political beliefs would almost certainly be deeply partisan. But his higher calling means he must now suppress those feelings in favour of neutral.
    If you feel "in your heart of hearts feel that one side of a dispute is absolutely correct and yearn to assist that side" then you aren't neutral, period. You can attempt to play at neutrality, sure, but that doesn't make you neutral, either. Someone who holds beliefs that would profoundly bias themselves are ethically compelled to recuse themselves in such a position, this is the same reason potential jurors are directly asked: "is there any reason you think you could not be a fair or impartial juror on a case involving these issues?" Holding strongly partisan positions is an ethical and empirical bias - in such cases you cannot be fundamentally neutral and/or impartial. Similarly, someone who holds such beliefs should not accept the position of Speaker in a parliamentary system (though, of course, few people would recuse themselves so for reasons of political corruption).

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    In a similar fashion, the Silver Covenant are clearly partisan. But they have made the choice to live in Dalaran and abide by it's rules. As Khadgar expressed, he did not want to take sides in the brewing faction war and Dalaran was not involved in the fourth war. There were no Kirin Tor forces fighting for the Alliance, and no Silver Covenant. Neutrality may chafe the Silver Covenant, and any who wished to fight for the Alliance was almost certainly allowed to do so as long as they departed Dalaran, but the absence of the organisation and it's members from the battlefield indicates that most abided by the neutrality of Dalaran.
    Again, following the dictum of your governing body doesn't confer neutrality upon such groups reflexively. If they remain deeply partisan, then they remain non-neutral. They may obey the law as set down, but they'll always find a way to voice or enact their biases where allowed. That is both essentially and objectively not neutral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No Silver Covenant farstrider was present at the Battle of the gates of Orgrimmar. I know, I looked on multiple characters once ballista-gate occurred. The only high elf present on the battlefield was Lor'themar Theron, Alleria and Veressa having gone elsewhere earlier. Veressa was there because of her personal connection to Sylvanas, which is the same reason Alleria was there.
    Vereesa is herself a Silver Covenant Farstrider, and while she was the only one visible in-game she wasn't there alone in terms of lore, as directly after the conflict it was said she and her other Farstriders were working with the Farstriders of Silvermoon to locate Sylvanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As for being a non-actor in the war, the story concluded that the Alliance was taking grievous losses against the Horde (the lost honor cinematic, and the confirmation that the Alliance had only enough resources for one final assault against Orgrimmar in 8.2.5). No part of the Alliance could sit on the sidelines amidst such sacrifice and still call itself a part of the Alliance. The absence of the Silver Covenant, when even the few forces they could offer would be badly needed, implies they were never expected to join because they weren't a true part of the Alliance. They are and remain a partisan militia based in Dalaran but constrained by the neutrality of that city.
    High Elven forces are serving the Alliance during the Blood War, so your distinction is again somewhat moot. We don't know if they are or were Silver Covenant, but they're certainly High Elven exiles definitely serving the Alliance. The Silver Covenant may have been involved elsewhere, as well; we don't really know. Just because a given a group or subfaction is out of focus as concerns in-game events doesn't necessarily mean it's not doing anything noteworthy. Especially as we know the Silver Covenant Farstriders are involved in the hunt for Sylvanas afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Far less Silver Covenant remain in the Enclave however although we know some Silver Covenant still dwell there, both from the game and the fact that Veressa still lives there as of the three sister's comic. And as your point out, the Enclave has been renamed to the Greyfang Enclave. The High Elven exiles were confirmed to have extremely low numbers as of the end of classic in 2005 and that fact has been reiterated several times across the years now. The High Elven exiles have also participated in several military campaigns, against the Lich King, against Horde civilians, against the Thunder King and Horde warriors and against the Legion. Are people really going to suggest that a group persistently defined as having an incredibly low population took no casualties in these bloody conflicts. Even a few dead exiles would have an enormous impact on their viability. Perhaps the real reason they cannot participate is that there are even less of them around now? But that still wouldn't invalidate that they would be bound by the neutrality of their home city.
    Perhaps, perhaps not - we don't know enough to say for sure. After the Purge of Dalaran the Silver Covenant may have left Dalaran for understandable reasons, except for a handful of stragglers. They may have returned to places like Highvale, or the Trueshot Lodge, or any of the other handful of High Elven exile population centers. They're still plentiful enough to have a very obvious profile in-game, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Magister Hathorel hasn't forgotten the Sunreavers, but in no way does this mean they still exist in the same fashion they used to. The Sunreavers are now an indisputable part of the Horde and as such are not comparable to the Silver Covenant, which is still a milita based in Dalaran. No Silver Covenant forces appeared in Kul Tiras or the Island Expeditions. Those appear to be some of the incredibly miniscule number of high elven exiles who do not dwell in Dalaran and are openly supportive of the Alliance.
    Your previous paragraph stands contrary to this one, as you've noted the Silver Covenant seem to have left Dalaran (e.g. they no longer have a named enclave in the city). It is more likely the High Elven exiles of the Silver Covenant have been folded into the greater Alliance war-machine - probably serving as advance scouts and in specialty or logistical roles. Given their scarcity they'd probably not opt for hard combat roles most of the time, but since we do see some of them in that capacity (such as in the Island Expeditions) we know they're present as Alliance partisans.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Actually the Kirin Tor forces at Suramar were largely there to keep the peace between the Night Elves and the Blood Elves, with the Silver Covenant present alongside the Kaldorei, not the Kirin Tor of Dalaran. Similarly, the Silver Covenant was also acting alone in the hunt for Alleria's fabled bow. The Pandaria conflict was named for Pandaria, the landmass recently (re)discovered and being fought over as a major resource hub. There were other theaters of the conflict, sure; but Pandaria swiftly became the main one.

    Again, following the dictum of your governing body doesn't confer neutrality upon such groups reflexively. If they remain deeply partisan, then they remain non-neutral. They may obey the law as set down, but they'll always find a way to voice or enact their biases where allowed. That is both essentially and objectively not neutral.
    Yup and here is a snippet during Insurrection that supports this

    "Vereesa, along with Tyrande Whisperwind and her sentinels, leads a group of Silver Covenant war mages to Suramar to support the Nightfallen rebels in their attempt to reclaim Suramar from its Burning Legion-aligned masters. Still vengeful for the death of her husband, and now her king, she counselled against trusting the nearby Horde forces led by Lady Liadrin and Grand Magister Rommath, but a formal, if tense, truce was made between the two armies regardless. Kirin Tor guards comment that Khadgar has had to step in and stop Vereesa from shooting at Rommath more than once, and Liadrin does not trust Vereesa to protect their flank when the time comes to attack the city."

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vereesa_Windrunner

    First bold showing she and her SC were acting with the Alliance members and NOT the Kirin Tor.

    Second bold supports your commentary on being there more for peacekeeping, unlike those who say they command the SC. Khadgar having to step in multiple times shows he doesn't have the authority over the Silver Covenant to just remove Vereesa from the area. Second bold also shows that Khadgar having to step in means the Kirin Tor guards themselves had even less authority as well.

    Because she isn't there under the Kirin Tor, she's there as her own governing body and helping the Sentinels of the Alliance, while at the same time showing her (and by virtue the SC d/t being the head of the organization) non-neutrality towards the Horde.

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    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not all the High Elven exiles are part of the Silver Covenant, but almost all of them declare Alliance loyalty and/or sympathy. This is evinced both in gameplay via faction tagging and in the lore itself. The Sanctuary system is all that stays their hands, proven direct during the Purge when they come hostile and kill or are killed by Horde partisans in turn. Both lore and the game systems belie your position.
    Which I don't believe argues the point. You are relying on a gameplay system that for convenience tags them as Alliance to show their alignment to the Alliance and hostility towards the Horde when that isn't the argument. Their emotional position is accepted. The argument is that the Silver Covenant as an organisation, because of the Kirin Tor, is de facto neutral and cannot openly act against the Horde. If they were a true, active part of the Alliance, then why aren't they seen without Dalaran and where were they during the Fourth War?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Actually the Kirin Tor forces at Suramar were largely there to keep the peace between the Night Elves and the Blood Elves, with the Silver Covenant present alongside the Kaldorei, not the Kirin Tor of Dalaran. Similarly, the Silver Covenant was also acting alone in the hunt for Alleria's fabled bow. The Pandaria conflict was named for Pandaria, the landmass recently (re)discovered and being fought over as a major resource hub. There were other theaters of the conflict, sure; but Pandaria swiftly became the main one.
    Pandaria became the main conflict, but Gilenas, Ashenvale and Stonetalon fell at the start of the Cataclsym and Theramore was destroyed before Pandaria was found. The landmass was discovered as a consequence of a Horde attack upon an Alliance fleet, which drove them towards the continent. The war was already well underway at this point, the Pandaria conflict name refers to the most violent, destructive and decisive period of it.
    As for thas'dorah, that was initiated by the Unseen Path. You were assisted by Veressa Windrunner. Veressa Windrunner is not shorthand for the Silver Covenant if the reason she is there is because it has to do with one of her sisters, as almost all her interactions have been recently. Her reason for being there in the thas'dorah questline were to see if she could find Alleria.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If you feel "in your heart of hearts feel that one side of a dispute is absolutely correct and yearn to assist that side" then you aren't neutral, period. You can attempt to play at neutrality, sure, but that doesn't make you neutral, either. Someone who holds beliefs that would profoundly bias themselves are ethically compelled to recuse themselves in such a position, this is the same reason potential jurors are directly asked: "is there any reason you think you could not be a fair or impartial juror on a case involving these issues?" Holding strongly partisan positions is an ethical and empirical bias - in such cases you cannot be fundamentally neutral and/or impartial. Similarly, someone who holds such beliefs should not accept the position of Speaker in a parliamentary system (though, of course, few people would recuse themselves so for reasons of political corruption).
    Your final point in this paragraph is the one I shall address first, as it seems to be the root of your misunderstanding here. The Speaker of the UK Parliament is elected from the sitting MPs. The sitting MPs were themselves elected in a first past the post electoral system on behalf of a political party. To even stand for election to the parliament, every member has therefore backed the position of their political party, argues for that position in debates and votes for that position once the debate concludes. Every single member therefore has a clearly expressed record of their thoughts and policy preferences. Yet the speakership only works if the person who holds the chair is perceived by all to be neutral. Those elected to the chair of the speaker must make the professional choice to set aside their partisan instincts and assume a neutral position. Using the current speaker as an example, everyone knows he is a Labour party member to his bones (left wing) yet he must set that aside to function as a neutral referee. Almost every person to hold the chair can be said to have successfully done the same.

    The members of the Silver Covenant hate the Horde and wish to aid the Alliance. This is a fact. It is also a fact that in the recent, bloody war they did not do either. Either losses over the years have finally rendered them non-functional, or the neutrality of Dalaran (the city in which they now lived) compelled them to stay their hand, or a combination of both. It is more than possible to be partisan, yet circumstances enforce a de facto neutrality upon you. They may not aspire to neutrality as the speaker does, but neutrality is compelled upon them to safeguard Dalaran. After all, should a partisan militia begin attacking the Horde and then retreating to 'neutral' Dalaran after striking out, the Horde would rapidly conclude that Dalaran neutrality is a contradiction and render the city a target of attack.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Again, following the dictum of your governing body doesn't confer neutrality upon such groups reflexively. If they remain deeply partisan, then they remain non-neutral. They may obey the law as set down, but they'll always find a way to voice or enact their biases where allowed. That is both essentially and objectively not neutral.
    This seems to be devolving into a debate over how exactly their situation is described. Individual exiles are partisan. Their organisation has had neutrality compelled upon it by the Kirin Tor.





    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Vereesa is herself a Silver Covenant Farstrider, and while she was the only one visible in-game she wasn't there alone in terms of lore, as directly after the conflict it was said she and her other Farstriders were working with the Farstriders of Silvermoon to locate Sylvanas.
    The Silver Covenant uses the term Rangers rather than Farstriders. And what you are describing did not happen. Veressa never said a word, seemingly present only because of her connection to Sylvanas (her new role in the story is the windrunner family conflict). Instead, Lor'themar was taking with Shandris Feathermoon, with Lor'themar saying the Farstriders will hunt Sylvanas and Shandris Feathermoon saying the sentinels are also looking.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    High Elven forces are serving the Alliance during the Blood War, so your distinction is again somewhat moot. We don't know if they are or were Silver Covenant, but they're certainly High Elven exiles definitely serving the Alliance. The Silver Covenant may have been involved elsewhere, as well; we don't really know. Just because a given a group or subfaction is out of focus as concerns in-game events doesn't necessarily mean it's not doing anything noteworthy. Especially as we know the Silver Covenant Farstriders are involved in the hunt for Sylvanas afterward.
    No High Elven force served the Alliance during the Fourth War. Individual High Elven exiles did, but to describe them as High Elven forces implies armies and attack squads of high elves. We have evidence for three high elven exiles who participated in the fourth war. Two of whom were shield mages who sat on the airship and didn't get their hands dirty. Frostfencer Seraphi is the only high elven exile to actively participate in the fourth war. The comment regarding the Silver Covenant being elsewhere is a little undercut given you confused the Silver Covenant rangers with Shandris Feathermoon's Night Elven sentinels.
    Nor was the Silver Covenant mentioned in any of the mission table missions, the missions we have used to flesh out what did happen elsewhere during the war.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Perhaps, perhaps not - we don't know enough to say for sure. After the Purge of Dalaran the Silver Covenant may have left Dalaran for understandable reasons, except for a handful of stragglers. They may have returned to places like Highvale, or the Trueshot Lodge, or any of the other handful of High Elven exile population centers. They're still plentiful enough to have a very obvious profile in-game, however.
    The three sisters comic shows Veressa, commander of the Silver Covenant, still dwells in the Greyfang Enclave.
    Their profile in game has substantially diminished as well with the faction being barely used in Legion and not at all in BFA. Narratively, the Alliance now has a faction of thalassian elves of their very own. The Silver Covenant is rendered redundant as a foil for the Blood Elves as a result.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Your previous paragraph stands contrary to this one, as you've noted the Silver Covenant seem to have left Dalaran (e.g. they no longer have a named enclave in the city). It is more likely the High Elven exiles of the Silver Covenant have been folded into the greater Alliance war-machine - probably serving as advance scouts and in specialty or logistical roles. Given their scarcity they'd probably not opt for hard combat roles most of the time, but since we do see some of them in that capacity (such as in the Island Expeditions) we know they're present as Alliance partisans.
    There is no evidence for this, and as three sisters proved, the Silver Covenant still seems to dwell in Greyfang Enclave. Assuming they all went elsewhere except for the leadership, when there is no evidence for that and such a move seems counter-intuitive for a militia, seems to be an attempt to dodge that the obvious conclusion is that there are less of them due to the numerous conflicts they have fought in but they still live in Dalaran.

  18. #13998
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Which I don't believe argues the point. You are relying on a gameplay system that for convenience tags them as Alliance to show their alignment to the Alliance and hostility towards the Horde when that isn't the argument. Their emotional position is accepted. The argument is that the Silver Covenant as an organisation, because of the Kirin Tor, is de facto neutral and cannot openly act against the Horde. If they were a true, active part of the Alliance, then why aren't they seen without Dalaran and where were they during the Fourth War?
    My argument is that de facto neutrality isn't actual neutrality - not objectively, intrinsically, essentially, or factually. The fact that they're not seen in the Fourth War is immaterial to this, and absence of evidence in this context is not evidence of absence. They're not present because they not present, either because they're busy elsewhere or didn't consider it a cause worth endangering their already meager population for. Doesn't change the equation, and it's also not uncommon for WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Pandaria became the main conflict, but Gilenas, Ashenvale and Stonetalon fell at the start of the Cataclsym and Theramore was destroyed before Pandaria was found. The landmass was discovered as a consequence of a Horde attack upon an Alliance fleet, which drove them towards the continent. The war was already well underway at this point, the Pandaria conflict name refers to the most violent, destructive and decisive period of it.
    Also for the conflict in and around the Pandaria continent. You're conflating the war with a specific theater of the war in discussion. Just as the Battle of Midway was not the entirety of WW2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As for thas'dorah, that was initiated by the Unseen Path. You were assisted by Veressa Windrunner. Veressa Windrunner is not shorthand for the Silver Covenant if the reason she is there is because it has to do with one of her sisters, as almost all her interactions have been recently. Her reason for being there in the thas'dorah questline were to see if she could find Alleria.
    Actually, no. The quest Rendezvous with the Courier, acquired at Trueshot Lodge, informs the Hunter PC that Vereesa and the Silver Covenant Farstriders have actually gone on ahead of the Unseen Path, and are found at the Broken Shore in the very next quest: Call of the Marksman. Magus Solgaze (tagged as Silver Covenant) is also present there, and a number of unnamed Silver Covenant Farstriders are present on Niksara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Your final point in this paragraph is the one I shall address first, as it seems to be the root of your misunderstanding here. The Speaker of the UK Parliament is elected from the sitting MPs. The sitting MPs were themselves elected in a first past the post electoral system on behalf of a political party. To even stand for election to the parliament, every member has therefore backed the position of their political party, argues for that position in debates and votes for that position once the debate concludes. Every single member therefore has a clearly expressed record of their thoughts and policy preferences. Yet the speakership only works if the person who holds the chair is perceived by all to be neutral. Those elected to the chair of the speaker must make the professional choice to set aside their partisan instincts and assume a neutral position. Using the current speaker as an example, everyone knows he is a Labour party member to his bones (left wing) yet he must set that aside to function as a neutral referee. Almost every person to hold the chair can be said to have successfully done the same.
    And the person who takes that position must be able to set aside said bias to assume the mantle, if they cannot, then ethically they should recuse themselves from it. Bias is a matter of scale, and it can be set aside in some cases - and other cases, not so much. I am not saying all bias makes neutrality impossible, but profound biases certainly do. There's also the matter of the difference between claiming to set aside your partisan bias and being neutral, and actually doing so. I've seen many more people make the claim as opposed to people successfully demonstrating neutrality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The members of the Silver Covenant hate the Horde and wish to aid the Alliance. This is a fact. It is also a fact that in the recent, bloody war they did not do either. Either losses over the years have finally rendered them non-functional, or the neutrality of Dalaran (the city in which they now lived) compelled them to stay their hand, or a combination of both. It is more than possible to be partisan, yet circumstances enforce a de facto neutrality upon you. They may not aspire to neutrality as the speaker does, but neutrality is compelled upon them to safeguard Dalaran. After all, should a partisan militia begin attacking the Horde and then retreating to 'neutral' Dalaran after striking out, the Horde would rapidly conclude that Dalaran neutrality is a contradiction and render the city a target of attack.
    I think it more likely that High Elven exiles actively aiding in the Blood War have temporarily rescinded their membership to the Silver Covenant so as not to compromise Dalaran's newfound and restored neutrality under Khadgar, hence why they appear in unassociated corps in Kul Tiras and the Island Expeditions. It's probably a requirement of the Silver Covenant so that it can remain in Dalaran. But again, this doesn't make the Covenant neutral by any means - it's just a requirement of their deal with Dalaran and the Kirin Tor, to give the majority of their remaining people a home away from perpetual struggle and further losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This seems to be devolving into a debate over how exactly their situation is described. Individual exiles are partisan. Their organisation has had neutrality compelled upon it by the Kirin Tor.
    I'd say it's actually more a debate over what constitutes effective neutrality. Obeying the terms of an effective armistice or cease-fire agreement doesn't make an organization neutral, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Silver Covenant uses the term Rangers rather than Farstriders. And what you are describing did not happen. Veressa never said a word, seemingly present only because of her connection to Sylvanas (her new role in the story is the windrunner family conflict). Instead, Lor'themar was taking with Shandris Feathermoon, with Lor'themar saying the Farstriders will hunt Sylvanas and Shandris Feathermoon saying the sentinels are also looking.
    I'm using the term Farstriders here because that's what they are - Vereesa herself is a former High Elven Farstrider of Silvermoon, and so are most of her subordinates. Ranger is a more technical term, though if you prefer it that's fine. Vereesa's presence implies the presence of the Silver Covenant (as she's the leader of the organization), and as they're not there in a partisan manner it wouldn't be a technical violation of Dalaran's neutrality given that the Horde and Alliance were in coalition against Sylvanas at this point. I think it's a more or less a given that Vereesa is assisting Alleria in the hunter for their wayward sister - and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in-game in the Alliance version of the War Campaign, though not as part of the conversation you mentioned, as it's more an off-hand remark from an NPC. I'd have to go back and replay the scenario to find it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No High Elven force served the Alliance during the Fourth War. Individual High Elven exiles did, but to describe them as High Elven forces implies armies and attack squads of high elves. We have evidence for three high elven exiles who participated in the fourth war. Two of whom were shield mages who sat on the airship and didn't get their hands dirty. Frostfencer Seraphi is the only high elven exile to actively participate in the fourth war. The comment regarding the Silver Covenant being elsewhere is a little undercut given you confused the Silver Covenant rangers with Shandris Feathermoon's Night Elven sentinels. Nor was the Silver Covenant mentioned in any of the mission table missions, the missions we have used to flesh out what did happen elsewhere during the war.
    Wasn't a claim that I made, as I explained above. The Silver Covenant makes no direct appearance in the Fourth War until its conclusion, when Vereesa is present at Orgrimmar. Their majority continues to reside in Dalaran. Those High Elves exiles who did sign up to fight in the war were either independent operators, or former Silver Covenant who rescinded their membership so as not to compromise the status of the Silver Covenant in Dalaran. That was not an option likely afforded to their leader, so Vereesa was constrained from fighting in the war in any direct capacity, at least until its conclusion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Ah, yes. Let's use this military spaceship equipped with a powerful weapon that can do surgically precise powerful laser attacks which could be used to save hundreds, if not thousands of soldier lives... just to train soldiers to throw into the war grind machine. It'll be fiiiiiiine. (/s)
    They likely didn't use its weaponary as it would have been a ridiculous story beat. Still doesn't change the fact that the LF Draenei were very much present in this faction war, as opposed to the high elves who were not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    When? The only time you ever see the Vindicaar as a lightforged draenei is when you create your character, and then at 110 when you earn your heritage armor. If you didn't use a level boost, of course. You never see it as any other race, and you never see it used anywhere at all in BfA content.
    The player is the recruit, and the Vindicaar was used as a training ground... so regardless of how you felt it should be used it was at the end of the day still utilized in this faction war. Also, a character level boost does not negate the lore just because the player skips that particular section of story... the lore remains irrespective of you the player seeing it or not.

    So, do you have any valid arguments or are you just going to continue arguing for the sake of it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My argument is that de facto neutrality isn't actual neutrality - not objectively, intrinsically, essentially, or factually.
    Then explain why the SC were absent during this faction war if they aren't neutral?



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm using the term Farstriders here because that's what they are
    I've never once seen the SC refer to their rangers as Farstriders. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Still doesn't change the fact that the LF Draenei were very much present in this faction war, as opposed to the high elves who were not.
    This has never been an important nor a critical point that High elves should pass over. Stop treating your personal checklist as proof, you are not a developer either.

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