1. #14001
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Then explain why the SC were absent during this faction war if they aren't neutral?
    My argument was that they weren't. The High Elven exiles, obviously quite few in number, who do fight on behalf of the Alliance aren't Silver Covenant explicitly - they're likely former Silver Covenant (or entirely third parties). The Silver Covenant is constrained by Dalaran's neutrality as their host, and because of that they don't directly fight for the Alliance even though they're Alliance partisans through and through. But as I reiterated many times, the political reality that they remain uninvolved doesn't make them neutral in any sense save the functional - they don't fight because they can't (and keep their place in Dalaran), not because of any ethical standpoint on their parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I've never once seen the SC refer to their rangers as Farstriders. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
    I'm unsure if they do, to be honest - never something I've looked into. Vereesa was a former Farstrider in high standing before her exile, and she retains the Farstrider rank of "Ranger-General" of the Silver Covenant, so I kind of assumed the High Elven Rangers in exile kept the moniker of "Farstrider" as well. Renthar Hawkspear also kept his title as a Ranger-Lord of the Farstriders despite his exile. The Farstrider organization is a Blood Elven one, but given the givens I think it's likely the High Elven exile Rangers still consider themselves Farstriders as well. The titles of the Farstriders seem to be organizationally transient - as Nathanos and Areiel are still Ranger-Lords (despite becoming Dark Rangers and Forsaken), as well as Ranger-Captain Auric Sunchaser who is himself a High Elven exile.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #14002
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Again, LF Draenei were very much present in this faction war. And the Vindicaar was used in the faction war... not just in the way "you believe" it should have been used. The Vindicaar was used as a base of operations to train new recruits who subsequently assist in the faction war.

    The LF Draenei assist the Alliance during the faction war on several occasions, such as during the assault of Drustvar in defending the region from the Horde and in the battle for Dazar'alor.

    From a quick count, there is a significantly higher number of LF Draenei than high elf exiles participating in this faction war.. yet aren't high elves apparently meant to be a "core alliance race"? The answer... no, they are not.
    Exactly. Void Elves also had much more representation, being very eager to prove themselves to their new allies.

    This is what storytelling is about, to progress the story. Not to regress to some relics of the past, where the story ended when High Elves started to call themselves Blood Elves. Every single time afterwards, the "High Elves" have been nothing more than plot devices for the Blood Elves. This role belongs 100% to NPCs.

  3. #14003
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    They likely didn't use its weaponary as it would have been a ridiculous story beat.
    It doesn't matter. Show the Horde infiltrating and sabotaging the Vindicaar to make its weapons useless. Anything is better than simply pretending it does not exist.

    The player is the recruit, and the Vindicaar was used as a training ground...
    That's like as if, in Final Fantasy 7, Shinra used their giant canon base of Junon to just train more soldiers to throw against those giant Weapon monsters instead of, y'know, actually firing that canon?

    Or, in a more 'real world' situation, in the middle of a war, heavy tanks being used as transport vehicles instead of used in the war itself, shooting its canon and breaking enemy lines.

    so regardless of how you felt it should be used
    Funny how you attempt to diminish what I write by saying "how you feel it should be used", when you are also doing the exact thing: saying "how you feel" neutrality, or the lack thereof, should be presented.

    Then explain why the SC were absent during this faction war if they aren't neutral?
    Y'know who else is kind of absent? The draenei. I haven't seen Velen at all in this expansion, and the draenei as a whole seem... very scarce. And explaining what Aucald said: the Silver Covenant are not "de facto" neutral, but their deal with the Kirin Tor might prevent them from joining the war. Not because they are neutral, but because they are likely not allowed to without breaking their deal with the Kirin Tor.

    Remember: the Silver Covenant was quite eager in killing Horde members during the Purge of Dalaran. They would not do that if they were neutral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    This is what storytelling is about, to progress the story. Not to regress to some relics of the past,
    Illidan. Gul'Dan. Grommash. Kar'gath Bladefist. Etc...

    where the story ended when High Elves started to call themselves Blood Elves.
    Not all high elves did so. Some are still high elves.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-12-16 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #14004
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My argument is that de facto neutrality isn't actual neutrality - not objectively, intrinsically, essentially, or factually. The fact that they're not seen in the Fourth War is immaterial to this, and absence of evidence in this context is not evidence of absence. They're not present because they not present, either because they're busy elsewhere or didn't consider it a cause worth endangering their already meager population for. Doesn't change the equation, and it's also not uncommon for WoW.
    Which is not the point I was making either. My point is that they are de facto neutral because of their residence within the neutral city of Dalaran. Because their allegiance to the neutral city of Dalaran prevented them from participating in the war, because they respected that neutrality...then they are not a part of the Alliance.

    Were they a part of the Alliance, they would have fought for it. They didn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And the person who takes that position must be able to set aside said bias to assume the mantle, if they cannot, then ethically they should recuse themselves from it. Bias is a matter of scale, and it can be set aside in some cases - and other cases, not so much. I am not saying all bias makes neutrality impossible, but profound biases certainly do. There's also the matter of the difference between claiming to set aside your partisan bias and being neutral, and actually doing so. I've seen many more people make the claim as opposed to people successfully demonstrating neutrality.
    Setting aside the bias is what every Speaker is expected to do. They are then regarded as neutral even if such neutral is skin deep, a matter of form. The point is that Silver Covenant members cannot participate in a war against the Horde while Dalaran remains neutral. They have to set aside their bias and put Dalaran first. This does not mean they aren't biased, and as shown when they think they can get away with it they absolutely are not neutral, but as citizens of Dalaran they must respect the laws of their home city.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think it more likely that High Elven exiles actively aiding in the Blood War have temporarily rescinded their membership to the Silver Covenant so as not to compromise Dalaran's newfound and restored neutrality under Khadgar, hence why they appear in unassociated corps in Kul Tiras and the Island Expeditions. It's probably a requirement of the Silver Covenant so that it can remain in Dalaran. But again, this doesn't make the Covenant neutral by any means - it's just a requirement of their deal with Dalaran and the Kirin Tor, to give the majority of their remaining people a home away from perpetual struggle and further losses.
    Plausible, but if you have to resign from an organisation in order to act according to your conscience and against your enemies that implies the organisation itself is still neutral. The Silver Covenant is NOT a part of the Alliance. Were it a part of the Alliance, such a workaround would not be required.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'd say it's actually more a debate over what constitutes effective neutrality. Obeying the terms of an effective armistice or cease-fire agreement doesn't make an organization neutral, either.
    Not participating in the biggest faction war ever seen however, does. Were they a part of the Alliance, they would have fought for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm using the term Farstriders here because that's what they are - Vereesa herself is a former High Elven Farstrider of Silvermoon, and so are most of her subordinates. Ranger is a more technical term, though if you prefer it that's fine. Vereesa's presence implies the presence of the Silver Covenant (as she's the leader of the organization), and as they're not there in a partisan manner it wouldn't be a technical violation of Dalaran's neutrality given that the Horde and Alliance were in coalition against Sylvanas at this point. I think it's a more or less a given that Vereesa is assisting Alleria in the hunter for their wayward sister - and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in-game in the Alliance version of the War Campaign, though not as part of the conversation you mentioned, as it's more an off-hand remark from an NPC. I'd have to go back and replay the scenario to find it again.
    Veressa's presence does not imply that when the obvious reason for her presence is the familial connection she has with Sylvanas. Just as going to Argus was a personal matter for her that no other Silver Covenant member was involved with, to find her sister Alleria, so was her participation in the battle of the gates of Orgrimmar.
    I have been through the scenario several times as well, once on an Alliance character. Due to this debate I was highly alert to anything that supported the pro High Elf position that the high elven exiles are an important part of the Alliance.
    What you recall is simply too similar to what Lor'themar spoke with Shandris Feathermoon about, of Farstriders and Sentinels hunting Sylvanas, to be coincidental. I believe you are misremembering a small part of the questline as a result. Veressa said nothing during the course of the scenario. If you find evidence to the contrary I would be happy to see it though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Wasn't a claim that I made, as I explained above. The Silver Covenant makes no direct appearance in the Fourth War until its conclusion, when Vereesa is present at Orgrimmar. Their majority continues to reside in Dalaran. Those High Elves exiles who did sign up to fight in the war were either independent operators, or former Silver Covenant who rescinded their membership so as not to compromise the status of the Silver Covenant in Dalaran. That was not an option likely afforded to their leader, so Vereesa was constrained from fighting in the war in any direct capacity, at least until its conclusion.
    Yet this again returns to the fundamental point. The debate over the nuances of the word neutrality reminds me of the debate over it's in regards to the Pandaren, who are defined as a neutral race yet whose comprising factions are themselves actually partisan.

    The fundamental point is this. The Silver Covenant cannot fight for the Alliance because of their responsibilities to Dalaran. if they cannot fight for the Alliance because of a superseding loyalty to another sovereignty, then they are not a part of the Alliance. They maybe partisan towards it, but in no universe does it make sense for a member of the Alliance to refuse to fight for the Alliance because of a responsibility to another power.

  5. #14005
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Exactly. Void Elves also had much more representation, being very eager to prove themselves to their new allies.

    This is what storytelling is about, to progress the story. Not to regress to some relics of the past, where the story ended when High Elves started to call themselves Blood Elves. Every single time afterwards, the "High Elves" have been nothing more than plot devices for the Blood Elves. This role belongs 100% to NPCs.
    I didn't knew that I played as Lor'themar or Liadrin or Rommath.

    Oh wait, I don't, I play as a Blood elf.

  6. #14006
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Exactly. Void Elves also had much more representation, being very eager to prove themselves to their new allies.

    This is what storytelling is about, to progress the story. Not to regress to some relics of the past, where the story ended when High Elves started to call themselves Blood Elves. Every single time afterwards, the "High Elves" have been nothing more than plot devices for the Blood Elves. This role belongs 100% to NPCs.
    I mean this is just hilariously subjective lol. And kinda ridiculous, cause it implies that merely revisiting old concepts is regressive, which would make races like the Nightborne and the Kultirans the epitome of it bhaha.

    It's just so patently silly to claim only the remaining High Elves are beheld to not evolving and remaining as relics of the past, unlike every other group that still exists and gets to grow and change.

    It's just such a disingenuous argument to hold, to say HE can't change but they also can't just be as they are cause they're just a remain of a bygone era.

    Also it's just downright wrong to say "their story ended" when the foundation of the Silver Covenant and their continued appearances has all happened after the split with the BE; and to then claim that it doesn't count because they are just "plot device for blood elves"? Well that's just dumb. Like do you realize that no matter the framing the narrative still exists, right?

  7. #14007
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I mean this is just hilariously subjective lol. And kinda ridiculous, cause it implies that merely revisiting old concepts is regressive, which would make races like the Nightborne and the Kultirans the epitome of it bhaha.

    It's just so patently silly to claim only the remaining High Elves are beheld to not evolving and remaining as relics of the past, unlike every other group that still exists and gets to grow and change.

    It's just such a disingenuous argument to hold, to say HE can't change but they also can't just be as they are cause they're just a remain of a bygone era.

    Also it's just downright wrong to say "their story ended" when the foundation of the Silver Covenant and their continued appearances has all happened after the split with the BE; and to then claim that it doesn't count because they are just "plot device for blood elves"? Well that's just dumb. Like do you realize that no matter the framing the narrative still exists, right?
    And, that's not all.

    Saying that 'X story ended' is super disingenuous and out of touch.

    World of Warcraft IS NOT A BOOK, and the way a story ends for a character is mostly done through it's death, because the story just keeps advancing and advancing without a final page with the word 'Fin' on it. And some times death is not even the final part of a character's story.

    Imagine saying that not a character, but a group of characters have their 'story ended' out of the blue just because you don't actually want their story to continue. Tell me about stretching things LOL

  8. #14008
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    This has never been an important nor a critical point that High elves should pass over. Stop treating your personal checklist as proof, you are not a developer either.
    You seem to have a tendency of replying completely out of context to comments I or others make. I suggest you read the conversation next time before interjecting.

    But for now to save you a bit of time, the context of this particular conversation was that high elves do not have the same presence in this faction war as the Alliance races (original playable races and ARs), given they're first and foremostly loyal to the Kirin Tor. This is evidenced by the fact that A) the high elves as a militia group are completely absent in this war, and B) even races such as the LF Draenei and void elves have a greater contribution in this faction war. Why? Because they pledge their loyalties to the Alliance first, as opposed to the high elves who honor the neutrality of the Kirin Tor and subsequently have next to no contribution whatsoever in this faction war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My argument was that they weren't. The High Elven exiles, obviously quite few in number, who do fight on behalf of the Alliance aren't Silver Covenant explicitly - they're likely former Silver Covenant (or entirely third parties). The Silver Covenant is constrained by Dalaran's neutrality as their host, and because of that they don't directly fight for the Alliance even though they're Alliance partisans through and through. But as I reiterated many times, the political reality that they remain uninvolved doesn't make them neutral in any sense save the functional - they don't fight because they can't (and keep their place in Dalaran), not because of any ethical standpoint on their parts.
    If the SC loyalties were with the Alliance first and foremost, then they would have participated in this war between the Alliance and the Horde... there's no excuse. The fact they honored the neutral stance of the Kirin Tor is a clear indication of where their loyalties and priorities lie. In saying that, of coarse they align themselves with the Alliance on certain occasions, but they clearly aren't a "core" aspect of the Alliance... else they would have been active as a militia group in this war. The fact that they chose as a group to remain neutral isn't out of line of their characteristics either, as high elves have generally been more concerned about their own well being above others. In this case, it likely was not in their best interest to join this war (it could have spelled their extinction) and as such, neutrality likely suited them and their motives best. Yes they are alliance aligned, no they are not a "core" part of the Alliance. BfA (the expansion about FACTION conflict) progressed just fine without high elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm unsure if they do, to be honest - never something I've looked into. Vereesa was a former Farstrider in high standing before her exile, and she retains the Farstrider rank of "Ranger-General" of the Silver Covenant, so I kind of assumed the High Elven Rangers in exile kept the moniker of "Farstrider" as well. Renthar Hawkspear also kept his title as a Ranger-Lord of the Farstriders despite his exile. The Farstrider organization is a Blood Elven one, but given the givens I think it's likely the High Elven exile Rangers still consider themselves Farstriders as well. The titles of the Farstriders seem to be organizationally transient - as Nathanos and Areiel are still Ranger-Lords (despite becoming Dark Rangers and Forsaken), as well as Ranger-Captain Auric Sunchaser who is himself a High Elven exile.
    I get what you're saying here, and I agree that high elven rangers have kept the moniker of "Farstrider" to some degree. I just don't think calling them "Farstriders" is accurate, given that the Farstriders are strictly a blood elven group. Alliance high elf exile rangers have attempted to mimic this moniker, but it is clearly a watered down version as we have no clear example of what exactly it means to be a "high elf" ranger. This is consistent with the developer comments that "there is no clear example of who or what a high elf is". They've lost their culture and are assimilating into human culture, so aspects like "Farstrider" and "Magister" have very much been diluted amongst the dwindling high elf population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Exactly. Void Elves also had much more representation, being very eager to prove themselves to their new allies.

    This is what storytelling is about, to progress the story. Not to regress to some relics of the past, where the story ended when High Elves started to call themselves Blood Elves. Every single time afterwards, the "High Elves" have been nothing more than plot devices for the Blood Elves. This role belongs 100% to NPCs.
    This 100%. The "high elf" story has progressed via the Blood Elves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It doesn't matter. Show the Horde infiltrating and sabotaging the Vindicaar to make its weapons useless. Anything is better than simply pretending it does not exist.
    The goblin missile launcher wasn't used either. Somethings are just better left out to make a more "appealing" story. We just spent an expansion travelling to space (ie Argus), so on that note I can understand why they may have decided to leave out any "outer space" aspects of the story and focus purely on Azeroth itself. Plus this expansion had a strong emphasis on navies, it'd kinda be weird to include space ships too. Just my opinion though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Y'know who else is kind of absent? The draenei. I haven't seen Velen at all in this expansion, and the draenei as a whole seem... very scarce.
    There is a Draenei in the introduction cinematic for BfA. And Draenei quest givers, Draenei soldiers, Velen is in the Alliance embassy... etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And explaining what Aucald said: the Silver Covenant are not "de facto" neutral, but their deal with the Kirin Tor might prevent them from joining the war. Not because they are neutral, but because they are likely not allowed to without breaking their deal with the Kirin Tor.
    If they were not neutral they would have joined this faction war. The decided instead to remain neutral and honor their relationship with the Kirin Tor above any kind of relationship they have with the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Remember: the Silver Covenant was quite eager in killing Horde members during the Purge of Dalaran. They would not do that if they were neutral.
    The removed Horde from Dalaran under the direction of the then leader of the Kirin Tor, not under the direction of the Alliance.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  9. #14009
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    If the SC loyalties were with the Alliance first and foremost, then they would have participated in this war between the Alliance and the Horde... there's no excuse. The fact they honored the neutral stance of the Kirin Tor is a clear indication of where their loyalties and priorities lie. In saying that, of coarse they align themselves with the Alliance on certain occasions, but they clearly aren't a "core" aspect of the Alliance... else they would have been active as a militia group in this war. The fact that they chose as a group to remain neutral isn't out of line of their characteristics either, as high elves have generally been more concerned about their own well being above others. In this case, it likely was not in their best interest to join this war (it could have spelled their extinction) and as such, neutrality likely suited them and their motives best. Yes they are alliance aligned, no they are not a "core" part of the Alliance. BfA (the expansion about FACTION conflict) progressed just fine without high elves.
    Not participating so that the majority of their people can keep their homes in Dalaran seems like a valid excuse to me, though YMMV (and neither of us have any say on the issue as a narrative element in the story in any case). Their loyalties have already been established to lay with the Alliance, but their priorities are at odds. They also needn't be "core" to have a pronounced affiliation, and as an extension, the already agreed-upon affiliation makes them decidedly non-neutral. Being an active combatant in a war isn't required for partisanship, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I get what you're saying here, and I agree that high elven rangers have kept the moniker of "Farstrider" to some degree. I just don't think calling them "Farstriders" is accurate, given that the Farstriders are strictly a blood elven group. Alliance high elf exile rangers have attempted to mimic this moniker, but it is clearly a watered down version as we have no clear example of what exactly it means to be a "high elf" ranger. This is consistent with the developer comments that "there is no clear example of who or what a high elf is". They've lost their culture and are assimilating into human culture, so aspects like "Farstrider" and "Magister" have very much been diluted amongst the dwindling high elf population.
    Bit of a non-issue, insofar as I see it. If they want to call themselves Farstriders I'm fine recognizing them as such, they were after all members of that organization prior to their cultural split. Same if they want to retain the title of Magister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Which is not the point I was making either. My point is that they are de facto neutral because of their residence within the neutral city of Dalaran. Because their allegiance to the neutral city of Dalaran prevented them from participating in the war, because they respected that neutrality...then they are not a part of the Alliance.

    Were they a part of the Alliance, they would have fought for it. They didn't.
    They're recognized as part of the Alliance, they've fought for and with the Alliance in the past, and in any Horde vs. Alliance engagement in which they participated they've always sided with the Alliance. The weight of their affiliation outclasses their neutrality on almost all fronts, and only their desire to keep their home in Dalaran stops them from pitching in completely.

    They're not yet formally part of the Alliance, but they are definitely affiliated and allied with it on every other level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Setting aside the bias is what every Speaker is expected to do. They are then regarded as neutral even if such neutral is skin deep, a matter of form. The point is that Silver Covenant members cannot participate in a war against the Horde while Dalaran remains neutral. They have to set aside their bias and put Dalaran first. This does not mean they aren't biased, and as shown when they think they can get away with it they absolutely are not neutral, but as citizens of Dalaran they must respect the laws of their home city.
    Expected to do, yes; and if they should prove unable to do it my point still stands: they should recuse themselves. The members of the Silver Covenant also *can* aid in the war if they leave Dalaran and the Silver Covenant, fighting for the Alliance as independent mercenaries or auxiliaries. This probably explains Seraphi and some of the other High Elven exiles seen serving alongside the Alliance in the Blood War. Either way, this still doesn't make the Silver Covenant a neutral party - only constrained by the laws of Dalaran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Plausible, but if you have to resign from an organisation in order to act according to your conscience and against your enemies that implies the organisation itself is still neutral. The Silver Covenant is NOT a part of the Alliance. Were it a part of the Alliance, such a workaround would not be required.
    I never said the Silver Covenant was part of the Alliance, only strongly affiliated with it (and thus far from neutral). Dalaran's neutrality is not a transitive quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Not participating in the biggest faction war ever seen however, does. Were they a part of the Alliance, they would have fought for it.
    If they were formally part of the Alliance, this would be true - they're not, however, as they're only affiliated with it. Until they actually become a true Allied Race like the Kul Tirans or the Dark Iron Dwarves, they'll remain affiliated by not fully aligned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Veressa's presence does not imply that when the obvious reason for her presence is the familial connection she has with Sylvanas. Just as going to Argus was a personal matter for her that no other Silver Covenant member was involved with, to find her sister Alleria, so was her participation in the battle of the gates of Orgrimmar. I have been through the scenario several times as well, once on an Alliance character. Due to this debate I was highly alert to anything that supported the pro High Elf position that the high elven exiles are an important part of the Alliance. What you recall is simply too similar to what Lor'themar spoke with Shandris Feathermoon about, of Farstriders and Sentinels hunting Sylvanas, to be coincidental. I believe you are misremembering a small part of the questline as a result. Veressa said nothing during the course of the scenario. If you find evidence to the contrary I would be happy to see it though.
    I might be misremembering it, but since this particular point isn't really relevant to the original argument I'll let it drop. In any case, Vereesa's presence alone, as the Ranger-General of the Silver Covenant, still implies both their presence and involvement in the conflict either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yet this again returns to the fundamental point. The debate over the nuances of the word neutrality reminds me of the debate over it's in regards to the Pandaren, who are defined as a neutral race yet whose comprising factions are themselves actually partisan.
    The Pandaren of mainland Pandaria and the Houjin and Tushui Pandaren of the Wandering Isles are two different people, with an entirely different culture and thus a different political reality. That they're all of Pandaren stock isn't material - races alone don't have political affiliations, political groups do. This is why there are some Humans (such as Plunder Harbor in Tiragarde Sound) that serve the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The fundamental point is this. The Silver Covenant cannot fight for the Alliance because of their responsibilities to Dalaran. if they cannot fight for the Alliance because of a superseding loyalty to another sovereignty, then they are not a part of the Alliance. They maybe partisan towards it, but in no universe does it make sense for a member of the Alliance to refuse to fight for the Alliance because of a responsibility to another power.
    My point is that the Silver Covenant's responsibility to Dalaran doesn't make them neutral, and fighting for the Alliance isn't required for them to remain affiliated and thus partisan. History is replete with scenarios where certain groups wish to intercede or aid their allies but are otherwise constrained by doing so due to existing treaties, agreements, or external circumstances. I think you confuse de facto non-aggression with fundamental or objective neutrality, in which case I think you're just wrong on the face of it.

    But I don't think we're going to make any real headway here, unfortunately, as we see the political realities of Dalaran, the Silver Covenant, and the Alliance very differently and thus come to very different conclusions - so this will be my last contribution in this regard.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #14010
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    This 100%. The "high elf" story has progressed via the Blood Elves.
    Nah. The blood elf story is progressed via the blood elves. The high elf story is progressed by the high elves.

    The goblin missile launcher wasn't used either. Somethings are just better left out to make a more "appealing" story.
    The goblin missile launcher wasn't ever used, I believe? So that could be explained as 'unfinished'. But either way, it's the bloody "Chekov's gun" thing. You don't add things to a story to just then forget they exist, acting as if those things never existed in the first place. Leaving them out doesn't make it a story more "appealing", it only makes it lazy.

    There is a Draenei in the introduction cinematic for BfA. And Draenei quest givers, Draenei soldiers, Velen is in the Alliance embassy... etc.
    In the embassy... doing nothing.

    If they were not neutral they would have joined this faction war.
    Not necessarily. There are many reasons why they're not being shown. One of them being that they could also be doing something away from the battlefields.

    By that same reasoning, you could say that Khadgar doesn't care one bit regarding the fate of Azeroth since he is neither helping end this war, not is he helping Magni find a way to cure the planet's ailment.

    The removed Horde from Dalaran under the direction of the then leader of the Kirin Tor, not under the direction of the Alliance.
    Oh, please. Don't try to play innocent. The Silver Covenant have made it pretty clear where their allegiances lie several times in the past. Here's a couple, from the Purge of Dalaran:

    "The Sunreaver's Sanctuary is still crawling with those Horde-loving Sunreavers."
    "Show them the cost of their defiance. They now face the judgment of the Alliance, the Silver Covenant, and the Kirin Tor!"


    "Hmph. The Horde and the Sunreavers aren't all that different. They deserve one another."
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-12-17 at 03:23 AM.

  11. #14011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    You seem to have a tendency of replying completely out of context to comments I or others make. I suggest you read the conversation next time before interjecting.
    Hey, it's not my fault that you want to pretend this, what I said is clear enought for someone to not shame themselves by responding what you did.

    But for now to save you a bit of time, the context of this particular conversation was that high elves do not have the same presence in this faction war as the Alliance races (original playable races and ARs), given they're first and foremostly loyal to the Kirin Tor. This is evidenced by the fact that A) the high elves as a militia group are completely absent in this war, and B) even races such as the LF Draenei and void elves have a greater contribution in this faction war. Why? Because they pledge their loyalties to the Alliance first, as opposed to the high elves who honor the neutrality of the Kirin Tor and subsequently have next to no contribution whatsoever in this faction war.
    Aham... Yeah. And what?

    It's simply that: And what?

    This point is useless, is not that I answered out of context my little dear, is that I am questioning the very utility of this point, since it actually does not have any real importance. People ask for playable options that are currently out of any faction and current playable options were out of factions in the past. And orcs, the same ones who are in the Horde today, were in war with the Sin'dorei in the past.

    I mean, that point is nothing more than your personal checklist being passed as proof. That is not how it works, you are not a wow developer.

  12. #14012
    Warcraft Reforged has added different skins for high and blood elf units.



    Of note is that high elves can have blue, orange or pink eyes now, while blood elves are always green-eyed.
    Whatever...

  13. #14013
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post

    I've never once seen the SC refer to their rangers as Farstriders. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
    Silver Covenant Farstriders is a term that has officially been used, and many of these Farstriders are rangers, always has been, the institution operating in Silvermoon under the blood elf banner operates the same way, they are the Farstriders, and many of them are rangers. Farstrider is not a class but an institution, but ranger is a class.

    I would imagine the same is for a night elf sentinel - Sentinel is the Order, but a sentinel can be a hunter, warrior or rogue in class, although most of us associate them with a female warrior. Similarly Farstriders can be Rangers, hunters and rogues - my assumption is in Warcraft, Ranger is a very specific type of hunter class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm unsure if they do, to be honest - never something I've looked into. Vereesa was a former Farstrider in high standing before her exile, and she retains the Farstrider rank of "Ranger-General" of the Silver Covenant, so I kind of assumed the High Elven Rangers in exile kept the moniker of "Farstrider" as well. Renthar Hawkspear also kept his title as a Ranger-Lord of the Farstriders despite his exile. The Farstrider organization is a Blood Elven one, but given the givens I think it's likely the High Elven exile Rangers still consider themselves Farstriders as well. The titles of the Farstriders seem to be organizationally transient - as Nathanos and Areiel are still Ranger-Lords (despite becoming Dark Rangers and Forsaken), as well as Ranger-Captain Auric Sunchaser who is himself a High Elven exile.
    I'm not sure what the struggle is here. when you look into the high elves and blood elves, and how their story goes, you would imagine the high elves to have in effect it's own "shadow" organisation like the opposition party in British politics has it's "shadow" government, "the party not in power" (compare that to in-exile) would have it's own racial insittutions. Just like the confederacy in the civil war had it's own Senate etc, using the same names as the union, beliving themselves to be the true or proper America.

    It is in a similar way I imagine the high elves have their Farstriders and other institutions where their is a need and the numbers, from their culture. I assume Farstrider is the largest and most well known, but as we see silver Covenant mages and other classes, not all Silver Covenant members are Farstriders.

    There is also the possibility that all high elves retain their positions and ranks, and while Silvermoon exiled and don't recognise their ranks, they retain them as high elves in the alliance in the way they organise themselves even gaining promotions they can grant themselves where needed. For example, as the highest ranking Farstrider in the Silver covenant, Vereesa would be Ranger General

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Exactly. Void Elves also had much more representation, being very eager to prove themselves to their new allies.

    This is what storytelling is about, to progress the story. Not to regress to some relics of the past, where the story ended when High Elves started to call themselves Blood Elves. Every single time afterwards, the "High Elves" have been nothing more than plot devices for the Blood Elves. This role belongs 100% to NPCs.
    Again, this doesn't mean that high elves aren't present and doing something - because they are not shown in focus we can't make that assumptions.

    However, fyi, High elves have always been a plot device for blood elves and vice versa, except that some very stubborn minds don't seem to get it.. people just don't always seem to be capable of zooming out and seeing things from a developer stand point. They complained for a non-playable race high elves got too much attention, what they never saw, that whenever you saw high elves, you were seeing the blood elf race, it's just a faction of the same race, and you can make the same argument swapping the names around. People just don't realise it because the faction divide is so strong in their mind.

    I'm not sure they realise how blizzard do races, but regardless of what faction a sub-race is on, it is part of the main race storyline. Nightborne will forever be a part of the night elf storyline, void elves are forever a part of the Blood/high elf story line, Mechagnomes of the gnomes, Earthern, Iron, Frost dwarves are all a part of the dwarf race saga - regardless if some are neutral, extinct, or in either or both of the factions.

    I use to smile and laugh at those getting cheesed off at the attention high elves were getting in game more so than other so called "playable" races and was shocked they couldn't see that this was the blood elves (the name of the race just changes based on your faction as a genetic race can have many sub-factions and sub-races)

    High elves were always telilng more of the blood elf story, and you can equally view it as blood elves telling more of the high elf story. Void elves also does that, except now you can play this sub-race/faction. Part of the blood elves (as a race) are on the alliance as high elves, and their sub-race the void elf exists on the alliance.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I mean this is just hilariously subjective lol. And kinda ridiculous, cause it implies that merely revisiting old concepts is regressive, which would make races like the Nightborne and the Kultirans the epitome of it bhaha.

    It's just so patently silly to claim only the remaining High Elves are beheld to not evolving and remaining as relics of the past, unlike every other group that still exists and gets to grow and change.

    It's just such a disingenuous argument to hold, to say HE can't change but they also can't just be as they are cause they're just a remain of a bygone era.

    Also it's just downright wrong to say "their story ended" when the foundation of the Silver Covenant and their continued appearances has all happened after the split with the BE; and to then claim that it doesn't count because they are just "plot device for blood elves"? Well that's just dumb. Like do you realize that no matter the framing the narrative still exists, right?
    Well said, /10

    Sometimes I think people's blind hatred for the faction is messing up their logic circuits and eithe rin intesne hatred or desire to win an argument are making more logic errors and it is showing the more they argue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post



    This 100%. The "high elf" story has progressed via the Blood Elves.
    That's the not really the right way to look at it. You can also successfully argue the high elf story continues apart from the blood elves, so 100% wouldn't be accurate.

    But still that wouldn't be the best way to look at it. The same issue exists in certain night elf arguments. The confusion is coming from Blood elf term being used as a race and sometimes being used as a faction.

    Context would disntiguish it normally, but failure to appreciate this difference can exists when referring to the group is the source of most issues. Let's use your statement above

    From the perspective of the race blood elves, yes the high elf story has mainly progressed via the blood elves (not 100%) though, but essentially the high elf is the blood elf and the blood elf is the high elf - same genetic race, which is why usually when referring to the race, many people now say Thalassians.

    From the perspective of faction, the Blood Elves and High Elves have different stories and are often at odds with one another. They are not the same group nor are they same peoples anymore. They were once one, but no longer. This can happen without racial mutations occurring. It's the same if some humans went to fight for the horde, like Alterac, on the horde you'd play an Alterac human, same race. From this perspective 0% of the high elf story has progressed via the Blood Elves as you put it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Pandaren of mainland Pandaria and the Houjin and Tushui Pandaren of the Wandering Isles are two different people, with an entirely different culture and thus a different political reality. That they're all of Pandaren stock isn't material - races alone don't have political affiliations, political groups do. This is why there are some Humans (such as Plunder Harbor in Tiragarde Sound) that serve the Horde.
    Exactly. However I doubt many people would realise this.

  14. #14014
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post

    Context would disntiguish it normally, but failure to appreciate this difference can exists when referring to the group is the source of most issues. Let's use your statement above

    From the perspective of the race blood elves, yes the high elf story has mainly progressed via the blood elves (not 100%) though, but essentially the high elf is the blood elf and the blood elf is the high elf - same genetic race, which is why usually when referring to the race, many people now say Thalassians.

    From the perspective of faction, the Blood Elves and High Elves have different stories and are often at odds with one another. They are not the same group nor are they same peoples anymore. They were once one, but no longer. This can happen without racial mutations occurring. It's the same if some humans went to fight for the horde, like Alterac, on the horde you'd play an Alterac human, same race. From this perspective 0% of the high elf story has progressed via the Blood Elves as you put it
    This is very well said and explained. To differentiate like you did here should tell people that they can be the same, but still so different because their alliegence is whats important here.

  15. #14015
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    This is very well said and explained. To differentiate like you did here should tell people that they can be the same, but still so different because their alliegence is whats important here.
    I would say that a lot of the split between pro HE and anti HE people aligns with the "Race<Alignment" v/s "Race>Alignment" correspondingly.

    Most people that support HE's seem to agree that political alignment and ideology are more relevant distinctions than biology, with the anti side holding the inverse -mostly because faction identity and exclusivity- and to be honest, it also coincides with a "Lore v/s Gameplay" perspective. That's why most anti HE lore arguments just don't hold water and are contradicted by other lore.

    Now, this is a game, so I do get why gameplay can be more relevant than lore -in fact, it has been in many cases- but in terms of lore, there's no reason why HE's couldn't be an AR. When the reasons that truly stop them from being one are gameplay ones. As such, that's the reason why the anti side lore arguments are just so redundant.

  16. #14016
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I would say that a lot of the split between pro HE and anti HE people aligns with the "Race<Alignment" v/s "Race>Alignment" correspondingly.

    Most people that support HE's seem to agree that political alignment and ideology are more relevant distinctions than biology, with the anti side holding the inverse -mostly because faction identity and exclusivity- and to be honest, it also coincides with a "Lore v/s Gameplay" perspective. That's why most anti HE lore arguments just don't hold water and are contradicted by other lore.

    Now, this is a game, so I do get why gameplay can be more relevant than lore -in fact, it has been in many cases- but in terms of lore, there's no reason why HE's couldn't be an AR. When the reasons that truly stop them from being one are gameplay ones. As such, that's the reason why the anti side lore arguments are just so redundant.
    It is indeed the crux of the disagreement.

    Another one is the fact that Blizzard keeps pushing the idea that small groups are bound to become extinct real soon. When it isn't the case IRL. Some populations have survived from the longest time with very few peoples, others saw their numbers dwindle only to then regrow stronger over time, etc. And in that regard, Quel'danil and the rest of the High Elves enclaves probably allow for sufficient safety for their numbers to grow back over time, if they are cautious.

    Yes, we didn't see the Silver Covenant in BfA. But it's actually rather logical on a gameplay and outside lore reason. Blizzard saw the backlash with the Void Elves. They know that a lot of Alliance players were unhappy with them and that even Horde players agreed that they butchered the lore. Using High Elves alongside them would have been salt in the wounds and led to rawer reactions, something Blizz obviously wanted to avoid.

    And I can prove that it's all gameplay, because I don't think i've met normal Draeneï taking part in the war in significant number (or even small numbers, really). Lightforged got the spotlight (and hopefully it means Blizzard will use the normal ones more like in WoD, with resurgent Rangari, Shamans etc. in the future). It doesn't meant that they are neutrals or something. Blizzard just decided to highlight how important/effective the LF and VE were for the war effort, to the players.

  17. #14017
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    It is indeed the crux of the disagreement.

    Another one is the fact that Blizzard keeps pushing the idea that small groups are bound to become extinct real soon. When it isn't the case IRL. Some populations have survived from the longest time with very few peoples, others saw their numbers dwindle only to then regrow stronger over time, etc. And in that regard, Quel'danil and the rest of the High Elves enclaves probably allow for sufficient safety for their numbers to grow back over time, if they are cautious.

    Yes, we didn't see the Silver Covenant in BfA. But it's actually rather logical on a gameplay and outside lore reason. Blizzard saw the backlash with the Void Elves. They know that a lot of Alliance players were unhappy with them and that even Horde players agreed that they butchered the lore. Using High Elves alongside them would have been salt in the wounds and led to rawer reactions, something Blizz obviously wanted to avoid.

    And I can prove that it's all gameplay, because I don't think i've met normal Draeneï taking part in the war in significant number (or even small numbers, really). Lightforged got the spotlight (and hopefully it means Blizzard will use the normal ones more like in WoD, with resurgent Rangari, Shamans etc. in the future). It doesn't meant that they are neutrals or something. Blizzard just decided to highlight how important/effective the LF and VE were for the war effort, to the players.
    The issue of extinction by itself even, is not sufficiently addressed; High Elves have been described as going the way of the dodo on the Encyclopedia, which came 2 years before WotlLK, with a city full of High Elves. And never in game the fact they are a dwindling or nearly extinct group has been brought up.

    And even so, we literally have a playable race that is unable to reproduce or create more; the Void Elves. I'm sure like the Forsaken they will be given a way to reproduce somehow, but actual present viability is evidently not a requirement to be a playable race.

  18. #14018
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    This is very well said and explained. To differentiate like you did here should tell people that they can be the same, but still so different because their alliegence is whats important here.
    Yep, it's one of those things more common in wow because sometime race means facion, and these are not necessarily the entire genetic related group because we know them as the playable "races" - which at first may have been conveyed as all members of that race o most layers (although it never really was as Darkspear trolls from the start were a small faction of trolls, not all of them) but then people easiliy confuse things.

    The other prominent example in discussions of this big issue is with night elves. Night elves as a faction almost exclusively refers to the majorly druidc/priestly Darnassians who banned arcane magic for nearly 1-k years, but the race night elves include many other factions and groups like Illidari, shen'dralar highborne, Moonguard, Farondis highborne, and from an umbrella group perspective, nightborne are an off shoot night elf too, where night elf is predominantly a kaldorei based nocturnal elf, which is exactly what the nightborne are as distinguished racially from the night elf as the void elf is from the blood elf, but still under the main umbrella.

    When usually talking about arcane magic or savagery of the night elves, you would find people deny that night elves wield arcane magic or are civilized, when they do that you often find out they are referring to the Night Elf faction which is why we normally refer to that famous group as the Darnassians, to distinguish that not all nigh elves race are that

    When night elves were first revealed, the only ones we knew of were all together I the sme political afliation and we could easily interchange night elf race and Night Elf faction. But as they added more eisting and unaffliated night elves in 1.1, 4.0, 7.0 it became clear that the race was bigger than the existing faction, but most don't update or adapt their lore knowledge

  19. #14019
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I would say that a lot of the split between pro HE and anti HE people aligns with the "Race<Alignment" v/s "Race>Alignment" correspondingly.

    Most people that support HE's seem to agree that political alignment and ideology are more relevant distinctions than biology, with the anti side holding the inverse -mostly because faction identity and exclusivity- and to be honest, it also coincides with a "Lore v/s Gameplay" perspective. That's why most anti HE lore arguments just don't hold water and are contradicted by other lore.

    Now, this is a game, so I do get why gameplay can be more relevant than lore -in fact, it has been in many cases- but in terms of lore, there's no reason why HE's couldn't be an AR. When the reasons that truly stop them from being one are gameplay ones. As such, that's the reason why the anti side lore arguments are just so redundant.
    Yeah, I have said it before, High Elves is THE definition of an Allied Race, and you are completely correct, gameplay is the restriction, not the lore. And to me gameplay is the one only reason why blizzard has decided to not make them a playable Allied Race. There is really no other argument against that holds water towards playable High Elves for the Alliance.

  20. #14020
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, I have said it before, High Elves is THE definition of an Allied Race, and you are completely correct, gameplay is the restriction, not the lore. And to me gameplay is the one only reason why blizzard has decided to not make them a playable Allied Race. There is really no other argument against that holds water towards playable High Elves for the Alliance.
    The lore justification is that they are almost dead, those who cling to the moniker scattered to the four winds. That of course is subservient to the gameplay explanation, that an identical group representative of the entire species is already playable and is a core part of the opposing faction. To say gameplay alone is responsible is incorrect, as while it is the primary reason, there is a lore rationale.

    On the topic of High Elves being THE definition of an allied race, they cannot be. Because when they were considered they were rejected, establishing that at the bare minimum an Allied race must be a variant and not differentiated solely by ideology. The archetypal Allied race is therefore the Mag'har Orcs, the original sub-race request that was asked for as soon as they were revealed in TBC and who have finally made it into the game.

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