Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[ravenmoon]

The reasons are gameplay based. But just because the reasons are gameplay based does not mean they are not facilitated by the lore. You admit that the lore provides enough justification for them not to be playable. That is enough, because if they were in a different situation, with their own city, army, government and a seat at the table it would be next to impossible for Blizzard to maintain the gameplay rationalisation that they aren't available because the race is a core race of the Horde.

Therefore the lore is most definitely a factor.

Ofc I admit it, as we both know, the lore is then written and designed to make the case for playability. So it is no surprise that the lore on high elves is thin, but my suspicion is becaue blizzard really doesn't pay attention to factions or groups that ren't the main focus.

What is notable is that they kept the high elves, and continued using them. I think this back door was intentionally left open as the classic tolekkiin high elf fantasy is not an option they wanted completely removd, just not prominent to give place to the more u nique and original blood elven identity. Still thatwasn't the only motivation.

High elven faction is and always will be part of the high elven or blood elven racial lore, high elves showing up in places like WotLk and beyond may have irritated short sighted people who failed to see that their inclusion was par tof the blood elf (also called high elf) race lore. Pretty just like highborne, nightborne, Illidari, Farondis, Moonguard are all part of the night elven racial lore though the Darnassian faction is predominantly druidic and Elunite based. But like high elf, night elf is both a race and a faction, and people often refer to the faction as much as others refer to the race . So certain statements that are true for the race aren't true for the faction and vice versa.

As we are not developers, we dont' determine who is playable nor why, lore as a reason is pointless because as @Ielenia feels and despite your not incorrect conclusions from her, lore can be changed to suit whatever purpose the developers have. I think a lot of people find you insistence that the developers will never do high elvs quite annoying as you aren't one, yet you go to a long extents to tell them why and how they can never be when dno matter how good your reasons, they fully w ell know is not definitive nor up to you. But I wonder if you pick that up from some of them, while others I feel aren't that irritated by you and enjoy the back and forth, hence their dedication to keep this up.

As for your final point, that lore has ceased to be a factor and citing the addition of the Blood Elves to the Horde, I disagree. Warcraft lore was a lot more free flowing earlier in it's life, capable of accommodating large retcons. We are now fifteen years into the game's operation. The lore has been codified extensively with retcons now covering who knew when and character motivations. There are far less opportunities for major retcons or unexpected swings in the storyline. The Alliance High Elves are not suddenly going to recover to a position where it makes sense for them to become an Allied race, particularly given how often Blizzard has expounded on their nearly extinct status at every opportunity.

I was speaking in more absolute terms, the lore still determines things, and does drive a lot of content, however gameplay is responsible for a lot of cjamges/ Sp,eto,es ot os easy to tell, but most of us usually guess which is which based on thetype of change and the extent of it. Blood elf horde addition if you were arrround in classic, you would remember was the solution the deves felt would address the horde player number deficiencies, therefore there addition as a playable race on the horde was not lore motivated, but the lore adjusted to make it so. Other interviews around the time had High elves and Goblins originally intended to be the next playable races with Northrend the first expansion, although Outland was never taken off the tables. The decision to go with outland Chris directly said was because it offered something newer and a bigger punchline with what they could do with the lands and features - I believe he mentioned the part sci-fi assets in it too for the Draenei as part of the factors in its afaovur, as they really wanted their first expansion to be a big hit, knowing that a misstep on it could really hurt their huge and growing popularity.

Whether blood elves as a race influenced outland being picked or vice versa, it sovle a lot of gameplay issues, and thus we came to know as we had suspected and was later confirmed concerning Tauren druids, alliance warlocks, night elf female druids and NElf male priests that gameplay was winning over lore decisions for some important things.

[scubi666stacy]

Ofc I admit it, as we both know, the lore is then written and designed to make the case for playability. So it is no surprise that the lore on high elves is thin, but my suspicion is becaue blizzard really doesn't pay attention to factions or groups that ren't the main focus.

What is notable is that they kept the high elves, and continued using them. I think this back door was intentionally left open as the classic tolekkiin high elf fantasy is not an option they wanted completely removd, just not prominent to give place to the more u nique and original blood elven identity. Still thatwasn't the only motivation.

High elven faction is and always will be part of the high elven or blood elven racial lore, high elves showing up in places like WotLk and beyond may have irritated short sighted people who failed to see that their inclusion was par tof the blood elf (also called high elf)

race

lore. Pretty just like highborne, nightborne, Illidari, Farondis, Moonguard are all part of the night elven racial lore though the Darnassian faction is predominantly druidic and Elunite based. But like high elf, night elf is both a race and a faction, and people often refer to the

faction

as much as others refer to the

race

. So certain statements that are true for the race aren't true for the faction and vice versa.

As we are not developers, we dont' determine who is playable nor why, lore as a reason is pointless because as @Ielenia feels and despite your not incorrect conclusions from her, lore can be changed to suit whatever purpose the developers have. I think a lot of people find you insistence that the developers will never do high elvs quite annoying as you aren't one, yet you go to a long extents to tell them why and how they can never be when dno matter how good your reasons, they fully w ell know is not definitive nor up to you. But I wonder if you pick that up from some of them, while others I feel aren't that irritated by you and enjoy the back and forth, hence their dedication to keep this up.

I was speaking in more absolute terms, the lore still determines things, and does drive a lot of content, however gameplay is responsible for a lot of cjamges/ Sp,eto,es ot os easy to tell, but most of us usually guess which is which based on thetype of change and the extent of it. Blood elf horde addition if you were arrround in classic, you would remember was the solution the deves felt would address the horde player number deficiencies, therefore there addition as a playable race on the horde was not lore motivated, but the lore adjusted to make it so. Other interviews around the time had High elves and Goblins originally intended to be the next playable races with Northrend the first expansion, although Outland was never taken off the tables. The decision to go with outland Chris directly said was because it offered something newer and a bigger punchline with what they could do with the lands and features - I believe he mentioned the part sci-fi assets in it too for the Draenei as part of the factors in its afaovur, as they really wanted their first expansion to be a big hit, knowing that a misstep on it could really hurt their huge and growing popularity.

Whether blood elves as a race influenced outland being picked or vice versa, it sovle a lot of gameplay issues, and thus we came to know as we had suspected and was later confirmed concerning Tauren druids, alliance warlocks, night elf female druids and NElf male priests that gameplay was winning over lore decisions for some important things.

For Heaven's sake people, why don't you get that some things are in this game purely for storytelling reasons, to be USED as NPCs to SHOW specific positions which are NOT ALLOWED to be PLAYER CHARACTERS.

High Elves are storytelling TOOLS. That's it.

[Ielenia]

Which is different to Blood Elves leaving all Blood Elves too.

It's not really that different, though. In fact, I can argue that a group of blood elves leaving the rest of the blood elves and the Horde is easier than all the blood elves leaving the Horde, considering all the other blood elves stationed outside blood elf lands. On top of that, I recall we had blood elves dissatisfied with the blood elf leadership as early as TBC.

I distinctly recall seeing some 'street preachers' in Silvermoon speaking against Silvermoon's leadership. Yes, Rommath and his magisters were pretty quick to heavily silencing dissident voices, back then, going so far as to actively mind-control those who openly spoke against the government.

- - - Updated - - -

For Heaven's sake people, why don't you get that some things are in this game purely for storytelling reasons, to be USED as NPCs to SHOW specific positions which are NOT ALLOWED to be PLAYER CHARACTERS.

High Elves are storytelling TOOLS. That's it.

So were Highmountain tauren. Lightforged draenei. Nightborne. Dark Iron dwarves. Etc, etc, etc...

[ravenmoon]

For Heaven's sake people, why don't you get that some things are in this game purely for storytelling reasons, to be USED as NPCs to SHOW specific positions which are NOT ALLOWED to be PLAYER CHARACTERS.

High Elves are storytelling TOOLS. That's it.

You say that with such confidence, but lore effects gameplay and also vice versa, not only that a group can have several motivations for being around that can change or vary over time. Best not to over think or ponder endlessly on the why of high elves.

Blizzard does and continues to do interesting things with races, you may not recall, but at one time the blood elf was exactly one of the interesting things they did with the high elves.

[Timester]

So were Highmountain tauren. Lightforged draenei. Nightborne. Dark Iron dwarves. Etc, etc, etc...

All of them with significant society difference regarding the main races, with hundreds/thousands of years of split. High Elves and Blood Elves difference are just political, not even regarding society.

[Ielenia]

All of them with significant society difference regarding the main races, with hundreds/thousands of years of split. High Elves and Blood Elves difference are just political, not even regarding society.

That's moving the goalposts.

The poster I responded to claimed "high elves are tools, and not allowed to be player characters". I simply offered examples of "tools that were not allowed to be player characters"... which then later were made into player characters.

[Maxilian]

Warcraft Reforged has added different skins for high and blood elf units.



Of note is that high elves can have blue, orange or pink eyes now, while blood elves are always green-eyed.

That's weird, i though the golden eyes was a new thing, as the Sunwell used to be a fully arcane source, and just after rekindling it with Muru essence did it became a light and arcane source of magic

[Timester]

That's moving the goalposts.

The poster I responded to claimed "high elves are tools, and not allowed to be player characters". I simply offered examples of "tools that were not allowed to be player characters"... which then later were made into player characters.

Except they were tools with different cultural and society interpretations. Reason why they were chosen. And the High Elves were the only that Blizzard come out telling "nope, you aren't getting them", not any of the other "tools".

[FlubberPuddy]

That's weird, i though the golden eyes was a new thing, as the Sunwell used to be a fully arcane source, and just after rekindling it with Muru essence did it became a light and arcane source of magic

This is probably how they envision High Elves to be now that the tech has advanced enough and they've gotten more experienced. It's like taking a 2nd stab at a drawing an artist completed 10+ years ago with pencil and erasers vs something like photoshop.

They've retconned so many things, I'm sure they will retcon more later, and would retcon more now if they could.

[DeicideUH]

That's weird, i though the golden eyes was a new thing, as the Sunwell used to be a fully arcane source, and just after rekindling it with Muru essence did it became a light and arcane source of magic

I don't think it's the same kind of golden eyes, these feel more like amber/orange. Old lore had high elves with a variety of eye colors, rather than always blue, so probably WC3 Reforged is bringing back that concept. The new golden eyes are due to the Light of the Sunwell replacing the fel taint.

[Ielenia]

Except they were tools with different cultural and society interpretations.

Which is, again, wholly irrelevant to the point I was replying to. Not to mention that the Highmountain tauren's culture basically is the same as the Kalimdor tauren's culture: same settlement styles, same "political system", same shamanism, etc. They even have a huge totem in their main city like the Kalimdor tauren.

And the High Elves were the only that Blizzard come out telling "nope, you aren't getting them".

This never happened. Stop spreading lies.

[ravenmoon]

Except they were tools with different cultural and society interpretations. Reason why they were chosen. And the High Elves were the only that Blizzard come out telling "nope, you aren't getting them", not any of the other "tools".

Thanks for this. And @Ielenia & @scubi666stacy I was trying to emphasize that the motivations for the tools change and vary. It's quite acceptable to have races and factions created for lore reasons but also other reasons, like each expansion gives you something new and interesting from new lands and new beasts to new versions of humanoids, and this is exactly what blizzard does.

I often think our plethora of sub-races and factions of races are because blizzard is giving us something new each expansion which makes the game look more interesting, it's a tool used as part of their design philosophy, and does not necessarily exist to drive the lore/story forward even though it does or can do.

We have no idea which is the primary motivation (it's not really important to me anyway), but if I were to guess , it's the design philosophy for expansions rather than lore. Races introduced in the RTS series wolud have been primarily lore related, but even they had to fit or serve a purpse conducive to the campaigns you go through.

Lore has never been indepenndent of gameplay even when it as in the driving seat like it was during the RTS series, nor is gameplay independent of lore when it is in the driving seat as it is for the mmo.

[Broflake]

Neutrality means nothing in WoW, so please stop with that nonsense.

Neutrality means quite a bit. For example, the Cenarion circle is a neutral group, which is why it is composed of druids from all races rather than a singular alliance/horde group.

He is firmly Alliance, and the Allerian elves are Alliance.

He is so firmly Alliance that he is at the Sunwell trying to bring blood elves and high elves together. He is so Alliance he has never involved himself in any alliance affairs outside of TBC where both horde and Alliance were working against Kael'thas group.
He hasn't done anything for the Alliance, and never has done such a thing.

You can be neutral, and Alliance too. See Khadgar, Arator, Velen, Malfurion and even Tyrande in Legion.
But ofc, you can be Horde and neutral too. See Thrall, Baine, Liadrin, Halduron, Aethas & Vol'Jin for example.

Clearly you do not seem to understand what I am referring to exactly.
If someone is neutral then they are neutral, and don't pay allegiance to either group.
being neutral for gameplay=/= neutral in story.
Auric is neutral in story, not for gameplay.

In that list, the only one who is neutral is Khadgar, who stated it explicitly that Dalaran would be neutral.

They're Alliance, and neutral toward the Horde.

No, they aren't. Khadgar stated Dalaran is Neutral.
Dalaran high elves live in Dalaran, and are neutral.
Even in WotLK the majority of the high elves you meet are friendly to both, and thus, nueural.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for this. And @Ielenia & @scubi666stacy I was trying to emphasize that the motivations for the tools change and vary. It's quite acceptable to have races and factions created for lore reasons but also other reasons, like each expansion gives you something new and interesting from new lands and new beasts to new versions of humanoids, and this is exactly what blizzard does.

I often think our plethora of sub-races and factions of races are because blizzard is giving us something new each expansion which makes the game look more interesting, it's a tool used as part of their design philosophy, and does not necessarily exist to drive the lore/story forward even though it does or can do.

We have no idea which is the primary motivation (it's not really important to me anyway), but if I were to guess , it's the design philosophy for expansions rather than lore. Races introduced in the RTS series wolud have been primarily lore related, but even they had to fit or serve a purpse conducive to the campaigns you go through.

Lore has never been indepenndent of gameplay even when it as in the driving seat like it was during the RTS series, nor is gameplay independent of lore when it is in the driving seat as it is for the mmo.

Not sure I can agree with such a thing as gameplay must always come before the lore. THe gameplay states what the player can and cannot do. It makes little sense to implement anything if there is no method for the player to enjoy it.
Similarly, if the developers are implemented a race, as is the case with blood elves, it makes absolutely no sense from a design perspective to replicate this appearance for the sake of putting it on the alliance.
For one, it makes the player choices less important, because you're essentially making the same race available on both sides. This is why they alliance received void elves and not high elves. It would double down on an already existing design.
After that, the lore then takes precedence, and while there are high elves who aid the alliance, gameplay prohibits making them playable on the alliance, just as gameplay prohibits ever making Defias humans playable on the Horde.

Then why do you take Elisande's words at face value?

He isn't? I believe the only ones who are, are the ones using it to argue high elves as being different.

Maybe Gul'dan was right all along and we didn't saw Varian begging for his life, huh?

Varian didn't beg for his life. Or did you mean something different?

Maybe you should try not to charge the conversation with such amounts of radicalization. This has never been that serious.

It does not appear as if he is, as he is clearly stating that the words of NPC's are based on where the story wants it to go.

[Aldo Hawk]

Look, this debate is pointless. If they were ever going to add High Elves to the Alliance, the moment of opportunity was when they introduced Allied Races.

Void Elves are not proof of concept which shows High Elves are possible. Void Elves are the replacement they created to give the Alliance some kind of high elf variant when they decided they weren't going to give the Alliance a duplicate of a Horde race. They aren't going to give the Alliance a second thalassian elf, let alone one that looks and acts exactly like the Horde's.

And that was pretty much it once they did that. I know this thread is nearly two years old with thousands of posts but the moment they created Void Elves the debate ended. There no ordeal to stretch out because the answer was given. Void Elves were the answer.

By his own admission debating this is pointless, I don't know what else is to say, but one thing is clear, Kai does not want others to ask for this specific thing.

What a wonderful world.

- - - Updated - - -

They already did that. They just hastily added some shitty bluberry recolor on paint before hand, but they litteraly did give Blood Elves to the Alliance. Same animations, same faces, same emotes, same everything. That Blood Elf players aren't as against those existing as the High Elves prove that all they care is the otuward appearance of their toons and feel threatened by the Alliance getting them in the variant which already is a part of the Alliance and has been for the longest time.

I know that you and other anti-helfers think that Void Elves close the deal, but you are flat out wrong. Blizzard tried to close it, fucked up incredibly badly anbd kept compounding mistakes on those mistakes.

And, quite frankly. I don't give a fuck about some Hordy's victimhood if we get High Elves. Like, at all. What I want is for once for the Alliance to get a race which makes sense lorewise, fit its thematics and has a lot of inhgerent appeal because of its background and potential for new stories. The High Elves creating a new society, distinct and distant from Silvermoon is ten thousands times far more interesting that Blood Elven rejects getting void-tainted and yet still hope that someday Silvermoon will return to the Alliance.

Truths word by word.

I f***ing wish not to see more Blood elf fans like me being so pity about this...

- - - Updated - - -

He isn't? I believe the only ones who are, are the ones using it to argue high elves as being different.

Please revise.

Varian didn't beg for his life. Or did you mean something different?

Yes he did, Gul'dan said so.

It does not appear as if he is, as he is clearly stating that the words of NPC's are based on where the story wants it to go.

Please revise.

- - - Updated - - -

Then please tell me, why did they not added High Elves to the Alliance in Classic?

These are questions for wow devs, not forum dwellers. Unless you are implying that you 100% know the complete answer, in which case you might see yourself as a wow dev.

You are not a wow dev.

[Timester]

This never happened. Stop spreading lies.

No? What do you think the Void Elves, the worst piece of lore in the entire Warcraft history, are? If Blizzard goes as far as that, it's obvious that they simply don't want High Elves. And it's a decision I respect and agree with (minus Void Elves).

Which is, again, wholly irrelevant to the point I was replying to. Not to mention that the Highmountain tauren's culture basically is the same as the Kalimdor tauren's culture: same settlement styles, same "political system", same shamanism, etc. They even have a huge totem in their main city like the Kalimdor tauren.

And that's why, a thousand years old civilization, with their own history, is an allied race of their cousins.

The High Elves are just a bunch of "we don't join the Horde" Blood Elves. Because, yes, the High Elven society decided to change their name, those that rejected it are just political outcasts, ever since Lor'themar got the firm control of Quel'thalas and the cleansing of the Sunwell.

The best part? Everyone seems to forget that Lor'themar Theron is the pinnacle of the High Elven Farstriders, he represents what a High Elf is. Who does he lead? The Blood Elves.

[matrix123mko]

That's weird, i though the golden eyes was a new thing, as the Sunwell used to be a fully arcane source, and just after rekindling it with Muru essence did it became a light and arcane source of magic

These eyes seem to be orange due to pyromancy.

[FlubberPuddy]

And the High Elves were the only that Blizzard come out telling "nope, you aren't getting them", not any of the other "tools".

I don't believe you're ever going to see them respond to whether a certain race will be a potential Allied Race again like how they did with High Elves because of the backlash was just too much. Like they're never gonna single a race out like that anymore.

There's a reason they've not done as many Q/As anymore and also why the Q/As are focused on non-customization content features of a patch/expansion now.

For instance there's probably other races that are wanted by the player population that as you are putting it here "are just tools" (to me I think of say Sethrak, or even Ogres at this point, probably San'layn too) but they're not gonna continue going around with their mantra of "every voice matters" and then try and pick and choose which voices.

There's a reason why Shadowlands is coming up with majorly increased character customization, because the Allied Race system and extra customizations granted (BE Golden Eyes, Orc posture) were the biggest feature hit Blizzard dropped and showed people still want more and more customization so they're capitalizing on it.

[Ielenia]

No? What do you think the Void Elves, the worst piece of lore in the entire Warcraft history, are? If Blizzard goes as far as that, it's obvious that they simply don't want High Elves. And it's a decision I respect and agree with (minus Void Elves).

This is just you making what practically amounts to a wild guess based on nothing but your interpretation of what you see. Nothing but guesswork you are dishonestly trying to pass as "fact": "the High Elves were the only that Blizzard come out telling "nope, you aren't getting them"." is, word for word, what you wrote.

And that's why, a thousand years old civilization, with their own history, is an allied race of their cousins.

The High Elves are just a bunch of "we don't join the Horde" Blood Elves. Because, yes, the High Elven society decided to change their name, those that rejected it are just political outcasts, ever since Lor'themar got the firm control of Quel'thalas and the cleansing of the Sunwell.

The best part? Everyone seems to forget that Lor'themar Theron is the pinnacle of the High Elven Farstriders, he represents what a High Elf is. Who does he lead? The Blood Elves.

And, once again, what you wrote is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter who the leader of the blood elves is. Because the high elves do not follow the blood elf leader who banished them from their homeland nor they have any reason to. It wasn't the high elves who turned their backs to the blood elves, it was the other way around. And it doesn't matter how much "culture" and "age" the highmountain tauren are, because, once more, that is immaterial to the point I originally replied to that you butted into.

[Timester]

This is just you making what practically amounts to a wild guess based on nothing but your interpretation of what you see. Nothing but guesswork you are dishonestly trying to pass as "fact": "the High Elves were the only that Blizzard come out telling "nope, you aren't getting them"." is, word for word, what you wrote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29A65f5TGI

And, once again, what you wrote is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter who the leader of the blood elves is. Because the high elves do not follow the blood elf leader who banished them from their homeland nor they have any reason to. It wasn't the high elves who turned their backs to the blood elves, it was the other way around. And it doesn't matter how much "culture" and "age" the highmountain tauren are, because, once more, that is immaterial to the point I originally replied to that you butted into.

The Blood Elves turned their backs to the High Elves? Headcanon much?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sunwell

And IT does matter the culture and age, that's why the Highmountains Tauren were picked by Blizzard.

[Ielenia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29A65f5TGI

I'm still waiting for your evidence.

Because all you have shown so far is a heavily edited video, in which at no point Ion ever says anything remotely like "nope, you aren't getting them".

But it does show how little Ion understand of what the High Elf supporters want.

The Blood Elves turned their backs to the High Elves? Headcanon much?

Lor'themar banished the high elves from Silvermoon and blood elf lands, condemning the weakened high elves to fend for themselves through Ghostlands (during a time in which the zone hasn't been retaken) and the Plaguelands.

And IT does matter the culture and age, that's why the Highmountains Tauren were picked by Blizzard.

It does not, because, ONCE AGAIN, it is immaterial to the point I was originally replying to. What you are doing here is trying to move the goalposts.