Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

[LEFT]
Ofc I admit it, as we both know, the lore is then written and designed to make the case for playability. So it is no surprise that the lore on high elves is thin, but my suspicion is becaue blizzard really doesn't pay attention to factions or groups that ren't the main focus.

What is notable is that they kept the high elves, and continued using them. I think this back door was intentionally left open as the classic tolekkiin high elf fantasy is not an option they wanted completely removd, just not prominent to give place to the more u nique and original blood elven identity. Still thatwasn't the only motivation.

But if they were leaving themselves space to maybe, one day, make the high elves a playable race on the Alliance, then the perfect moment for that was the addition of allied races at the end of Legion and beginning of BFA. So even if that was their intent, once the opportunity arose to do something with it, not only did they NOT do it, but they went out of their way to rule it out. They even created a brand new variant which essentially ended the debate entirely as they would not have created Void Elves had they ever had any intention of adding high elves to the future. As someone who believes the gameplay reasons for not adding high elves were water-tight before, because of Blood Elves, the addition of Void Elves is the equivalent of putting a second lock on that door.

As we are not developers, we dont' determine who is playable nor why, lore as a reason is pointless because as @Ielenia feels and despite your not incorrect conclusions from her, lore can be changed to suit whatever purpose the developers have. I think a lot of people find you insistence that the developers will never do high elvs quite annoying as you aren't one, yet you go to a long extents to tell them why and how they can never be when dno matter how good your reasons, they fully w ell know is not definitive nor up to you. But I wonder if you pick that up from some of them, while others I feel aren't that irritated by you and enjoy the back and forth, hence their dedication to keep this up.

Mostly because second guessing the developers is a fool's errand. If you want to debate a topic you can only do so with the information you have to hand. Saying 'well they can retcon it' or 'they can change it' is intellectually lazy. At that point debate collapses because it moves from what we know and what we can validate and onto pure wish fulfilment.

At the moment, every single scrap of information and commentary is against the addition of high elves. And this isn't just a one off, it's the cumulative result of fifteen years of developer commentary and storytelling. Of course, there is a difference to retconning a detail from an old manual or a relatively obscure novel based upon the franchise and changing a reality players have lived with for the past decade and a half. The longer an important fact or feature is emphasised in the game or by the developers, the harder it is for them to change course. The high elven exiles fall squarely into this bracket. Time and again we have been told they are a nearly dead, vanished group, the lore rationale that was again cited when they were asked to explain why Void Elves and not High Elves.

Nobody here is a developer. But perhaps the pro High Elf crowd would have more luck using that as a retort if they didn't have a small cottage industry seemingly dedicated to trying to prove the actual developers are wrong. After all, the logical response to a pro High Elfer accusing someone of not being a developer would be to link developer commentary and I guarantee you the response would be a rubbishing of what that dev said.

I was speaking in more absolute terms, the lore still determines things, and does drive a lot of content, however gameplay is responsible for a lot of cjamges/ Sp,eto,es ot os easy to tell, but most of us usually guess which is which based on thetype of change and the extent of it. Blood elf horde addition if you were arrround in classic, you would remember was the solution the deves felt would address the horde player number deficiencies, therefore there addition as a playable race on the horde was not lore motivated, but the lore adjusted to make it so. Other interviews around the time had High elves and Goblins originally intended to be the next playable races with Northrend the first expansion, although Outland was never taken off the tables. The decision to go with outland Chris directly said was because it offered something newer and a bigger punchline with what they could do with the lands and features - I believe he mentioned the part sci-fi assets in it too for the Draenei as part of the factors in its afaovur, as they really wanted their first expansion to be a big hit, knowing that a misstep on it could really hurt their huge and growing popularity.

Whether blood elves as a race influenced outland being picked or vice versa, it sovle a lot of gameplay issues, and thus we came to know as we had suspected and was later confirmed concerning Tauren druids, alliance warlocks, night elf female druids and NElf male priests that gameplay was winning over lore decisions for some important things.

I was around in classic. And yes, I was well aware that one of the reasons Blood Elves were added to the Horde to resolve the faction imbalance of the time. There were several other reasons too

https://twitter.com/Xelnath/status/1088387488429662208

And yes, the lore was adjusted to accommodate it. Previously it had been believed all Blood Elves had gone to Outland, when in actual fact the vast majority remained behind in Silvermoon. But the lore was also a lot more malleable earlier in the game's lifecycle, with most of the retcons dealing with manuals and novels. They could get away with that with ease. It is far harder to retcon something like the high elves now because retconning a novel or manual is one thing, retconning one of the best known stories of the Warcraft franchise is quite another.

As for High Elves being around for a hypothetical northrend expansion I have seen no evidence of such a suggestion, nor has it ever been brought up. If you have an interview or record proving this I would like to see it. I am not saying you are wrong, only that the passage of time means that memories are unreliable. Something that cannot be independently verified and which goes against the grain of what we know cannot be taken as substantive evidence.

Gameplay will always win over lore. And in the early days, lore was adjusted to support these decisions. But as we are now much deeper into the game, with people experiencing the lore as a living thing rather than something to be read up on, such wide ranging retcons as we knew are no longer possible. From changing the circumstances of entire races over a decade ago, a retcon now deals with smaller stuff (such as the origin of the Helm of the Domination) or with character motivations. But retcons of that original scale are no longer really needed, as the game has moved beyond the realms of the RTS. Everything created anew doesn't need to reconcile lore and gameplay as they are designed with both in mind.

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It's not really that different, though. In fact, I can argue that a group of blood elves leaving the rest of the blood elves and the Horde is easier than all the blood elves leaving the Horde, considering all the other blood elves stationed outside blood elf lands. On top of that, I recall we had blood elves dissatisfied with the blood elf leadership as early as TBC.

I distinctly recall seeing some 'street preachers' in Silvermoon speaking against Silvermoon's leadership. Yes, Rommath and his magisters were pretty quick to heavily silencing dissident voices, back then, going so far as to actively mind-control those who openly spoke against the government.

It really is that different. The entire basis of this discussion is the hypothetical circumstance of a Blood Elf defecting from Silvermoon to become a high elf, the sole motivating factor of which is ideological. This is not just betraying the Horde, it is also betraying Silvermoon.

What happened in Mists of Pandaria was not about individual loyalty, it was about the status of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas at a particular moment in time i.e. the Horde collapsing due to Garrosh's supremacism. The motive was not ideological, as it would be a hypothetical defector, it was one of self-preservation.

And yes, there were some street preachers back in TBC. That particular plotline has not been developed since that moment nearly thirteen years ago. In fact, the last word we had on the sympathies of the Blood Elves was Lor'themar worrying they wouldn't rise up against the Warchief. He would only worry about that if he was concerned that a large proportion of the population was on board with Sylvanas' actions up until that point. Remember, it was not Sylvanas' atrocities that turned the majority of the Horde against her, it was the revelation she had no loyalty to the Horde herself.

While it is hypothetically possible for an individual Blood Elf to defect and become a High Elf exile,we also have zero evidence of this ever occurring since the initial schism. There simply will not have been enough to overcome the lore based objection to high elven playability, their incredibly low population.
The only thing that does seem to motivate some Blood Elves to leave Silvermoon is the offer of forbidden power, which is entirely consistent with how they have operated.

[Ielenia]

The motive was not ideological, as it would be a hypothetical defector, it was one of self-preservation.

And would a single blood elf (or a group of blood elves) leaving Silvermoon because they disagree with the government's decisions not be one of "self-preservation"? Especially considering, as I pointed out, the ruling cast of Silvermoon is not against mind-controlling those who show to be dissidents?

[Broflake]

By his own admission debating this is pointless, I don't know what else is to say, but one thing is clear, Kai does not want others to ask for this specific thing.

What a wonderful world.

Is he not stating simply that your request in itself is wrong, not that the act of requesting is wrong? I do not see anyone telling you not to ask, only disagreeing what you are asking for Aldo.

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Truths word by word.

I f***ing wish not to see more Blood elf fans like me being so pity about this...

Look, the fact of the matter is what you are requesting was made available through the Horde. The request is no different than asking for Dranei and Humans to be on the Horde. It just won't happen because those options are available through the alliance. It is simply a matter of game design, and doubling down on an already existing design is not beneficial to the game.

Please revise.

Pardon? You will need to be specific here Aldo. I am unsure what this response means.

Yes he did, Gul'dan said so.

Are you not supporting Obelisk's statement that the words of an NPC are not always necessarily true? It seems unnecessary for you to become sarcastic over a correction.

[QUOTE=Aldo Hawk;51972734
These are questions for wow devs, not forum dwellers. Unless you are implying that you 100% know the complete answer, in which case you might see yourself as a wow dev.

You are not a wow dev.[/QUOTE]
Except for the fact that the WoW devs have been clear on why the alliance did not receive High Elves. They wanted to put a twist on the trope of high elves being allied with humans and dwarves. They liked the work they did with night elves, who are also not typical elves, and wanted to maintain this theme of twisting things. So, blood elves were put on the Horde.
This is not a matter of ambiguity, or a lack of information regarding motives. The information is there and readily available, it is simply whether or not you wish to acknowledge it. As it stands, multiple devs including Chris Metzen provided the reasons.

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And, once again, what you wrote is completely irrelevant.

Why? His argument is rather relevant to the discussion at hand Ielinia.

It doesn't matter who the leader of the blood elves is.

It very much does, because if he had been someone who did not practice traditional culture, it would not be brought up repeatedly. Being a farstrider alone is an indication of him being a traditionalist.

Because the high elves do not follow the blood elf leader who banished them from their homeland nor they have any reason to.

The only high elves who were banished by lor'themar were those of quel'lithien, and he gave them the opportunity to return and in their bitterness, they refused.
The high elves that exist are in self-imposed exile.
This is why Auric Sunchaser and the high elf pilgrims are present at the Sunwell. They aren't banished.
[QUOTE=Ielenia;51973175] It wasn't the high elves who turned their backs to the blood elves, it was the other way around. /QUOTE]

The narrative you are pushing did not occur. The high elves simply did not come to help the blood elves, and then judged them after the choices they made. Vereesa herself acknowledged she would become a blood elf were it not for her children, and that the reason she did not come back to help them was because she was raising her children.
Whatever the reasons were, the high elves made a choice to leave the blood elves to fight their battles on their own.

This is what makes the quel'lithien high elves different. At some point, those high elves called themselves blood elves, because they stated explicitly they were there to reclaim the kingdom. The other high elves outside of this group never came to assist the kingdom of quel'thalas after its fall.

[Ielenia]

Why? His argument is rather relevant to the discussion at hand Ielinia.

Go read what the poster I originally responded to said: "tools that are not meant to be playable characters". Nothing about history, nothing about culture. It was a simple claim: "they are tools, nothing more".

It very much does,

It doesn't, because as I explained in the very next sentence, the high elves do not follow the blood elf's leadership anymore, ever since they were kicked out.

The only high elves who were banished by lor'themar were those of quel'lithien, and he gave them the opportunity to return and in their bitterness, they refused.
The high elves that exist are in self-imposed exile.

Lor'themar banished all that opposed the practice they dubbed as "mana vampirism".

The narrative you are pushing did not occur. The high elves simply did not come to help the blood elves,

The high elves not choose to leave Silvermoon. They were kicked out. And as for your claim of "did not come to help the blood elves", that is objectively false. The Silver Covenant was quick to come to the blood elves' aid when the Amani trolls, boosted by the Zandalari, were threatening Silvermoon, for example.

[Aldo Hawk]

Is he not stating simply that your request in itself is wrong, not that the act of requesting is wrong? I do not see anyone telling you not to ask, only disagreeing what you are asking for Aldo.

I don't believe in fairytales.

Look, the fact of the matter is what you are requesting was made available through the Horde. The request is no different than asking for Dranei and Humans to be on the Horde. It just won't happen because those options are available through the alliance. It is simply a matter of game design, and doubling down on an already existing design is not beneficial to the game.

It's not the case, it exists and is not available, hence your point is very moot, not to say it's more near to being invalid than anything else.

Pardon? You will need to be specific here Aldo. I am unsure what this response means.

It's clear, revise twice before answering please.

Are you not supporting Obelisk's statement that the words of an NPC are not always necessarily true? It seems unnecessary for you to become sarcastic over a correction.

Please revise.

Except for the fact that the WoW devs have been clear on why the alliance did not receive High Elves. They wanted to put a twist on the trope of high elves being allied with humans and dwarves. They liked the work they did with night elves, who are also not typical elves, and wanted to maintain this theme of twisting things. So, blood elves were put on the Horde.
This is not a matter of ambiguity, or a lack of information regarding motives. The information is there and readily available, it is simply whether or not you wish to acknowledge it. As it stands, multiple devs including Chris Metzen provided the reasons

Lore is not a problem.

[DeicideUH]

I wish you a high elfmas.
I wish you a high elfmas.
I wish you a high elfmas.
And a happy new AR.

[Broflake]

I don't believe in fairytales.

I am sorry but this response does not make sense to me. Could you clarify?

It's not the case, it exists and is not available, hence your point is very moot, not to say it's more near to being invalid than anything else.

It does exist, and it is available on the Horde.
You are correct in saying it is not available on the Alliance.
Otherwise, you are being in denial of a fact Aldo.


It's clear, revise twice before answering please.

Please revise.

Aldo, if you are not going to provide an honest discussion then it might be best you distance yourself from the conversation. These responses do not contribute anything, and only serve to distract.

Lore is not a problem.

You're right, it is a matter of game design, and the developers made it quite clear.
Once in why they went void elf over high elf.
Again when Ion stated if you want to be a fair skinned blue eyed elf, you'd need to go Horde.
Lore does not matter, but the game design does.
it is my hope you will provide a more serious response.

Go read what the poster I originally responded to said: "tools that are not meant to be playable characters". Nothing about history, nothing about culture. It was a simple claim: "they are tools, nothing more".

I think you are misunderstanding perhaps. Is there a difference in some aspects? yes.
It differs from how we, theplayer see them, and how Blizzard sees them.
Blizzard sees them as a method of pushing the lore, not being a part of the player's experience, primarily because they did so through the blood elves.

It doesn't, because as I explained in the very next sentence, the high elves do not follow the blood elf's leadership anymore, ever since they were kicked out.

They were not kicked out dude. The only high elves kicked were quel'lithien, and they are dead. Every other high elf lives in self imposted exile.

Lor'themar banished all that opposed the practice they dubbed as "mana vampirism".

Except for the fact that the high elves such as Auric, and Vereesa, were never exiled officially. It was stated explicitly in Shadows of the Sun what high elves were exiled. It is also stated by the devs that the only high elves are those who simply never returned home.
Let alone if they were exiled, why is Auric and his group allowed at the sunwell?
Why was Alleria allowed back to the Sunwell when she is not even a high elf?.
The only high elves viewed poorly were those of the Silver Covenant who took an offensive stance to their own people in WotLK.

The high elves not choose to leave Silvermoon. They were kicked out. And as for your claim of "did not come to help the blood elves", that is objectively false. The Silver Covenant was quick to come to the blood elves' aid when the Amani trolls, boosted by the Zandalari, were threatening Silvermoon, for example.

1. Quel'lithien high elves are the only ones stated in lore to have been kicked out of Silvermoon. Otherwise, you would not have had high elves at the sunwell during WotLK, or seen Alleria even be allowed to visit the Sunwell.
Why? Neither ALleria nor Auric were present for the exile, why would they be exiled when **they were not part of the group that caused the schsm?**. Your argument is simply not supported dude.
As for the Amani trolls.

Halduron invited them, they did not come until they were asked.
Funny enough, Vereesa calls silvermoon her home, before promptly butchering her people at Jaina's order in MoP.

[Ielenia]

I think you are misunderstanding perhaps. Is there a difference in some aspects? yes.
It differs from how we, theplayer see them, and how Blizzard sees them.
Blizzard sees them as a method of pushing the lore, not being a part of the player's experience, primarily because they did so through the blood elves.

It's irrelevant. Everything is a "method of pushing the lore". It doesn't preclude said "method" from being a playable race, because playable races can, and were used as a "method of pushing the lore".

They were not kicked out dude. The only high elves kicked were quel'lithien, and they are dead. Every other high elf lives in self imposted exile.

No. Lor'themar banished all high elves from Silvermoon that did not accept the "new order" of draining mana from living beings. That included elves within AND outside Silvermoon at the time. Because it would make no sense otherwise: "these elves that were here when we made the edict? They're banished forever. But you who weren't in Silvermoon at the time? You're good to return home. You're not banished, despite sharing the exact same opinion that got those other elves banished."

Evidence? A snippet from a conversation between Halduron and a Silvermoon messenger, regarding Vereesa:
"Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands."

Except for the fact that the high elves such as Auric, and Vereesa, were never exiled officially. It was stated explicitly in Shadows of the Sun what high elves were exiled. It is also stated by the devs that the only high elves are those who simply never returned home.

You mean... all the high elves. Because the ones that did return became blood elves.

Why was Alleria allowed back to the Sunwell when she is not even a high elf?.

So... you're saying void elves are not high elves? Is that it?

1. Quel'lithien high elves are the only ones stated in lore to have been kicked out of Silvermoon.

Quel'lithien was where the high elves that were living in Silvermoon at the time relocated to after being banished. Those elves living elsewhere did not have to relocate out to the Quel'lithien because they were already living elsewhere. But the edict was against ALL high elves that refused to follow the new order.

Why? Neither ALleria nor Auric were present for the exile, why would they be exiled when **they were not part of the group that caused the schsm?**. Your argument is simply not supported dude.

If they share the same opinion regarding "mana vampirism", yes, they would be banished as well. You do not have to live in a given location to be banished from said location. Banishment also means being denied entrance.

As for the Amani trolls.

Halduron invited them, they did not come until they were asked.

Irrelevant. The important matter is that she came. If she did not care for Silvermoon and did not want to help, she would not have come.

Funny enough, Vereesa calls silvermoon her home, before promptly butchering her people at Jaina's order in MoP.

Silvermoon is her home. She never said the blood elves are her people, so I don't see the issue, there.

EDIT: As for Auric, he's there at the Sunwell, but he is not exactly welcomed, there. Read upon the Quel'Delar questline for non-blood elf players and you'll find out.

[Aldo Hawk]

I am sorry but this response does not make sense to me. Could you clarify?


It does exist, and it is available on the Horde.
You are correct in saying it is not available on the Alliance.
Otherwise, you are being in denial of a fact Aldo.


It's clear, revise twice before answering please.


Aldo, if you are not going to provide an honest discussion then it might be best you distance yourself from the conversation. These responses do not contribute anything, and only serve to distract.


You're right, it is a matter of game design, and the developers made it quite clear.
Once in why they went void elf over high elf.
Again when Ion stated if you want to be a fair skinned blue eyed elf, you'd need to go Horde.
Lore does not matter, but the game design does.
it is my hope you will provide a more serious response.

I'm sorry if you consider that your posts directed to me require more seriousness, I have been clear and this is the 3rd response in a row, and I don't want to have the inbox filled with spam of someone being forcefully conflictive. That's the reason I state that you should kindly revise what you answer to since your questions do not apply and are pretty charged.

Merry christmas, I will still be around here despite your invitation to leave, sorry Broflake.

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No? What do you think the Void Elves, the worst piece of lore in the entire Warcraft history, are? If Blizzard goes as far as that, it's obvious that they simply don't want High Elves. And it's a decision I respect and agree with (minus Void Elves).



And that's why, a thousand years old civilization, with their own history, is an allied race of their cousins.

The High Elves are just a bunch of "we don't join the Horde" Blood Elves. Because, yes, the High Elven society decided to change their name, those that rejected it are just political outcasts, ever since Lor'themar got the firm control of Quel'thalas and the cleansing of the Sunwell.

The best part? Everyone seems to forget that Lor'themar Theron is the pinnacle of the High Elven Farstriders, he represents what a High Elf is. Who does he lead? The Blood Elves.

High elves are a more interesting version of the Pandaren 'neutrality'. Pandaren are just a carbon copy on both factions.

[manypillars]

There's no longer a need to do something like another Lightforged Draenei or Highmountain Tauren or Void Elf or Mag'har Orc. They can simply increase the customizations of these existing races with the systems they have in place now.

Let me be an ass for a second- there was never any need to do allied races at all. Players would likely have been thrilled to be able to unlock cosmetic options and heritage armor for their already existing characters that they may have invested a decade or more into by hitting exalted with new factions and completing quest lines. Now that with the new universal starting zone in Shadowlands, even a new race given to us right out of the box will likely not have its own racial starting zone, so allied races don't even save that part of development. Highmountain, Lightforged, Mag'har, and Dark Iron should never have been races. It wouldn't be hard to sell me on giving Nightfallen customization to Night Elves too.

[FlubberPuddy]

Let me be an ass for a second- there was never any need to do allied races at all. Players would likely have been thrilled to be able to unlock cosmetic options and heritage armor for their already existing characters that they may have invested a decade or more into by hitting exalted with new factions and completing quest lines. Now that with the new universal starting zone in Shadowlands, even a new race given to us right out of the box will likely not have its own racial starting zone, so allied races don't even save that part of development. Highmountain, Lightforged, Mag'har, and Dark Iron should never have been races. It wouldn't be hard to sell me on giving Nightfallen customization to Night Elves too.

I don't think you're being an ass at all. There's plenty of times where Blizzard believes they "know better/know cooler" than what players want. Allied Races was one of those times. Garrisons was another.

They're backpedaling of now offering increased customizations in Shadowlands shows they were wrong as they're now going to implement a system that players have talked for decades (they even acknowledge this feature has been asked for, for a long while).

They're attempt to still figure out how to do Player Housing is another show of how wrong they were thinking they "knew better" on how to do Player Housing over the players who asked for that feature.

It's been shown that they've now sent two player surveys within BfA. Hopefully this means they're going to take in player feedback more closely rather than with a mindset of, "our position is always better."

[manypillars]

I'm not sure it's so much "knows better" that it is about metrics. Allied races, like pathfinder, push players to do content they otherwise would not have bothered with or continued to grind well past its welcome by taking something you were normally just given and putting it behind a grind. Aside from the fact that a lot of them should have just been customizations, there's a limit on how many you can be added before it gets overwhelming/insane/ridiculous. Is it even a good idea to continue added racelets at the rate we've seen? We're going to be at ten in 8.3, right? That's just in two expansions.

Let me add Mecha Gnomes to the list of shouldn't be a race- I think they would have been much more welcome as a customization option.

[Broflake]

It's irrelevant. Everything is a "method of pushing the lore". It doesn't preclude said "method" from being a playable race, because playable races can, and were used as a "method of pushing the lore".

It largely is relevant dude. The defias humans? Tools to push the lore.
Jinyu? Same thing.
Ankoan and Gilgoblins?
High elves?

All to push the story, not to be a part of the player experience.

No. Lor'themar banished all high elves from Silvermoon that did not accept the "new order" of draining mana from living beings. That included elves within AND outside Silvermoon at the time. Because it would make no sense otherwise: "these elves that were here when we made the edict? They're banished forever. But you who weren't in Silvermoon at the time? You're good to return home. You're not banished, despite sharing the exact same opinion that got those other elves banished."

Yes...because it makes perfect sense for Lor'themar to banish all the high elves, including alleria and Auric sunchaser who were not present for the schism as they had gone beyond the dark portal during the second great war.
Let alone shadows of the sun make it rather clear only the quel'lithien high elves were banished.
This was further covered in the QnA where Ion comments about the high elves not having a hub, and that the only ones existing are those who never went home.

Evidence? A snippet from a conversation between Halduron and a Silvermoon messenger, regarding Vereesa:
"Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands."

The answer is two fold.
1. Vereesa leads a militant high elf group that opposes the blood elves in a hostile way. Ergo, was exiled.
She was exiled post facto because the Vereesa

was never present for the schism nor participated in causing it.
In fact, Vereesa is on record as stating she would have been a blood elf because she agreed with their principles.

You mean... all the high elves. Because the ones that did return became blood elves.

Sorry this response makes little sense to me. It does not contradict my statement.
The high elves who exist are those who CHOSE never to return home. They are not banished for it.
You can't be banished for causing a schism in silvermoon if you were never present for it.
That was literally the reason why the schism occurred. he banished the high elves causing a schism in Silvermoon, the quel'lithien high elves.
How would high elves who were never there, be banished?
The quel'danil high elves never were present for the schism.
neither were the allerian stronghold high elves.
Nor was alleria.

NONE of them are considered exiles, because they werent a part of the schism.

So... you're saying void elves are not high elves? Is that it?

Don't be silly, you understood the point of the statement.
If ALL high elves were banished, then that banishment would have applied even after ALleria stopped being a high elf.
On the other hand, not only was she allowed to come to SIlvermoon for political reasons, she was even called a child of quel'thalas.
In fact, during shadows of the sun, Lor'themar goes out of his way to offer the quel'lithien high elves an opprtunity for aid and to return.
Ergo, their banishment was something rescinded. So...the banishment argument doesn't work at all.

Quel'lithien was where the high elves that were living in Silvermoon at the time relocated to after being banished. Those elves living elsewhere did not have to relocate out to the Quel'lithien because they were already living elsewhere. But the edict was against ALL high elves that refused to follow the new order.

Which were only the quel'lithien high elves who stated it specifically, because they were causing a schism in blood elf society and fought against the new ways.
Quel'danil high elves were NOT present for it.
Vereesa was NOT present for it.
Alleria was NOT present.
Auric Sunchaser was NOT present.

So why would they all be banished if they were not at all responsible for the schism?
Just saying, your argument makes no sense, and is not supported at all by the lore.

If they share the same opinion regarding "mana vampirism", yes, they would be banished as well. You do not have to live in a given location to be banished from said location. Banishment also means being denied entrance.

Except for the fact that Auric Sunchaser did not share the notion of mana vampirism but oh look he is present at the sunwell in WotLK triyng to bring high elves and blood elves together.
Alleria would not have shared the same view but oh look she was allowed post Legion.

1. The banishment only applied to mana vamprism, which was ended in TBC. Why would lor'themar keep them banished afterwards?
2. He didn't, as seen in Shadows of the Sun.
3. It only applied to those who caused the schism, the quel'lithien high elves.
4. Those high elves died, and refused Lor'themars aid

If Lor'themar wanted to bring back the quel'lithien high elves, the ones who instigated the schism, why would he not try to bring back all other high elves if they were exiled too? Simple.

Because they weren't banished.

Irrelevant. The important matter is that she came. If she did not care for Silvermoon and did not want to help, she would not have come.

Relevant.
You can't say that the Silver Covenant quickly came to the aid of Silvermoon. They didn't, they had to be asked to come assist. They weren't going to do so otherwise.

Silvermoon is her home. She never said the blood elves are her people, so I don't see the issue, there.

Yes...yes she has actually.
She considers the blood elves her people in the Three Sisters.
She admits she would have been a blood elf in her interim story as well.
To suggest she does not see them as her people is false.

EDIT: As for Auric, he's there at the Sunwell, but he is not exactly welcomed, there. Read upon the Quel'Delar questline for non-blood elf players and you'll find out.

I am familiar with it, and to be blunt, it is probably not his canon response. For several reasons.
Lor'themar's view on the high elves is sympathetic in Shadows of the Sun.
It makes little sense for him to hold animosity afterwards, then suddenly go back to sympathetic in Cata.
Heck, he makes it clear he is about protecting his people, even those who are biologically not that way anymore as seen in Alleria.
Who according to you, he banished during WC3.
While she was off world.
And fighting for her people.

<________<

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry if you consider that your posts directed to me require more seriousness, I have been clear and this is the 3rd response in a row, and I don't want to have the inbox filled with spam of someone being forcefully conflictive. That's the reason I state that you should kindly revise what you answer to since your questions do not apply and are pretty charged.

I am sorry Aldo you have not been clear on the matter, so when you have the opportunity, do explain. Otherwise, there isn't really a discussion to be had here, and that is unfortunate.

High elves are a more interesting version of the Pandaren 'neutrality'. Pandaren are just a carbon copy on both factions.

High elves are literally a carbon copy of blood elves. So how are they more interesting when this would make them the exact same thing?

[Ielenia]

It largely is relevant dude. The defias humans? Tools to push the lore.
Jinyu? Same thing.
Ankoan and Gilgoblins?
High elves?

All to push the story, not to be a part of the player experience.

Zandalari? Used to push the lore for several expansions. Never meant to be a part of the player experience.
Dark Iron? Used to push the lore for several expansions. Never meant to be a part of the player experience.

Both are now playable races.

Yes...because it makes perfect sense for Lor'themar to banish all the high elves, including alleria and Auric sunchaser who were not present for the schism as they had gone beyond the dark portal during the second great war.

Yes. It does make sense. Because that's what logic dictates. If you're banishing a group of people based on their ideology (in this case, refusal to drain mana from living beings), on the basis that said ideology would lead to a divided city, then it is illogical to allow other members of said group into your city simply because those particular members weren't there when the banishment happened.

The answer is two fold.
1. Vereesa leads a militant high elf group that opposes the blood elves in a hostile way. Ergo, was exiled.
She was exiled post facto because the Vereesa

This is false. She was banished alongside all the high elves within Silvermoon because she, just like those high elves, opposed the "mana vampirism" practice. The reason the Silver Covenant opposes the blood elves is because of the b'elves treatment of the high elves.

was never present for the schism nor participated in causing it.

Irrelevant. Invoking Godwin's Law here, for the sake of an analogy, it's like as if Spain decided to banish all Nazi from the country, on the basis that they would cause a schism within the society, but then allow Nazi from OTHER countries to enter and live in Spain freely.

In fact, Vereesa is on record as stating she would have been a blood elf because she agreed with their principles.

False. It is never stated she "agreed with the principles", she was just eager to get rid of the pains of withdrawal. But regardless, the fact remains that she is an exile, and the only instance we know of blood elves exiling high elves is the "mana vampirism" controversy.

Don't be silly, you understood the point of the statement.
If ALL high elves were banished, then that banishment would have applied even after ALleria stopped being a high elf.
On the other hand, not only was she allowed to come to SIlvermoon for political reasons, she was even called a child of quel'thalas.
In fact, during shadows of the sun, Lor'themar goes out of his way to offer the quel'lithien high elves an opprtunity for aid and to return.
Ergo, their banishment was something rescinded. So...the banishment argument doesn't work at all.

Alleria was never banished because, unlike the high elves in Azeroth and Outland, she never made the choice of using or not using 'mana vampirism', nor was she aware of it until Legion. Plus she was still regarded as a hero, due to her past actions in the wars.

Which were only the quel'lithien high elves who stated it specifically, because they were causing a schism in blood elf society and fought against the new ways.
Quel'danil high elves were NOT present for it.
Vereesa was NOT present for it.
Alleria was NOT present.
Auric Sunchaser was NOT present.

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant. Again, you don't need to actually be within Silvermoon to be banished from Silvermoon.

So why would they all be banished if they were not at all responsible for the schism?
Just saying, your argument makes no sense, and is not supported at all by the lore.

Because they would cause a schism if they were to return to Silvermoon. It's logic 101.

Except for the fact that Auric Sunchaser did not share the notion of mana vampirism but oh look he is present at the sunwell in WotLK triyng to bring high elves and blood elves together.
Alleria would not have shared the same view but oh look she was allowed post Legion.

Because Lor'themar decided to allow high elves to make pilgrimages to the Sunwell after TBC and he was chosen as the liason. That's why.

1. The banishment only applied to mana vamprism, which was ended in TBC. Why would lor'themar keep them banished afterwards?

Because the banishment and subsequent treatment of the high elves from the blood elves caused a rift between the two groups that would cause an even bigger schism within Silvermoon if they were allowed back inside. Especially since many, if not the majority of the high elves sided with the Alliance.

3. It only applied to those who caused the schism, the quel'lithien high elves.

In other words: all high elves who refused the practice of mana vampirism, regardless if they were inside or outside Silvermoon.

Relevant.
You can't say that the Silver Covenant quickly came to the aid of Silvermoon. They didn't, they had to be asked to come assist. They weren't going to do so otherwise.

No, it is irrelevant. If the Silver Covenant did not want to help Silvermoon, they simply wouldn't come. Period. And also: the blood elf military stationed at Zul'Aman has not started fighting the trolls yet, but the Silver Covenant was already there, which means that they arrived before the fight began, which means they came quick.

Yes...yes she has actually.
She considers the blood elves her people in the Three Sisters.

At no point she calls the blood elves "her people" in the comic. She always says "the blood elves", never "my kin" or "us" or anything like that.

[Broflake]

Zandalari? Used to push the lore for several expansions. Never meant to be a part of the player experience.
Dark Iron? Used to push the lore for several expansions. Never meant to be a part of the player experience.

Both are now playable races.

Neither of which were already playable either. /shrug

Yes. It does make sense. Because that's what logic dictates. If you're banishing a group of people based on their ideology (in this case, refusal to drain mana from living beings), on the basis that said ideology would lead to a divided city, then it is illogical to allow other members of said group into your city simply because those particular members weren't there when the banishment happened.

uh...no...it doesn't make any sense at all. Simply because neither Auric or Alleria provided their views on how they felt about it, and the opportunity to do so passed as they are present after the sunwell restoration.
You know...after mana vampirism ceased and Lor'themar began making amends. So...no...it never made sense, and you keep trying to push it when it doesn't.
You banish those responsible and call it a day.

This is false. She was banished alongside all the high elves within Silvermoon because she, just like those high elves, opposed the "mana vampirism" practice. The reason the Silver Covenant opposes the blood elves is because of the b'elves treatment of the high elves.

This is head canon on your part.
Vereesa stated she believed in the blood elf ideals and would have been one had it not been for her children. So your suggestion she was opposed to mana vampirism does not apply in anyway.
Secondly, the silver covenant opposed the blood elves being in Dalaran because they did not agree with the Blood elves being a part of the Horde. They had no opinion about the matter of how the quel'lithien high elves behaved.

Irrelevant. Invoking Godwin's Law here, for the sake of an analogy, it's like as if Spain decided to banish all Nazi from the country, on the basis that they would cause a schism within the society, but then allow Nazi from OTHER countries to enter and live in Spain freely.

Very relevant. You cannot banish people who were not a part of the matter, and Lor'themar never did. Hence, why he only ever visited the quel'lithien high elves, the ones responsible for the schism as stated in Shadows of the Sun. There were no other high elves per the story who were banished.

False. It is never stated she "agreed with the principles", she was just eager to get rid of the pains of withdrawal. But regardless, the fact remains that she is an exile, and the only instance we know of blood elves exiling high elves is the "mana vampirism" controversy.

She was so eager to get rid of the pains of withdrawal that in Night of the Dragon it is stated that Rhonin and her children are the reason she did not. That's implying her sympathies lady with the blood elf people.
She isn't an exile, and is never stated as such until AFTER she forms the Silver covenant against the Sunreavers.

Alleria was never banished because, unlike the high elves in Azeroth and Outland, she never made the choice of using or not using 'mana vampirism', nor was she aware of it until Legion. Plus she was still regarded as a hero, due to her past actions in the wars.

You mean like Auric Sunchaser and Vereesa and Valeera?
Let alone that the hero status is nothing, because the quel'lithine high elves stated they were there for saving Quel'thalas and were pissed they were treated poorly.
Lor'themar states explicitly "regardless of what ALleria has become she is a daughter of quel'thalas."
It has nothing to do with hero status, and I am unsure where people get this narrative given the blood elves have plenty to draw upon from the high elves themselves.

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant. Again, you don't need to actually be within Silvermoon to be banished from Silvermoon.

Relevant, relevant, relevant, and relevant.
Again, you need to be a part of the group who was banished.
Which the quel'danil, allerians tronghold, and Dalaran high elves were not a part of at all.
You keep trying to push this notion of banishment but it does not apply.
No high elves are banished because the matter which would have them banished does not exist any longer and has been acknowledged as such by Lor'themar.

Because they would cause a schism if they were to return to Silvermoon. It's logic 101.

That is headcanon on your part, there was no way the characters would know.
Shadows of the Sun makes it clear the only exiles were those Lor'themar cast out and were living in quel'lithien.

Because Lor'themar decided to allow high elves to make pilgrimages to the Sunwell after TBC and he was chosen as the liason. That's why.

Lor'themar lets them because it is their birth right and no other reason as has been stated as such since Shadows of the Sun and onwards.
Auric sunchaser goes there to represent high elves to unite them, and even states it is time to avenge the lands of quel'thalas as children of Silvermoon.

Because the banishment and subsequent treatment of the high elves from the blood elves caused a rift between the two groups that would cause an even bigger schism within Silvermoon if they were allowed back inside. Especially since many, if not the majority of the high elves sided with the Alliance.

Except for the fact that the treatment of the high elves by the blood elves is not the cited reason.
Let alone that the high elves are stated explicitly as being scattered and not having a singular creed. So how can they cause such a schism if the high elf people have never agreed within themselves on how they view things?
The only group that ever did was the SIlver covenant, and it was explicitly because they did not trust the blood elves who are now a part of the Horde.
There is little indication that the blood elves ever went out of their way to attack high elves or abuse them. Ironically enough, this only became a major thing in MoP where the SC took the offensive against the blood elves for the actions of a traitor.
Ironic no?

In other words: all high elves who refused the practice of mana vampirism, regardless if they were inside or outside Silvermoon.

Don't straw man, you know exactly what I was referring to, and it is stated explicitly by Priestess Aurora that the quel'lithien high elves were the ones who did the refusing. Other high elves were never present, and so it makes little sense to banish people whose views you do not know.

No, it is irrelevant. If the Silver Covenant did not want to help Silvermoon, they simply wouldn't come. Period. And also: the blood elf military stationed at Zul'Aman has not started fighting the trolls yet, but the Silver Covenant was already there, which means that they arrived before the fight began, which means they came quick.

When did the Silver covenant come?
once they were invited.
Did they come before hand? Nope.
They didn't come when the ghostlands needed to be held. (Shadows of the Sun states the blood elves were forced to rely ont he forsaken)
They didn't come when the kingdom was in trouble either.
All we have is what happened, and fact of the matter is that the SC simply did not come until they were asked to do so.

At no point she calls the blood elves "her people" in the comic. She always says "the blood elves", never "my kin" or "us" or anything like that.

Silvermoon is my home.
Who calls silvermoon home as well?
The blood elves.

Who does she think can redeem themselves? The blood elves.
Seems odd that she is so invested in what the blood elves do if she doesn't consider them her people.
I guess Valeera does not see the blood elf as her people either, because she works for Anduin.

[Ielenia]

Neither of which were already playable either. /shrug

Irrelevant. The main argument is: "they are tools to drive the lore forward, nothing more. They are not meant to be playable races." And I've given two solid examples that completely destroy that argument.

You banish those responsible and call it a day.

I'm going on record to say that it's a good thing you're not a ruler of anything, because your skills as a ruler suck if you think that's all you have to do. Think about it: why did Lor'themar banishes those high elves? To avoid having to rule a "divided nation". So if he banned those high elves to keep his nation from fragmenting, why would he allow his society to fragment again by allowing other "non-mana vampire" elves in?

It. Makes. No. Sense.

This is head canon on your part.
Vereesa stated she believed in the blood elf ideals and would have been one had it not been for her children. So your suggestion she was opposed to mana vampirism does not apply in anyway.

"This is headcanon on your part". Proceeds to write his own headcanon.

Vereesa never expressed belief in the blood elf ideals. She simply considered the idea because of how the addiction was affecting her.

Secondly, the silver covenant opposed the blood elves being in Dalaran because they did not agree with the Blood elves being a part of the Horde. They had no opinion about the matter of how the quel'lithien high elves behaved.

"The Silver Covenant was created by Vereesa Windrunner as a precaution against possible treachery from the Sunreavers."

Very relevant. You cannot banish people who were not a part of the matter,

Yes, you can. Once you banished a group, all those who belong to said group are also banished, regardless if they were present at the location at the time of banishment or not.

She was so eager to get rid of the pains of withdrawal that in Night of the Dragon it is stated that Rhonin and her children are the reason she did not. That's implying her sympathies lady with the blood elf people.

No, it does not.

She isn't an exile, and is never stated as such until AFTER she forms the Silver covenant against the Sunreavers.

The fact she was only called an exile, that we can see, only AFTER the Silver the Silver Covenant was formed is immaterial, unless you can prove that her exile was self-imposed and not by edict of Lor'themar.

Let alone that the hero status is nothing, because the quel'lithine high elves stated they were there for saving Quel'thalas and were pissed they were treated poorly.
Lor'themar states explicitly "regardless of what ALleria has become she is a daughter of quel'thalas."
It has nothing to do with hero status, and I am unsure where people get this narrative given the blood elves have plenty to draw upon from the high elves themselves.

The bolded line alone disproves your entire argument. If it was Alleria, but any other high elf coming to Lor'themar, I honestly doubt he'd have offered anywhere NEAR the same courtesy.

Again, you need to be a part of the group who was banished.

Which all the high elves who refused to drain mana from living beings were, regardless if they were living in Silvermoon or not.

That is headcanon on your part, there was no way the characters would know.
Shadows of the Sun makes it clear the only exiles were those Lor'themar cast out and were living in quel'lithien.

Again, it's logic 101. If you banished a group of people from your nation because of their ideology because it would lead to a 'nation divided', why would you allow other members of said group of people, sharing the same ideology, to enter Silvermoon? And your interpretation of the Shadows of the Sun is wrong. Quel'Lithien elves are not all the elves Lor'themar banished. It's only the elves that were currently living in Silvermoon when the edict happened.

Except for the fact that the treatment of the high elves by the blood elves is not the cited reason.

Cite the reason, then. Give me the quote.

There is little indication that the blood elves ever went out of their way to attack high elves or abuse them. Ironically enough, this only became a major thing in MoP where the SC took the offensive against the blood elves for the actions of a traitor.
Ironic no?

Other than kicking all high elves currently living in Silvermoon from the comfort of their homes, and basically leave them out to die by throwing them into lands infested with Scourge minions, having to fight them in their weakened state.

Don't straw man, you know exactly what I was referring to, and it is stated explicitly by Priestess Aurora that the quel'lithien high elves were the ones who did the refusing. Other high elves were never present, and so it makes little sense to banish people whose views you do not know.

No, the ones in Quel'Lithien were only those who were present in the city, not all the banished elves. And Lor'themar banished all those who shared the same ideology, regardless if they were in the city at the time or not. And it's easy to figure out who's who, too. Just ask them to drain mana from a living being.

When did the Silver covenant come?
once they were invited.
Did they come before hand? Nope.

Ok. Then prove that the Silver Covenant was aware of the Zul'Aman situation prior to Halduron's invite, and had no intention to come prior to the invitation.

They didn't come when the ghostlands needed to be held.

The Silver Covenant did not exist until Wrath, when the Sunreavers were allowed into Dalaran.

Silvermoon is my home.
Who calls silvermoon home as well?
The blood elves.

The surviving humans from Lordaeron also call Lordaeron their homes. The point is: calling a location "their home" does not mean you also call the people living there "your people".

Who does she think can redeem themselves? The blood elves.
Seems odd that she is so invested in what the blood elves do if she doesn't consider them her people.

Anduin was also very invested in redeeming the Horde. But orcs, tauren, blood elves, etc, aren't his people, are they?

[ravenmoon]

High elves are literally a carbon copy of blood elves. So how are they more interesting when this would make them the exact same thing?

Because of the long and extensive lore of politics for that race on both factions, compared to Pandaren, who have one opening experience with the end bit briefly showing how one group picks its faction and after that nothing much in terms of hostility, identity, definition.

The Thalassians have different sets and colour schemes not to mention extensive lore of their race on both factions during wow's lifetime, I would say that qualifies as much more interesting.

[Aldo Hawk]

Because of the long and extensive lore of politics for that race on both factions, compared to Pandaren, who have one opening experience with the end bit briefly showing how one group picks its faction and after that nothing much in terms of hostility, identity, definition.

The Thalassians have different sets and colour schemes not to mention extensive lore of their race on both factions during wow's lifetime, I would say that qualifies as much more interesting.

Yeah, pretty much, when someone wants to understand, things go pretty well.

I mean, it was easy to understand all along to anybody slightly interested in the topic, but hey.

You may also add that it would come as an Allied race, and not simply a neutral one. With different racials, aesthetics, voices, class-availability, mount, heritage armor, blah blah blah...

[Outer Heaven]

They should honestly just somehow port this model to World of Warcraft for Alliance High Elves.

Nah, doesn't look good at all. Just use the Blood Elf model.

Honestly most of WC3 Reforged's art looks like an abortion, probably cause the game wasn't even made by Blizzard.

[Obelisk Kai]

Nah, doesn't look good at all. Just use the Blood Elf model.

Honestly most of WC3 Reforged's art looks like an abortion, probably cause the game wasn't even made by Blizzard.

Warcraft 3 reforged's models were outsourced to a outside company as you said, I believe their name is Lemon Sky.