1. #14041
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    (1) You don't know that, no matter how many times you try to pass it as a fact.
    Until proven otherwise it is a fact. Plenty of facts have been proven wrong over time. Facts are the truth as currently understood. The lore does not support high elves existing in 'unknown lands'. So I am afraid I am not going to respect an argument that is essentially 'Blizzard might make more up'. They might, when they do we can discuss it. As they haven't, and high elf lore rather strongly suggests that the scenario you put forward is practically impossible, I discount it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    (2) False. What made the high elves shorter and lighter-skinned than the night elves was not the Sunwell, but their disconnection from the Well of Eternity and the World Tree. Elves found in other lands would also have been disconnected from the Well of Eternity and the World Tree, so they'd likely be shorter and lighter-skinned than the night elves.
    The Nightborne completely disprove this as they were never bonded to the world tree and created the Nightwell to sustain their addiction. This actually darkened their skin tones and left them even more attuned to the arcane. Elves do not change in the same fashion, it depends on their circumstances. You wish for a completely different set of circumstances to produce a group of elves the same as those from Quel'thalas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What you wrote is irrelevant, because you're not the one in Blizzard who makes the final decisions regarding lore. New playable races can come from alternate dimensions. Pandora's box has been opened. That is a fact.
    And rapidly shut. The Mag'har were drawn from a scenario so detailed it was used as the basis for an expansion. A really shitty expansion, but still an expansion. The alternate dimension came first, the Mag'har came later. They are not going to have us go spelunking through the warcraft multiverse for the sole reason of giving the Alliance white skinned elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That is meaningless because more blood elves can leave Silvermoon. Even after the schism there were still blood elves protesting in Silvermoon. And Blizzard could still make Lor'Themar make a controversial decision that could cause another schism.
    After the schism? But that was years ago and as every pro High Elfer knows, something that happened in the past and which is inconvenient doesn't matter anymore. Leaving that small hypocrisy aside, do you have any proof that even supports this has ever happened? Even Valeera stayed ideologically a Blood Elf and didn't hook up with the exiles. Perhaps the protesters wished to change Quel'thalas from within and drew the line at treason?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    One: we have not been shown yet any elf (high or blood) actually being converted.
    Two: you are one big supporter of the idea that high elves and blood elves are the same. Then that means high elves do not need to "zap" any blood elf to make them into a high elf.
    The process for becoming a Void Elf is being zapped. That is where new Void Elves come from. The process for creating a new high elf exile likely involves a considerable amount of time. There is also the fact that any Blood Elf who was disgusted enough to head over to the Alliance likely already did so at the moment of the schism. Even if one or two has headed over since, that still doesn't change the status of the exiles as a nearly dead, almost extinct group.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Population argument does not fly anymore.


    Population argument does not fly anymore.


    Population argument does not fly anymore.


    Population argument does not fly anymore.
    In the one corner I have multiple developers and fifteen years of Warcraft lore, and on the other I have you saying they are wrong. You don't exactly have the weight of evidence on your side.

    I know you keep citing the Void Elves as if that proved anything and it might if two of the times the population issue was mentioned in regards to the exiles were brought up AFTER Void Elves had been introduced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They're not. I'm sorry if you refuse to see the precedent for all three options I've posted here to boost high elf population numbers. What I wrote is not "fanfiction", it's stuff Blizzard has done before. As recently as little more than a year ago, in fact. While you, on the other hand, are trying to deny facts shown within the game, to the point of implying that high elves cannot reproduce with other high elves.
    The precedents all occurred under specific circumstances and their repetition for the obvious purpose of giving the Alliance white skinned elves would be more than a little ridiculous. As for the later, high elves can clearly reproduce with other high elves, but given the canon statements regarding their population and their canon proclivities towards relationships with humans, they aren't going to form the nucleus of a new independent high elf civilization either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Last, but not least: when the Highborne were banished from Kalimdor by Malfurion for refusing to let go of arcane magic, they left in various ships, and sailed to lands unknown. Who's to say that some ships were not pulled astray by storms during the trip and landed elsewhere we don't know about?
    Because the lands unknown were the unexplored Eastern Kingdoms. I don't believe they mentioned any getting lost in the storm, it was upon landing that their troubles started. That, and because they would never have come to depend on the Sunwell and would have led a separate existence, would mean that even if they did exist, they would not be High Elves and would be something entirely different.

  2. #14042
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Until proven otherwise it is a fact.
    "I'm right until you prove me wrong." It doesn't work like that. You're only right when you're proven right, not the other way around.

    The Nightborne completely disprove this
    "Around this time, they had become completely severed from the life-giving energy of the Well of Eternity. This meant that they were vulnerable to the elements and had not received immortality from Nozdormu and the World Tree. They had shrunk in height and their skin had become a peach hue similar to most dwarves and humans."

    And rapidly shut.
    Again, it doesn't work like that. You can't close the Pandora's Box once it's opened. You cannot say "alternate dimensions are never happening" because it already happened.

    The process for becoming a Void Elf is being zapped. That is where new Void Elves come from. The process for creating a new high elf exile likely involves a considerable amount of time.
    Actually, it takes an even smaller amount of time. "I left Silvermoon. I cannot condone with the Horde's actions and the direction Lor'themar is taking us."

    There is also the fact that any Blood Elf who was disgusted enough to head over to the Alliance likely already did so at the moment of the schism. Even if one or two has headed over since, that still doesn't change the status of the exiles as a nearly dead, almost extinct group.
    I do recall one certain Lor'themar Theron preparing to do that same thing, leaving the Horde to join the Alliance, along with all of Silvermoon. As for the Void Elves, they're just as "nearly dead, almost extinct group" too, considering they were a small group from the get-go, AND so many of them died in the war.

    In the one corner I have multiple developers and fifteen years of Warcraft lore, and on the other I have you saying they are wrong. You don't exactly have the weight of evidence on your side.
    I do have important evidence: the game itself, and basic logic. Off the top of my head there are three ways to boost the population of high elves in the world. You not wanting to accept facts of the precedents is not my problem.

    The precedents all occurred under specific circumstances
    Nonsense. Everything is a "special circumstance" if you look into the tiny details. Draenei joning the Alliance was a "special circumstance". Goblins joining the Horde was a "special circumstance". Pandaren joining both factions was a "special circumstance". No reasoning of why a race joins a faction was 100% the same as the others. So saying "your examples were special circumstances" does not hold water.

    I don't believe they mentioned any getting lost in the storm(1), it was upon landing that their troubles started(2).
    (1) I also don't recall reading that all ships survived the trip.
    (2) It was never stated that "their troubles began after landfall." This you making stuff up.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  3. #14043
    Some of the "I don't want people playing high elves"-ers are gona hit their 2nd year of constant posts soon. Over an alliance race. Over a race they most probably have no interest playing, that they can just...not play if they don't like them. Amazing.

    This thread started in March 2018 lol. 2 whole years of posting almost every day! This is honestly fascinating haha

    Hopefully we see high elves playable in the future!

  4. #14044
    How is this 734 pages. We already have high elves. They just have green eyes instead of blue currently.

  5. #14045
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    How is this 734 pages. We already have high elves. They just have green eyes instead of blue currently.
    Oh, the can of worms you just opened. Exactly why this thread that will not die exists to begin with.

  6. #14046
    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Some of the "I don't want people playing high elves"-ers are gona hit their 2nd year of constant posts soon. Over an alliance race. Over a race they most probably have no interest playing, that they can just...not play if they don't like them. Amazing.
    What's even more amazing is how you deliberately left out how most of the regular posters here (vide the entire premise of the thread) have been posting for those same two years about how they are still unable to deal with the fact that the race they want to play is on the Horde, over 13 years after the release of TBC despite the fact that they could just... play the Thalassian Elves on the Horde and be done with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Hopefully we see high elves playable in the future!
    Any day now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #14047
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What's even more amazing is how you deliberately left out how most of the regular posters here (vide the entire premise of the thread) have been posting for those same two years about how they are still unable to deal with the fact that the race they want to play is on the Horde, over 13 years after the release of TBC despite the fact that they could just... play the Thalassian Elves on the Horde and be done with it.




    Any day now.
    Interesting, just checked the horde roster and there are no playable high elves. Perhaps the "regular posters" who have been posting daily for for almost 2 years now, just need to read and have some common sense?

    I'll gladly wait for you to link me a screenshot of a high elf character creation, you know...as proof that high elves are playable.

    Also I really don't care when they're added, I don't even play alliance and probably won't ever unless the major raiding population suddenly shifts to alliance.

    If they are? Great, awesome. If they aren't? Oh well.
    I'm not going to go on a crusade about why I don't want an alliance race being played by alliance regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    How is this 734 pages. We already have high elves. They just have green eyes instead of blue currently.
    Those are blood elves. The high elves requested are the blue eyed ones affiliated with the alliance in case you're confused.
    Last edited by Grythletubs; 2019-12-19 at 07:20 PM.

  8. #14048
    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    ]
    Those are blood elves. The high elves requested are the blue eyed ones affiliated with the alliance in case you're confused.
    So effectivley the race that was all but obliterated ?

    You guys went 700+ pages...to argue to play a race that already exists...except with blue eyes. Honestly.

  9. #14049
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actually I can. Because Void Elves can almost certainly reproduce by converting Blood Elves or High Elf exiles. Void Elf numbers can therefore be explained as new recruits to the cause. High Elven exiles would need to reproduce the normal way, and as Elisande pointed out, they seem to be doing that with Humans rather than other Elves.

    Void Elves are not bound by the population argument, as you can always rapidly make more and justify where they came from.
    I also literally said that if HE and BE are biologically identical, they have the same chances from recruiting BE deserters than VE do. The only difference is that BE can simply switch sides for the SC, and more VE have to go through a process that can't be replicated.

    Again, if HE and BE are biologically the same, it's actually easy for a BE to join the SC than become a Void Elf. Thus is easier for the SC to bolster their numbers than the Ren'dorei.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    They don't have to reproduce to bolster their ranks. They can transform other Blood Elves or High Elves through the Void. Your argument is totally irrelevant.
    1- It is as of yet unconfirmed if VE can even replicate what created them in the first place.

    2- If Void Elves can "recruit" Blood Elves, and High Elves are biologically the same to Blood Elves, then why can't the SC recruit BE desertors as well?

    Logically, VE and the SC have the same option to recruit BE dissidents, but only the SC still has the option for normal reproduction on top of that. It's just so miopic to say "Well VE can recruit more BE" when the SC can literally do the same, specially when Vereesa believes the BE "deserve redemption."

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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    So effectivley the race that was all but obliterated ?

    You guys went 700+ pages...to argue to play a race that already exists...except with blue eyes. Honestly.
    It's because there will always be people such as you that no matter how long the conversation goes will dismiss any argument that contradicts what you already believe.

    Like you bringing the population argument when VE exist as a playable race -which I remind you, are a non viable species that HAS to recruit from other groups, things that the High Elves also can do-

  10. #14050
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That is false. That is not the only way. New Thalassian elves could join the high elves. Either from lands unknown (to us, the players) or come from alternate dimensions, or even dissatisfied blood elves could leave Silvermoon and the Horde to join the high elves.
    I thought high elfers wanted "the high elves that remained with the Alliance"? Not high elves from A) another land, B) an alternate dimension, or C) unhappy blood elves.

    I thought it was about the lore? When I see statements such as your quoted statement above it only reaffirms the notion that many high elfers (such as yourself) purely want high elves for the aesthetic, and would be happy with any butchering or altering of the lore so long as it resulted in your coveted aesthetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Silver Covenant Farstriders is a term that has officially been used, and many of these Farstriders are rangers, always has been, the institution operating in Silvermoon under the blood elf banner operates the same way, they are the Farstriders, and many of them are rangers. Farstrider is not a class but an institution, but ranger is a class.
    I've never seen the term "Silver Covenant Farstrider" been used. To my knowledge it is strictly a blood elven group/practice. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong on this, but you'll need to provide an official source that directly connects the SC and Farstriders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not participating so that the majority of their people can keep their homes in Dalaran seems like a valid excuse to me, though YMMV (and neither of us have any say on the issue as a narrative element in the story in any case). Their loyalties have already been established to lay with the Alliance, but their priorities are at odds.
    That's a bit of an oxymoron. If their loyalties were with the Alliance, then that's where their priorities would have been. Instead, their priorities were with maintaining neutrality as per the Kirin Tor's declaration which means they were and are loyal to the Kirin Tor above the Alliance. This is further evidenced by the fact that we almost always see the SC in action on behalf of the Kirin Tor, not the Alliance. Yes they are Alliance aligned, but their inclusions in the story have generally been for and behalf of Dalaran (with an alignment to the Alliance of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Being an active combatant in a war isn't required for partisanship, either.
    The Alliance were going to have to enlist farmers to take up arms in this war. If the high elves were loyal to the Alliance then they certainly would have been required to be active combatants in this war, especially if farmers were next in line to become combatants. I can't imagine the rest of the Alliance would have been too fond of the high elves taking a back seat due to "wanting to keep their homes in Dalaran", when many of the Alliance races were already or had already lost their homes.

    The fact they weren't active combatants is evidence that the high elves are loyal to the Kirin Tor first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Interesting, just checked the horde roster and there are no playable high elves. Perhaps the "regular posters" who have been posting daily for for almost 2 years now, just need to read and have some common sense?

    I'll gladly wait for you to link me a screenshot of a high elf character creation, you know...as proof that high elves are playable.
    Your argument is as useless as saying "the forsaken aren't playable, the undead are" despite the undead race description on the official WoW website referring to them as the forsaken and even their racials being named "Will of the forsaken".


    Chris Metzen said this about blood elves - "Blood elves are our high elves". As such, high elves are playable.

    Go to the Blood elf race description on the WoW website and you'll see the very first sentence in their description includes the term "high elf society". Why would the term "high elf society' be used in the very first sentence description about Blood Elves? To paint a picture in the players mind that these elves you can play ARE the high elves we have seen, known and interacted with in the warcraft universe.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  11. #14051
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I thought high elfers wanted "the high elves that remained with the Alliance"? Not high elves from A) another land, B) an alternate dimension, or C) unhappy blood elves.

    I thought it was about the lore? When I see statements such as your quoted statement above it only reaffirms the notion that many high elfers (such as yourself) purely want high elves for the aesthetic, and would be happy with any butchering or altering of the lore so long as it resulted in your coveted aesthetic.
    A) Another land that still maintains the high elf customs of old, and opt to join the high elves in the Alliance instead of joining the Horde.
    B) An alternate dimensions where the blood elves never happened, the Horde won the war, ransaking Azeroth, and the high elves are the last vestiges of the Alliance.
    C) "Unhappy blood elves" that regret what they did, or are dissatisfied with the Horde, but basically want to return to the same customs from before.

    Simple as that.
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  12. #14052
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    That's a bit of an oxymoron. If their loyalties were with the Alliance, then that's where their priorities would have been. Instead, their priorities were with maintaining neutrality as per the Kirin Tor's declaration which means they were and are loyal to the Kirin Tor above the Alliance. This is further evidenced by the fact that we almost always see the SC in action on behalf of the Kirin Tor, not the Alliance. Yes they are Alliance aligned, but their inclusions in the story have generally been for and behalf of Dalaran (with an alignment to the Alliance of course).
    Kind of already covered this in the original back and forth, but "loyalty" and "priority" are two different elements to any organization's overall goals or actions. Their "priority" wasn't on maintaining neutrality with the Kirin Tor above the Alliance, they managed a dual loyalty to both the Alliance and the Kirin Tor which requires flexibility on what they can or can't do. It's not a matter of a Kirin Tor > Alliance, or even Alliance > Kirin Tor, more that each group made certain requirements of the Silver Covenant (some of which were essentially exclusive). In order to remain in Dalaran, the Silver Covenant can't violate Dalaran's neutrality, and so can't aid the Alliance directly in the Blood War - not and keep their residence in Dalaran. This doesn't make them more loyal to the Kirin Tor, or less loyal to the Alliance, it's just a political reality of Dalaran and the Kirin Tor being their host. The Alliance was in no place to receive a stream of refugees displaced from Dalaran, and given their meager numbers their inclusion in the Alliance war effort wouldn't be worth the cost of being their host - the calculus doesn't pan out. If the Silver Covenant were acting at the behest of Dalaran they would indeed be neutral, but both the fact that they have a pronounced animosity for the Sunreavers and the Horde in general, and that their group was created to counter the Sunreavers directly (a Horde partisan group) I think it stands that the Silver Covenant are Alliance partisans. They don't act like an extension of the Kirin Tor in any real sense, either; Dalaran is simply their host, as the bulk of High Elven exiles live there given it's the city-state many of them resided in before the Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei split as well as an easy source of Arcane energies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The Alliance were going to have to enlist farmers to take up arms in this war. If the high elves were loyal to the Alliance then they certainly would have been required to be active combatants in this war, especially if farmers were next in line to become combatants. I can't imagine the rest of the Alliance would have been too fond of the high elves taking a back seat due to "wanting to keep their homes in Dalaran", when many of the Alliance races were already or had already lost their homes.
    An exaggeration on Greymane's part, more or less, given there's no evidence of conscription that we know of. If the Alliance were desperate enough for troops no doubt they'd issue a call for the High Elven exiles of Dalaran to join them, and thus the calculus of being their host would change. Given the few numbers of the High Elves I doubt many in the Alliance would've thought to call on the High Elven exiles at all, really; not to mention the dangers of the exiles committing themselves to dangerous wars when their numbers are already so few. They're a beleaguered people teetering on the edge of extinction as it is, so it's unsurprising they don't commit themselves to every Alliance conflict that rears its ugly head.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #14053
    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Some of the "I don't want people playing high elves"-ers are gona hit their 2nd year of constant posts soon. Over an alliance race. Over a race they most probably have no interest playing, that they can just...not play if they don't like them. Amazing.

    This thread started in March 2018 lol. 2 whole years of posting almost every day! This is honestly fascinating haha

    Hopefully we see high elves playable in the future!
    I play High Elves since mid-TBC, on the Horde - and even have male and female versions of some classes just because I can. Don't know what you are talking about. I also have 2 Void Elf characters since the end of Legion, one of which is sitting at 110 currently.

    I have some Night Elves just as well, dating back to Classic and played constantly since then. My NE priest was the 2nd character I created, my NE rogue was the 2nd character which got to 60 in Classic, and my NE druid was my 3rd character at 70 in TBC, and I love all three of them. Also got a DH character in Legion. Night Elves are more interesting than "High Elves", and Blood Elves just the same and even more. Any of the 4 available Elven races are much more appealing to me. Beside that, I would rather get a unique, interesting AR for the Alliance than just another Elf. I would love to get Vrykul, for example, or LF undead. I would not delete or racechange one of my existing Alliance characters into a "High Elf", that's for sure. But I would get me a Vrykul or LF undead character in an instant.

    I also don't want High Elves on the Alliance because there is no place for them anymore in this faction. Any function they might have, is already fulfilled by Night Elves (and Highborne), Humans and Void Elves. "High Elves" are NPCs for me, they can hang around with the Kirin Tor or whatever. Or stop being pussies, get yourself a Void upgrade and join the Void Elves.

    Though I would not mind a Half-Elf customization for Stormwind Humans, even if I would never use it, because my Human characters are Humans, thank you very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I also literally said that if HE and BE are biologically identical, they have the same chances from recruiting BE deserters than VE do. The only difference is that BE can simply switch sides for the SC, and more VE have to go through a process that can't be replicated.

    Again, if HE and BE are biologically the same, it's actually easy for a BE to join the SC than become a Void Elf. Thus is easier for the SC to bolster their numbers than the Ren'dorei.

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    1- It is as of yet unconfirmed if VE can even replicate what created them in the first place.

    2- If Void Elves can "recruit" Blood Elves, and High Elves are biologically the same to Blood Elves, then why can't the SC recruit BE desertors as well?

    Logically, VE and the SC have the same option to recruit BE dissidents, but only the SC still has the option for normal reproduction on top of that. It's just so miopic to say "Well VE can recruit more BE" when the SC can literally do the same, specially when Vereesa believes the BE "deserve redemption."

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    It's because there will always be people such as you that no matter how long the conversation goes will dismiss any argument that contradicts what you already believe.

    Like you bringing the population argument when VE exist as a playable race -which I remind you, are a non viable species that HAS to recruit from other groups, things that the High Elves also can do-
    Oh now High Elf player characters should be BE deserters as well? HAHAHA!
    This drives the argument about the "pure, unsullied" High Elves ad absurdum.
    Beside that, the path to the Alliance for "normal" Blood Elves was shut down by Jaina and her Dalaran purge, and now cemented with the burning of Teldrassil by Sylvanas. It's one thing to go to Dalaran which is neutral again, and a totally different thing to get into Stormwind or Ironforge when you are not clearly belonging to the new Void Elf addition to the Alliance.

    Just play the Thalassian Elves you got. You have 2 options, each on every faction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    A) Another land that still maintains the high elf customs of old, and opt to join the high elves in the Alliance instead of joining the Horde.
    B) An alternate dimensions where the blood elves never happened, the Horde won the war, ransaking Azeroth, and the high elves are the last vestiges of the Alliance.
    C) "Unhappy blood elves" that regret what they did, or are dissatisfied with the Horde, but basically want to return to the same customs from before.

    Simple as that.
    Does not fit to the recluses which had their magical strongholds to protect their kingdom and who looked down on every of their member who dared to care about other races more than about their own. Elves are xenophobic creatures in WoW, no matter which bloodline they belong to.
    Last edited by scubi666stacy; 2019-12-20 at 09:32 AM.

  14. #14054
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "I'm right until you prove me wrong." It doesn't work like that. You're only right when you're proven right, not the other way around.
    All we have is your idea. So I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying there is nothing tangible for you to be right or wrong over.

    And then they created the Sunwell which had further effects on them. You cannot claim that a hypothetical group of elves would turn out exactly the same way unless every single enviromental factor was replicated. For all you know without the Sunwell they could have kept dwindling until they ended up as the progenitors of a bunch of a Gnomes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again, it doesn't work like that. You can't close the Pandora's Box once it's opened. You cannot say "alternate dimensions are never happening" because it already happened.
    No, I am saying alternate dimensions for the express purpose of getting the Alliance white skinned elves is never happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, it takes an even smaller amount of time. "I left Silvermoon. I cannot condone with the Horde's actions and the direction Lor'themar is taking us."
    I was thinking in terms of reproduction, which for Void Elves also happens to be the same as defection. Frankly any Blood Elf who stuck with the Horde after Theramore is probably committed at this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I do recall one certain Lor'themar Theron preparing to do that same thing, leaving the Horde to join the Alliance, along with all of Silvermoon. As for the Void Elves, they're just as "nearly dead, almost extinct group" too, considering they were a small group from the get-go, AND so many of them died in the war.
    And I recall High Elven exile leader Veressa preparing to leave the Alliance for the Horde. They both thought better of it. As for Void Elves, they fact they are still a viable group despite the casualties you acknowledge happened is strong circumstantial evidence backing up their capability to turn other willing Elves into Void Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I do have important evidence: the game itself, and basic logic. Off the top of my head there are three ways to boost the population of high elves in the world. You not wanting to accept facts of the precedents is not my problem.
    Most of your proposals are putting the cart before the horse, generating extreme situations to justify white skinned elves for the Alliance. It would be like me proclaiming I want to play a race like the Miqote from Final Fantasy 14, a kemonomimi cat person. No evidence exists for that kind of race in Warcraft, just as no evidence exists for the existence of a group of Elves who look exactly like High Elves but who live elsewhere. And then to justify the very reasonable counter-point that someone will make that such a group does not exist, I argue 'well it is quite reasonable if we find an alien land or go to alternate dimension just so I can get these kemonomimi cat people I wish to play'.

    If someone told me they aren't going to do that level of effort just to give me kemonomimi cat people, they'd be right.

    Same principle with your 'suggestions' as they are not the precedents you claim them to be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Nonsense. Everything is a "special circumstance" if you look into the tiny details. Draenei joning the Alliance was a "special circumstance". Goblins joining the Horde was a "special circumstance". Pandaren joining both factions was a "special circumstance". No reasoning of why a race joins a faction was 100% the same as the others. So saying "your examples were special circumstances" does not hold water.
    The specific circumstance for the unknown land was that an expansion was set there. The germ of the idea was the Pandaren race and an asian themed land.

    The specific circumstance for the alternate dimension was that an expansion was set there. The germ of the idea was revisiting the game's past and seeing the Orc homeworld before it destroyed itself.

    Again, you are attempting to argue they should do an expansion's worth of content and the germ of the idea should be the Alliance getting white skinned elves.
    That's self indulgent to the point of absurdity, the entire playerbase should not have an expansion which lasts two years developed with the explicit aim of pleasing the pro High Elf crowd.




    (1) I also don't recall reading that all ships survived the trip.[/QUOTE]

    That's because it was never mentioned at all. And if it wasn't mentioned I am going to presume that none were lost, or at least none were that lost that then led to the development of a second high elf civilization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    (2) It was never stated that "their troubles began after landfall." This you making stuff up.
    No troubles were mentioned about their voyage, the discussion of the voyage itself was very short. Troubles began after landfall when they tried to settle Tirisfal Glades, where the influence of a buried C'thraxxi began driving some of them mad. Lorash Sunbeam was very angry at the Night Elves over what the High Elves had endured during this period.

    So please don't accuse me of making stuff up. That is more your speciality and that is truth. Your answer to every problem faced with getting white High Elves has been to make stuff up, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    With the High Elven canonically low population? Blood Elven defectors. Or an alternate universe. Or a hidden tribe. That is making stuff up.

    When it comes to Alleria's ability to transition between a void form and a non void form, you made stuff up as you insisted it was not unique. You still peddle the theory that her transformation wasn't the result of her eating the heart of a Dark naaru because accepting the truth as literally everyone else understands it undermines some of your other points. So you make stuff up, that she gained the ability another way despite it being contradicted on every single level.

    You keep pushing non-canon propositions with no evidence in support and then because nobody can disprove them because there is nothing to disprove, you then argue that makes you right. It's the same principle that leads to people debating the existence of the Sasquatch or the Loch Ness monster, absolutely no evidence in favour but impossible to completely disprove to someone who is intent on believing in it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I also literally said that if HE and BE are biologically identical, they have the same chances from recruiting BE deserters than VE do. The only difference is that BE can simply switch sides for the SC, and more VE have to go through a process that can't be replicated.

    Again, if HE and BE are biologically the same, it's actually easy for a BE to join the SC than become a Void Elf. Thus is easier for the SC to bolster their numbers than the Ren'dorei.
    In support of other elves being transformed into Void Elves are

    1.) The in game presence of those other elves learning the ways of the void.
    2.) The ability of Void Elves to convert other living beings (specifically the Ravasaurs in Zuldazar) into 'Void' Ravasaurs by blasting them with void energies, demonstrating the fundamental principle.
    3.) The mismatch between in game Void Elf numbers and the initial group, which was admittedly tiny.
    4.) Moorgard's interview answer, whose only possible interpretation is that elves are seeking the Void Elves out to join them as Void Elves.

    Have you any evidence of a similar outflowing of Blood Elves to become High Elves ever occurring beyond the hypothesis? Remember, the Void Elves offer powerful and otherwise forbidden magics. The SC offers a small room in Dalaran, possibly with your own turnip if you are lucky. The Void Elves clearly have a more attractive offer to those inclined.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-12-20 at 03:41 PM.

  15. #14055
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    All your examples are totally irrelevant because they are NPCs.
    I don't have any problems with "High Elven" NPCs
    A plot device is not what you think it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    They would have to recruit Blood Elves, which have then to be purged from the Fel which turns their eyes green, etc.
    And I don't see this happening much. Blood Elves have their Sunwell back, and they have never been that much Alliance-friendly anyway. They have kept to themselves, while your "High Elves" have abandoned their people in more than one way.

    Honestly, if Blizzard would reallly be into the whole faction war thing, then "High Elves" would already be hunted down and exterminated to the maximum possible extent, just like the Albae do with the Elves in the Albae / Dwarves fantasy books bei Markus Heitz (German fantasy author).

    I guess, Blizzard writers don't care that much about this aspect of lore. Why do they care about adding High Elves as a playable race, when they simply can use the additional customisation options?
    That's World of scubi666stacy, not World of Warcraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    All we have is your idea. So I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying there is nothing tangible for you to be right or wrong over.



    And then they created the Sunwell which had further effects on them. You cannot claim that a hypothetical group of elves would turn out exactly the same way unless every single enviromental factor was replicated. For all you know without the Sunwell they could have kept dwindling until they ended up as the progenitors of a bunch of a Gnomes.




    No, I am saying alternate dimensions for the express purpose of getting the Alliance white skinned elves is never happening.




    I was thinking in terms of reproduction, which for Void Elves also happens to be the same as defection. Frankly any Blood Elf who stuck with the Horde after Theramore is probably committed at this point.




    And I recall High Elven exile leader Veressa preparing to leave the Alliance for the Horde. They both thought better of it. As for Void Elves, they fact they are still a viable group despite the casualties you acknowledge happened is strong circumstantial evidence backing up their capability to turn other willing Elves into Void Elves.




    Most of your proposals are putting the cart before the horse, generating extreme situations to justify white skinned elves for the Alliance. It would be like me proclaiming I want to play a race like the Miqote from Final Fantasy 14, a kemonomimi cat person. No evidence exists for that kind of race in Warcraft, just as no evidence exists for the existence of a group of Elves who look exactly like High Elves but who live elsewhere. And then to justify the very reasonable counter-point that someone will make that such a group does not exist, I argue 'well it is quite reasonable if we find an alien land or go to alternate dimension just so I can get these kemonomimi cat people I wish to play'.

    If someone told me they aren't going to do that level of effort just to give me kemonomimi cat people, they'd be right.

    Same principle with your 'suggestions' as they are not the precedents you claim them to be.





    The specific circumstance for the unknown land was that an expansion was set there. The germ of the idea was the Pandaren race and an asian themed land.

    The specific circumstance for the alternate dimension was that an expansion was set there. The germ of the idea was revisiting the game's past and seeing the Orc homeworld before it destroyed itself.

    Again, you are attempting to argue they should do an expansion's worth of content and the germ of the idea should be the Alliance getting white skinned elves.
    That's self indulgent to the point of absurdity, the entire playerbase should not have an expansion which lasts two years developed with the explicit aim of pleasing the pro High Elf crowd.




    (1) I also don't recall reading that all ships survived the trip.

    That's because it was never mentioned at all. And if it wasn't mentioned I am going to presume that none were lost, or at least none were that lost that then led to the development of a second high elf civilization.



    No troubles were mentioned about their voyage, the discussion of the voyage itself was very short. Troubles began after landfall when they tried to settle Tirisfal Glades, where the influence of a buried C'thraxxi began driving some of them mad. Lorash Sunbeam was very angry at the Night Elves over what the High Elves had endured during this period.

    So please don't accuse me of making stuff up. That is more your speciality and that is truth. Your answer to every problem faced with getting white High Elves has been to make stuff up, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    With the High Elven canonically low population? Blood Elven defectors. Or an alternate universe. Or a hidden tribe. That is making stuff up.

    When it comes to Alleria's ability to transition between a void form and a non void form, you made stuff up as you insisted it was not unique. You still peddle the theory that her transformation wasn't the result of her eating the heart of a Dark naaru because accepting the truth as literally everyone else understands it undermines some of your other points. So you make stuff up, that she gained the ability another way despite it being contradicted on every single level.

    You keep pushing non-canon propositions with no evidence in support and then because nobody can disprove them because there is nothing to disprove, you then argue that makes you right. It's the same principle that leads to people debating the existence of the Sasquatch or the Loch Ness monster, absolutely no evidence in favour but impossible to completely disprove to someone who is intent on believing in it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    In support of other elves being transformed into Void Elves are

    1.) The in game presence of those other elves learning the ways of the void.
    2.) The ability of Void Elves to convert other living beings (specifically the Ravasaurs in Zuldazar) into 'Void' Ravasaurs by blasting them with void energies, demonstrating the fundamental principle.
    3.) The mismatch between in game Void Elf numbers and the initial group, which was admittedly tiny.
    4.) Moorgard's interview answer, whose only possible interpretation is that elves are seeking the Void Elves out to join them as Void Elves.

    Have you any evidence of a similar outflowing of Blood Elves to become High Elves ever occurring beyond the hypothesis? Remember, the Void Elves offer powerful and otherwise forbidden magics. The SC offers a small room in Dalaran, possibly with your own turnip if you are lucky. The Void Elves clearly have a more attractive offer to those inclined.
    Ok wow dev.

    (You are not)
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-12-20 at 06:03 PM.

  16. #14056
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    In support of other elves being transformed into Void Elves are

    1.) The in game presence of those other elves learning the ways of the void.
    2.) The ability of Void Elves to convert other living beings (specifically the Ravasaurs in Zuldazar) into 'Void' Ravasaurs by blasting them with void energies, demonstrating the fundamental principle.
    3.) The mismatch between in game Void Elf numbers and the initial group, which was admittedly tiny.
    4.) Moorgard's interview answer, whose only possible interpretation is that elves are seeking the Void Elves out to join them as Void Elves.

    Have you any evidence of a similar outflowing of Blood Elves to become High Elves ever occurring beyond the hypothesis? Remember, the Void Elves offer powerful and otherwise forbidden magics. The SC offers a small room in Dalaran, possibly with your own turnip if you are lucky. The Void Elves clearly have a more attractive offer to those inclined.
    I'm sure getting altered on a metaphysical level is the easiest way to change factions. "Like I want to be alliance, but you know, just switching sides? IDK I'd rather also being completely remade by dark magics if I'm going for it."

    Like my dude, so far the only person so far that has willingly became a Void Elf is Alleria. All the others were an accident, an accident that has yet to be replicated so far. How many are actually waiting on the wings to become VE?

    And beyond that, how many Blood Elves that want to leave the Horde exist? How many would only do it to become a VE? How many would leave the horde if there was a group of regular elves to go? If you are a BE that just want out of the Horde, only way out is through a forbidden ritual that completely reshapes you and a mat on a space rock. The room and turnip in Dalaran might be a better deal for some.

    Cause if all the new VE's that exist are basically "BE's crazy enough to want to become a VE willingly" it does not bode well for the longevity of the race.

  17. #14057
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    All we have is your idea. So I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying there is nothing tangible for you to be right or wrong over.
    We found new tauren tribes in unknown lands. We found new vrykul tribes in unknown lands. There are more than enough precedence for what I'm saying.

    And then they created the Sunwell which had further effects on them.
    Prove it. There is no record of any effect of the Sunwell on the high elves other than "getting them addicted". No record of physical changes.

    No, I am saying alternate dimensions for the express purpose of getting the Alliance white skinned elves is never happening.
    But "alternate dimensions for the express purpose of getting the Horde brown skinned orcs" is a-okay?

    I was thinking in terms of reproduction, which for Void Elves also happens to be the same as defection. Frankly any Blood Elf who stuck with the Horde after Theramore is probably committed at this point.
    Why couldn't defectors join the Silver Covenant, instead?

    And I recall High Elven exile leader Veressa preparing to leave the Alliance for the Horde.
    Apples and oranges. Lor'Themar wanted all of Silvermoon to join the Alliance for the betterment of the blood elves. Veressa would leave the Silver Covenant to be with her sister, her family, not to join the Horde.

    Most of your proposals are putting the cart before the horse, generating extreme situations to justify white skinned elves for the Alliance.
    Oh, please. Stop pretending "extreme situations to justify X race" is not common:
    • The Forsaken invaded Gilneas, forcing the gilneans out of their city.
    • Deathwing wrecked havoc on Kezan, forcing the goblins out of their island.
    • The draenei escaped demons attack and crash-landed on Azeroth.
    • The blood elves were under peril from the scourge in Ghostland and the Forsaken came to their aid.

    That's because it was never mentioned at all. And if it wasn't mentioned I am going to presume that none were lost, or at least none were that lost that then led to the development of a second high elf civilization.
    So what it wasn't mentioned. Before Legion, there was not a single mention of the highborne erecting a shield around half of Suramar and creating the nightwell. Before Mists of Pandaria, we had no idea that a gigantic, island-sized turtle was swimming through the oceans. I imagine, with such constant back-and-forth of ships and zeppelins between Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, such a giant turtle would be noticed.
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  18. #14058
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Oh now High Elf player characters should be BE deserters as well? HAHAHA!
    Why would BE deserters would ONLY want to join the Void Elves? The amount of deserters is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    This drives the argument about the "pure, unsullied" High Elves ad absurdum.
    An argument I don't care for? High Elves v/s Blood Elves is a political and ideological divide.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Beside that, the path to the Alliance for "normal" Blood Elves was shut down by Jaina and her Dalaran purge, and now cemented with the burning of Teldrassil by Sylvanas. It's one thing to go to Dalaran which is neutral again, and a totally different thing to get into Stormwind or Ironforge when you are not clearly belonging to the new Void Elf addition to the Alliance.

    Just play the Thalassian Elves you got. You have 2 options, each on every faction.
    So again, why would the BE deserters be only able to join the VE and not the SC? Why do you need to be altered by a cosmic force to switch sides when there are already regular elves on the alliance? The SC is lead specifically by an alliance loyal character that thinks the BE can be redeemed.

    The point I'm illustrating that the unplayability of HE is not a lore issue, but a gameplay one. Something that phrases like "Just play the Thalassian Elves you got. You have 2 options, each on every faction" clearly endorse. It's not about what makes sense lorewisel, it's just about gameplay balance when you wilfully admit it as well.

  19. #14059
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'm sure getting altered on a metaphysical level is the easiest way to change factions. "Like I want to be alliance, but you know, just switching sides? IDK I'd rather also being completely remade by dark magics if I'm going for it."

    Like my dude, so far the only person so far that has willingly became a Void Elf is Alleria. All the others were an accident, an accident that has yet to be replicated so far. How many are actually waiting on the wings to become VE?

    And beyond that, how many Blood Elves that want to leave the Horde exist? How many would only do it to become a VE? How many would leave the horde if there was a group of regular elves to go? If you are a BE that just want out of the Horde, only way out is through a forbidden ritual that completely reshapes you and a mat on a space rock. The room and turnip in Dalaran might be a better deal for some.

    Cause if all the new VE's that exist are basically "BE's crazy enough to want to become a VE willingly" it does not bode well for the longevity of the race.
    That's a good point, which I haven't really thought about. Why the hell would anyone go and become insane on purpose? I mean if we can't RP as Void Elves who has controlled the power of the Void, and all Void Elves are batshit crazy, who would actually bolster the ranks of Void Elves? If a Blood Elf/High Elf have mastered the arcane magic and are in control over that, why would they ever risk the life of going insane for no power increase?

    I don't think the devs have thought this one through. The population argument against High Elves just got even weaker, if that was possible. Not that I think the devs care one bit about consistency when it comes to the story.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2019-12-20 at 07:59 PM.

  20. #14060
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    That's a good point, which I haven't really thought about. Why the hell would anyone go and become insane on purpose? I mean if we can't RP as Void Elves who has controlled the power of the Void, and all Void Elves are batshit crazy, who would actually bolster the ranks of Void Elves? If a Blood Elf/High Elf have mastered the arcane magic and are in control over that, why would they ever risk the life of going insane for no power increase?

    I don't think the devs have thought this one through. The population argument against High Elves just got even weaker, if that was possible. Not that I think the devs care one bit about consistency when it comes to the story.
    I believe you haven't thought this response through, the devs did just fine. Insanity is the risk, it is not a guarantee. What attracts the Elves to the void is the promise of power, and they justify to themselves their pursuit of it. Some Void Elves are better at mastering the whispers than others. It is merely a perception that they are all batshit crazy.

    Warcraft lore is littered with examples of characters who took risks in the pursuit of power. Quel'lithien is a monument to such an attempt that went wrong now. Void Elves are no different. If you want a specific answer to your question as to why anyone would take the risk, I recommend re-reading a thousand years of war to view again Alleria's decision making process.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    The point I'm illustrating that the unplayability of HE is not a lore issue, but a gameplay one. Something that phrases like "Just play the Thalassian Elves you got. You have 2 options, each on every faction" clearly endorse. It's not about what makes sense lorewisel, it's just about gameplay balance when you wilfully admit it as well.
    Of course that's the main reason.

    But if the High Elves were a thriving civilization with cities and armies, all pledged to the Alliance, I don't believe for a second you would accord the gameplay rationale much care. You would point out a major Alliance race that isn't playable and the gameplay reasons wouldn't outweigh the lore ones.

    But the lore rationale, thankfully, is robust. They are broken, degraded, diminished and scattered and the vast majority of the lore based arguments in this very thread are pro High Elfers attempting to argue why they shouldn't be seen that way. But they are seen that way, and as such the gameplay rationale vastly more acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'm sure getting altered on a metaphysical level is the easiest way to change factions. "Like I want to be alliance, but you know, just switching sides? IDK I'd rather also being completely remade by dark magics if I'm going for it."

    Like my dude, so far the only person so far that has willingly became a Void Elf is Alleria. All the others were an accident, an accident that has yet to be replicated so far. How many are actually waiting on the wings to become VE?

    And beyond that, how many Blood Elves that want to leave the Horde exist? How many would only do it to become a VE? How many would leave the horde if there was a group of regular elves to go? If you are a BE that just want out of the Horde, only way out is through a forbidden ritual that completely reshapes you and a mat on a space rock. The room and turnip in Dalaran might be a better deal for some.

    Cause if all the new VE's that exist are basically "BE's crazy enough to want to become a VE willingly" it does not bode well for the longevity of the race.
    Void Elves are probably good for the duration of World of Warcraft. Once the franchise moves on, they'll probably be allowed to die off screen. They exist solely to provide Alliance players with a thalassian elf option within the current game framework.

    As to why it is more plausible for Void Elves to be getting recruits rather than the exiles, that is simple. Nothing motivates a High Elf like some forbidden magic. For all the talk of the morality of the exiles, Quel'lithien was the same old story, high elves messing with powers they shouldn't have and paying the price.

    The Void Elves offer access to and knowledge of a power forbidden by Quel'thalas. That's catnip for whole swathes of Blood Elves and some exiles too.

    The exiles offer just that. Exile and nothing else. Anyone who cared to make the ideological switch probably did so a long time ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    See it's difficult to argue this, because your answer to everything is essentially 'they can just make it up'.

    Which of course they can.

    So my standard answer to your suggestions of how they can make it up from this moment forward is going to be 'they aren't going to do that' because this is not a real debate. You are not debating. If you were putting forward propositions grounded in lore we could evaluate the available evidence either supporting or contrary to those propositions and reach personal conclusions regarding their likelihood. That is impossible here. You are throwing out wild hypotheses with no real evidence to even suggest they are remotely possible for this particular group.

    There is nothing to argue over here because I don't believe anything of substance has been proposed.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-12-20 at 08:26 PM.

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