1. #14061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    That's a good point, which I haven't really thought about. Why the hell would anyone go and become insane on purpose? I mean if we can't RP as Void Elves who has controlled the power of the Void, and all Void Elves are batshit crazy, who would actually bolster the ranks of Void Elves? If a Blood Elf/High Elf have mastered the arcane magic and are in control over that, why would they ever risk the life of going insane for no power increase?

    I don't think the devs have thought this one through. The population argument against High Elves just got even weaker, if that was possible. Not that I think the devs care one bit about consistency when it comes to the story.
    I believe you haven't thought this response through, the devs did just fine. Insanity is the risk, it is not a guarantee. What attracts the Elves to the void is the promise of power, and they justify to themselves their pursuit of it. Some Void Elves are better at mastering the whispers than others. It is merely a perception that they are all batshit crazy.

    Warcraft lore is littered with examples of characters who took risks in the pursuit of power. Quel'lithien is a monument to such an attempt that went wrong now. Void Elves are no different. If you want a specific answer to your question as to why anyone would take the risk, I recommend re-reading a thousand years of war to view again Alleria's decision making process.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    The point I'm illustrating that the unplayability of HE is not a lore issue, but a gameplay one. Something that phrases like "Just play the Thalassian Elves you got. You have 2 options, each on every faction" clearly endorse. It's not about what makes sense lorewisel, it's just about gameplay balance when you wilfully admit it as well.
    Of course that's the main reason.

    But if the High Elves were a thriving civilization with cities and armies, all pledged to the Alliance, I don't believe for a second you would accord the gameplay rationale much care. You would point out a major Alliance race that isn't playable and the gameplay reasons wouldn't outweigh the lore ones.

    But the lore rationale, thankfully, is robust. They are broken, degraded, diminished and scattered and the vast majority of the lore based arguments in this very thread are pro High Elfers attempting to argue why they shouldn't be seen that way. But they are seen that way, and as such the gameplay rationale vastly more acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'm sure getting altered on a metaphysical level is the easiest way to change factions. "Like I want to be alliance, but you know, just switching sides? IDK I'd rather also being completely remade by dark magics if I'm going for it."

    Like my dude, so far the only person so far that has willingly became a Void Elf is Alleria. All the others were an accident, an accident that has yet to be replicated so far. How many are actually waiting on the wings to become VE?

    And beyond that, how many Blood Elves that want to leave the Horde exist? How many would only do it to become a VE? How many would leave the horde if there was a group of regular elves to go? If you are a BE that just want out of the Horde, only way out is through a forbidden ritual that completely reshapes you and a mat on a space rock. The room and turnip in Dalaran might be a better deal for some.

    Cause if all the new VE's that exist are basically "BE's crazy enough to want to become a VE willingly" it does not bode well for the longevity of the race.
    Void Elves are probably good for the duration of World of Warcraft. Once the franchise moves on, they'll probably be allowed to die off screen. They exist solely to provide Alliance players with a thalassian elf option within the current game framework.

    As to why it is more plausible for Void Elves to be getting recruits rather than the exiles, that is simple. Nothing motivates a High Elf like some forbidden magic. For all the talk of the morality of the exiles, Quel'lithien was the same old story, high elves messing with powers they shouldn't have and paying the price.

    The Void Elves offer access to and knowledge of a power forbidden by Quel'thalas. That's catnip for whole swathes of Blood Elves and some exiles too.

    The exiles offer just that. Exile and nothing else. Anyone who cared to make the ideological switch probably did so a long time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    See it's difficult to argue this, because your answer to everything is essentially 'they can just make it up'.

    Which of course they can.

    So my standard answer to your suggestions of how they can make it up from this moment forward is going to be 'they aren't going to do that' because this is not a real debate. You are not debating. If you were putting forward propositions grounded in lore we could evaluate the available evidence either supporting or contrary to those propositions and reach personal conclusions regarding their likelihood. That is impossible here. You are throwing out wild hypotheses with no real evidence to even suggest they are remotely possible for this particular group.

    There is nothing to argue over here because I don't believe anything of substance has been proposed.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-12-20 at 08:26 PM.

  2. #14062
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I believe you haven't thought this response through, the devs did just fine. Insanity is the risk, it is not a guarantee. What attracts the Elves to the void is the promise of power, and they justify to themselves their pursuit of it. Some Void Elves are better at mastering the whispers than others. It is merely a perception that they are all batshit crazy.

    Warcraft lore is littered with examples of characters who took risks in the pursuit of power. Quel'lithien is a monument to such an attempt that went wrong now. Void Elves are no different. If you want a specific answer to your question as to why anyone would take the risk, I recommend re-reading a thousand years of war to view again Alleria's decision making process.
    Danuser quote is why we know the devs haven't tought this through. We got that vague answer because the devs doesn't know how to handle the population issue so far. It's quite telling when the developers doesn't have everything considered, they like everyone in the industry doesn't give clear answers when they don't have it. And I don't bring Danuser's quote up for another debate, it's to bring an example.

    And the lore tells us of a few people who have taken risks. Leaders, and a few with promising powers. It's not like 5000 Blood Elves suddenly want to take the risk, be big heroes and be insane with no certain power increase. I had your posts about RP in mind, it's you who had those "rules" about RPing as a Void Elf you are insane and got no real control of the Void. Your words, not mine. Alleria managed, then so can others, right?
    Last edited by Doffen; 2019-12-20 at 08:59 PM.

  3. #14063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Danuser quote is why we know the devs haven't tought this through. We got that vague answer because the devs doesn't know how to handle the population issue so far. It's quite telling when the developers doesn't have everything considered, they like everyone in the industry doesn't give clear answers when they don't have it. And I don't bring Danuser's quote up for another debate, it's to bring an example.

    And the lore tells us of a few people who have taken risks. Leaders, and a few with promising powers. It's not like 5000 Blood Elves suddenly want to take the risk, be big heroes and be insane with no certain power increase. I had your posts about RP in mind, it's you who had those "rules" about RPing as a Void Elf you are insane and got no real control of the Void. Your words, not mine. Alleria managed, then so can others, right?
    Enough Blood Elves and exiles take the risk to ensure that the Void Elves can maintain their status as a crack, elite squad. They aren't a civilization, they aren't a major race, and stating they aren't subject to the same population constraints as the exiles doesn't mean the opposite, that they are as numerous as Humans or Night Elves or even Gnomes.

    They are a viable force with a defined aesthetic and theme. That is all that is required of them.

    As for my comments regarding roleplayers, that was in response to how other players should treat Void Elf players who insist they are not Void Elves. A rather elegant solution too. But not all Void Elves are mad, they just run the risk of madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Anyone who cared to make the ideological switch probably did so a long time ago.
    Untrue as Umbric and his crew pre-void elf transform show that there were Blood Elves who didn't agree with joining the Horde, yet didn't leave for the Alliance. Despite one such as Umbric stating the Alliance are where his people (Blood Elves) belong.

    We also saw from the get-go of Blood Elf release in TBC that there were (could still be as Silvermoon hasn't changed to reflect it) Blood Elves speaking out against having joined the Horde back then as well.

    To simply say those who would've left already did so is incorrect in the truest sense.

    Simply put, we don't know how many more Blood Elves in the Horde do not wish to be there until Blizzard decides to revisit the topic. Just like we don't know how many Loyalists to Sylvanas still exist within the Horde - we only know that an unspecific amount do exist.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2019-12-20 at 09:53 PM.

  5. #14065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Untrue as Umbric and his crew pre-void elf transform show that there were Blood Elves who didn't agree with joining the Horde, yet didn't leave for the Alliance. Despite one such as Umbric stating the Alliance are where his people (Blood Elves) belong.
    They were thrown out of Silvermoon, they didn't leave by choice. In fact I would wager they were under the delusion that once they successfully mastered the void and demonstrated it's uses that Silvermoon would be begging for them to come back. All Umbric had to do was take one look at the immediate results to understand the scope of his folly and how much of an impossible dream that was likely to be.

    Joining the Alliance afterwards seems less about expressing their undying devotion to the faction than sucking up to the one organisation that has a use for them, which you can see with Umbric seeming to painfully walk on eggshells and desperate to prove their worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    We also saw from the get-go of Blood Elf release in TBC that there were (could still be as Silvermoon hasn't changed to reflect it) Blood Elves speaking out against having joined the Horde back then as well.
    A pro High Elfer using a source over a decade old and not questioning it's authenticity because of it's age, albeit that is because the example has something of use for their position. Interesting.

    There were two individuals. There has been no follow up to that story. Also they were not aiming to leave Silvermoon to join the Alliance themselves, they were attempting to convince their people they had made a mistake. There is a difference between a dissenting opinion and full on treason. We know there were dissenters. We have no evidence for more traitors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    To simply say those who would've left already did so is incorrect in the truest sense.
    There isn't a shred of evidence it has happened on an appreciable scale. Hypothetically possible, but not the answer to the population woes of the exiles. We do however have this evidence in regards to blood elves going to the Void Elves, courtesy of Tel'ogrus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Simply put, we don't know how many more Blood Elves in the Horde do not wish to be there until Blizzard decides to revisit the topic. Just like we don't know how many Loyalists to Sylvanas still exist within the Horde - we only know that an unspecific amount do exist.
    Until they decide to revisit the topic, and with no other indications, I am assuming between none and negligible.

  6. #14066
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    See it's difficult to argue this, because your answer to everything is essentially 'they can just make it up'.
    It's what Blizzard does for everything. But the important point here that you're ignoring, or trying to sweep under the rug, is that everything I mentioned as possible options for boosting the high elf population has already been done in the past for other races.

    So my standard answer to your suggestions of how they can make it up from this moment forward is going to be 'they aren't going to do that' because this is not a real debate. You are not debating. If you were putting forward propositions grounded in lore we could evaluate the available evidence either supporting or contrary to those propositions and reach personal conclusions regarding their likelihood. That is impossible here. You are throwing out wild hypotheses with no real evidence to even suggest they are remotely possible for this particular group.
    The only one "not debating" here is you. I offered propositions grounded in lore and all you did, and are doing, is handwaving everything away, saying "nah, not gonna happen".

    There is nothing to argue over here because I don't believe anything of substance has been proposed.
    That's your problem them, if you refuse to see what has been presented to you.

  7. #14067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They were thrown out of Silvermoon, they didn't leave by choice. In fact I would wager they were under the delusion that once they successfully mastered the void and demonstrated it's uses that Silvermoon would be begging for them to come back. All Umbric had to do was take one look at the immediate results to understand the scope of his folly and how much of an impossible dream that was likely to be.

    Joining the Alliance afterwards seems less about expressing their undying devotion to the faction than sucking up to the one organisation that has a use for them, which you can see with Umbric seeming to painfully walk on eggshells and desperate to prove their worth.
    If that is how you wish to interpret it you can. But based on how Blizzard has expressed every NPC's broadcast text, whatever comes out of an NPC's mouth is what they hold true. Thus everything said by Umbric and other NPC's is what they truly believe.

    This is why when Horde Allied Races meet their greeter, Blizzard puts the text in to show he doesn't really give a fuck to greet. They literally write in the actions because they've written all their NPC's as being forefront whenever something is said by them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    A pro High Elfer using a source over a decade old and not questioning it's authenticity because of it's age, albeit that is because the example has something of use for their position. Interesting.

    There were two individuals. There has been no follow up to that story. Also they were not aiming to leave Silvermoon to join the Alliance themselves, they were attempting to convince their people they had made a mistake. There is a difference between a dissenting opinion and full on treason. We know there were dissenters. We have no evidence for more traitors.
    You do it all the time, yet try to throw shade when others use the same tactic. You have said many times the Warcraft Encyclopedia is true in its entirety and ignore the more recent information that has decanonized parts of it.

    The same happens here. Except there's literally nothing to show that things have changed in Silvermoon for someone trying to discredit my example there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    There isn't a shred of evidence it has happened on an appreciable scale. Hypothetically possible, but not the answer to the population woes of the exiles. We do however have this evidence in regards to blood elves going to the Void Elves, courtesy of Tel'ogrus.
    It doesn't have to be. Your argument was those who would've left would have done so by now. That Magister Umbric and his followers were unknown at all, yet revealed they had that sentiment since the joining of Blood Elves and Horde shows that your hypothesis is incorrect. It is a fact to say that there were Blood Elves who didn't agree with being in the Horde, but didn't leave to the Alliance immediately. Magister Umbric's group was but one example, only revealed by Blizzard when appropriate.

    Nothing says they aren't anymore groups, yet Umbric's group is evidence that just because Blood Elves disagree with the Horde doesn't necessarily mean they'd have joined the Alliance right when they decided that(your argument).

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Until they decide to revisit the topic, and with no other indications, I am assuming between none and negligible.
    You can do whatever you'd like, no one's beholden to your opinion nor mine. But what you stated has evidence to the contrary and that was being pointed out.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2019-12-21 at 03:22 AM.

  8. #14068
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Void Elves are probably good for the duration of World of Warcraft. Once the franchise moves on, they'll probably be allowed to die off screen. They exist solely to provide Alliance players with a thalassian elf option within the current game framework.
    Hence why my point still stands; it's not a lore issue, it's a gameplay one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As to why it is more plausible for Void Elves to be getting recruits rather than the exiles, that is simple. Nothing motivates a High Elf like some forbidden magic. For all the talk of the morality of the exiles, Quel'lithien was the same old story, high elves messing with powers they shouldn't have and paying the price.

    The Void Elves offer access to and knowledge of a power forbidden by Quel'thalas. That's catnip for whole swathes of Blood Elves and some exiles too.
    That just makes Void Elves all the more non-viable as a race because of all the teetering on the edge of oblivion. Then if they care not for ideology and only power, nor are they viable on the long term, they would only be on the alliance for the convenience of a place where to further their goals. Pretty much Forsaken 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The exiles offer just that. Exile and nothing else. Anyone who cared to make the ideological switch probably did so a long time ago.
    Unless if the whole Blood War made some Blood Elves consider "Are we the baddies?"since all the... genocide they were complicit in. But I'm sure for you it's more likely for it to be swaths of BE's so obsessed with power that they would change sides, but very few BE that would question their actions after the Blood War.

  9. #14069
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Hence why my point still stands; it's not a lore issue, it's a gameplay one.
    No, that isn't what is being said. You are attempting to reduce it to an either or scenario, that high elves were ruled out and void elves in for gameplay alone. You seemingly say this to argue the lore rationale behind a high elf allied race is impeccable.

    Instead, whilst the gameplay rationale is paramount, it is not alone.

    High Elves were not added to the Alliance because that would be a duplicate of a core Horde race and that would undermine the identity of the Blood Elf race and the integrity of the Horde faction. That is the gameplay rationale. It is indisputably the cause given it is the reason cited by Ion as to why high elves didn't happen.

    But just because high elves were ruled out for gameplay reasons does not mean there are no valid lore reasons for their lack of inclusion. Them being extremely low in numbers, scattered to the corners of the world and essentially being non-functional is a lore reason. As I said, if the high elves had a government, a capital, an army and a seat at the Alliance table yet weren't playable because of Blood Elves, a lot more than the pro High Elf crowd would be calling bullshit on that. The exiles have none of those things and that makes it far easier to accept the gameplay rationale.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That just makes Void Elves all the more non-viable as a race because of all the teetering on the edge of oblivion. Then if they care not for ideology and only power, nor are they viable on the long term, they would only be on the alliance for the convenience of a place where to further their goals. Pretty much Forsaken 2.0
    As long as they are valid for the duration of World of Warcraft then that is all that matters. But I don't see them having a long term future in the franchise's lore and once WoW ends, as it inevitably must, should a future project continue the journey I don't imagine the Void Elves will be a part of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Unless if the whole Blood War made some Blood Elves consider "Are we the baddies?"since all the... genocide they were complicit in. But I'm sure for you it's more likely for it to be swaths of BE's so obsessed with power that they would change sides, but very few BE that would question their actions after the Blood War.
    In the war campaign, after we defeat Azshara, Lor'themar decides to cast his lot in with Saurfang, Baine and others in the rebellion against Sylvanas. This was the action that made him worry about the unity of the Sin'Dorei fracturing, as he wasn't sure they would follow him in revolt, not that some would defect to the Alliance. He had earlier commented that Sylvanas had the support of the people, with no particular race specified. Sylvanas was, until her true colours were revealed, a popular Warchief as she had fooled the majority of the Horde into thinking she would secure peace and their safety through her total commitment to victory. And any Blood Elf who had their 'are we the baddies' moment did what Lor'themar did. They joined the rebellion to save the Horde from it's darkest impulses.

  10. #14070
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No, that isn't what is being said. You are attempting to reduce it to an either or scenario, that high elves were ruled out and void elves in for gameplay alone. You seemingly say this to argue the lore rationale behind a high elf allied race is impeccable.

    Instead, whilst the gameplay rationale is paramount, it is not alone.

    High Elves were not added to the Alliance because that would be a duplicate of a core Horde race and that would undermine the identity of the Blood Elf race and the integrity of the Horde faction. That is the gameplay rationale. It is indisputably the cause given it is the reason cited by Ion as to why high elves didn't happen.

    But just because high elves were ruled out for gameplay reasons does not mean there are no valid lore reasons for their lack of inclusion. Them being extremely low in numbers, scattered to the corners of the world and essentially being non-functional is a lore reason. As I said, if the high elves had a government, a capital, an army and a seat at the Alliance table yet weren't playable because of Blood Elves, a lot more than the pro High Elf crowd would be calling bullshit on that. The exiles have none of those things and that makes it far easier to accept the gameplay rationale.
    And my point is that all the lore rationale that works against for High Elves is rescinded in other AR, such as Void Elves, in which case gameplay takes priority for why they are feasible to be playable. That's the point, that if we are going by lore alone, High Elves make more sense than Void Elves as an Allied Race/group.

    -They have existed as allies of the alliance for over a decade in WoW.
    -Have distinct and recurring groups.
    -Have the possibility for natural reproduction and recruitment

    Hence, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.



    As long as they are valid for the duration of World of Warcraft then that is all that matters. But I don't see them having a long term future in the franchise's lore and once WoW ends, as it inevitably must, should a future project continue the journey I don't imagine the Void Elves will be a part of that.
    Which again, is a gameplay argument, not a lore one.

    In the war campaign, after we defeat Azshara, Lor'themar decides to cast his lot in with Saurfang, Baine and others in the rebellion against Sylvanas. This was the action that made him worry about the unity of the Sin'Dorei fracturing, as he wasn't sure they would follow him in revolt, not that some would defect to the Alliance. He had earlier commented that Sylvanas had the support of the people, with no particular race specified. Sylvanas was, until her true colours were revealed, a popular Warchief as she had fooled the majority of the Horde into thinking she would secure peace and their safety through her total commitment to victory. And any Blood Elf who had their 'are we the baddies' moment did what Lor'themar did. They joined the rebellion to save the Horde from it's darkest impulses.
    That's irrelevant to the point that you still consider to be more plausible than a significant number of BE are willing to leave the horde because of wanting more power than some Blood Elves having ethical issues with their continued complicitness in War Crimes, because "surely this time, is the last one!"

    That's what is utterly biased from your PoV, how "unlikely" the things you do not want are for you. You don't seem to believe on possibilities based on how logical they are, you decide if something is logical based on whether you like it or now. Such as thinking the only reason BE would leave the Horde for the Alliance is thirst for power, over any other ideological discrepancy.

  11. #14071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    If that is how you wish to interpret it you can. But based on how Blizzard has expressed every NPC's broadcast text, whatever comes out of an NPC's mouth is what they hold true. Thus everything said by Umbric and other NPC's is what they truly believe.
    Everything an NPC says is true?



    I don't accept that at all. NPCs have personalities. They lie. They obfuscate. They mislead. They flatter. Umbric is telling you the truth, but he is twisting it slightly for his own ends, his own ends being he is terrified the Alliance will decide the Void Elves are more trouble than they are worth and that it would be better to kill them now and get it over with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    This is why when Horde Allied Races meet their greeter, Blizzard puts the text in to show he doesn't really give a fuck to greet. They literally write in the actions because they've written all their NPC's as being forefront whenever something is said by them.
    Really? I got the sense that was just a sardonic Undead unhappy at being given what he deems a menial job and who doesn't care to hide his disdain. His commentary reflects his personality. Just as some NPCs maybe lying or fudging the truth. I think Umbric feels a gratitude towards the Alliance and a paranoia they may turn on him and his people, hence his constant need to point out how they are helping and his insecure need for reassurance that they've done a good job. But he is acting this way primarily because he has no other choice but to act this way.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You do it all the time, yet try to throw shade when others use the same tactic. You have said many times the Warcraft Encyclopedia is true in its entirety and ignore the more recent information that has decanonized parts of it.
    Yeah. I do. That was the point. It seems old sources are only useful if they suit what the pro High Elf community wishes to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    The same happens here. Except there's literally nothing to show that things have changed in Silvermoon for someone trying to discredit my example there.
    It happened but they haven't followed it up in over a decade. Safe to assume nothing came of it, particularly given how Lor'themar was worried that the Blood Elves wouldn't follow him and revolt against the Warchief as of 8.2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    It doesn't have to be. Your argument was those who would've left would have done so by now. That Magister Umbric and his followers were unknown at all, yet revealed they had that sentiment since the joining of Blood Elves and Horde shows that your hypothesis is incorrect. It is a fact to say that there were Blood Elves who didn't agree with being in the Horde, but didn't leave to the Alliance immediately. Magister Umbric's group was but one example, only revealed by Blizzard when appropriate.
    They didn't leave because they were in the Horde. They didn't leave of their own free will. They were banished for messing with dangerous magics. And Umbric's commentary about the Horde is just too ingratiating, he is trying so very hard to get on the good side of the Alliance and he is genuinely worried they will turn on him at any moment if he gives them the slightest reason too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Nothing says they aren't anymore groups, yet Umbric's group is evidence that just because Blood Elves disagree with the Horde doesn't necessarily mean they'd have joined the Alliance right when they decided that(your argument).
    Of the six types of magic, two are forbidden from extreme study. Anyone who was supremely interested in fel was probably wiped out during the abortive invasion of Quel'Danas. And anyone exiled for studying the void and who wasn't with Umbric is probably with him now.

  12. #14072
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    A) Another land that still maintains the high elf customs of old, and opt to join the high elves in the Alliance instead of joining the Horde.
    B) An alternate dimensions where the blood elves never happened, the Horde won the war, ransaking Azeroth, and the high elves are the last vestiges of the Alliance.
    C) "Unhappy blood elves" that regret what they did, or are dissatisfied with the Horde, but basically want to return to the same customs from before.

    Simple as that.
    Got it, you don't want high elves for their lore.. you want them for the aesthetic. Glad we got that worm out of the can. Unfortunately though, if you want that aesthetic the Horde is waiting for you. /end convo

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Kind of already covered this in the original back and forth, but "loyalty" and "priority" are two different elements to any organization's overall goals or actions. Their "priority" wasn't on maintaining neutrality with the Kirin Tor above the Alliance, they managed a dual loyalty to both the Alliance and the Kirin Tor which requires flexibility on what they can or can't do. It's not a matter of a Kirin Tor > Alliance, or even Alliance > Kirin Tor, more that each group made certain requirements of the Silver Covenant (some of which were essentially exclusive). In order to remain in Dalaran, the Silver Covenant can't violate Dalaran's neutrality, and so can't aid the Alliance directly in the Blood War - not and keep their residence in Dalaran. This doesn't make them more loyal to the Kirin Tor, or less loyal to the Alliance, it's just a political reality of Dalaran and the Kirin Tor being their host. The Alliance was in no place to receive a stream of refugees displaced from Dalaran, and given their meager numbers their inclusion in the Alliance war effort wouldn't be worth the cost of being their host - the calculus doesn't pan out. If the Silver Covenant were acting at the behest of Dalaran they would indeed be neutral, but both the fact that they have a pronounced animosity for the Sunreavers and the Horde in general, and that their group was created to counter the Sunreavers directly (a Horde partisan group) I think it stands that the Silver Covenant are Alliance partisans. They don't act like an extension of the Kirin Tor in any real sense, either; Dalaran is simply their host, as the bulk of High Elven exiles live there given it's the city-state many of them resided in before the Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei split as well as an easy source of Arcane energies.
    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. From what's been portrayed in the BfA story the SC are no where to be seen which means they honored the neutral position of the Kirin Tor above their loyalty to the Alliance. You can disagree, but that's how it's portrayed to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    An exaggeration on Greymane's part, more or less, given there's no evidence of conscription that we know of. If the Alliance were desperate enough for troops no doubt they'd issue a call for the High Elven exiles of Dalaran to join them, and thus the calculus of being their host would change. Given the few numbers of the High Elves I doubt many in the Alliance would've thought to call on the High Elven exiles at all, really; not to mention the dangers of the exiles committing themselves to dangerous wars when their numbers are already so few. They're a beleaguered people teetering on the edge of extinction as it is, so it's unsurprising they don't commit themselves to every Alliance conflict that rears its ugly head.
    That's a poor basis to claim Greymane was exaggerating. Due to Saurfang the war came to an early end, which could likely have been why the farmers were not conscripted. They likely could have been if the war had continued.

    The Alliance were desperate for troops, hence why they allowed the void elves into their ranks and hence why they actively sought out other races to enlist to the war (eg. allied races).
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  13. #14073
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Snip
    1) "Broadcast text", please comprehend what I stated. Nice attempt at a Strawman reponse.

    2) Again, it had to be explained with parenthetical descriptions. Otherwise the lines of "Hi. I'm Ambassador Blackguard." and "On behalf of the warchief, I am honored to welcome you to Orgrimmar" would be taken as genuine. Again, Blizzard is treating every single thing in NPC Broadcast text as true as ever.

    Bolded so you don't bring an unnecessary and useless cinematic to examples of NPC Broadcast text, which is what was being discussed.

    3) Ah good, so you admit that you were using decade+ old content unquestioningly and it's absurd to do. That's good to know.

    4) "Safe to assume nothing came of it" could've been said about Edge of Night as well. Oh but whoops a decade later and Blizzard is going 'it was there all along! Ya see!". So no, don't think it's 'safe to assume' anything at this point.

    5) Your argument was, "those who would've left would have done so by now" and I am proving that incorrect with Umbric and his group. I do not see why you're arguing for the reasons that his group eventually joined the Alliance. The point is that the argument, "any Blood Elf who didn't agree with the Horde would've joined the Alliance long ago," is proven factually incorrect per Umbric's group. Nothing more, nothing less.

    6) Your headcanon isn't Blizzard canon. Thus not much to say to this last portion other than that.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Obelisk Kai at this point it just appears to be that you're looking to argue just to argue. Have at it man.

  14. #14074
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    That's a poor basis to claim Greymane was exaggerating. Due to Saurfang the war came to an early end, which could likely have been why the farmers were not conscripted. They likely could have been if the war had continued.

    The Alliance were desperate for troops, hence why they allowed the void elves into their ranks and hence why they actively sought out other races to enlist to the war (eg. allied races).
    The Alliance was near victory for the latter part of the war, as admitted to by Nathanos on the occasion of Rastakhan's death. The Alliance might've been running low on reserves, but the war was nearly won regardless. The Void Elves also joined the Alliance well before Greymane uttered those lines - they fought with the Alliance at the Battle of Lordaeron, after all.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #14075
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Got it, you don't want high elves for their lore.. you want them for the aesthetic. Glad we got that worm out of the can. Unfortunately though, if you want that aesthetic the Horde is waiting for you. /end convo
    Me:
    • Explain several times it's not about the aesthetic, but the lore.
    • Lay out three lore-friendly possibilities for high elves to 'boost' their population numbers.

    You:
    • Plug ears with fingers.
    • Proceed to go "LALALALA CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING IT'S ALL ABOUT AESTHETICS GO HORDE!" loudly.

  16. #14076
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And my point is that all the lore rationale that works against for High Elves is rescinded in other AR, such as Void Elves, in which case gameplay takes priority for why they are feasible to be playable. That's the point, that if we are going by lore alone, High Elves make more sense than Void Elves as an Allied Race/group.

    -They have existed as allies of the alliance for over a decade in WoW.
    -Have distinct and recurring groups.
    -Have the possibility for natural reproduction and recruitment

    Hence, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.
    High Elves do not make more sense. Their status as 'allies' is debatable given the majority of them live in Dalaran and did not participate in the fourth war, likely because of the constraints their residency in Dalaran imposed upon them.
    The only recurring group has been the Silver Covenant. As of Legion there are less Silver Covenant NPCs than there were in Wrath and MOP and their dedicated quarter was handed over to the Worgen, even though some Silver Covenant still remain there. Given the conflicts the Silver Covenant has seen, given their low population status was established back in wrath, it is not unfair to assume that their population woes have been compounded.
    The problem with natural reproduction is that we don't know how long it takes an elf to mature and it's only been fourteen years since the fall of Quel'thalas. That and Elisande heavily implied that the exiles are more likely to breed with humans than other elves suggests the result is going to be more Half Elves, not high elves and even then they are springing forth from a confirmed tiny population base.

    Recruitment from defecting Blood Elves has never been addressed. I don't believe there has ever been one example either in game or in the wider lore. If it is happening, it is not happening on a scale that is worthy of note, nor is it enough to address the population issue afflicting the exiles given that the high elf population was cited as the lore rationale by Ion as to why they weren't added.





    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Which again, is a gameplay argument, not a lore one.
    Yes it is. The existence of a gameplay rationale does not preclude the lore rationale which is what your argument is suggesting. Both matter.



    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's irrelevant to the point that you still consider to be more plausible than a significant number of BE are willing to leave the horde because of wanting more power than some Blood Elves having ethical issues with their continued complicitness in War Crimes, because "surely this time, is the last one!"
    That is a hypothetical statement. The problem is there no proof of that ever occurring. It also ascribes to the Blood Elves a superior morality to the other Horde races when the converse has proven to be true. When the Horde has strayed too far, it has been Trolls, Taurens and Orcs who have stepped up first against the excesses of their Warchief.

    And just as there is no proof of Blood Elves leaving the Horde for ideological reasons, there is plenty of proof that they do leave the Horde for reasons of enhancing their own power. The presence of Silvermoon Scholars in Telogrus is a testament to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's what is utterly biased from your PoV, how "unlikely" the things you do not want are for you. You don't seem to believe on possibilities based on how logical they are, you decide if something is logical based on whether you like it or now. Such as thinking the only reason BE would leave the Horde for the Alliance is thirst for power, over any other ideological discrepancy.
    I have physical in game proof that Blood Elves have left the Horde in the pursuit of power. The aforementioned Silvermoon Scholars.
    There is no evidence any Blood Elf has left Silvermoon over political ideology to join the Alliance since the initial schism.
    And you have still not reconciled your statement with Lor'themar's words, that he was worried about the Sin'Dorei NOT following him in revolt against Sylvanas. He was not worrying that they would defect.
    Nor have you reconciled your statement with Lor'themar's actions, which showed that there was another path between following Sylvanas and defecting to the Alliance and that is joining a rebellion against Sylvanas to save the Horde from itself.

    I believe the reason for this continuing oversight is that you still don't accept the Blood Elves are committed to the Horde now, that they believe in the Horde and that they want to save the Horde. Instead every crisis must be seen the same way, as an opportunity for the Sin'Dorei to see their mistake and to leave for the Alliance again.
    That door was closed in MOP with the purge, the meta narrative goal of which was to demonstrate to players that the Blood Elves are on the Horde for the rest of this game at least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Alliance was near victory for the latter part of the war, as admitted to by Nathanos on the occasion of Rastakhan's death. The Alliance might've been running low on reserves, but the war was nearly won regardless. The Void Elves also joined the Alliance well before Greymane uttered those lines - they fought with the Alliance at the Battle of Lordaeron, after all.
    Given Anduin's lines in 8.2.5 it is clear the campaign in Nazjatar cost them, unsurprising given that Sylvanas intended for their to be maximum casualties on both sides and more Alliance forces were caught in the trap than Horde.

    Alleria's comment that prior to the battle of the gates of Orgrimmar that Sylvanas had the only army capable of taking on N'zoth comes with the implicit understanding that the combined Alliance and Horde rebel forces do not.

    The commentary in 8.2.5 only makes sense if the Alliance's advantage had been eliminated at that point. An Alliance victory was not guaranteed as of the beginning of 8.2.5 due to the events of 8.2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    1) "Broadcast text", please comprehend what I stated. Nice attempt at a Strawman reponse.

    2) Again, it had to be explained with parenthetical descriptions. Otherwise the lines of "Hi. I'm Ambassador Blackguard." and "On behalf of the warchief, I am honored to welcome you to Orgrimmar" would be taken as genuine. Again, Blizzard is treating every single thing in NPC Broadcast text as true as ever.

    Bolded so you don't bring an unnecessary and useless cinematic to examples of NPC Broadcast text, which is what was being discussed.
    Your Ambassador Blackguard example isn't making sense. His entire attitude is sulky and there isn't one occasion when he even tries to be welcoming.

    NPCs are characters, not info dumps. What they say, how they say it and what they don't say are all important.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    3) Ah good, so you admit that you were using decade+ old content unquestioningly and it's absurd to do. That's good to know.
    No I was pointing out the hypocrisy that when you find old content that supports a point you want to make it's completely valid, but anything else from the same time period that goes against what you want should be ignored.

    Everything is valid unless explicitly retconned, and if the situation has evolved since that time that doesn't change the fact the situation WAS what it was back then. Retconning means it never happened at all, which is different from a situation changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    4) "Safe to assume nothing came of it" could've been said about Edge of Night as well. Oh but whoops a decade later and Blizzard is going 'it was there all along! Ya see!". So no, don't think it's 'safe to assume' anything at this point.
    You only know that because they came out and told you, and they told you because the situation became relevant to the current storyline. If Blood Elves were going to defect due to the conduct of the Horde, BFA would have been a good time to do that don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    5) Your argument was, "those who would've left would have done so by now" and I am proving that incorrect with Umbric and his group. I do not see why you're arguing for the reasons that his group eventually joined the Alliance. The point is that the argument, "any Blood Elf who didn't agree with the Horde would've joined the Alliance long ago," is proven factually incorrect per Umbric's group. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Because Umbric and his group didn't leave by choice, they were banished. And they didn't go to the Alliance, they retreated to areas they could conduct their research in private. And they only went to the Alliance because they had no other choice.

    And Umbric and his followers aren't high elves, they are Void Elves. Their motives weren't based on ideology, they were based on a pursuit of forbidden power that has physical consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    6) Your headcanon isn't Blizzard canon. Thus not much to say to this last portion other than that.
    The entire pro High Elf position is headcanon. On this particular point you argue might have beens or maybes or perhaps yet can't point out a single shred of evidence to support it.

  17. #14077
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    It really doesn't make sense anymore to deny the Alliance faction playable High Elves. If Blizzard can make a smaller sub-faction consisting of the same race be playable in the form of Void Elves, then the larger faction which they originate from should most definitely be playable. The devs are just being ridiculously obtuse by stretching this whole deal out and denying the simple reality of the situation.

  18. #14078
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    It really doesn't make sense anymore to deny the Alliance faction playable High Elves. If Blizzard can make a smaller sub-faction consisting of the same race be playable in the form of Void Elves, then the larger faction which they originate from should most definitely be playable. The devs are just being ridiculously obtuse by stretching this whole deal out by denying the simple reality of the situation.
    Look, this debate is pointless. If they were ever going to add High Elves to the Alliance, the moment of opportunity was when they introduced Allied Races.

    Void Elves are not proof of concept which shows High Elves are possible. Void Elves are the replacement they created to give the Alliance some kind of high elf variant when they decided they weren't going to give the Alliance a duplicate of a Horde race. They aren't going to give the Alliance a second thalassian elf, let alone one that looks and acts exactly like the Horde's.

    And that was pretty much it once they did that. I know this thread is nearly two years old with thousands of posts but the moment they created Void Elves the debate ended. There no ordeal to stretch out because the answer was given. Void Elves were the answer.

  19. #14079
    So how is this thread going on now ?

    Are we still at the "Making high elves custom is admitting they don't belong as a complete race" point ?

  20. #14080
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Void Elves are not proof of concept which shows High Elves are possible. Void Elves are the replacement they created to give the Alliance some kind of high elf variant when they decided they weren't going to give the Alliance a duplicate of a Horde race. They aren't going to give the Alliance a second thalassian elf, let alone one that looks and acts exactly like the Horde's.
    They already did that. They just hastily added some shitty bluberry recolor on paint before hand, but they litteraly did give Blood Elves to the Alliance. Same animations, same faces, same emotes, same everything. That Blood Elf players aren't as against those existing as the High Elves prove that all they care is the otuward appearance of their toons and feel threatened by the Alliance getting them in the variant which already is a part of the Alliance and has been for the longest time.

    I know that you and other anti-helfers think that Void Elves close the deal, but you are flat out wrong. Blizzard tried to close it, fucked up incredibly badly anbd kept compounding mistakes on those mistakes.

    And, quite frankly. I don't give a fuck about some Hordy's victimhood if we get High Elves. Like, at all. What I want is for once for the Alliance to get a race which makes sense lorewise, fit its thematics and has a lot of inhgerent appeal because of its background and potential for new stories. The High Elves creating a new society, distinct and distant from Silvermoon is ten thousands times far more interesting that Blood Elven rejects getting void-tainted and yet still hope that someday Silvermoon will return to the Alliance.

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