Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

You are off topic or you take bad examples, I have the impression ...
We are just asking that an "unavailable" breed becomes "available" ...


The blood elves are not / more and do not like that they are called or considered as high elves, the worst insult for them, they are a race of thalassian elf who joined the horde, it is all.


you should have known since the time you've been in this thread, right?

That 'unavailable' breed is in fact available, which is the problem with the high elf request. Blood Elves are high elves and are in possession of everything that defines a high elf. The reason they are not accepted as the de facto high elves is not because of anything lacking on their part, but because they happen to be on the 'wrong' faction.

And I have never heard of high elf being an insult for a Blood Elf. That is definitely a new suggestion.

[Shakana]

And is probably the reason why they don't show has many things (I know what you mean about the hoods, they're so goofy and BEs have slim necks but the hoodie looks so poofy).

But yeah short of a WoW 2, I don't think they'll be able to ever show any neck/rings. Just the way the game was designed

There's always stuff like: clipping through, like ears, eyebrows, hairs not showing. Female NE/BE/VE look completely HAIRLESS.

[FlubberPuddy]

Your basic starting point is incorrect. You define the exiles as plausible because they are politically separate from Blood Elves. Yet that is the sole measure of their differentiation, their politics. They are as separate from the Blood Elves as Defias Humans are from Humans or the majority of the Grimtotem Tauren are from the other Tauren. What these groups show is that the politics is functionally irrelevant as a differentiating factor.
Because Blood Elves are High Elves, High Elves are playable. What are not playable are High Elves for the Alliance. That may aggrieve you, but you can't play Horde Draenei or Horde Dwarves or Horde Humans, nor should you, that would be unfair to the integrity of the Alliance faction and the identity of whatever race was duplicated.

No, I think you're purposely being obtuse about what I said. I literally gave examples such as other races that would fulfill race requests players have had forever and how if the shoe was on the other foot (Mag'har Alliance Orcs or Alliance Undead that could be Paladins), you would see the same pushback from Horde players.

Because it's not simply the race option itself, but the faction it is relegated to as well especially in this game where the developers have made it apparent that faction pride should exist.

And in the case of a current example (Void Elves being able to look like Dark Rangers) you offer no counterpoint to the claim I made that Horde players who want to play Dark Rangers are exclaiming around all over social media that "Dark Rangers now exist finally!" because someone would have to be completely out of their mind to simply focus on the look of the race and not what faction it is in as well when regarding the player requested playable race options in a game where the devs (again) put faction pride to the forefront.

You're focusing on the in-game race perspective, I'm talking about the actual players of the game. "What these groups show is that politics is functionally irrelevant" is showing you're not speaking about player faction pride, but the in-game races and the decisions those races made politically. I am not talking about this from an in-game perspective at all, so I don't understand why you'd bring that in - it is not part of the argument I made.

Factions have to mean something to be interesting. That means respecting the integrity of that faction and respecting the identity of the various races that comprise that faction. Duplicating a core part of the Horde fantasy to the Alliance is disrespectful to both the Horde faction and to the Blood Elf identity as the traditional type elf of the Warcraft franchise.

You keep using this argument but Nightborne destroy it. They are the "purple elf" of the Horde while the Alliance had always had "the purple elves" of the game. Therefore it should be no different to introduce in similar appearance the High Elves to Alliance that can be the counter to the "Fair Elves" on Horde.

When you're playing a Nightborne you do not have the "core part of the Alliance fantasy" as their culture and society and appearances and racials are not copy-paste from Night Elves. Similar so, a High Elf on the Alliance - should it have been as an Allied Race like Nightborne would not carry those same things as to preserve "a core part of Horde fantasy".

This argument you use here fails all the time because Nightborne show how you can put another purple elf on the opposite side and still preserve a core faction fantasy that already exists on one side.

A High Elf option is in game. That game is predicated on a faction based system which prioritises the uniqueness of each faction over the desire of players to mix and match races and factions. The option ended up on the other faction to the one you preferred. That is unfortunate. But a variant was provided as a measure of compensation, distinct but similar.

There's two High Elf options in the game now, just like how there's two Night Elf options in the game. Again, if you wanna talk about "prioritizing uniqueness of each faction" why is Horde allowed to get a purple elf when Alliance seem incapable of receiving a fair skinned one?

Nowhere have I ever said that Alliance High Elves need to be a copy paste of Horde Elves and this entire thread has focused on differentiating the culture/aesthetics/racials/society of a hypothetical Alliance High Elf Allied Race.

The thing you always seem to be hovering around but not saying it is this: Horde is allowed to have Purple and Fair skin Elves, and Alliance cannot have a fair skin Elf. The only thing unique about the Blood Elves is that they have fair skin, and taking that away makes them less unique. But it's ok for there to be 3 different types of Purple Elves.

That's really how you've been coming off as to me, because every time you try to bring up arguments against adding High Elves, it doesn't work when you apply it to Nightborne.

And for arguments to be considered as convincing they generally have to apply across various comparable situations. Your focus seems to always be on simply keeping Alliance High Elves out of the game, which in itself makes no sense as you've previously shown to not care for whether other known player requests get into the game or not.

[Ielenia]

That 'unavailable' breed is in fact available, which is the problem with the high elf request.

It is not a problem, because it's not available. High elf supporters do not want nor care about playing a blood elf.

Blood Elves are high elves

But not all high elves are blood elves, which is the problem, here. Silver Covenant elves are not blood elves. Allerian Stronghold elves are not blood elves. Alliance high elves are not blood elves.

and are in possession of everything that defines a high elf.

The blood elf story split from the high elf story the moment they let go of that moniker and their old customs to stop their suffering. Blood elves only share their past with the high elves, up to the point of the re-branding and subsequent schism. Everything after that is separate as "blood elf lore" and "high elf lore".

The reason they are not accepted as the de facto high elves is not because of anything lacking on their part, but because they happen to be on the 'wrong' faction.

"Accepted" by whom? Because I don't think the developers share that same sentiment, otherwise we wouldn't have groups of Alliance-aligned elves called high elves. Ion's original statement, which I assume it's what you're referencing here, could just mean that the blood elf race is the closest one can get to playing an actual high elf character.

[FlubberPuddy]

There's always stuff like: clipping through, like ears, eyebrows, hairs not showing. Female NE/BE/VE look completely HAIRLESS.

Yeah I hope their next big iteration on character design is making Hairstyles work with hats/helmets. They'll probably have to get into the nitty gritty of their armor system for that though.

[shade3891]

Do void elf classes make sense if they would add a fair-skin (high elf) option?

[FlubberPuddy]

The blood elf story split from the high elf story the moment they let go of that moniker and their old customs to stop their suffering. Blood elves only share their past with the high elves, up to the point of the re-branding and subsequent schism. Everything after that is separate as "blood elf lore" and "high elf lore".

Crazy how someone so invested cannot see this. The developers literally took away the voice lines that say shit like "may the Eternal Sun guide us" from Alliance High Elf NPCs of today because they literally are not practicing the same culture as the Blood Elves of today.

They gave them Night Elven sayings while also taking out anything blatantly mentioning Night Elf society. Going one step further vs the Blood and High Elves in Telogrus Rift who literally repeat the exact same broadcast texts.

So the developers took the time to do give Alliance High Elf NPCs different voice lines, as well as making sure they're not literally repeating the exact same thing Night Elves do, and some people still think 'High Elves in Alliance are exactly like Blood Elves'. Pretty absurd.

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Do void elf classes make sense if they would add a fair-skin (high elf) option?

Every class on every race makes sense at this point. Our characters are incredibly unique individuals and not just a run of the mill soldier like in Vanilla.

They're also making a new starting area for Shadowlands and it will mean the original starting areas are now optional content. So you don't even have to be tied down to your original 'origin story' of simply doing menial stuff for your race's people and began already as an adventurous member of the Horde or Alliance.

[Black Goat]

Zandalari and Darkspear are both Trolls. Just as High Elves and Blood Elves are Elves. Both groups are the same race. Just like Kul'Tirans are Humans and so are Stormwindians too, both Human race.

Zandalari and Darkspeaker. Both Trolls. Both Horde races.

Kul'Tirans and Stormwind Humans. Both Humans. Both Alliance.

Blood Elves and former High Elves. Both Elves. Different factions, which is the ENTIRE PROBLEM.

Yeah, the almanac says High Elves were Alliance. That isn't telling us anything new, and lends favor to exactly the reason why Blizzard has not, and will not, give Alliance a facsimile Blood Elf. Or a Blood Elf with more customization. The High Elves formally withdrew from the Alliance faction, plain and simple. This issue is really not nearly as complex as some people pretend it is. There are opinions and there are facts. The facts pretty clearly outline why the Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves.

Slivers of hope, tidbits of information here and three, 3 High Elves in a cinematic together... None of those things outweigh the fact (not an opinion) that Blood Elves, High Elves by simply a different name, realigned with the Horde many years ago. There's not fourteen layers of nuance there with which to debate.

[FlubberPuddy]

Zandalari and Darkspeaker. Both Trolls. Both Horde races.

Kul'Tirans and Stormwind Humans. Both Humans. Both Alliance.

Blood Elves and former High Elves. Both Elves. Different factions, which is the ENTIRE PROBLEM.

Yeah, the almanac says High Elves were Alliance. That isn't telling us anything new, and lends favor to exactly the reason why Blizzard has not, and will not, give Alliance a facsimile Blood Elf. Or a Blood Elf with more customization. The High Elves formally withdrew from the Alliance faction, plain and simple. This issue is really not nearly as complex as some people pretend it is. There are opinions and there are facts. The facts pretty clearly outline why the Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves.

Slivers of hope, tidbits of information here and three, 3 High Elves in a cinematic together... None of those things outweigh the fact (not an opinion) that Blood Elves, High Elves by simply a different name, realigned with the Horde many years ago. There's not fourteen layers of nuance there with which to debate.

The Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves and that's fine. What the Alliance does have is unplayable High Elves which people are requesting be made playable.

You list some facts but leave out others, such as there have been and still are High Elves in the Alliance who never left the Alliance when their nation pulled out.

Nobody who wants Alliance High Elves gives a shit about Blood Elves. It's like trying to make someone care about playable Draenei when they're looking for Man'ari to be part of the Horde. Or better yet, no one cares that the ogre humans aka Kul'Tirans exist on Alliance when they're looking for Ogres on the Horde.

Same for all those Horde players that have been wanting Dragonmaw Orcs (though they'll most likely get the option in Shadowlands).

The basic premise is you and a few others are trying to make people care or settle with an existing option when clearly the people here making this request don't give a shit about the existing options.

[Black Goat]

The Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves and that's fine. What the Alliance does have is unplayable High Elves which people are requesting be made playable.

You list some facts but leave out others, such as there have been and still are High Elves in the Alliance who never left the Alliance when their nation pulled out.

The Alliance does have playable Blood Elves. They just adopted Void Magic, and became Void Elves.

Okay, how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Give me a number. Blizzard says the number is too low, and I'm eager to hear an informed individual explain to me why Blizzard is wrong.

[FlubberPuddy]

The Alliance does have playable Blood Elves. They just adopted Void Magic, and became Void Elves.

Okay, how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Give me a number. Blizzard says the number is too low, and I'm eager to hear an informed individual explain to me why Blizzard is wrong.

Nice strawman. When was it ever said Blizzard is wrong? All you have to do is have a current Alliance character and you can see the non-Void High Elves that still exist within it.

I'll leave you with that since you can just re-read all the arguments that you're trying to employ which aren't in good faith that I won't waste my time with anymore.

You have the whole thread to inform yourself, I don't need to do it for you.

[Shakana]

Do void elf classes make sense if they would add a fair-skin (high elf) option?

Well that's kinda what i have been suggesting and i would like for them to change a bit faces, expressions

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The Alliance does have playable Blood Elves. They just adopted Void Magic, and became Void Elves.

Okay, how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Give me a number. Blizzard says the number is too low, and I'm eager to hear an informed individual explain to me why Blizzard is wrong.

Simply put: With void elves they have proven that high elves are more than what they said. And even some devs said they can't argue with some people, because it's hard to contradict good arguments about the population.

[shade3891]

Would be cool if a questline was added to cleanse the Void Elfs of most of the void (corruption) and unlock a fair skin with regular hair-types.
Maybe when we ever have a Void(lord) focussed expansion and the whispers get louder

Like they did for the Night Warrior eyes questline.

[Aucald]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

[Black Goat]

Nice strawman. When was it ever said Blizzard is wrong? All you have to do is have a current Alliance character and you can see the non-Void High Elves that still exist within it.

I'll leave you with that since you can just re-read all the arguments that you're trying to employ which aren't in good faith that I won't waste my time with anymore.

You have the whole thread to inform yourself, I don't need to do it for you.

I'm sorry, where's the strawman? I simply asked you how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance since your ilk have often claimed Blizzard is incorrect on their evaluation of the High Elf population. Instead of answering, you appear to be defensive with a poor attitude.

I was hoping to hear something new and more convincing since the old opinions didn't quite hit the mark to convince me or Blizzard that there are enough left to form a meaningful player experience. I mean, a baker's dozen or so probably remain loyal. But surely no one thinks that's enough to create a player hub where PCs can make and create news ones, right?

Also, on the topic of previously employed arguments, didn't you just make one by falsely correlating Zandalari/Darkspear, Human/Kul'Tiran, and Blood/High Elf? So really, why are you so defensive?

Just because I have a different opinion on the matter doesn't mean I'm arguing in "bad faith". That just sounds like a defense mechanism to avoid meaningful discourse. So far you've accused me of a strawman and arguing disingenuously, and all I've asked is a simple question that you refuse to answer with a snarky attitude. So forgive me when I say this, but it seems like YOU are the one having a discussion with a crappy attitude and mindset.

Just because you're pro-HE doesn't afford you impunity.

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I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

I believe it would simply provide the "feel" that there's a Thalassian Elf playable on the Alliance that ISN'T a purple, tentacled creature.

Some favor the appearance, some favor the lore. The High Elf supporters appear to be divided on this front.

[Aucald]

I believe it would simply provide the "feel" that there's a Thalassian Elf playable on the Alliance that ISN'T a purple, tentacled creature.

Some favor the appearance, some favor the lore. The High Elf supporters appear to be divided on this front.

Well, the Void Elves are already "Thalassian," and I don't think the tentacles are going to go anywhere because the Elves in question would still be tainted by the Void - glowing purple when triggering their racial ability and so forth. But having a more or less normal skin coloration and such seems fine by me, if that's what people want. Though I have a Void Elf character solely for their Void mutations, I recognize everyone has their own predilections insofar as the look and style of their characters go.

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

To break it down, some people are arguing that if they were able to make their Void Elf look like a High Elf then they could pretend it was a High Elf for roleplaying purposes. Others are clearly after the Blood Elf aesthetic and simply want to use the Void Elves as a vector to achieve that.

Personally, I think such an outcome is possible, but the only reason I believe it is possible is because one of the developers was asked whether it was possible and he replied that it was possible. And that was essentially all he said on the topic, that it was possible, hence it's possible. I believe all the other factors against it mean it is unlikely to happen however.

One of the factors is the one you've identified here, that they're still going to be Void Elves and we know where they came from. It therefore becomes a matter of personal perspective IF implemented. Some have argued that they are capable of ignoring all the little factors that will regularly remind the player they are a void elf such a modulated voice and the entropic embrace racial proccing and will be able to embrace being a Void Elf. And who knows, maybe they will be. But that isn't what the wider player base will do, to them a Void Elf is going to be a Void Elf.

I am also fairly confident that the wider pro High Elf movement is split on the topic, with most seeming to be against the possibility on the grounds that it wouldn't be the high elf exile they wanted and that it's provision would mean Blizzard would feel under further obligation to give them the high elves they seek, as they would just point at Void Elves and say go play that (which is a position I think they are at anyway) although plenty would clearly take the option to have access to the aesthetic.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm sorry, where's the strawman? I simply asked you how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance since your ilk have often claimed Blizzard is incorrect on their evaluation of the High Elf population. Instead of answering, you appear to be defensive with a poor attitude.

I was hoping to hear something new and more convincing since the old opinions didn't quite hit the mark to convince me or Blizzard that there are enough left to form a meaningful player experience. I mean, a baker's dozen or so probably remain loyal. But surely no one thinks that's enough to create a player hub where PCs can make and create news ones, right?

Also, on the topic of previously employed arguments, didn't you just make one by falsely correlating Zandalari/Darkspear, Human/Kul'Tiran, and Blood/High Elf? So really, why are you so defensive?

Just because I have a different opinion on the matter doesn't mean I'm arguing in "bad faith". That just sounds like a defense mechanism to avoid meaningful discourse. So far you've accused me of a strawman and arguing disingenuously, and all I've asked is a simple question that you refuse to answer with a snarky attitude. So forgive me when I say this, but it seems like YOU are the one having a discussion with a crappy attitude and mindset.

Just because you're pro-HE doesn't afford you impunity.

It's not about impunity because firstly the amount of in-game models within the game doesn't define the literal population of each of the races that reside in the WoW universe. If you came in with that as your starting argument it's already in bad faith. Pure and simple.

Otherwise Stormwind, a city that's supposed to be so freaking huge only has like what 40 homes and 100-200 people living in there?

That's why it's a strawman and an obvious one at that. Nobody should taking in-game NPC numbers as literal representation, what they do represent is a percentage of population in a game that literally couldn't run if it had to display the actual amount of NPCs that reside in the zones we explore.

That you throw out a dozen or so as number of High Elves continues to show the bad faith arguments. There was someone who painstakingly took the time to create some album with unique named High Elf NPCs and it numbered in over the 100s.

Your posts continue to be in bad faith on the grounds that you're not here to actually have your mind changed and that's easily seen from the way you post.

[Obelisk Kai]

It is not a problem, because it's not available. High elf supporters do not want nor care about playing a blood elf.

I don't intend to debate this back and forth with you forever believe it or not. This point has been addressed and has been answered.

Are Blood Elves High Elves? Yes they are.

Are High Elves therefore playable? Yes they are.

Then that is all that matters. High Elves are an available playable option within World of Warcraft.

As I stated previously, what your goal is to change the developers mind regarding the importance of the faction comprising unique races. You are going to get nowhere if you instead wish to challenge the fundamental basis of why high elves were not added to the Alliance.

You are focusing on the wrong angle in other words.

"Accepted" by whom? Because I don't think the developers share that same sentiment, otherwise we wouldn't have groups of Alliance-aligned elves called high elves. Ion's original statement, which I assume it's what you're referencing here, could just mean that the blood elf race is the closest one can get to playing an actual high elf character.

They are not "accepted" by the pro High Elf community as the High Elves of the game. It is also reaching to suggest the developers don't share that sentiment when the one of the lead developer's reiterated that Blood Elves are High Elves and that the game reflects that on every level. The Alliance aligned elves are there because the story was written in such a way that tiny minority of such elves was confirmed to exist primarily in the city of Dalaran and they tend to show up when Dalaran is featured.

What do the Blood Elves have after all? They have the Sunwell, which is the foundation of the entire high elf race. They have the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, they have the city of Silvermoon, they have the navy, they have access to hawkstriders and dragonhawks, they have the Magisters, they have the Blood Knights, they have the Farstriders, they have the literal government of the high elves. Blood Elves are not the closest you can get to actual high elf character, they are actual high elves.

Again, you are attacking the problem from the wrong angle. You are seemingly attempting to prove high elves aren't playable. That is an argument you can never win because they are playable as Blood Elves.

If you truly want this you need to argue for the removal of the faction boundary or the introduction of some kind of treason questline that will allow you to swap factions. You need to argue for a world where everyone can group with everyone and factions don't matter.

[Aucald]

To break it down, some people are arguing that if they were able to make their Void Elf look like a High Elf then they could pretend it was a High Elf for roleplaying purposes. Others are clearly after the Blood Elf aesthetic and simply want to use the Void Elves as a vector to achieve that.

Personally, I think such an outcome is possible, but the only reason I believe it is possible is because one of the developers was asked whether it was possible and he replied that it was possible. And that was essentially all he said on the topic, that it was possible, hence it's possible. I believe all the other factors against it mean it is unlikely to happen however.

One of the factors is the one you've identified here, that they're still going to be Void Elves and we know where they came from. It therefore becomes a matter of personal perspective IF implemented. Some have argued that they are capable of ignoring all the little factors that will regularly remind the player they are a void elf such a modulated voice and the entropic embrace racial proccing and will be able to embrace being a Void Elf. And who knows, maybe they will be. But that isn't what the wider player base will do, to them a Void Elf is going to be a Void Elf.

I am also fairly confident that the wider pro High Elf movement is split on the topic, with most seeming to be against the possibility on the grounds that it wouldn't be the high elf exile they wanted and that it's provision would mean Blizzard would feel under further obligation to give them the high elves they seek, as they would just point at Void Elves and say go play that (which is a position I think they are at anyway) although plenty would clearly take the option to have access to the aesthetic.

RP can stretch in a lot of ways. Not really my cup o' tea as it were, but if you want to RP as a High Elven exile using Void Elf customization then more power to you, I suppose. I would say it's certainly possible such a customization could be added for Void Elves whenever passes are done for the Allied Races.

I don't think it's fair to either Void Elves or the High Elven exiles to strip away every nuance that makes Void Elves unique just so they can LARP as High Elves, though - neither from a lore perspective nor a gameplay one. I can't pretend to know what the masses are clambering for, but I prefer the playable races of WoW to retain what unique qualities they have from both an aesthetic sense and one grounded in a unique story in the narrative.