Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

There's always stuff like: clipping through, like ears, eyebrows, hairs not showing. Female NE/BE/VE look completely HAIRLESS.

Yeah I hope their next big iteration on character design is making Hairstyles work with hats/helmets. They'll probably have to get into the nitty gritty of their armor system for that though.

[shade3891]

Do void elf classes make sense if they would add a fair-skin (high elf) option?

[FlubberPuddy]

The blood elf story split from the high elf story the moment they let go of that moniker and their old customs to stop their suffering. Blood elves only share their past with the high elves, up to the point of the re-branding and subsequent schism. Everything after that is separate as "blood elf lore" and "high elf lore".

Crazy how someone so invested cannot see this. The developers literally took away the voice lines that say shit like "may the Eternal Sun guide us" from Alliance High Elf NPCs of today because they literally are not practicing the same culture as the Blood Elves of today.

They gave them Night Elven sayings while also taking out anything blatantly mentioning Night Elf society. Going one step further vs the Blood and High Elves in Telogrus Rift who literally repeat the exact same broadcast texts.

So the developers took the time to do give Alliance High Elf NPCs different voice lines, as well as making sure they're not literally repeating the exact same thing Night Elves do, and some people still think 'High Elves in Alliance are exactly like Blood Elves'. Pretty absurd.

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Do void elf classes make sense if they would add a fair-skin (high elf) option?

Every class on every race makes sense at this point. Our characters are incredibly unique individuals and not just a run of the mill soldier like in Vanilla.

They're also making a new starting area for Shadowlands and it will mean the original starting areas are now optional content. So you don't even have to be tied down to your original 'origin story' of simply doing menial stuff for your race's people and began already as an adventurous member of the Horde or Alliance.

[Black Goat]

Zandalari and Darkspear are both Trolls. Just as High Elves and Blood Elves are Elves. Both groups are the same race. Just like Kul'Tirans are Humans and so are Stormwindians too, both Human race.

Zandalari and Darkspeaker. Both Trolls. Both Horde races.

Kul'Tirans and Stormwind Humans. Both Humans. Both Alliance.

Blood Elves and former High Elves. Both Elves. Different factions, which is the ENTIRE PROBLEM.

Yeah, the almanac says High Elves were Alliance. That isn't telling us anything new, and lends favor to exactly the reason why Blizzard has not, and will not, give Alliance a facsimile Blood Elf. Or a Blood Elf with more customization. The High Elves formally withdrew from the Alliance faction, plain and simple. This issue is really not nearly as complex as some people pretend it is. There are opinions and there are facts. The facts pretty clearly outline why the Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves.

Slivers of hope, tidbits of information here and three, 3 High Elves in a cinematic together... None of those things outweigh the fact (not an opinion) that Blood Elves, High Elves by simply a different name, realigned with the Horde many years ago. There's not fourteen layers of nuance there with which to debate.

[FlubberPuddy]

Zandalari and Darkspeaker. Both Trolls. Both Horde races.

Kul'Tirans and Stormwind Humans. Both Humans. Both Alliance.

Blood Elves and former High Elves. Both Elves. Different factions, which is the ENTIRE PROBLEM.

Yeah, the almanac says High Elves were Alliance. That isn't telling us anything new, and lends favor to exactly the reason why Blizzard has not, and will not, give Alliance a facsimile Blood Elf. Or a Blood Elf with more customization. The High Elves formally withdrew from the Alliance faction, plain and simple. This issue is really not nearly as complex as some people pretend it is. There are opinions and there are facts. The facts pretty clearly outline why the Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves.

Slivers of hope, tidbits of information here and three, 3 High Elves in a cinematic together... None of those things outweigh the fact (not an opinion) that Blood Elves, High Elves by simply a different name, realigned with the Horde many years ago. There's not fourteen layers of nuance there with which to debate.

The Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves and that's fine. What the Alliance does have is unplayable High Elves which people are requesting be made playable.

You list some facts but leave out others, such as there have been and still are High Elves in the Alliance who never left the Alliance when their nation pulled out.

Nobody who wants Alliance High Elves gives a shit about Blood Elves. It's like trying to make someone care about playable Draenei when they're looking for Man'ari to be part of the Horde. Or better yet, no one cares that the ogre humans aka Kul'Tirans exist on Alliance when they're looking for Ogres on the Horde.

Same for all those Horde players that have been wanting Dragonmaw Orcs (though they'll most likely get the option in Shadowlands).

The basic premise is you and a few others are trying to make people care or settle with an existing option when clearly the people here making this request don't give a shit about the existing options.

[Black Goat]

The Alliance doesn't have playable Blood Elves and that's fine. What the Alliance does have is unplayable High Elves which people are requesting be made playable.

You list some facts but leave out others, such as there have been and still are High Elves in the Alliance who never left the Alliance when their nation pulled out.

The Alliance does have playable Blood Elves. They just adopted Void Magic, and became Void Elves.

Okay, how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Give me a number. Blizzard says the number is too low, and I'm eager to hear an informed individual explain to me why Blizzard is wrong.

[FlubberPuddy]

The Alliance does have playable Blood Elves. They just adopted Void Magic, and became Void Elves.

Okay, how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Give me a number. Blizzard says the number is too low, and I'm eager to hear an informed individual explain to me why Blizzard is wrong.

Nice strawman. When was it ever said Blizzard is wrong? All you have to do is have a current Alliance character and you can see the non-Void High Elves that still exist within it.

I'll leave you with that since you can just re-read all the arguments that you're trying to employ which aren't in good faith that I won't waste my time with anymore.

You have the whole thread to inform yourself, I don't need to do it for you.

[Shakana]

Do void elf classes make sense if they would add a fair-skin (high elf) option?

Well that's kinda what i have been suggesting and i would like for them to change a bit faces, expressions

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The Alliance does have playable Blood Elves. They just adopted Void Magic, and became Void Elves.

Okay, how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Give me a number. Blizzard says the number is too low, and I'm eager to hear an informed individual explain to me why Blizzard is wrong.

Simply put: With void elves they have proven that high elves are more than what they said. And even some devs said they can't argue with some people, because it's hard to contradict good arguments about the population.

[shade3891]

Would be cool if a questline was added to cleanse the Void Elfs of most of the void (corruption) and unlock a fair skin with regular hair-types.
Maybe when we ever have a Void(lord) focussed expansion and the whispers get louder

Like they did for the Night Warrior eyes questline.

[Aucald]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

[Black Goat]

Nice strawman. When was it ever said Blizzard is wrong? All you have to do is have a current Alliance character and you can see the non-Void High Elves that still exist within it.

I'll leave you with that since you can just re-read all the arguments that you're trying to employ which aren't in good faith that I won't waste my time with anymore.

You have the whole thread to inform yourself, I don't need to do it for you.

I'm sorry, where's the strawman? I simply asked you how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance since your ilk have often claimed Blizzard is incorrect on their evaluation of the High Elf population. Instead of answering, you appear to be defensive with a poor attitude.

I was hoping to hear something new and more convincing since the old opinions didn't quite hit the mark to convince me or Blizzard that there are enough left to form a meaningful player experience. I mean, a baker's dozen or so probably remain loyal. But surely no one thinks that's enough to create a player hub where PCs can make and create news ones, right?

Also, on the topic of previously employed arguments, didn't you just make one by falsely correlating Zandalari/Darkspear, Human/Kul'Tiran, and Blood/High Elf? So really, why are you so defensive?

Just because I have a different opinion on the matter doesn't mean I'm arguing in "bad faith". That just sounds like a defense mechanism to avoid meaningful discourse. So far you've accused me of a strawman and arguing disingenuously, and all I've asked is a simple question that you refuse to answer with a snarky attitude. So forgive me when I say this, but it seems like YOU are the one having a discussion with a crappy attitude and mindset.

Just because you're pro-HE doesn't afford you impunity.

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I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

I believe it would simply provide the "feel" that there's a Thalassian Elf playable on the Alliance that ISN'T a purple, tentacled creature.

Some favor the appearance, some favor the lore. The High Elf supporters appear to be divided on this front.

[Aucald]

I believe it would simply provide the "feel" that there's a Thalassian Elf playable on the Alliance that ISN'T a purple, tentacled creature.

Some favor the appearance, some favor the lore. The High Elf supporters appear to be divided on this front.

Well, the Void Elves are already "Thalassian," and I don't think the tentacles are going to go anywhere because the Elves in question would still be tainted by the Void - glowing purple when triggering their racial ability and so forth. But having a more or less normal skin coloration and such seems fine by me, if that's what people want. Though I have a Void Elf character solely for their Void mutations, I recognize everyone has their own predilections insofar as the look and style of their characters go.

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

To break it down, some people are arguing that if they were able to make their Void Elf look like a High Elf then they could pretend it was a High Elf for roleplaying purposes. Others are clearly after the Blood Elf aesthetic and simply want to use the Void Elves as a vector to achieve that.

Personally, I think such an outcome is possible, but the only reason I believe it is possible is because one of the developers was asked whether it was possible and he replied that it was possible. And that was essentially all he said on the topic, that it was possible, hence it's possible. I believe all the other factors against it mean it is unlikely to happen however.

One of the factors is the one you've identified here, that they're still going to be Void Elves and we know where they came from. It therefore becomes a matter of personal perspective IF implemented. Some have argued that they are capable of ignoring all the little factors that will regularly remind the player they are a void elf such a modulated voice and the entropic embrace racial proccing and will be able to embrace being a Void Elf. And who knows, maybe they will be. But that isn't what the wider player base will do, to them a Void Elf is going to be a Void Elf.

I am also fairly confident that the wider pro High Elf movement is split on the topic, with most seeming to be against the possibility on the grounds that it wouldn't be the high elf exile they wanted and that it's provision would mean Blizzard would feel under further obligation to give them the high elves they seek, as they would just point at Void Elves and say go play that (which is a position I think they are at anyway) although plenty would clearly take the option to have access to the aesthetic.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm sorry, where's the strawman? I simply asked you how many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance since your ilk have often claimed Blizzard is incorrect on their evaluation of the High Elf population. Instead of answering, you appear to be defensive with a poor attitude.

I was hoping to hear something new and more convincing since the old opinions didn't quite hit the mark to convince me or Blizzard that there are enough left to form a meaningful player experience. I mean, a baker's dozen or so probably remain loyal. But surely no one thinks that's enough to create a player hub where PCs can make and create news ones, right?

Also, on the topic of previously employed arguments, didn't you just make one by falsely correlating Zandalari/Darkspear, Human/Kul'Tiran, and Blood/High Elf? So really, why are you so defensive?

Just because I have a different opinion on the matter doesn't mean I'm arguing in "bad faith". That just sounds like a defense mechanism to avoid meaningful discourse. So far you've accused me of a strawman and arguing disingenuously, and all I've asked is a simple question that you refuse to answer with a snarky attitude. So forgive me when I say this, but it seems like YOU are the one having a discussion with a crappy attitude and mindset.

Just because you're pro-HE doesn't afford you impunity.

It's not about impunity because firstly the amount of in-game models within the game doesn't define the literal population of each of the races that reside in the WoW universe. If you came in with that as your starting argument it's already in bad faith. Pure and simple.

Otherwise Stormwind, a city that's supposed to be so freaking huge only has like what 40 homes and 100-200 people living in there?

That's why it's a strawman and an obvious one at that. Nobody should taking in-game NPC numbers as literal representation, what they do represent is a percentage of population in a game that literally couldn't run if it had to display the actual amount of NPCs that reside in the zones we explore.

That you throw out a dozen or so as number of High Elves continues to show the bad faith arguments. There was someone who painstakingly took the time to create some album with unique named High Elf NPCs and it numbered in over the 100s.

Your posts continue to be in bad faith on the grounds that you're not here to actually have your mind changed and that's easily seen from the way you post.

[Obelisk Kai]

It is not a problem, because it's not available. High elf supporters do not want nor care about playing a blood elf.

I don't intend to debate this back and forth with you forever believe it or not. This point has been addressed and has been answered.

Are Blood Elves High Elves? Yes they are.

Are High Elves therefore playable? Yes they are.

Then that is all that matters. High Elves are an available playable option within World of Warcraft.

As I stated previously, what your goal is to change the developers mind regarding the importance of the faction comprising unique races. You are going to get nowhere if you instead wish to challenge the fundamental basis of why high elves were not added to the Alliance.

You are focusing on the wrong angle in other words.

"Accepted" by whom? Because I don't think the developers share that same sentiment, otherwise we wouldn't have groups of Alliance-aligned elves called high elves. Ion's original statement, which I assume it's what you're referencing here, could just mean that the blood elf race is the closest one can get to playing an actual high elf character.

They are not "accepted" by the pro High Elf community as the High Elves of the game. It is also reaching to suggest the developers don't share that sentiment when the one of the lead developer's reiterated that Blood Elves are High Elves and that the game reflects that on every level. The Alliance aligned elves are there because the story was written in such a way that tiny minority of such elves was confirmed to exist primarily in the city of Dalaran and they tend to show up when Dalaran is featured.

What do the Blood Elves have after all? They have the Sunwell, which is the foundation of the entire high elf race. They have the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, they have the city of Silvermoon, they have the navy, they have access to hawkstriders and dragonhawks, they have the Magisters, they have the Blood Knights, they have the Farstriders, they have the literal government of the high elves. Blood Elves are not the closest you can get to actual high elf character, they are actual high elves.

Again, you are attacking the problem from the wrong angle. You are seemingly attempting to prove high elves aren't playable. That is an argument you can never win because they are playable as Blood Elves.

If you truly want this you need to argue for the removal of the faction boundary or the introduction of some kind of treason questline that will allow you to swap factions. You need to argue for a world where everyone can group with everyone and factions don't matter.

[Aucald]

To break it down, some people are arguing that if they were able to make their Void Elf look like a High Elf then they could pretend it was a High Elf for roleplaying purposes. Others are clearly after the Blood Elf aesthetic and simply want to use the Void Elves as a vector to achieve that.

Personally, I think such an outcome is possible, but the only reason I believe it is possible is because one of the developers was asked whether it was possible and he replied that it was possible. And that was essentially all he said on the topic, that it was possible, hence it's possible. I believe all the other factors against it mean it is unlikely to happen however.

One of the factors is the one you've identified here, that they're still going to be Void Elves and we know where they came from. It therefore becomes a matter of personal perspective IF implemented. Some have argued that they are capable of ignoring all the little factors that will regularly remind the player they are a void elf such a modulated voice and the entropic embrace racial proccing and will be able to embrace being a Void Elf. And who knows, maybe they will be. But that isn't what the wider player base will do, to them a Void Elf is going to be a Void Elf.

I am also fairly confident that the wider pro High Elf movement is split on the topic, with most seeming to be against the possibility on the grounds that it wouldn't be the high elf exile they wanted and that it's provision would mean Blizzard would feel under further obligation to give them the high elves they seek, as they would just point at Void Elves and say go play that (which is a position I think they are at anyway) although plenty would clearly take the option to have access to the aesthetic.

RP can stretch in a lot of ways. Not really my cup o' tea as it were, but if you want to RP as a High Elven exile using Void Elf customization then more power to you, I suppose. I would say it's certainly possible such a customization could be added for Void Elves whenever passes are done for the Allied Races.

I don't think it's fair to either Void Elves or the High Elven exiles to strip away every nuance that makes Void Elves unique just so they can LARP as High Elves, though - neither from a lore perspective nor a gameplay one. I can't pretend to know what the masses are clambering for, but I prefer the playable races of WoW to retain what unique qualities they have from both an aesthetic sense and one grounded in a unique story in the narrative.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

To me it's a natural progression of the fact that the developers themselves appear to focus more on the looks of a race rather than its background. Hence Wildhammer will be lumped with Bronzebeards and given tattoo options (the appearance will 100% be given, not necessarily the background). Same for the other upcoming customizations in Shadowlands (Dark Trolls literally nonexistent to now being as infinite as new toons made), the focus is simply on appearances.

So I think more of the conversation has moved toward, "well hopefully Void Elf customization includes High Elves" also because the developers themselves have said it's possible and that more recently the purpose of the increased customizations are to increase variance within a given race option.

No longer are Trolls simply shades of blue/green/purple now they're going to have the options of black/tan/brown/white. Same for Undead, instead of simply mainly pale tints now we're getting browns/murky greens and Dwarves are getting dark skin tones. Rumors of Blood Elves receiving dark skin colors abound.

So what we see is that the purpose of increased customization is "breaking the mold" in terms of its options relative to what was a sort of pattern within the races.

You couldn't make a brown troll before, now you can. You couldn't make a Forsaken that wasn't pale, now you can. So on so forth.

Logically it leads people to think with the dev commentary and recent customizations that this may be the way they introduce the High Elves if not as a stand-alone race (because again the focus is appearance rather than racials/backgrounds).

I still prefer a stand-alone High Elf race, but I'll always take what I can get in a given moment.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, I think you're purposely being obtuse about what I said. I literally gave examples such as other races that would fulfill race requests players have had forever and how if the shoe was on the other foot (Mag'har Alliance Orcs or Alliance Undead that could be Paladins), you would see the same pushback from Horde players.

Because it's not simply the race option itself, but the faction it is relegated to as well especially in this game where the developers have made it apparent that faction pride should exist.

And in the case of a current example (Void Elves being able to look like Dark Rangers) you offer no counterpoint to the claim I made that Horde players who want to play Dark Rangers are exclaiming around all over social media that "Dark Rangers now exist finally!" because someone would have to be completely out of their mind to simply focus on the look of the race and not what faction it is in as well when regarding the player requested playable race options in a game where the devs (again) put faction pride to the forefront.

You're focusing on the in-game race perspective, I'm talking about the actual players of the game. "What these groups show is that politics is functionally irrelevant" is showing you're not speaking about player faction pride, but the in-game races and the decisions those races made politically. I am not talking about this from an in-game perspective at all, so I don't understand why you'd bring that in - it is not part of the argument I made.

In regards to the examples you gave, both Mag'har Orcs and Lightforged Undead are or would be variants of existing races rather than duplicates and thus would not be identical to existing races and would therefore follow the Void Elf/Nightborne precedent of being a variant of a race on the other faction, but not identical. Had it been confirmed to be happening there would have been pushback, but it didn't happen.

In regards to Dark Rangers, I believe most players agitating for that want it as a class, not as a race. As such I disregarded it as were a Dark Ranger class to be introduced the Alliance would get a Dark Ranger option somehow. The example was therefore too confused in my opinion to really discuss. It still is.

In regards to faction pride, high elves are as much a part of the Alliance as Ogres are of the Horde i.e. barely if at all. Associations forged in the minds of players who got through the RTS's are important, but they also reflect the state of the game story as it was written nearly two decades ago. Things have moved on. Those players who perceive the high elves as an important, contributing member of the Alliance are entitled to that perspective, but a perspective based upon nostalgia cannot trump the reality of the game world as written.

You keep using this argument but Nightborne destroy it. They are the "purple elf" of the Horde while the Alliance had always had "the purple elves" of the game. Therefore it should be no different to introduce in similar appearance the High Elves to Alliance that can be the counter to the "Fair Elves" on Horde.

I have never understood the logic of this retort. Nightborne are clearly as distinct from a Night Elf as a Void Elf is from a Blood Elf. To accept the argument that Nightborne destroy faction differentiation I would have to accept that despite their obvious differences, Nightborne are identical to Night Elves. Once I accept that, the corollary is that despite their clearly obvious differences, Void Elves are identical to Blood/High Elves. At which point, logic would dictate you have High Elves and have won.

It seems disingenuous to argue that Nightborne are identical (and thus destroy the faction wall) whilst rejecting Void Elves for being too different, despite Void Elves being as different from High Elves as Nightborne are from Night Elves.

The reality is either both are identical to their parents, in which case you have authentic high elves, or both are different in substance, in which case the faction wall is maintained.

When you're playing a Nightborne you do not have the "core part of the Alliance fantasy" as their culture and society and appearances and racials are not copy-paste from Night Elves. Similar so, a High Elf on the Alliance - should it have been as an Allied Race like Nightborne would not carry those same things as to preserve "a core part of Horde fantasy".

Leaving aside the Nightborne are genuinely physically different from Night Elves, the Nightborne also have a complex backstory of being locked in a city for ten thousand years, thereby preserving a section of the old Night Elf civilization before they embraced druidism. We therefore have a radically different culture which is supported by lore and a lore based explanation as to why they are physically different.

None of these factors apply to the exiles, who separated less than fifteen years ago from the other Blood Elves (and as Lorash Sunweaver proved, Blood Elves can live for millenia so fifteen years is essentially nothing), who are still physically dependant upon the Sunwell to sate their addiction and who are not concentrated in high numbers in a massive, majestic city but are instead scattered across the world in exceedingly low numbers.

This argument you use here fails all the time because Nightborne show how you can put another purple elf on the opposite side and still preserve a core faction fantasy that already exists on one side.

The irony with this statement is that I agree. And Blizzard did do this. They took some high elves, subjected them to an outside energy force (the nightwell/being bombarded with void energy) which provoked physical changes (both Nightborne and Void Elves have changed skin tones, Nightborne have less muscular bodies than Night Elves, Void Elves have tentacles). You cite Nightborne as a precedent and yet seem resistant to the fact that the precedent was employed to give the Alliance a high elf variant of their very own.

There's two High Elf options in the game now, just like how there's two Night Elf options in the game. Again, if you wanna talk about "prioritizing uniqueness of each faction" why is Horde allowed to get a purple elf when Alliance seem incapable of receiving a fair skinned one?

Perhaps because skin colour is not the determining factor for the Elven races? And they aren't all purple by the way, they actually like across quite a wide spectrum.

Night Elven skin tones are quite vivid and warm. This is reflective of them based on a mix of Wood Elven and Dark Elven tropes.

Nightborne skin tones are far more limited and severe, this is because Blizzard had a particular look in mind for the Nightborne and wished to keep them within that narrow band.

Void Elves are blue/purple because blue and purple are colours humans tend to associate with darkness, and their entire motif is void focused.

Nowhere have I ever said that Alliance High Elves need to be a copy paste of Horde Elves and this entire thread has focused on differentiating the culture/aesthetics/racials/society of a hypothetical Alliance High Elf Allied Race.

But you don't have to say it, that is inevitably what they will be. That is what they are. They are just political exiles from Silvermoon, as different from an elf on Sunstrider Isle as a Defias Human is different from an elf in Darkshire. It is simply a question of politics. They are culturally, politically and aesthetically identical.

The idea of them being culturally different is a non-starter really. It's such an inorganic suggestion, one forced to answer a protestation against the realisation of the goal of a playable high elf. Them being culturally identical isn't a challenge to overcome, its a simple matter of fact. They aren't going to create a new culture wholesale simply to justify their inclusion as a playable option.

The thing you always seem to be hovering around but not saying it is this: Horde is allowed to have Purple and Fair skin Elves, and Alliance cannot have a fair skin Elf. The only thing unique about the Blood Elves is that they have fair skin, and taking that away makes them less unique. But it's ok for there to be 3 different types of Purple Elves.

No, I am saying that the Alliance should not be permitted to have an identical elf to the Blood Elves. Were the Elves to have been zapped by the light and ended up glowing as white as a hot sun, that would have been a similar level of differentiation to that achieved by the Void Elves in terms of aesthetics, potential culture and racial destiny. But they weren't zapped by the light, they were zapped by the void.

That's really how you've been coming off as to me, because every time you try to bring up arguments against adding High Elves, it doesn't work when you apply it to Nightborne.

And as I have hopefully illustrated above, using the Nightborne is not a great counter-argument.

And for arguments to be considered as convincing they generally have to apply across various comparable situations. Your focus seems to always be on simply keeping Alliance High Elves out of the game, which in itself makes no sense as you've previously shown to not care for whether other known player requests get into the game or not.

How does it make no sense? If a race is already playable for an existing faction, then that should be respected. For example if Ogres were to go to the Alliance in some unexpected twist, I would accept that, argue that Ogres are now an Alliance race, and that those in the Horde who were having difficulty with that choice based on their historic attachments would have to get over it.

Similarly when Vulpera were hypothetical and available for each faction, whilst I argued for their addition as a Horde allied race, I was clear that that was not a given and that those arguing for them to be added to the Alliance should be heard as it could go that way and that was a fair position for those players to have until the moment Vulpera were declared to be a Horde race.

As long as a race is not playable within either faction, then players of both factions are quite welcome to agitate for their addition. But once a race is added to a faction, that should be accepted as being a part of that faction from that moment onwards.

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I don't think it's fair to either Void Elves or the High Elven exiles to strip away every nuance that makes Void Elves unique just so they can LARP as High Elves, though - neither from a lore perspective nor a gameplay one. I can't pretend to know what the masses are clambering for, but I prefer the playable races of WoW to retain what unique qualities they have from both an aesthetic sense and one grounded in a unique story in the narrative.

Which is my logic as well.

The possibility of the skins exists, because a wow developer said the possibility exists. But I do believe that sometime later this year when they sit down and go over Void Elf customization expansion, that they will prefer to expand the Void Elf fantasy rather than use it as a vector for an ersatz high elf.

And the precedent for that of course is the existence of Void Elves in the first place. If the need to give the high elf variant to the Alliance it's own aesthetic so as to not infringe on the integrity of the Horde faction, why would they have created Void Elves at all?

No, I think they will decide to explore the Void Elf fantasy to it's fullest when the time comes. There is a lovecraftian fantasy that some players I am sure would really like (such as those who were suggesting K'thir as an allied race) and Void Elves should be used to further that fantasy. There is a perfectly good race for a traditional high elf fantasy in the game right now.

[Ielenia]

I don't intend to debate this back and forth with you forever believe it or not. This point has been addressed and has been answered.

And your answer has been analyzed and shown to not be satisfactory due to a number of issues with it.

Are Blood Elves High Elves? Yes they are.

Are High Elves therefore playable? Yes they are.

Then that is all that matters. High Elves are an available playable option within World of Warcraft.

That's not how it works. High elves are not playable. Blood elves are. That's like saying the Zandalari trolls were playable since day 1 since they are trolls, and trolls are playable, or that wildhammer dwarves were playable since day 1 since dwarves are playable.

Your argument does not work because when applied to all the other similar situations in the game, it falls short.

As I stated previously, what your goal is to change the developers mind regarding the importance of the faction comprising unique races.

The "unique races" argument went out the window and ran over by a truck with the addition of Allied Races.

They are not "accepted" by the pro High Elf community as the High Elves of the game. It is also reaching to suggest the developers don't share that sentiment when the one of the lead developer's reiterated that Blood Elves are High Elves and that the game reflects that on every level.

If the developers wouldn't be showing high elves time and again on the Alliance if it wasn't the case.

The Alliance aligned elves are there because the story was written in such a way that tiny minority of such elves was confirmed to exist primarily in the city of Dalaran and they tend to show up when Dalaran is featured.

Dalaran was not involved back in TBC when the Amani trolls threatened Silvermoon, but the high elves were there. Dalaran also wasn't involved in the second siege on Orgrimmar, but the high elves were there.

What do the Blood Elves have after all? They have the Sunwell, which is the foundation of the entire high elf race. They have the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, they have the city of Silvermoon, they have the navy, they have access to hawkstriders and dragonhawks, they have the Magisters, they have the Blood Knights, they have the Farstriders, they have the literal government of the high elves.

To all of that, I say: so what? High elves also have their magisters, farstriders and dragonhawks. 'Having a city/kingdom' is meaningless since gnomes and worgen don't have theirs anymore. And the blood elves only govern the blood elves. High elves do not follow Silvermoon's government. That's like saying Stormwind humans govern over the Defias. Or that the Eredar govern the draenei since the Eredar control Argus. Or that the Iron Horde governed over the Frostwolves, in AU Draenor.

If you truly want this you need to argue for the removal of the faction boundary

I don't want the factions to end. I just want the Alliance-aligned high elves to be playable.

or the introduction of some kind of treason questline that will allow you to swap factions.

We do not want to play as blood elves. If we wanted to play as an "Alliance blood elf", this thread would've ended when blood elves were added to the Alliance in the form of void elves.

[DeicideUH]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

I think most people accepted that "high elf customization" is the most likelyt bargain option right now, as no allied races seem to be coming for next couple years at least.

Personally, I don't think giving void elves "high elf customization" is a good way to settle this. Part of the fanbase will be appeased, but many will feel it's not enough, as they want more high elf lore or would feel cheated since looking like a high elf negates the reason why they stated they didn't do high elves in the first place.

To me, the best solution (barring making high elves playable) is to provide three things:
- More void elf customization that still makes them void elves, but more varied than shades of blue;
- Improve void elf lore, to make them more interesting and simpathetic, as well as more varied in culture;
- Integrate void elf with high elf lore, either by creating a compelling story that turns the later into the former, or by integrating their societies akin to gilnean/worgen relationship (in which only the later are playable but their lore is now tied together and advances together).

With that, Blizzard would provide three pillars to help settle the requests: more appeal and variation to void elf appearance, more empathy towards void elves, and the continuation of high elf lore in some form.