Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Except, like I said, you're not doing this to foster good discussion. Because, no matter how often people explain you how such arguments like "blood elf is high elf" and "go Horde" and "low population" and "word of god" don't work, you continue to repeat the same arguments, ad nauseum, like you don't even acknowledge what people have told you before.

Because word of god is not debunked 'by what people say'. Nothing a fan says is ever going to be as good as what a developer says on the topic. That is elementary. Wishing the game was different is not equivalent to demonstrating it is different.

It's hard to defend our positions and opinions when the other side just plugs their ears when we are presenting our case.

Your case has historically consisted of you inventing things, for example the idea that Alleria had the void elf transformation ability before she ate the heart of a dark naaru. Or the idea that blood elves can defect to the high elves to boost their numbers. Scenarios you have offered no evidence for and yet you treat as viable hypotheses.

What you want is for Blizzard to change their minds. That's fine. But what you cannot argue is that the game world right now reflects your ideal position. It categorically does not. If you want them to change their minds, at least acknowledge they'd have to change things and not that they would come to understand that the game as it is supports your position.

[Aucald]

Shooting down people's opinions with which you disagree is the point of forums such as these. People's opinions are not sacrosanct, and if you are unable to defend those opinions then perhaps there wasn't much of a case there to begin with.

The point of these forums? No, not really. Discussion and debate, certainly - but I think it's bad form to continually rebuke other people if you've made your own opinion known (multiple times). People are always going to disagree with you (the general "you"), and you can confront them 24/7 and they'll still do it, they'll just move the conversation elsewhere if you won't allow them to state their own views in relative peace. Given that this thread exists to consolidate threads and posts on a given topic, it necessarily needs to allow multiple points of view to co-exist peaceably, even if they don't necessarily agree with one another.

Opinions are not sacrosanct, but neither can they be judged objectively due to their nature as opinions. People aren't required to defend their opinions in order to have them, nor should they feel forced to unless they wish to. I hope this is not your actual aim here, as opposed to reasoned and civil discussion and debate at the topic at hand.

[Obelisk Kai]

The point of these forums? No, not really. Discussion and debate, certainly - but I think it's bad form to continually rebuke other people if you've made your own opinion known (multiple times). People are always going to disagree with you (the general "you"), and you can confront them 24/7 and they'll still do it, they'll just move the conversation elsewhere if you won't allow them to state their own views in relative peace. Given that this thread exists to consolidate threads and posts on a given topic, it necessarily needs to allow multiple points of view to co-exist peaceably, even if they don't necessarily agree with one another.

Opinions are not sacrosanct, but neither can they be judged objectively due to their nature as opinions. People aren't required to defend their opinions in order to have them, nor should they feel forced to unless they wish to. I hope this is not your actual aim here, as opposed to reasoned and civil discussion and debate at the topic at hand.

Given the nature of this topic is highly contentious, debate is to be expected. People are of course to leave their opinions as you say. I am equally free to comment on their posts. The choice is therefore up to the individual to respond and defend their position or to not respond and simply let their statement stand.

I would of course regard defending their position and outlining their point of view as to why I am wrong as 'reasoned and civil discussion', as would my inevitable counter posts to their counter posts. That is the nature of discourse and anyone who chooses to respond is de facto choosing to debate. If they engage with debate, I will interrogate their opinions further and defend my own. That is again the nature of discourse.

As to the continuance of this topic, I am well aware that some individuals believe I comment here too much, that I am not leaving them alone to their own discussion on how high elves would work, rather than should they be added. Some even point out that that was the original idea behind this thread and that should be respected (a point I reject of course, if the entire megathread was doomed to be framed by the Original poster's intentions then another thread should have been selected as the basis for the megathread and not this one).

The truth is this debate ended the moment Blizzard opted to add Void Elves. It has been done for two years, as the chances of them adding a second thalassian option to the Alliance is virtually nil. The topic continues , not because there is a genuine hope of success based on current facts, but through the idea of virtuous persistence. That if they keep asking, keep demonstrating, keep discussing, keep doing fan art, keep at it in other words, that they can get Blizzard to change their minds. That is the right of course. But similarly, those of us who care enough to disagree with them on this point are allowed to challenge this persistence.

[Aucald]

Given the nature of this topic is highly contentious, debate is to be expected. People are of course to leave their opinions as you say. I am equally free to comment on their posts. The choice is therefore up to the individual to respond and defend their position or to not respond and simply let their statement stand.

I would of course regard defending their position and outlining their point of view as to why I am wrong as 'reasoned and civil discussion', as would my inevitable counter posts to their counter posts. That is the nature of discourse and anyone who chooses to respond is de facto choosing to debate. If they engage with debate, I will interrogate their opinions further and defend my own. That is again the nature of discourse.

As to the continuance of this topic, I am well aware that some individuals believe I comment here too much, that I am not leaving them alone to their own discussion on how high elves would work, rather than should they be added. Some even point out that that was the original idea behind this thread and that should be respected (a point I reject of course, if the entire megathread was doomed to be framed by the Original poster's intentions then another thread should have been selected as the basis for the megathread and not this one).

You are of course free to provide your opinion and counter those views with which you disagree, that's never been in contention. This issue, unfortunately, follows on the heels of the next quoted section:

The truth is this debate ended the moment Blizzard opted to add Void Elves. It has been done for two years, as the chances of them adding a second thalassian option to the Alliance is virtually nil. The topic continues , not because there is a genuine hope of success based on current facts, but through the idea of virtuous persistence. That if they keep asking, keep demonstrating, keep discussing, keep doing fan art, keep at it in other words, that they can get Blizzard to change their minds. That is the right of course. But similarly, those of us who care enough to disagree with them on this point are allowed to challenge this persistence.

This is the were the contention lies, and is in keeping with the essence of the admonition above. For you this is true, but for the purposes of this thread and the population it houses, it is not and further cannot be true. There are people here who disagree with this assessment, and disagree with the statements of the developers of their faces, and they have every right to do so - indeed their right is no more or less sacrosanct as your own. So if your goal is to attempt to stifle any and all opinion contrary to this, you're crossing the line between stating an opinion to trying to actively curtail discussion, and that is not a workable approach. We both know people rise to the notion of having their opinions challenged, it becomes a problem when any and all instances of it are met with undue scorn.

This isn't up for debate - it's quite literally how the thread must function to be inclusive and welcoming to all who wish to discuss the topic. Consider it an extended Mod Warning applicable to everyone participating in the thread.

[Doffen]

High Elves - Alleria skins for Void Elves

That we don't have this customization in game already is a crime. I don't care where they make it available, horde or alliance, but just make it a customization option available for playable elves. Biggest hope they make it for the "40 extra customizations" they have said Blood Elves will get.

[Starla]

That we don't have this customization in game already is a crime. I don't care where they make it available, horde or alliance, but just make it a customization option available for playable elves. Biggest hope they make it for the "40 extra customizations" they have said Blood Elves will get.

How is it a 'crime'? NPCs and their customizations have mostly been unobtainable for the playable races.

[Shakana]

That we don't have this customization in game already is a crime. I don't care where they make it available, horde or alliance, but just make it a customization option available for playable elves. Biggest hope they make it for the "40 extra customizations" they have said Blood Elves will get.

Really is a shame.

[Doffen]

How is it a 'crime'? NPCs and their customizations have mostly been unobtainable for the playable races.

Yeah, and isn't that a "crime"? I think so. And please don't take it like I am angry about it, I just really want it :P

[Shakana]

How is it a 'crime'? NPCs and their customizations have mostly been unobtainable for the playable races.

All races. And also I feel like we players never get the good stuff. They barely in years even added new hairs whatsoever to blood elfes. Then they come with this amazing new hair styles on void elves.
Which finally they understood we want more customization.

[Doffen]

Really is a shame.

Yeah. But there is hope now. Could be me liking women that looks like that irl too, hair and all. But let's not talk about my preferences in women any further.

[Neverafter]

There should be tattoo parlors next to every barber shop in Azeroth

[Broflake]

Because of the long and extensive lore of politics for that race on both factions, compared to Pandaren, who have one opening experience with the end bit briefly showing how one group picks its faction and after that nothing much in terms of hostility, identity, definition.

The Thalassians have different sets and colour schemes not to mention extensive lore of their race on both factions during wow's lifetime, I would say that qualifies as much more interesting.

Except the same can be said for the Pandaren. Let alone that this turns their race neutral, and stagnates the entire storyline for the blood elves.
The high elf lore is literally the blood elf lore. There is no reasont o make a copy of an existing race from a game design perspective.

[FlubberPuddy]

How is it a 'crime'? NPCs and their customizations have mostly been unobtainable for the playable races.

It's a 'crime' because we the players are now (and have been for a while) the stars of the game. We're literally considered special as we're going through the Shadowlands because apparently we (the players) are the only ones who are able to be "maw-walkers" or w/e.

We're past the point where the majority of the NPCs are these grand figures and we're mere foot soldiers.

We're now, at the very least, just as grand as those NPCs if not grander. Hence, such a 'crime'.

[Aucald]

There should be tattoo parlors next to every barber shop in Azeroth

Class and race-specific tattoos would be a really interesting customization option in WoW, if you ask me.

[ThatsOurEric]

Not sure why it seems to be a hard concept to grasp for some of the people in this thread.

Because there is no difference, and it's just sad at this point for people to think there is.

[Broflake]

Not sure why it seems to be a hard concept to grasp for some of the people in this thread.

Probably because a Zandalari troll and a Darkspear troll are two different races with two different appearances.
Where as blood elves and high elves are the same race, with the same appearance.
I don't understand why you feel the need to display contempt for those who disagree with you, but the fact of the matter is that your request is something that at the fundamental level, is already available through the Horde.

There is no difference between the two, and the willful intent to suggest there is, is simply not an accurate portrayal.

[Shakana]

Class and race-specific tattoos would be a really interesting customization option in WoW, if you ask me.

I would love it (and then i would not be so annoyed that everyone bashes my dh for having tattoos and being edgy )

But i would like more customizations around runes and scars, runes for some classes makes a lot of sense, specially dks, mages, etc
Like just being an aesthetic visual but that rune would in roleplay be something they would consider like "this is my protection against X" "This gives me strength for X".

And same with necklaces that have the tradition to protect you when having symbols about your race, class, etc.

Scars i would like to have some, we have been involved in fights for so long. I think we deserve some marks about and when we were in battle, why just using a title, when we could "show scars" right?

- - - Updated - - -

Probably because a Zandalari troll and a Darkspear troll are two different races with two different appearances.
Where as blood elves and high elves are the same race, with the same appearance.
I don't understand why you feel the need to display contempt for those who disagree with you, but the fact of the matter is that your request is something that at the fundamental level, is already available through the Horde.

There is no difference between the two, and the willful intent to suggest there is, is simply not an accurate portrayal.

There is many differences between the two that are not aesthetic but spiritual. And can we please not start this path on conversations? Broflake if you want to see conversations about that go to the beginning of page 700. Have fun.

[Strippling]

--- snip ---

- - - Updated - - -

So is Alleria. Yet you see her a normal High Elf talking with her sister in BfA at Lordaeron.

Alleria in her "normal high elf form" is a blood elf with blue eyes and a facial tattoo. That's it. And if they add these customization options to blood elves in Shadowlands then her "normal high elf form" would be a "blood elf form". Blizz can obviously do whatever they like, but I find it unlikely that they'll allow void elves to be customized to look more like their parent race when the very notion of ARs is to offer a level of differentiation. The void elf thematic is "the void" so ideally their customizations should ultimately reflect this void thematic, in my opinion.

I hate discussing this. I really do. I had enough in this same page. "but my opinion is better than yours and makes more sense". No it isn't. Don't answer me why you think yours is better and mine is trash. Just accept that is what I like. Even if that means not be even comment and read.

I didn't say my opinion was better than yours, I simply offered my opinion in response to yours.

Blizzard has also themselves making the horde more interesting. While basically nothing new happens on alliance. Their creativity it's stopped for many things as they tend to focus on horde so much.

That's not a fact, that's your subjective opinion. In my opinion Kul Tiras was a far more interesting levelling experience than Zandalar.

Mod Edit: Removed unnecessary commentary.

[Strippling]

The possibility exists, as Afrasiabi said the possibility exists, and it may occur when the Void Elves get their customization pass.

However, it is exceptionally unlikely because of your well-described rationale here.

The skin tone is not a flaw, it's a feature. It is the most obvious difference between a Void Elf and a Blood/high elf. In 2013 Ion suggested high elves as a potential sub-race once the sub-race system came in, and he did so off handedly. Once they sat down and worked through the pros and cons of that suggestion, they saw how it would undermine the faction wall and created Void Elves as a substitute.

Once they sit down again to decide what to give Void Elves in THEIR customization pass, I suspect that making Void Elves look like Blood Elves will run into the same obstacles the initial high elf suggestion hit when they debated whether to add them and they simply won't do anything like giving high elf like skins to Void Elves.

Instead, and I agree with you, they should lean into what a Void Elf is to move the two groups further apart, rather than trying to erase the difference between them. After all, it was preserving a measure of difference that led them to create Void Elves in the first place.

For all the talk of 'ending this topic' recently, the Void Elf customization pass is the true ending. Once it comes and goes, there will be nothing more to be said as they will have made their intentions clear regarding how they want the Void Elves to be seen. Sometime in 2021 will be the moment of truth for the possibility. I consider the changes of a distinct exile allied race to be essentially zero at this point based upon everything they have ever said and done on this topic, so Void Elf customization is the last chance saloon in a way.

But until then we have the fun of the Blood Elf customization pass to dissect, to see what has been given (and withheld) from Blood Elves.

Agreed. I personally don't understand the purpose of trying to "de-void" the void elves. Doing so only makes them closer to being a blood elf, which would only hurt the faction boundaries that Blizz have stated they wish to uphold. They've stated on many an occasion that the Horde vs Alliance is a key aspect of the game and they don't wish to peel away the boundaries that separate these two factions (of which includes each faction housing unique races distinct to the opposing faction).

[Shakana]

That's not a fact, that's your subjective opinion. In my opinion Kul Tiras was a far more interesting levelling experience than Zandalar.

And many of your opinions are subjective too. As mine is, and as the other person is, and everyone else, even on blizzard is.

Agreed. I personally don't understand the purpose of trying to "de-void" the void elves. Doing so only makes them closer to being a blood elf,

Subjective.