Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Benomatic]

As I've said before many times, those who want high elves on the alliance want a complete faction experience, same goes for playable ogres on horde.





Why include NPC alliance races in the faction and not make them playable? it makes no sense.

[Obelisk Kai]

More proof of how until TBC the High elves and Quel'thalas was a core Alliance territory. (It has a boat to Valgarde, an Alliance territory)
Things are different now but that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard took a core Alliance race and gave it to the enemy faction.

Using google search I was able to find a source for this image on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...aconcept_maps/

The Original poster annotated the map as 'A concept of the eastern kingdom after the WC3 events'. For context, the Blood/High Elves were not a part of the Alliance at this point, after the third war and prior to Kael linking up with Garithos in the Frozen Throne, as they had left the Alliance following the conclusion of Warcraft 2. However, neither were they hostile to the Alliance. A transportation link to Valgarde seems very plausible for those Elves who had business in Northrend, such as trade or diplomacy. But Quel'thalas was not a core Alliance territory in the immediate aftermath of Warcraft 3, and had not been considered as such since the aftermath of Warcraft 2.

It is well known that the faction system as we know it today was not settled upon until October 2001 and was a response to the success of Dark Age of Camelot. The developers enjoyed that system and felt the Horde-Alliance split would facilitate a team based, them vs us approach to PVP. PRIOR to that switch, they were approaching the world using an Everquest model.
In Everquest, everyone can group with everyone regardless of their race. High Elves, who are hostile to Dark Elves and vice versa, have no bother working and questing together as players. However, approaching an NPC of that city whilst playing one of those races would led to you being attacked. A Dark Elf approaching the High Elf city of Felwithe would not live very long.

You can easily see that Orcs, Trolls and Tauren settlements would have been friendly to each other... Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes would have been friendly to each other and Undead would probably have been hated by everyone but they would have functioned as a sort of 'hard mode' for some people, only able to do business in the Undercity. The Night Elves similarly would likely have been aloof and hostile to everyone.
Once they abandoned the Everquest approach in favour of a more structured faction system, they had to add the Forsaken to the Horde to justify their existence because they couldn't be in a faction on their own, ditto the Night Elves.

Furthermore, there has been no evidence that the high elves were ever considered as a starter player race in World of Warcraft. The Warcraft diary talks about how Naga were definitely planned and ultimately rejected for reasons we are all familiar with. And it talks about rumours that they might have to cut the Undead race due to meet their deadlines (an idea they ferociously resisted) but in none of the interviews or sources dealing with the development of the base game was any indication ever given to high elves being seen as a future alliance race. In fact, had the intent been to add them to the Alliance but they had run out of time or space to add them, then their addition in the burning crusade would have been logical, indeed, Ogres for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance were the predicted races to be announced once rumours appeared that two new races would be added to the game in TBC.

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Arguments are exhausted when they're repeated ad nauseum despite being countered time and again. You literally bring nothing new to this discussion. You just return every now and then and bring back all the same tired arguments, over and over, no matter how many people counter your arguments. You just ignore them and eventually move on, only to return some time later with, again, the exact same arguments. You don't even vary or change them even a little. You bring the exact same arguments.

Since you have not countered the arguments provided, they have not been exhausted according to your own definition.

Ok. I accept that. There are enough physiological differences between the two. But, still, like I said: physiological differences are no longer a necessity. BEs have the same model as VEs, and so do nightborne and night elves. Their differences are minimal and often imperceptible.

So now that you've accepted you are wrong on something, you wish to move the goal posts. After arguing that Zandalari Trolls are the same as ordinary Trolls, now that you can no longer sustain that point of view you are now arguing that physiological differences are no longer a necessity. Which of course is self evidently false. This is the classic example where you keep putting forward something that isn't true and then saying that is 'countering' an argument of mine.
Firstly, if physiological variation was not a necessity, why did Blizzard physiologically vary every single allied race in some respect from their parent?
Secondly, if physiological variation was not a necessity, why did Blizzard reject high elves on the grounds they were already playable as Blood Elves?
Thirdly, if the differences are minimal and imperceptible as you claim, what is stopping you from declaring victory with Void Elves as your high elves?

It seems to me that the differences between void elves and high elves are far from minimal or imperceptible to you because if they were the logic of your position would be that you have high elves. Given that you are rejecting Void Elves for not being the high elves you wish for, it is somewhat hypocritical to argue that the differences between Void Elves and Blood/high elves are minimal and imperceptible.

But not all high elves are blood elves. Blood elves are not high elves as far as the game's and lore's nomenclature rules are concerned. When people is going to talk about the Horde elves, they say 'blood elf', not high elf. When a character in the lore is going to refer to the Horde elves, they say 'blood elf', not high elf. Likewise, when one speaks about non-Horde elves, they say 'high elves', not 'blood elves'.

Which of course is irrelevant. A High Elf option is available as Blood Elves. Nobody says Humans aren't playable because you cannot be a Defias Human. Nobody says Orcs aren't playable because you cannot be a Dragonmaw.

No, it's not esoteric. Again: character design 101. Nightborne and night elves share basically the exact same model, the tiny changes being so minimal one just will NOT see said changes at all, unless both are armor-less and standing still, side-by-side. Void elves and blood elves have the exact same model, with the skin color being not enough of a differentiation since armor often covers the whole body.

Yes, it is esoteric,because the design principle is very clear. Similar and identical are two different concepts. Nightborne and Night Elves are similar in look, but not identical, and they have massive differences in terms of culture and aesthetics. Void Elves and Blood/high elves are similar in look, but not identical, and they have massive differences in aesthetics and destiny now, particularly given the light-void dichotomy they both now represent.

And of course, if they are as close as you keep arguing them to be, that begs the question of why you find Void Elves unacceptable. If Void Elves are unacceptable but high elves would be acceptable, that must be because of a difference between Void Elves and high elves that you find annoying enough to reject the Void Elf compromise over. If a difference exists, even one, your entire point shatters as they move from identical to similar.

Which is an argument for the addition of high elves, since high elves have been part of the Alliance for the longest time in WoW, have helped the Alliance and sided with them, and always against the Horde.

High Elves were the last to join the Alliance, the first to leave the Alliance and the high elf state is currently a full member of the Horde. You are ascribing characteristics to a splinter group, akin to me arguing that the Kul Tirans have been proud members of the Horde ever since the Horde bribed those pirates to open their base to them.

The 'population' argument doesn't fly because of the developers' own actions. Void elves were just a single research group, but now suddenly numbering in the thousands upon thousands, to outnumber the high elves?

Which of course is countered by the fact that Void Elves can recruit as confirmed in the Moorgard interview from last year.

Besides, the population issue isn't the reason high elves aren't playable on the Alliance, the population issue merely supports the gameplay reasons. In that the reason high elves aren't playable on the alliance is that they are playable on the horde, and that if the exiles weren't shattered and degraded as they are but were instead strong and numerous, holding out against their inclusion for gameplay reasons would be a lot less defensible. But as Void Elves are different enough, they don't infringe the integrity of the Horde or the identity of the Blood Elves. There is no gameplay issue regarding Void Elves in other words.

"It's not the status of traitors that is the problem. The problem is their status of traitors."

If the head of the kingdom is the kingdom itself, then the blood elves betrayed Quel'Thalas when they sided against Kael'Thas. The orcs also betrayed Orgrimmar and the Horde when they sided against their warchief.

Also, it's arguable that high elves 'betrayed' Quel'thalas. All they did was refuse to be 'mana vampires' and endure the effects of mana addiction on their own, and the response from the ruling caste was to banish them.

No, the high elven exiles betrayed Quel'thalas when they helped in the purge of Dalaran and sided against their own people in two successive wars.

Kael'thas effectively abdicated his position as King of the Blood Elves once he sided with the Burning Legion as being a pawn of demons wishing to bring about the apocalypse is incompatible with good governance.

But that is beside the point. The point is that acknowledging the exiles as traitors accepts the commonality between them and the Blood Elves and implicitly acknowledges Blood Elves as the playable high elves.

I'm talking about their refusal of being 'mana vampires'. The high elves of old would think of it as beneath them.

That phased lasted a maximum of six years and it was concluded over a decade ago in game time and real time. And the high elves of old clearly didn't think it was beneath them because as the long lived Lorash Sunweaver showed, most of the high elves of old are still around and 90% of them became Blood Elves. This is again a mismatch between the mental image some have of high elves and what high elves actually are.

After all, someone recently said one of the defining traits of the high elves was that they didn't mess with dangerous magics and yet one of the lodges was destroyed in Cataclysm precisely because they were messing with dangerous magics, and a high elf recently died and her corpse became a host for Xal'atath because they were messing with dangerous magics. Messing with dangerous magics is what high elves of all descriptions do.

[Shakana]

As I've said before many times, those who want high elves on the alliance want a complete faction experience, same goes for playable ogres on horde.





Why include NPC alliance races in the faction and not make them playable? it makes no sense.

I like how one has green eyes and the other one has blue. But both are alliance soldiers.

[Ielenia]

Since you have not countered the arguments provided, they have not been exhausted according to your own definition.

I and many others have spoke against your arguments. That you don't accept it doesn't mean your arguments weren't countered. And I'll repeat what I said earlier:

You literally bring nothing new to this discussion. You just return every now and then and bring back all the same tired arguments, over and over, no matter how many people counter your arguments. You just ignore them and eventually move on, only to return some time later with, again, the exact same arguments. You don't even vary or change them even a little. You bring the exact same arguments.

So now that you've accepted you are wrong on something, you wish to move the goal posts.

There is no moving goalposts since silhouettes and 'same race' have always been my arguments.

Which of course is irrelevant.

In your opinion. In mine, and in the opinion of many in this thread, it is not.

Similar and identical are two different concepts.

The differences are so negligible they might as well be identical. "Tentacle" hair? Well, 99.9999% of the helms in the game remove your hair style. Different skin color? Well, 99.999% of the armor in the game hide your skin color.

the high elf state is currently a full member of the Horde.

False. The blood elf estate is currently a full member of the Horde.

Which of course is countered by the fact that Void Elves can recruit as confirmed in the Moorgard interview from last year.

Aside from the fact that "recruit" is not the same thing as "transform", my point stands: how did a "population" number that technically would just be in the two-digits SUDDENLY grow to the upper reaches of the four-digits numbers in such a short notice to raise above high elf population numbers to "be viable"? Especially since it looked like there were no elf, high or blood, interested in the void at all, but now suddenly there are droves upon droves of elves literally popping out of the woodwork to be 'void-i-fied'?

No, the high elven exiles betrayed Quel'thalas when they helped in the purge of Dalaran and sided against their own people in two successive wars.

Heh. So, two things:
• Sounds like this is just repayment from being exiled in the first place;
• Sounds like enough separation between both groups to cement the high elves as an Alliance group.

Kael'thas effectively abdicated his position as King of the Blood Elves once he sided with the Burning Legion

No no no. Don't accuse me of moving goalposts then try to do the same, yourself. Kael'Thas never abdicated from his position as king of the blood elves. Him striking a deal with Kil'Jaeden does not mean he abdicated from the throne.

as being a pawn of demons wishing to bring about the apocalypse is incompatible with good governance.

"Good governance" or not, it's irrelevant. He was still the rightful ruler of the blood elves, by royal bloodline.

That phased lasted a maximum of six years and it was concluded over a decade ago in game time and real time.

But the schism and animosity remained.

[Obelisk Kai]

I and many others have spoke against your arguments. That you don't accept it doesn't mean your arguments weren't countered. And I'll repeat what I said earlier:

You literally bring nothing new to this discussion. You just return every now and then and bring back all the same tired arguments, over and over, no matter how many people counter your arguments. You just ignore them and eventually move on, only to return some time later with, again, the exact same arguments. You don't even vary or change them even a little. You bring the exact same arguments.

When you say my arguments are countered, what you mean is that you or some other pro High Elf commentator has decided they were countered. Given the innate bias of such commentary, that is not a meaningful assertion.

The same arguments hold because it is the same request and because the fundamental problem you face in pursuit of the realisation of your goal is the same. That high elves are already playable as a core race of the Horde and they do not wish to undermine the diversity of the factions.

There is no moving goalposts since silhouettes and 'same race' have always been my arguments.

Unique silhouettes being an important part of faction identity was debunked in Mists of Pandaria with the addition of Pandaren. The concept of neutrality failed because it undermined the distinctiveness of the two factions, not because of model sharing.

In your opinion. In mine, and in the opinion of many in this thread, it is not.

Except it isn't my opinion. The question was directly asked of the developers, why void elves and not high elves, and the answer was that blood elves are high elves. Saying it's my opinion is a false equivalence, trying to make this a debate between two groups of nerds and their opinions. Attempting to make it my opinion alone is a way of sidestepping that the developers share that opinion. If there is anyone qualified to be a judge of this debate it is them, and they have pretty much ruled against your position given their answers and indeed their actions.

The differences are so negligible they might as well be identical. "Tentacle" hair? Well, 99.9999% of the helms in the game remove your hair style. Different skin color? Well, 99.999% of the armor in the game hide your skin color.

Then the same point I brought up earlier applies. If they are so identical, then the Alliance has high elves. If you find them unacceptable, then they are not identical and it is that difference that makes Void Elves distinct. You cannot simultaneously argue that the differences between Void Elves and high elves are so negligible that they might as well be identical and still agitate for high elves on the Alliance because void elves aren't what you wanted. Those are two incompatible sentiments, as if the differences are so negligible then you have high elves and no further action needs taken.

False. The blood elf estate is currently a full member of the Horde.

The Kingdom of Quel'thalas was a member of the Alliance, it left the Alliance and then joined the Horde. The people who were formerly citizens of the Alliance as a part of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas are not citizens of the Horde. When they were a part of the Alliance they called themselves high elves, now they call themselves blood elves, but they are the same people and the sole thing that has changed is an adjective. Therefore, the elves who were a part of the Alliance in Warcraft 2 are playable today.

Aside from the fact that "recruit" is not the same thing as "transform", my point stands: how did a "population" number that technically would just be in the two-digits SUDDENLY grow to the upper reaches of the four-digits numbers in such a short notice to raise above high elf population numbers to "be viable"? Especially since it looked like there were no elf, high or blood, interested in the void at all, but now suddenly there are droves upon droves of elves literally popping out of the woodwork to be 'void-i-fied'?

Leaving aside the fact that the only viable interpretation of both the question and answer in that interview was that they are being transformed (in fact the only use of the word 'recruit' was Moorgard specifically saying they weren't doing that)...any answer given regarding the later would be speculation. Given that all elves, even the supposedly noble and morally superior exiles, seem to dabble with dangerous magics, the simplest explanation is that the ban on void research offended a number of elves who wished to experiment with that force. Umbric and his followers wished to go the farthest to the point they got themselves exiled and now that they have achieved something, those who wish to walk that path are now seeking him out. Dalaran has banned experimentation with the void magic (as proven in the mage tower quest with the imp mother) and Silvermoon has done likewise to protect the Sunwell. Exiles from Dalaran and Blood Elves from Silvermoon would therefore have to seek Umbric out to learn about the void and become void elves, and the NPCs in telogrus support this interpretation through their dialogue.

Heh. So, two things:
• Sounds like this is just repayment from being exiled in the first place;
• Sounds like enough separation between both groups to cement the high elves as an Alliance group.

No, because those are political actions. If the Defias massacred Stormwind citizens out in Westfall, that doesn't justify them as a different and distinct race. It just means they are bitter terrorists taking out their frustrations against their government on the nearest civilians to hand.

No no no. Don't accuse me of moving goalposts then try to do the same, yourself. Kael'Thas never abdicated from his position as king of the blood elves. Him striking a deal with Kil'Jaeden does not mean he abdicated from the throne.


"Good governance" or not, it's irrelevant. He was still the rightful ruler of the blood elves, by royal bloodline.

From Chronicles Volume 3, page 156

"Some blood elves did not believe the stories. At least, not at first. When they ventured to Netherstorm, they saw the truth with their own eyes. Kael'thas had embraced fel magic and become the Legion's pawn. He was their Prince no more. Word of this discovery reached Lor'themar Theron and the other ranking elves in Quel'thalas. The news broke their hearts, but they came to a consensus. Kael'thas was lost. It was their duty to vanquish him and end his treachery.'

By siding with the Burning Legion, the enemy of all life, Kael'thas de facto abdicated as ruler of the Blood Elves, something that was instantly recognised by every Blood Elf who heard the news. His action was incompatible with his role as Prince and constituted the ultimate betrayal.

But the schism and animosity remained.

And the defias are still pissed at being stiffed over the pay and the Grimtotem are still pissed at Baine at the failure of their coup and being thrown out of Tauren society. It doesn't mean they have different cultures, aesthetics or physiology or anything that justifies an allied race slot, it's just political differences that add texture and complexity to the playable races.

[Benomatic]

I like how one has green eyes and the other one has blue. But both are alliance soldiers.

They both have blue, which one appears green to you?

[Shakana]

They both have blue, which one appears green to you?

First one. I opened the screenshot you zoom in on target frame. https://i.imgur.com/hft1mp0.jpg

[Ielenia]

When you say my arguments are countered, what you mean is that you or some other pro High Elf commentator has decided they were countered. Given the innate bias of such commentary, that is not a meaningful assertion.

Whichever the case may be, it doesn't change the fact you just continue to return to this mega-thread to regurgitate the exact same arguments, over and over, never varying in the slightest in what you say. It gets tiresome and irksome because you had already said your piece, multiple times over, and yet you continue to return, again and again, only to repeat your arguments, word-for-word, like a broken record.

You already said your mind. Great. Now please either go, or offer something new.

Unique silhouettes being an important part of faction identity was debunked in Mists of Pandaria with the addition of Pandaren. The concept of neutrality failed because it undermined the distinctiveness of the two factions, not because of model sharing.

It's a good thing that no one in the pro-high-elf community wants the thalassian elves to be neutral, then.

Except it isn't my opinion. The question was directly asked of the developers, why void elves and not high elves, and the answer was that blood elves are high elves.

So it's your opinion and theirs. The developers' opinions are not sacrosanct. They can and should be challenged. The entire point of this mega-thread is that we disagree with the developers' opinions, so saying "their opinion is not the same as yours" is a meaningless statement.

Then the same point I brought up earlier applies. If they are so identical, then the Alliance has high elves. If you find them unacceptable, then they are not identical and it is that difference that makes Void Elves distinct.

Except we are not the ones arguing "you just want the blood elf model in the Alliance!" I'm simply showing how such an argument does not work anymore.

The Kingdom of Quel'thalas was a member of the Alliance, it left the Alliance and then joined the Horde. The people who were formerly citizens of the Alliance as a part of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas are not citizens of the Horde. When they were a part of the Alliance they called themselves high elves, now they call themselves blood elves, but they are the same people and the sole thing that has changed is an adjective. Therefore, the elves who were a part of the Alliance in Warcraft 2 are playable today.

There were high elves that were part of the Alliance military who opted to remain. But nevertheless it doesn't change the fact the blood elves joined the Horde. They gave up on the high elf name, so they're not high elves anymore. They're the blood elves, now. The high elves who remained, returned or remained with the Alliance.

Leaving aside the fact that the only viable interpretation of both the question and answer in that interview was that they are being transformed

"The only viable interpretation" in your opinion.

No, because those are political actions.

I don't think it matters if it's 'just political actions'. It still shows a clear difference and separation between both groups.

From Chronicles Volume 3, page 156

"Some blood elves did not believe the stories. At least, not at first. When they ventured to Netherstorm, they saw the truth with their own eyes. Kael'thas had embraced fel magic and become the Legion's pawn. He was their Prince no more. Word of this discovery reached Lor'themar Theron and the other ranking elves in Quel'thalas. The news broke their hearts, but they came to a consensus. Kael'thas was lost. It was their duty to vanquish him and end his treachery.'

By siding with the Burning Legion, the enemy of all life, Kael'thas de facto abdicated as ruler of the Blood Elves, something that was instantly recognised by every Blood Elf who heard the news. His action was incompatible with his role as Prince and constituted the ultimate betrayal.

Ok. What you posted there in no way counters what I wrote. Kael'Thas never abdicated from his position as the king of Quel'Thalas. The blood elves simply decided to stop following him. Big difference.

And the defias are still pissed at being stiffed over the pay and the Grimtotem are still pissed at Baine at the failure of their coup and being thrown out of Tauren society. It doesn't mean they have different cultures, aesthetics or physiology or anything that justifies an allied race slot, it's just political differences that add texture and complexity to the playable races.

Highmountain tauren still possess the same culture and aesthetics as the Mulgore tauren, and the physiological differences are minimal. Also, weren't you one of those who said that the high elf culture has been assimilating pieces of the human culture from living with them for so long? I'm betting that qualifies as 'different culture'. Their intense schism and hatred also works to further differentiate the groups. And again: having a similar culture and background can work as an advantage considering it can be used as hooks for more conflicts as the high elves and blood elves fight over ancient elven artifacts and locations.

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First one. I opened the screenshot you zoom in on target frame. https://i.imgur.com/hft1mp0.jpg

They look blue in the character frame. Perhaps is the environment filter that makes them appear green on the actual model?

[Shakana]

Or that is a really weird blue, or i don't know i basically see green.

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@Ielenia you're right it's blue, i went to paint xD
On the frame really seemed green tho. https://i.imgur.com/OOXf4Dr.png

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P.S. - My vision might have tricked me with the whole screenshot and daylight maybe. Now i'm seeing a bit better. I mean, my eyes really tricked me.

[DeicideUH]

Or that is a really weird blue, or i don't know i basically see green.

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@Ielenia you're right it's blue, i went to paint xD
On the frame really seemed green tho. https://i.imgur.com/OOXf4Dr.png

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P.S. - My vision might have tricked me with the whole screenshot and daylight maybe. Now i'm seeing a bit better. I mean, my eyes really tricked me.

High elf males have teal eyes, which can be easily confused as green in-game, depending on lighting or angle.

Also, many high elf NPCs still have the green glow effect of the blood elves over their eyes. You usually only notice it looking closely over them, but it can make the males' eye appear even more greenish.

(BTW, on 8.3 many NPCs are using the wrong eye color. All high elves that had the above mentioned eye glow are appearing with green eyes (the ones without it are using blue/teal eyes). This also affects all dark ranges (sin'dorei and kaldorei) and druids of the flame, who are using the normal PC eye colors rather than their own unique NPC eyes. This bug hasn't been fixed on the release candidate PTR, and will probably cause a lot of confusion on live)

[Shakana]

@DeicideUH maybe they will ye. I was on PTR really just to see the races as DK and how the glow looked like. I didn't want to spoil myself more than that. Or payed attention to other details as this.

[Obelisk Kai]

Whichever the case may be, it doesn't change the fact you just continue to return to this mega-thread to regurgitate the exact same arguments, over and over, never varying in the slightest in what you say. It gets tiresome and irksome because you had already said your piece, multiple times over, and yet you continue to return, again and again, only to repeat your arguments, word-for-word, like a broken record.


You already said your mind. Great. Now please either go, or offer something new.

And yet you do the same in pursuit of your objective. Continually asking for something despite being told very clearly no. Now you can keep belabouring this point, but to do so implies a measure of hypocrisy, or you can just accept it as the ways things are.

It's a good thing that no one in the pro-high-elf community wants the thalassian elves to be neutral, then.

Neutral is shorthand for the same race being available to both factions. Playable Pandaren are 'neutral' in that sense, and have been described so by Blizzard, but the individuals are in fact committed to their faction. Allowing high elven exiles within the Alliance is de facto making them 'neutral',

So it's your opinion and theirs. The developers' opinions are not sacrosanct. They can and should be challenged. The entire point of this mega-thread is that we disagree with the developers' opinions, so saying "their opinion is not the same as yours" is a meaningless statement.

The developers don't have opinions though. They state facts. Fans have opinions. And given their work has a material impact on the game, what they say carries considerably more heft than what I say. This is why in every fandom, when the creator of the work comments on something, that is regarded as the truth.

Except we are not the ones arguing "you just want the blood elf model in the Alliance!" I'm simply showing how such an argument does not work anymore.

Given that Void Elves were only changed a little and they were rejected by the hardcore pro High Elf community as unacceptable, such an assertion does not stand up to scrutiny.

There were high elves that were part of the Alliance military who opted to remain. But nevertheless it doesn't change the fact the blood elves joined the Horde. They gave up on the high elf name, so they're not high elves anymore. They're the blood elves, now. The high elves who remained, returned or remained with the Alliance.

Which pertains to the political opinions of a handful of individuals. That is not the basis for an allied race. Nor did changing the name of the people change who they were materially, any more than the change of name from Zaire to Congo change who the inhabitants of that country were either. Chris Metzen likely only changed the name for the warcraft 3 campaign because it sounded cool after all, it would have been a very 'Metzenesque' flourish. I wonder what case you would make had he not changed the name. So many arguments over a single adjective.

"The only viable interpretation" in your opinion.

I could go through the whole interview again, but just as a reminder the interviewer posed the same question you did not so long ago 'Where did the numbers come from' and Moorgard answered 'other elves are seeking them out'. The only interpretation that makes sense is that those seeking them out are becoming Void Elves, because that is the only interpretation that answers the 'where are the numbers coming from'. The pro high elf alternative interpretation relies upon him not actually answering the question, but for some reason talking instead about the elves hanging around telogrus. I don't have much time for that interpretation, as it seems wilfully obtuse to what is being said simply to deny the logical result, that Void Elves can turn other thalassian elves into Void Elves, and that exiles can be among them.

I don't think it matters if it's 'just political actions'. It still shows a clear difference and separation between both groups.

It matters very much, as just politics is insufficient justification for undermining faction diversity. A high elf option is available for use in game

Ok. What you posted there in no way counters what I wrote. Kael'Thas never abdicated from his position as the king of Quel'Thalas. The blood elves simply decided to stop following him. Big difference.

Except your original response in no way countered what I wrote originally. I wrote that Kael'thas effectively abdicated as a result of his pact with the Burning Legion. You instead decided to argue that he didn't literally abdicate. My next response was to point out that Chronicle supports the position that his alliance with the Legion was an effective abdication and that I wasn't saying it was a literal abdication, you doubled down on the grounds that what I wrote didn't counter your point. I wasn't trying to counter your point, you were trying to counter mine and it is clear you had not read what I had written originally because otherwise we would not have gone down this tangent.

Highmountain tauren still possess the same culture and aesthetics as the Mulgore tauren, and the physiological differences are minimal. Also, weren't you one of those who said that the high elf culture has been assimilating pieces of the human culture from living with them for so long? I'm betting that qualifies as 'different culture'. Their intense schism and hatred also works to further differentiate the groups. And again: having a similar culture and background can work as an advantage considering it can be used as hooks for more conflicts as the high elves and blood elves fight over ancient elven artifacts and locations.

Highmountain Tauren also possess a substantial physical difference in their moose, rather than cow horns which is rooted in the gift of Cenarius they were granted. Furthermore, Highmountain Tauren are on the same faction as ordinary Tauren and thus HMT are complementary, rather than undermine, the identity of the Tauren within WoW. The exile suggestion crosses the faction wall, the bar is raised on the level of necessary differentiation as a result, and the exiles do not and did not meet the standard.

As for assimilation, that isn't a different culture. That's human culture. Humans are there for that. The reason the exiles are assimilating is that there aren't enough of them to sustain their own culture in their new abodes AND that many of them are interbreeding with humans. If you wish to argue for a mix of thalassian and human cultures, you should be arguing for the logical expression of that in half elves.

Finally, regarding similar cultures and backgrounds being useful hooks for conflict, you have a point. Thankfully we now have the Void Elves, who with their void based physiology now form the other side of light-void thematic axis with the Blood Elves, to do that and who will be perfect for such a role as a result. The exiles are therefore entirely surplus to requirements on that suggestion.

[Ielenia]

And yet you do the same in pursuit of your objective. Continually asking for something despite being told very clearly no.

Cute. But the situations are not comparable. On top of that, I can offer instances of Blizzard "very clearly saying 'no'" and yet eventually doing it anyways.

Neutral is shorthand for the same race being available to both factions.

No. "Neutral" means "neutral". Having the race split itself between two separate factions is not "neutrality". Switzerland is neutral. Germany, post WWII, was not neutral, despite "being available to both factions" (West/East Germany)

The developers don't have opinions though.

False. The developers do have opinions. Again: their opinions are not holy words. I don't care for your "word of god" shpiel.

Given that Void Elves were only changed a little and they were rejected by the hardcore pro High Elf community as unacceptable, such an assertion does not stand up to scrutiny.

Only if you ignore the reason for the rejection: they are blood elves, not high elves.

Which pertains to the political opinions of a handful of individuals.

The high elves are more than "a handful of individuals". And you don't get to decide many we need to make it viable as an AR.

It matters very much

In your opinion.

A high elf option is available for use in game

False. None of the """options available""" are what people have been asking for.

Except your original response in no way countered what I wrote originally. I wrote that Kael'thas effectively abdicated

There wasn't any "effectively" anything, either. There is no rule that state that the ruler of Quel'Thalas should not strike any deals with outside groups.

Highmountain Tauren also possess a substantial physical difference in their moose, rather than cow horns

Which are a hundred thousand times (hyperbolic for emphasis) better than the differences between void elves and blood elves since, unlike BE/VE, the horns cannot be hidden by armor.

Finally, regarding similar cultures and backgrounds being useful hooks for conflict, you have a point. Thankfully we now have the Void Elves

Who seem waaaaaaaay more interested in studying and pursuing the void than their Thalassian history, which seems to be another point of stress for the pro-high-elf supporters.

[FlubberPuddy]

Who seem waaaaaaaay more interested in studying and pursuing the void than their Thalassian history, which seems to be another point of stress for the pro-high-elf supporters.

Yeah I was gonna say the Void Elves don't seem to care what happens to the Blood Elves.

The Void Elves don't share the very frank and long-time rivalry between High Elves and Blood Elves.

We've also had Void Elves for a whole expansion and then some and Blizzard still hasn't done anything in the ballpark of "The Void Elves and Blood Elves have an intense rivalry", I think because of all the Silvermoon Exiles who talk about now being able to learn without disruption or w/e it shows the Void Elves care more about learning/controlling their newfound power.

I think Blizzard did a lot of shoe-horning this expac in terms of reasons for Allied Races to join their respective factions and the faction war itself and they're probably going to use Shadowlands as a break from "Azeroth narrative" to then in 10.0 actually show the ramifications of what just happened in BfA. One would hope anyway.

Otherwise the continual excuse of, "Void Elves are new they have so much potential, just watch! This can happen or that can happen" further continues holding no weight.

The only thing I expect from them is if we get a Void Expansion for them to maybe illuminate some features of the Void, but again they're a very new race/culture they're not like the Draenei who have studied magic for millenia and have vast knowledge on the subject or w/e.

Void Elves are new and fresh, and because of that they have to grow into whatever role people are trying to imagine they have the potential for.

[Black Goat]

It's not about impunity because firstly the amount of in-game models within the game doesn't define the literal population of each of the races that reside in the WoW universe. If you came in with that as your starting argument it's already in bad faith. Pure and simple.

Otherwise Stormwind, a city that's supposed to be so freaking huge only has like what 40 homes and 100-200 people living in there?

That's why it's a strawman and an obvious one at that. Nobody should taking in-game NPC numbers as literal representation, what they do represent is a percentage of population in a game that literally couldn't run if it had to display the actual amount of NPCs that reside in the zones we explore.

That you throw out a dozen or so as number of High Elves continues to show the bad faith arguments. There was someone who painstakingly took the time to create some album with unique named High Elf NPCs and it numbered in over the 100s.

Your posts continue to be in bad faith on the grounds that you're not here to actually have your mind changed and that's easily seen from the way you post.

Why do you assume I meant in-game? I never said in-game. Would you mind pointing out to me where I said "in-game models"?

I asked, "How many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance?" I suppose you can't answer since you just keep being defensive and evasive of what I asked you. I'll take that as a concession that you don't have an answer. "Someone" made a list that numbers "in the 100s". I highly doubt that, first of all. Even in the case that what you claim is true, I'm sure 90% of them are dead.

Sure, my mind can be changed. How would you know? You didn't even try. You immediately went on the defensive with accusations and no information whatsoever.

[Ogren]

While all of that is true, I am more addressing the criticism that Umbric and the Ren'dorei are trash just because they were introduced out of nowhere. There was an actual in-universe reason for that, which can easily be imagined.

I don't hate him or Void Elves, but I do find it hard to really find interest or get invested in his character when he is such a blank slate. Outside of a mention that he fought alongside the Humans during the Troll Wars, which was just treated as a footnote in itself, there is not much about his character that makes me really feel anything for him. He's one of those characters that deserves their own short story explaining their history or narrative arc.

The Void Elves in themselves too, I feel like they need something like that. They've been playable for a long while now but they still seem like a really blank canvas.

[FlubberPuddy]

I don't hate him or Void Elves, but I do find it hard to really find interest or get invested in his character when he is such a blank slate. Outside of a mention that he fought alongside the Humans during the Troll Wars, which was just treated as a footnote in itself, there is not much about his character that makes me really feel anything for him. He's one of those characters that deserves their own short story explaining their history or narrative arc.

The Void Elves in themselves too, I feel like they need something like that. They've been playable for a long while now but they still seem like a really blank canvas.

Very much agree with your observations of both Umbric and Void Elves as a whole.

@Black Goat your entire post is so transparently trying to start a fight it's pathetic. Go to the US Forums and look for a poster named Archmage who's a Nightborne Mage (last I checked), they're the one who has posted the album before and I'm sure you can probably ask them to do so again. Or go to the High Elf Discord and ask someone there. That's open for anyone to do.

Otherwise stay ignorant, doesn't matter to me. What's weird is coming to the thread and trying to be matter of fact on matters that've already been discussed and then act like "Even if it's true, I'm just gonna assume it doesn't exist!". Makes it incredibly transparent how much you're simply trying to start...something (can't say "fight" since this is a forum lol).

[DeicideUH]

I don't hate him or Void Elves, but I do find it hard to really find interest or get invested in his character when he is such a blank slate. Outside of a mention that he fought alongside the Humans during the Troll Wars, which was just treated as a footnote in itself, there is not much about his character that makes me really feel anything for him. He's one of those characters that deserves their own short story explaining their history or narrative arc.

The Void Elves in themselves too, I feel like they need something like that. They've been playable for a long while now but they still seem like a really blank canvas.

This is my whole problem with void elves. We are approaching two years since their debut and we have close to nothing.

But... where did the info that Umbric fought in the troll wars come from? That’s new for me!

[bdlovelace]

I asked, "How many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance?" I suppose you can't answer since you just keep being defensive and evasive of what I asked you. I'll take that as a concession that you don't have an answer. "Someone" made a list that numbers "in the 100s". I highly doubt that, first of all. Even in the case that what you claim is true, I'm sure 90% of them are dead.

@Black Goat your entire post is so transparently trying to start a fight it's pathetic. Go to the US Forums and look for a poster named Archmage who's a Nightborne Mage (last I checked), they're the one who has posted the album before and I'm sure you can probably ask them to do so again. Or go to the High Elf Discord and ask someone there. That's open for anyone to do.

the photo album is of almost exclusively neutral dalaran elves and the few SC appearances. 'the list' again is another joke that counts neutral parties that have no interest in the faction war(think elf citizens of dalaran again)

but we know how many are loyal anyway. 4 were active in the fourth war, but only 1 even put boots on the ground. counting valeera that makes 5. if you count the 2 in SW that have been there since classic we have 7

even ion himself said 'theres a couple... but theyre not out there in the same way,' this was an obvious reference to the SC being tied to dalaran and its neutrality imo. no dalaran in play, no SC to stand around in the background with khadgar

[FlubberPuddy]

the photo album is of almost exclusively neutral dalaran elves and the few SC appearances. 'the list' again is another joke that counts neutral parties that have no interest in the faction war(think dalaran again)

but we know how many are loyal anyway. 4 were active in the fourth war, but only 1 even put boots on the ground. counting valeera that makes 5. if you count the 2 in SW that have been there since classic we have 7

even ion himself said 'theres a couple... but theyre not out there in the same way,' this was a reference to the SC being tied to dalaran and its neutrality imo

You talking about the album means it's proof that it exists which is all I need. Other than that I don't care to convince anyone who've already made up their mind.

The album speaks for itself if someone asks about High Elves loyal to the Alliance. And you must've missed the recent convo we had where it's clear that Silver Covenant are not a neutral faction. If you still want to think so you may, but the thread's moved past that already and it's been put to rest by Aucald and others.