Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ogren]

This is my whole problem with void elves. We are approaching two years since their debut and we have close to nothing.

But... where did the info that Umbric fought in the troll wars come from? That’s new for me!

He says it to Shandris in the war campaign, right around that part that involves sabotaging Zandalari and Horde diplomatic efforts by chucking the emissaries into void portals.

[Ielenia]

This is my whole problem with void elves. We are approaching two years since their debut and we have close to nothing.

But... where did the info that Umbric fought in the troll wars come from? That’s new for me!

Not sure if it's what Orgren is referencing, but there is this line Umbric says, during the Alliance War Campaign, when he disguises you as a blood troll:
• Magister Umbric says: You and I have both lived long lives, Shandris. I know many who have been affected by the Zandalari's barbarism.

EDIT: Looks like I was right.

[Black Goat]

@Black Goat your entire post is so transparently trying to start a fight it's pathetic. Go to the US Forums and look for a poster named Archmage who's a Nightborne Mage (last I checked), they're the one who has posted the album before and I'm sure you can probably ask them to do so again. Or go to the High Elf Discord and ask someone there. That's open for anyone to do.

Otherwise stay ignorant, doesn't matter to me. What's weird is coming to the thread and trying to be matter of fact on matters that've already been discussed and then act like "Even if it's true, I'm just gonna assume it doesn't exist!". Makes it incredibly transparent how much you're simply trying to start...something (can't say "fight" since this is a forum lol).

Wow, man. I can tell this thread has really jaded you.

I asked, "How many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance?" I am trying to learn, but you keep dodging the question. "Stay ignorant"? Wow, I should report you for that remark.

You've since been on a tirade of assumptions and accusations that have accomplished every manner of defensive, knee-jerk reactions.

1. You assumed I meant in-game NPCs. I never said those words, and you accused me of a strawman fallacy based on your incorrect assumption.

2. You've claimed someone posted a list of High Elves that are loyal to the Alliance, but have failed to produce it. Even making claims that it's so easy to find. I haven't found it, and you haven't produced it. Kinda smells fishy.

3. Accused me of using bad faith and previously employed arguments, directly after you falsely correlated the Blood Elf/High Elf situation to be similar to Human/Kul'Tiran.

I'll be placing you on ignore since you're more interested in being defensive and rude than actually discussing this. You're clearly a hypocrite, and I hope there're better examples of supporters for High Elves than you.

[FlubberPuddy]

Wow, man. I can tell this thread has really jaded you.

I asked, "How many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance?" I am trying to learn, but you keep dodging the question. "Stay ignorant"? Wow, I should report you for that remark.

You've since been on a tirade of assumptions and accusations that have accomplished every manner of defensive, knee-jerk reactions.

1. You assumed I meant in-game NPCs. I never said those words, and you accused me of a strawman fallacy based on your incorrect assumption.

2. You've claimed someone posted a list of High Elves that are loyal to the Alliance, but have failed to produce it. Even making claims that it's so easy to find. I haven't found it, and you haven't produced it. Kinda smells fishy.

3. Accused me of using bad faith and previously employed arguments, directly after you falsely correlated the Blood Elf/High Elf situation to be similar to Human/Kul'Tiran.

I'll be placing you on ignore since you're more interested in being defensive and rude than actually discussing this. You're clearly a hypocrite, and I hope there're better examples of supporters for High Elves than you.

Gave this guy the solution to his question (with another poster speaking of said album too confirming its existence) and he continues to focus on me and berate me lol. Good riddance.

[Black Goat]

Gave this guy the solution to his question (with another poster speaking of said album too confirming its existence) and he continues to focus on me and berate me lol. Good riddance.

Was this post meant to rally people to your cause? No one is coming to your aide.

No, you didn't. Your petty response here goes to show your bad attitude. You have the audacity to condescend to others when you're drenched in hypocrisy and wrong-doing and clearly can't discuss anything in what you would call "good faith".

You made insults, assumptions, and outright lies to support your view and STILL haven't produced a modicum of evidence to support what you're claiming. When called out for your mishaps, you just pretend they didn't happen and never offered an apology. As per your evidence, you just say, "It exists over there somewhere" as if that's sufficient and in "good faith". Your responses, including the one I quoted, are pathetic and demonstrate how little you know regarding this situation. Apparently you're only good at being rude.

So I'll open the question to anyone that actually knows what they're talking about:

How many High Elves remain loyal to the Alliance? Neutral Blood Elves don't count. I mean politically correct High Elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Cute. But the situations are not comparable. On top of that, I can offer instances of Blizzard "very clearly saying 'no'" and yet eventually doing it anyways.

And I am able to show how each of those instances is different from the pro high elf request and not a precedent for this request.

No. "Neutral" means "neutral". Having the race split itself between two separate factions is not "neutrality". Switzerland is neutral. Germany, post WWII, was not neutral, despite "being available to both factions" (West/East Germany)

Not when it comes to discussing racial composition of the two factions.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/races/pandaren

Faction Neutral
Pandaren may choose to align with either the Alliance or the Horde.

So when talking about a neutral race in regards to faction choice, I mean the same faction being available to both sides. Just as Blizzard describes Pandaren.

False. The developers do have opinions. Again: their opinions are not holy words. I don't care for your "word of god" shpiel.

Whether you care for it or not isn't the point, what the developers say goes. They have a holistic view of the game and have to make the right call for the game. They have given comprehensive explanations on two occasions explaining that maintaining faction diversity is more important than granting a small group of alliance players access to a duplicate of a core horde race.

Only if you ignore the reason for the rejection: they are blood elves, not high elves.

And Blizzard has defined Void Elves as another flavour of high elves. Blood Elves and high elves are identical, but void elves are a variant. That some void elves were blood elves in the past doesn't obscure the fact that before they were blood elves they were high elves for much longer. And all that becoming blood elves involved was changing the adjective in their collective name. Besides, as void elves can likely recruit, if that was the true reason for the rejection all people would have to do is roleplay their void elf as a Silver covenant elf who has left Dalaran due to Dalaran's canonical ban on void research and who has stayed in telogrus for a time as a high elf wayfarer before becoming a fully fledged blue skinned void elf.

The high elves are more than "a handful of individuals". And you don't get to decide many we need to make it viable as an AR.

And who does decide? Blizzard of course, the same Blizzard you then said earlier did not have sacrosanct opinions. The population argument began with blizzard, who on three separate occasions twelve years apart (Caydiem 2005 post, Hazzikostas 2017 and 2018) cited the population issue as the lore rationale as to why high elves aren't playable. So, they have held a consistent stance on that for over a decade.

It sounds to me that the only person you are willing to listen to in regards to the question of how many are required to make a viable AR is someone who agrees with you that they should be an AR in the first place. Even the developers aren't enough because they are giving you the answer you don't want.

In your opinion.

And that of the developers, given that the sole difference between the Blood Elves and the exiles is politics and that wasn't enough to justify them as an allied race. I am beginning to think attacking something as my opinion is easier for you as it is much harder to argue that the developers opinion doesn't matter, and the opinions I have are the same as the developers on this matter.

False. None of the """options available""" are what people have been asking for.

So the race you wanted is on the faction you didn't want them on. That's unfortunate but plenty of people are in the same boat, just not as vocal.

There wasn't any "effectively" anything, either. There is no rule that state that the ruler of Quel'Thalas should not strike any deals with outside groups.

Allying with demons effectively abdicated his rule. Chronicles, which I cited, backs up this interpretation.

Which are a hundred thousand times (hyperbolic for emphasis) better than the differences between void elves and blood elves since, unlike BE/VE, the horns cannot be hidden by armor.

That is not the metric used for differentiation. The metric is if the differentiation is substantial, not that it is visible. Lightforged Draenei, Dark Iron Dwarves and Mag'ahr Orcs are all skin tone based variants and you cannot tell the difference between them and their parentsi if they wear armor.

Who seem waaaaaaaay more interested in studying and pursuing the void than their Thalassian history, which seems to be another point of stress for the pro-high-elf supporters.

Yes, Void Elves are on their own path now. That is the point. For those who wish to avail themselves of a pure high elf fantasy, an option is available in game on the horde faction.

[Ielenia]

And I am able to show how each of those instances is different from the pro high elf request and not a precedent for this request.

Rationalize all you want, but it is a precedent, regardless if you like it or not.

Not when it comes to discussing racial composition of the two factions.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/races/pandaren

Faction Neutral
Pandaren may choose to align with either the Alliance or the Horde.

So when talking about a neutral race in regards to faction choice, I mean the same faction being available to both sides. Just as Blizzard describes Pandaren.

Thanks for proving my point. The Thalassian elves would not be neutral since you won't "choose to align with either the Alliance or the Horde". High elves would have a separate intro experience than the blood elves, start in a different zone, have different racials, mounts, etc...

Whether you care for it or not isn't the point, what the developers say goes.

And, again, I can show you examples where "what the developers say, goes... until they cave."

And Blizzard has defined Void Elves as another flavour of high elves.

And no one here is asking for "another flavor of high elves". They want high elves. They don't want strawberry elves, blueberry elves, chocolate elves... they want the vanilla elves.

And who does decide?

Not you, so any claim you make of "X is insufficient to qualify for AR status" is meaningless. Population? You don't know the 'minimum number' for a population to be viable. Model differences? You don't know the 'minimum amount' of differences to be viable.

And that of the developers

The developers' opinions are not above scrutiny and criticism.

given that the sole difference between the Blood Elves and the exiles is politics and that wasn't enough to justify them as an allied race.

Read what I wrote two replies above.

So the race you wanted is on the faction you didn't want them on.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Are you being condescending on purpose? No. The race I want is already in the faction I want, they're just not playable. We do not want blood elves.

Allying with demons effectively abdicated his rule.

Wrong.

Chronicles, which I cited, backs up this interpretation.

Again, wrong. The elves deciding to no longer follow Kael'Thas does not mean Kael'Thas 'abdicated from the throne'.

That is not the metric used for differentiation. The metric is if the differentiation is substantial, not that it is visible. Lightforged Draenei, Dark Iron Dwarves and Mag'ahr Orcs are all skin tone based variants and you cannot tell the difference between them and their parentsi if they wear armor.

Isn't anti-high-elf arguments something regarding "faction lines" and "faction uniqueness"? Weren't you also the one who loved to say "but the Zandalari and Darkspear are in the same faction! The Highmountain tauren and Mulgore tauren are in the same faction!" You're just being countered by your own arguments, now.

Yes, Void Elves are on their own path now. That is the point. For those who wish to avail themselves of a pure high elf fantasy, an option is available in game on the horde faction.

Except we want to play the high elf fantasy, not the blood elf fantasy.

[DeicideUH]

He says it to Shandris in the war campaign, right around that part that involves sabotaging Zandalari and Horde diplomatic efforts by chucking the emissaries into void portals.

Not sure if it's what Orgren is referencing, but there is this line Umbric says, during the Alliance War Campaign, when he disguises you as a blood troll:
• Magister Umbric says: You and I have both lived long lives, Shandris. I know many who have been affected by the Zandalari's barbarism.

EDIT: Looks like I was right.

That line I remember, but there's nothing especifically about the troll wars and fighting alongside humans there.

[Ielenia]

That line I remember, but there's nothing especifically about the troll wars and fighting alongside humans there.

Yeah, it doesn't exactly point strongly at "fought with humans", in my opinion as well. It only tells us that he's been alive since roughly the founding of Silvermoon.

[bdlovelace]

Except we want to play the high elf fantasy, not the blood elf fantasy.

blood elves are the high elf fantasy. but anyway we got the new 8.3 cinematics

which clearly show who the alliance races are and their racial leaders, valeera was included in both factions cinematics and alleria represents the ren'dorei but no SC(surprise)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

[Ielenia]

blood elves are the high elf fantasy. but anyway we got the new 8.3 cinematics

which clearly show who the alliance races are and their racial leaders, valeera was included and alleria represents the ren'dorei but no SC(surprise)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

All I see are the representatives of the playable races.

[bdlovelace]

All I see are the representatives of the playable races.

its a meeting with ALL the major players of the ALLIANCE

where is vereesa to represent that alliance high elf army

[ravenmoon]

Very much agree with your observations of both Umbric and Void Elves as a whole.

@Black Goat your entire post is so transparently trying to start a fight it's pathetic. Go to the US Forums and look for a poster named Archmage who's a Nightborne Mage (last I checked), they're the one who has posted the album before and I'm sure you can probably ask them to do so again. Or go to the High Elf Discord and ask someone there. That's open for anyone to do.

Otherwise stay ignorant, doesn't matter to me. What's weird is coming to the thread and trying to be matter of fact on matters that've already been discussed and then act like "Even if it's true, I'm just gonna assume it doesn't exist!". Makes it incredibly transparent how much you're simply trying to start...something (can't say "fight" since this is a forum lol).

There's a High Elf discord?

Wow, every time I think interest has shifted .. I discover the passion for high elves remains strong and vibrant.. High elves as a group have more popularity than Dwarves, Gnomes, Trolls, ... in fact all races except humans, NElves and BElves. - those are the only 3 that seem to ahve more discussion than them.. it's certainly noteworthy.

[Xeenith]

personally I'd really like the high elves finally available for alliance... BUT....

what I want is a final answer so we can stop this sort of threads, if HE are never going to be implemented then I want blizzard to STOP TEASING THEM all the time and showing some of them on alliance side here & there.
either they finally joined their not so distant brother & sister as blood elves, with the return of the sun well...
or they choose the void for whatever asspulled reason (if they could resist the mana addiction until now, why change for the VOID of all things?)...
orf the last few died here and there, leaving very few descendants, some mixed blood, and poof, they vanished from the world.

seeing how many void elves where at the start of that "race", they have shown us plenty of HE here & there along the zones, so numbers, as few as they must be, is not the problem.

kill them all or make them avaiable, one or the other, stop the f... tease already >_<

[DeicideUH]

its a meeting with ALL the major players of the ALLIANCE

where is vereesa to represent that alliance high elf army

She's drinking with Umbric, Malfurion, Mayla, Talanji and Kiro.

[Obelisk Kai]

Rationalize all you want, but it is a precedent, regardless if you like it or not.

No, a precedent is something that happened previously that stands up to scrutiny that it is a precedent. Saying it's a precedent but refusing to justify why something is a precedent isn't an argument, it's an unsubstantiated statement.

Thanks for proving my point. The Thalassian elves would not be neutral since you won't "choose to align with either the Alliance or the Horde". High elves would have a separate intro experience than the blood elves, start in a different zone, have different racials, mounts, etc...

Huojin and Tushui are not neutral either, they are committed to the Horde and Alliance respectively. But they are the same race across two factions and, as subsequent events and commentary has shown, that is something Blizzard regretted. Blood Elves and the exiles have been attested to be the exact same race on numerous occasions. Adding the exiles is therefore making a horde race neutral. And that's not an opinion, that's the reasons the developers gave when they were asked why high elves weren't added.

Neutrality means the same race across both factions in the context of faction composition. The Huojin and Tushui are not actually neutral.

And, again, I can show you examples where "what the developers say, goes... until they cave."

Each of which are unique and were walked back for unique reasons. And it proves what, that they can change their minds? Of course they can change their minds, everyone accepts that. The available evidence deals with why they almost certainly aren't going to. And the fact that they've happily maintained their stance on high elves for the past decade and a half. In fact, if you count their decision not to add high elves as a base race to WoW in the first place (i.e going back to the original white boarding and brainstorming sessions) we are probably talking closer to two decades here.

And no one here is asking for "another flavor of high elves". They want high elves. They don't want strawberry elves, blueberry elves, chocolate elves... they want the vanilla elves.

Who are available as a part of the Horde and free for you to play as we speak. If you cannot stomach the Horde faction , then yes, blueberry isn't all that bad.

Not you, so any claim you make of "X is insufficient to qualify for AR status" is meaningless. Population? You don't know the 'minimum number' for a population to be viable. Model differences? You don't know the 'minimum amount' of differences to be viable.

The minimum population for viability is x+1 where x represents the high elf exile population.

Once again, the reason the developers continually cite the population argument should be obvious. Were the exiles strong and thriving, not adding them on the grounds of faction diversity would be significantly harder to defend. As they are instead weak, divided, degraded and vanishing it is far easier to justify the gameplay rationale which is the real reason they have not been added. That they are already playable as a core horde race.

The developers' opinions are not above scrutiny and criticism.

No but you can't treat them as equivalent to fan opinions either. Developer opinions have something no fan opinion does. Meaning and impact. It counts, it matters. The opinion of the developers was that giving the Alliance a duplicate of a core Horde race undermined the distinctiveness of the two factions. And that opinion translated into the Alliance not getting high elves. So their opinions are not observations on the status of the game, they are justifications for the decisions they have made.

TAre you being obtuse on purpose? Are you being condescending on purpose? No. The race I want is already in the faction I want, they're just not playable. We do not want blood elves.

The race you want is a part of the Horde. The presence of a few exiles within the Alliance was judged insufficient to justify the duplication of a core Horde race to the Alliance in a move that would undermine faction diversity.

Because Blood Elves are high elves, the exiles are the same people as the Blood Elves.

Wrong.


Again, wrong. The elves deciding to no longer follow Kael'Thas does not mean Kael'Thas 'abdicated from the throne'.

You seem fixated on this attempting to prove this point wrong despite the Chronicle entry clearly backing me up on this.

Isn't anti-high-elf arguments something regarding "faction lines" and "faction uniqueness"? Weren't you also the one who loved to say "but the Zandalari and Darkspear are in the same faction! The Highmountain tauren and Mulgore tauren are in the same faction!" You're just being countered by your own arguments, now.

The Nightborne and the Void Elves are actually the most different from their parents among the Allied races who share the same model.

Lightforged Draenei are just even more light obsessed than ordinary Draenei, both are on the same faction.

Dark Iron Dwarves are just a more 'metal, steampunk' version of ordinary Dwarves, both are on the same faction.

Mag'har Orcs are a more brutal and clannish version of Azeroth Orcs, both are on the same faction.

However, Void Elves are now aligned to that very same void which puts them directly at odds with the increasingly light aligned blood elves, and it was no surprise that thalassian elves aligned to the sunwell would begin manifesting golden eyes at roughly the same time void elves were introduced, a clear sign Blizzard was emphasising their thematic dichotomy. Void Elves are culturally exceptionally far apart from Blood Elves now. And Nightborne? Urban dwelling arcane magic using elves are a world away from forest dwelling druidic elves. What the Night Elves represent is the polar opposite of the culture of the highborne represented by the Nightborne.
The other allied races who share a faction as well as a model with their parent are seemingly just more extreme versions of that parent. Void Elves and Nightborne crossed the faction wall and their transformation had to be more extreme as a result.

high elf[/U] fantasy, not the blood elf fantasy.

And then I say Blood Elves are High Elves and then you say not all High Elves are Blood Elves and so on in circles. Luckily Chris Metzen sorted this for us back in 2005 when he described Blood Elves as being Warcraft's take on High Elves, definitively proving once and for all that the blood elf fantasy and the high elf fantasy are the same thing. Because after all, who would gainsay the actual creator of the franchise?

[FlubberPuddy]

There's a High Elf discord?

Wow, every time I think interest has shifted .. I discover the passion for high elves remains strong and vibrant.. High elves as a group have more popularity than Dwarves, Gnomes, Trolls, ... in fact all races except humans, NElves and BElves. - those are the only 3 that seem to ahve more discussion than them.. it's certainly noteworthy.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the link is because I rarely use Discord and haven't visited it in a while but the major people who started the fairly recent High Elf Discussion posts on the US Forums made a Discord and just became a discord community of high elf fans and various other games/hobbies/etc.

It's nice to see it did overall make a community that lasts.

[Monster Hunter]

All I see are the representatives of the playable races.

Valeera is right at the back. But she's not a high elf, she's a blood elf that befriended varian when he was a gladiator and now plays both sides.

[DeicideUH]

Valeera is right at the back. But she's not a high elf, she's a blood elf that befriended varian when he was a gladiator and now plays both sides.

I didn't know Valeera was a racial leader.
Oh, she isn't. Neither is Shaw, who was also there.

So, what's the point? The characters presented are the ones Blizzard felt had some importance to be there, and that's about it. No secret conspiracies or messages beyond that.

[FlubberPuddy]

blood elves are the high elf fantasy. but anyway we got the new 8.3 cinematics

which clearly show who the alliance races are and their racial leaders, valeera was included in both factions cinematics and alleria represents the ren'dorei but no SC(surprise)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

Only thing wrong there is that Tyrande talks about no peace until treaty is in Banshee's blood when Sylvanas peaced the fuck out of the Horde and has nothing to do with it anymore.

EDIT: Also watched the Horde cutscene and don't see Mayla, Kiro, nor Talanji so by Bd's logic the highmountain/vulpera/zandalari aren't part of the Horde since they weren't shown in an ending cinematic of "major Horde players."