Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Shakana]

Which is my point. Unfortunately some people, as you can see in this thread, believe the only reason Blizzard even bothered to create the Ren'dorei as a concept was to give Alliance playable high elves, when in reality that's simply false, because the Ren'dorei have so many unique aspects that it's obvious Blizzard was interested in exploring such a race concept far beyond the mere high elf problem.

Indeed, the idea of blood elves messing with the void is an old one dating back to TBC, where High Astromancer Solarian turned into a voidwalker by absorbing a huge quantity of raw void energy.

One can argue, but blizzard seem to want to explore the void in every way. Old gods coming back, in legion we had loads of void related even in Mac'aree which is where Alleria absorbs the Dark Naaru, L'ura. Exploring that the void can be used for more than just serve the voidlords is a good premise. They want bring the question: "is the void evil?", no one wants to touch the void or understand it. Many people, in the game, has been even exiled from their homes for simply studying the void. Which is why i don't get most of the times, since all priests wield the void to fight.

The void theme has been less and less a problem, with shadow priests and void elves. Showing that the void can be wielded and that even tainted by it will still be used for "good", and it's not just essentially or a necessary evil, even when teasing you to be. Voidlords are the problem, they even tried to weak and transform elves into void creatures.

[Varodoc]

One can argue, but blizzard seem to want to explore the void in every way. Old gods coming back, in legion we had loads of void related even in Mac'aree which is where Alleria absorbs the Dark Naaru, L'ura. Exploring that the void can be used for more than just serve the voidlords is a good premise. They want bring the question: "is the void evil?", no one wants to touch the void or understand it. Many people, in the game, has been even exiled from their homes for simply studying the void. Which is why i don't get most of the times, since all priests wield the void to fight.

The void theme has been less and less a problem, with shadow priests and void elves. Showing that the void can be wielded and that even tainted by it will still be used for "good", and it's not just essentially or a necessary evil, even when teasing you to be. Voidlords are the problem, they even tried to weak and transform elves into void creatures.

I mean, No. One cannot argue. Once you get past the fact that both void elves and high elves have pointy ears, it becomes so obvious that Blizzard didn't create them just with the intention of giving the Alliance a carbon copy of high elves.

[Shakana]

I mean, No. One cannot argue. Once you get past the fact that both void elves and high elves have pointy ears, it becomes so obvious that Blizzard didn't create them just with the intention of giving the Alliance a carbon copy of high elves.

True. I meant argue from perspectives on the matter (as you can see all over those pages).
If you were a dev, would you prefer trying to make sense out of a lore and know what to do with it, or would you rather implement as an allied race a totally new and unique elf race with the blood/high elf looks? I'm certain i would choose the second. I think they liked the concept more.

I just think this high elf thread will never end, until they do something about it. But not really needed imo.

- - - Updated - - -

1.

2.

3.




I mean, who would you choose looking at both, when you're a dev?




You would need to always try find something to make those unique such as this:

[Varodoc]

Imho it's a matter of time before Void Elves get fair-skinned customization options. Lorewise reason will be that Alleria managed to teach them how to revert to their original high elf form like she did.

[Shakana]

Imho it's a matter of time before Void Elves get fair-skinned customization options. Lorewise reason will be that Alleria managed to teach them how to revert to their original high elf form like she did.

Yep that's why i have been saying i would prefer as well having the option on void elf.

[FlubberPuddy]

In regards to the examples you gave, both Mag'har Orcs and Lightforged Undead are or would be variants of existing races rather than duplicates and thus would not be identical to existing races and would therefore follow the Void Elf/Nightborne precedent of being a variant of a race on the other faction, but not identical. Had it been confirmed to be happening there would have been pushback, but it didn't happen.

In regards to Dark Rangers, I believe most players agitating for that want it as a class, not as a race. As such I disregarded it as were a Dark Ranger class to be introduced the Alliance would get a Dark Ranger option somehow. The example was therefore too confused in my opinion to really discuss. It still is.

In regards to faction pride, high elves are as much a part of the Alliance as Ogres are of the Horde i.e. barely if at all. Associations forged in the minds of players who got through the RTS's are important, but they also reflect the state of the game story as it was written nearly two decades ago. Things have moved on. Those players who perceive the high elves as an important, contributing member of the Alliance are entitled to that perspective, but a perspective based upon nostalgia cannot trump the reality of the game world as written.

In regards to the Mag'har/Lightforged topic that you agree there would be pushback should mean you also understand why people are here agitating for High Elves in the Alliance. Simply put, like how you're showing understanding in the Mag'har/LF scenario if it occurred shows you understand the basic premise of "we did not get what we were asking for, so we're going to keep requesting it" yet your posting has shown lack of this understanding and trying instead to convince others to just "settle with what you got."

The Dark Ranger is a comparison point to show that majority of players do understand the nuances of the game and some people like you keep trying to Red Herring when discussing High Elves as a playable option in the Alliance, by trying to turn around the name of a particular group within the Alliance called "High Elves" with the race of high elves which is shared with Blood Elves. Let me link an example: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...gers_with_the/

None of the comments there are exclaiming that "Dark Rangers are finally playable" simply because one can look the part. This is the same as how you and others constantly go "play Blood Elves they look like the High Elves so they're already playable" which is a dishonest argument because the point of an Alliance High Elf is that they're one of the many groups within the Alliance such as Silver Covenant or Highvale or Allerian Stronghold etc.

So just as it would be dishonest for one to say "look Dark Rangers are available now! You can look like them! Go play them!" it's as dishonest to say "Alliance players, the High Elves are available! Go play the Blood Elves on the Horde!" because your premise with using that argument is focused on appearance and nothing else.

And regards to the faction pride bit, that you say High Elves on Alliance who have appeared numerous times among Alliance ranks throughout several expansions are equatable to Horde Ogres who only appeared among Horde ranks in one expansion just continues to show the bias you have within this topic while arguing against the High Elf request.

You state that "things have moved on" and then in that same paragraph act as if players are speaking of High Elves from WC3 days when people have been using evidence of High Elves among Alliance ranks in as recent as the current expansion of BfA. I think you should update your view as the reality of the game shows that High Elves are still a part of the Alliance and if such a lesser exposed race as Ogres can be requested for Horde then so can the much more exposed and frequent appearances of Alliance High Elves.

I have never understood the logic of this retort. Nightborne are clearly as distinct from a Night Elf as a Void Elf is from a Blood Elf. To accept the argument that Nightborne destroy faction differentiation I would have to accept that despite their obvious differences, Nightborne are identical to Night Elves. Once I accept that, the corollary is that despite their clearly obvious differences, Void Elves are identical to Blood/High Elves. At which point, logic would dictate you have High Elves and have won.

It seems disingenuous to argue that Nightborne are identical (and thus destroy the faction wall) whilst rejecting Void Elves for being too different, despite Void Elves being as different from High Elves as Nightborne are from Night Elves.

The reality is either both are identical to their parents, in which case you have authentic high elves, or both are different in substance, in which case the faction wall is maintained.

You don't understand because you are being blatantly biased from the get-go. You cannot state that, "duplicating a core part of the Horde fantasy to the Alliance is disrespectful" and then ignore that Nightborne are duplicating the Highborne Alliance fantasy of Night Elves to the Horde faction. As per your own words that should be disrespectful and yet the developers did it. The developers even knowingly did it admitting that they knew whichever side didn't get the Nightborne would feel let-down.

This is why I bring up the Nightborne. I'll cover it more below as your responses reference them often.

Leaving aside the Nightborne are genuinely physically different from Night Elves, the Nightborne also have a complex backstory of being locked in a city for ten thousand years, thereby preserving a section of the old Night Elf civilization before they embraced druidism. We therefore have a radically different culture which is supported by lore and a lore based explanation as to why they are physically different.

None of these factors apply to the exiles, who separated less than fifteen years ago from the other Blood Elves (and as Lorash Sunweaver proved, Blood Elves can live for millenia so fifteen years is essentially nothing), who are still physically dependant upon the Sunwell to sate their addiction and who are not concentrated in high numbers in a massive, majestic city but are instead scattered across the world in exceedingly low numbers.

So here you're showing that it is okay for Nightborne to go ahead and take the old portion of Night Elven civilization and revitalize it on the opposite faction. Then on the same note decry that Alliance High Elves cannot be "radically different" and still have their story tied to the Sunwell when the game has gone long past the point of referencing any High Elf on Alliance as being drawn to the Sunwell in such fervor that the Blood Elves are.

Here's the thing, if on one hand it's okay to take a portion of a race's past and run with it (Nightborne), how is it not possible that High Elves who are not Blood Elves can't do this as well? (This is ignoring the fact that the High Elf request doesn't even argue this)

The High Elf request isn't even focused on past ventures, what people have been requesting is that from the moment that Blood Elves and High Elves became two separate groups on two distinct factions - run with that to add variance to the High Elves that exist on Alliance today and further diverge them from their Blood Elven brethren. The same way that Blizzard did it with the Kul'Tiran, showing some Kul'Tiran with bulky boisterous bodies in a society where multiple different body types exist. And all it took was one expansion as we had Kul'Tiran soldiers in Legion that still shared the same model as playable Humans.

The irony with this statement is that I agree. And Blizzard did do this. They took some high elves, subjected them to an outside energy force (the nightwell/being bombarded with void energy) which provoked physical changes (both Nightborne and Void Elves have changed skin tones, Nightborne have less muscular bodies than Night Elves, Void Elves have tentacles). You cite Nightborne as a precedent and yet seem resistant to the fact that the precedent was employed to give the Alliance a high elf variant of their very own.

What this is showing is what I said before. That you're more concerned with keeping a "fair skin elf aesthetic" completely to the Horde and not actually against the idea of a High Elven race option on the Alliance. Because if Void Elves are okay by your own words and as per your own words below you can denote the different shades of purple contained within the 3 purple elves we have now, then what are you truly arguing against if the High Elf request has always been open about changing the model (aka physical changes)/racials/culture of Alliance High Elves to reflect a different kind of "fair skin elf" just as we have 3 different kinds of purple elves?

Perhaps because skin colour is not the determining factor for the Elven races? And they aren't all purple by the way, they actually like across quite a wide spectrum.

Night Elven skin tones are quite vivid and warm. This is reflective of them based on a mix of Wood Elven and Dark Elven tropes.

Nightborne skin tones are far more limited and severe, this is because Blizzard had a particular look in mind for the Nightborne and wished to keep them within that narrow band.

Void Elves are blue/purple because blue and purple are colours humans tend to associate with darkness, and their entire motif is void focused.

Skin color is a determining factor as Ion himself said eye color isn't as much of a differentiating factor (which is why Void Elves ended up sickly blue/purple). Therefore to suggest it isn't and act dumb about is to avoid the question entirely. Why are Horde allowed to have two different (Night vs Day elves) whereas Alliance cannot?

You keep seemingly trying to defend that Void Elves are okay because "they're different enough" when they're literally a purple Blood Elf. Everyone knows this, they share the exact same Thalassian model and yet you are more okay with it than Alliance High Elves who people have argued to have different models/aesthetics/racials but still keep a fair skin look? And if you don't believe think this with Void Elves being just purple Blood Elves look here to this recent thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...llied/fdquh1t/

Where people shortly discuss how Void Elves are just "purple Blood Elves".

Fact of the matter is if you're fine with some race that uses the literal exact same model as Blood Elves only colored different then it appears all you're against is a fair skin elf being on Alliance.

But you don't have to say it, that is inevitably what they will be. That is what they are. They are just political exiles from Silvermoon, as different from an elf on Sunstrider Isle as a Defias Human is different from an elf in Darkshire. It is simply a question of politics. They are culturally, politically and aesthetically identical.

The idea of them being culturally different is a non-starter really. It's such an inorganic suggestion, one forced to answer a protestation against the realisation of the goal of a playable high elf. Them being culturally identical isn't a challenge to overcome, its a simple matter of fact. They aren't going to create a new culture wholesale simply to justify their inclusion as a playable option.

Who are you to say you know that is what they will be? Do you have secret knowledge about Blizzard's plans? Blizzard has literally shown us that despite a group (Kul'Tirans) having the same exact model for what like 12 years of WoW they can make up a new model for that group just like that. Same for Zandalari (male only as the female model is literally the same as the female Darkspear).

What you're literally saying here that they won't do is exactly what they did with Kul'Tirans when they felt like it. It goes even more out the window when you consider the upcoming increased customizations are very inorganic themselves as being allowed to make as many Dark Trolls makes no sense in any way as we know there's a single one in existence.

Again, you are seemingly ok with all the other made-up shit Blizzard do on the spot whenever they feel like but appear to be strongly and solely against it when it applies to getting Alliance High Elves.

No, I am saying that the Alliance should not be permitted to have an identical elf to the Blood Elves. Were the Elves to have been zapped by the light and ended up glowing as white as a hot sun, that would have been a similar level of differentiation to that achieved by the Void Elves in terms of aesthetics, potential culture and racial destiny. But they weren't zapped by the light, they were zapped by the void.

What is identical when people have suggested model changes/story avenues/racials/culture/voice lines etc that all deviate from Blood Elves with the only possible "identical"ness being that they're of a fair skin aesthetic, which by your own admission above can be differentiated as they've done with purple elves?

What is identical about any of the suggestions that the High Elf request has made? Why is your focus always on preventing a similar shade of skin to Blood Elves when you're ok with the similar shades of purple between Nightborne/Night Elves/Void Elves?

And as I have hopefully illustrated above, using the Nightborne is not a great counter-argument.

All you've done is make it more blatant that your focus is a vendetta against Alliance High Elves and some weird form of preserving Blood Elves as the only fair skin elf. Seeing as you're ok with purple Blood Elves and hypothetically 'glowing white as hot sun' elves but not any shade similar to Blood Elves.

How does it make no sense? If a race is already playable for an existing faction, then that should be respected. For example if Ogres were to go to the Alliance in some unexpected twist, I would accept that, argue that Ogres are now an Alliance race, and that those in the Horde who were having difficulty with that choice based on their historic attachments would have to get over it.

Similarly when Vulpera were hypothetical and available for each faction, whilst I argued for their addition as a Horde allied race, I was clear that that was not a given and that those arguing for them to be added to the Alliance should be heard as it could go that way and that was a fair position for those players to have until the moment Vulpera were declared to be a Horde race.

It makes no sense because you're showing to having a vendetta particularly against Alliance High Elves, that's what doesn't make sense. You're not out across the other race suggestions going at it as hard to argue against them as you are with frequently returning to this topic and honestly repeating the same thing over and over again to where I and other posters have even commented that all you do really is repeat your points over and even try to shut the discussion down.

If you're focusing on this one specific race request then it can only come off as some vendetta. As also whether the High Elves became playable or not has no effect on the Blood Elf race option themselves, they are not going to suddenly disappear from the game just because another High Elf option similar in skin color becomes available.

And your bit about having to accept Ogres on Alliance if they were a thing, no shit. We all have to accept whatever the developers do for their game because they control it, not us. That doesn't mean that everything they do doesn't allow players to disagree with or voice that disagreement and it also doesn't mean players cannot keep requesting what they wish for in the game and spend their time brainstorming such ideas - regardless of whether the developers have those ideas come to fruition or not.

As long as a race is not playable within either faction, then players of both factions are quite welcome to agitate for their addition. But once a race is added to a faction, that should be accepted as being a part of that faction from that moment onwards.

This last bit here to me seems like you are again trying to stifle people from requesting what they'd like. Everyone knows Blood Elves are part of the Horde, that doesn't mean shit to people here who are requesting High Elves. And just because people accept that Blood Elves are on Horde does not mean that they don't get to continue requesting the race in their faction to be playable.

To put it simply, as I said before: Horde and Alliance are like sports teams. In this context, what the other team gets doesn't mean shit to the other. Take that with the context of what I'm about to say below.

What Alliance players are requesting are for a race option to be playable that is a part of their team (High Elves). Alliance players do not care that Horde team has Blood Elves. Alliance players continue to request and brainstorm ways that their teammate (High Elves) can be made playable instead of being always benched.

Trying to convince Alliance players to go play Horde is like trying to ask a die-hard sports fan to go support their rival team.

- - - Updated - - -

Also @Obelisk Kai since it seems like you're just trying to keep blatantly convincing people to just play a Blood Elf know that I won't reply to any counter you give here. If you accept Nightborne taking an old part of Night Elf civilization and being aesthetically different purple elf then you should be able to accept High Elves running with a different part of Thalassian Elf civilization and being aesthetically different fair skin elf.

As long as you continue to think Nightborne are okay as a variance of Night Elf but High Elves cannot in any way be a variance of Blood Elf then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

- - - Updated - - -

I could get behind void elves if they had been explored better. WHat we have so far is so little, I can't get into their mindset nor empathize with them. It feels like they are directionless, and their theme is defined just by the color of the magic they use. It feels very shallow and messy, it's like Blizzard has no idea of what to do with them.

This is my gripe with Void Elves. It's that they're spoken about as controlling the Void in order to control the whispers but this is never displayed or explored further other than within the origin. Then when we play we either have basically complete control as players/Umbric/7th Legion Void Elves or they're complete psychos (Riftrunners).

I think this has more to do with gameplay rather than lore though as the same thing is with Mages in WoW. In the books magic is this taxing thing that requires rest and in WoW that wouldn't jive with the power fantasy of players so it's handwaved and just a normal thing that isn't taxing at all.

[Obelisk Kai]

We already have a lore precedent as for why that wouldn't be the case with most beings - from departed souls who've decided to become Kyrians and thus lost their identity (and any desire to return to their old lives with it) to those whose anima has been bestowed onto the Wild Gods who have entered the afterlife and become fuel for their resurrection. And, of course, any souls trapped in Revendreth wouldn't be surrendered until they'd been "reformed" through whatever processes the Venthyr espouse, as is the case with the Shade of Kael'thas we're going to meet up with. The long ago dead would've already been processed, any hope for their resurrection gone with their embers of their anima. Quite possible this is true of the High Elven dead as well, as we don't really know if time works the same in the Shadowlands or not, though given the persistence of Kael'thas it seems likely some remain in other regions of the Shadowlands, if not alongside him in Revendreth.

As for where the resurrected High Elven dead would go, that remains to be seen. I'm thinking more of it in terms of the story as opposed to terms of faction balance or what have you. If you wanted to divert them to the Alliance you could simply have them find common cause with them through some narrative hook - a reaction against the damned shade of Kael'thas, agreement with their exiled kin, a combination of the two, or even knowledge of and/or a desire for vengeance against Sylvanas for reasons new to the story. If you wanted to divert them to the Horde you could just have them agree with their living Blood Elven kin, or perhaps remain loyal to the former ideas of Kael'thas, etc. etc.

There remains an inelegance in the proposal however, an inorganic quality that almost sticks in the craw. It wouldn't be the case with most beings, but it would be the case for High Elves. Does this mean that a choice would have to be made? Would Tyrande be on one side arguing for the restoration of the Night Elves lost in Teldrassil, Veressa arguing for the resurrection of the dead High Elves and Velen arguing for the resurrection of slain Draenei and for some reason, the High Elves would win?
This is because the proposal is to resurrect the dead high elves, yet to do so in such a way that does not immediately lead to the resurrection of everyone. If time is a factor and the dead high elves have not been processed by the afterlife, then the slain Night Elves of Teldrassil are surely also within reach and could be resurrected upon the inevitable fall of Torghast.

I don't think this suggestion is going to work. It simply begs too many 'But what about' questions, and while it is possible each question could get an answer, the sheer numbers of answers would just reinforce the artificial and arbitrary nature of the outcome, which is to bring dead high elves back to life in the hopes they can form the basis of an Alliance allied race. Some proposals have the ring of the possible about them. High Elf like skins have that ring, I think they are unlikely for a host of other reasons, but the base suggestion itself is plausible. This does not have that ring, there is a forced, inauthentic quantity about it. It would have to be so heavily caveated in order to prevent the logic of resurrecting the dead being extended to everyone else deserving of it that the explanation presented by Blizzard would shatter suspension of disbelief.

No, I don't believe the dead will come back in Shadowlands on anything approaching the scale required to populate a new Allied race. The logic of such an event would erase the meaningful consequences of death in Azeroth and rob all previous tragedies of their power and meaning.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think BfA will end the Allied Race system, myself. It was one of the more effective features of both Legion and BfA and I think it's going to be around for some time still. Shadowlands showcases a lot of new races for its various thematic zones, and I can't help but expect a few of these might be joining the Alliance or the Horde as Allied Races in the final confrontation with both Sylvanas and the Jailer. The Kyrians and the Necrolords seem like two strong contenders for the Alliance Race treatment, though the Night Fae and Venthyr are possible as well.

Enhanced customization offers up a lot of potential, don't get me wrong - but Allied Races add both story and plot hooks to the game, above and beyond elements designed to be more or less retrofitted into the existing game world.

They have confirmed BFA will not be the end of the Allied race system, but they also said they didn't want to overuse the system either as they did not want the Alliance and Horde to collapse in identity-less, formless blobs as a result of having too many options. Allied races will come where they make sense.

In regards to the Shadowlands, I believe the number of potential additions to the factions are zero. While I could be wrong, the Shadowlands are not like any other realm we have ever encountered. We are not supposed to be there, it is the realm of death. The races found in the Shadow Land are probably creatures of the realm, creatures I suspect will have immense difficulties existing outside it.

And as we are not supposed to be there, it is not too much of a stretch to presume that the end result of the Shadowlands will be the closing of our access to it, similar to how we have lost access to Draenor and Argus.

[Aucald]

I could get behind void elves if they had been explored better. WHat we have so far is so little, I can't get into their mindset nor empathize with them. It feels like they are directionless, and their theme is defined just by the color of the magic they use. It feels very shallow and messy, it's like Blizzard has no idea of what to do with them.

Whereas that's kind of the thing about Void Elves I most enjoy - they're new, they don't have a history nor do they have a direction yet, we are living their history in the story in real time, so to speak. No other race in WoW shares in that distinction, to my knowledge, while some may be new to us they've existed themselves since time out of mind. The Void Elves are more literally new beings, forged by the Void energies that shaped them - with little anchor to the past and a future that is wide open to explore. It is messy, I agree, in the same way a crazed artist's workshop or a crucible of creation is often messy. A mess with a lot of potential.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Still here? I remember this thread in like 2013 lmao and it's still going.

[Aucald]

There remains an inelegance in the proposal however, an inorganic quality that almost sticks in the craw. It wouldn't be the case with most beings, but it would be the case for High Elves. Does this mean that a choice would have to be made? Would Tyrande be on one side arguing for the restoration of the Night Elves lost in Teldrassil, Veressa arguing for the resurrection of the dead High Elves and Velen arguing for the resurrection of slain Draenei and for some reason, the High Elves would win? This is because the proposal is to resurrect the dead high elves, yet to do so in such a way that does not immediately lead to the resurrection of everyone. If time is a factor and the dead high elves have not been processed by the afterlife, then the slain Night Elves of Teldrassil are surely also within reach and could be resurrected upon the inevitable fall of Torghast.

À chacun son goût as the saying goes. I don't think anything necessarily implies a choice must be made - that seems to me more a contrivance to deny a choice being made at all, really. More a "thing" happens that leads to this outcome in a series of events that can't or won't be easily replicated. Similar has happened before, after all. We don't know if any of the unfortunate and falsely damned souls in the Maw are recoverable, either; their anima may have been quickly consumed by the Jailer to fuel the shattering of the barrier between the realms, or any other thing, really. We can really only speculate, and many outcomes are currently equally likely.

I don't think this suggestion is going to work. It simply begs too many 'But what about' questions, and while it is possible each question could get an answer, the sheer numbers of answers would just reinforce the artificial and arbitrary nature of the outcome, which is to bring dead high elves back to life in the hopes they can form the basis of an Alliance allied race. Some proposals have the ring of the possible about them. High Elf like skins have that ring, I think they are unlikely for a host of other reasons, but the base suggestion itself is plausible. This does not have that ring, there is a forced, inauthentic quantity about it. It would have to be so heavily caveated in order to prevent the logic of resurrecting the dead being extended to everyone else deserving of it that the explanation presented by Blizzard would shatter suspension of disbelief.

Questions that can be easily answered by a good story, and it would need be a good one to fuel such a notion, IMO. You seem overly focused on this idea of High Elves as "an Alliance Allied Race," as well; and I said before I'm not even saying this idea (far-fetched as I admit it is) is bound to that result. The returned Quel'dorei dead could easily join the Horde alongside the Sin'dorei if the right story were told, all depends on the circumstances and characters involved. You may not like it, and that's fine, I'm sure it's not an idea for everyone - and even I admit it may rob the Blood Elven storyline of some its poignancy if the losses of the Third War could somehow be rectified (although I think that ship has already sailed, unfortunately).

No, I don't believe the dead will come back in Shadowlands on anything approaching the scale required to populate a new Allied race. The logic of such an event would erase the meaningful consequences of death in Azeroth and rob all previous tragedies of their power and meaning.

The very essence of that ship also sailed with the Mag'har, Orcs retrieved from the collapse of their bottle-universe through time magic. The concept of the Shadowlands also may serve as a hefty rebuke, as we're set to explore one of WoW's last pristine spaces from a cosmological standpoint. Death has quite literally never been so meaningless as its about to become (not that death was ever more than a slap on the wrist in the WoW universe).

They have confirmed BFA will not be the end of the Allied race system, but they also said they didn't want to overuse the system either as they did not want the Alliance and Horde to collapse in identity-less, formless blobs as a result of having too many options. Allied races will come where they make sense.

In regards to the Shadowlands, I believe the number of potential additions to the factions are zero. While I could be wrong, the Shadowlands are not like any other realm we have ever encountered. We are not supposed to be there, it is the realm of death. The races found in the Shadow Land are probably creatures of the realm, creatures I suspect will have immense difficulties existing outside it.

Didn't know there had been official confirmation, but that stands to reason. I would also counsel they hold back for a bit on new races and let the current Allied Races settle in and get more traction. I don't expect it very much, though; as the window on these races is often just an expansion's length - move too slowly and you lose the impetus of the spotlight. As for the Shadowlands, well, an open door permits travel in two directions - just as we can travel to the realms of the afterlife in the flesh it stands to reason some beings native to those realm may gain the trick as well. You could well be right, but you could just as well be wrong.

And as we are not supposed to be there, it is not too much of a stretch to presume that the end result of the Shadowlands will be the closing of our access to it, similar to how we have lost access to Draenor and Argus.

And yet Argus and Draenor are still with us, in the form of the Lightbound Draenei and the Mag'har Orcs. The same may well prove true of the Shadowlands at the end of the day.

[Varodoc]

To be honest I never completely understood why some people have an issue with Umbric being an "asspull". Sure we never heard of this guy before Legion, but why is it a problem? Azeroth is a massive world inhabited by so many individuals, we can't hear about all of them. Umbric himself was a relatively minor figure, he was just one magister who was exiled, that's hardly news that would spread, in a world constantly hit by world-ending threats nonetheless. Furthermore, and this is the most important part, Umbric and his group where nowhere to be found. All traces of them had been lost and Alleria had to devote a lot of effort and time to tracking them down. Given his background and whereabouts, it makes sense that nobody ever heard of Umbric before.

That's why I personally don't have an issue with the introduction of Umbric and his research group. Yes, he was a new character we had never heard of before, but that doesn't come off as unbelievable because he wasn't some huge political figure, he was just literally just a generic magister who was exiled and presumed death. That's hardly news that would spread beyond the government of Quel'thalas. That makes his sudden appearance a lot more tolerable.

[Obelisk Kai]

You're one to talk.

Nor have I ever hid my bias, but I am biased in favour of the status quo whereas you are biased against it. There is a difference there.

All you do is to return to this thread, over and over and over, and repeat the same tired arguments. Arguments that people here have analyzed and explained why they don't work as well as you think they do. "Unique model" is no longer a viable argument with allied races. "Unique skin color" is also no longer a viable argument with allied races. "Low population" is no longer an argument, again, thanks to allied races. "Unique history" is also no longer a viable argument, once more, thanks to allied races: nightborne and night elves share the exact same history, up ot the point of the Sundering. Void elves and blood elves share the exact same history, up to the point of Umbric's banishment from Silvermoon.

Arguments are not exhausted by repetition. The factors that are against high elves are as true today as the day they were revealed to us, they are not physical objects worn away by overuse. When you say those arguments have been analysed, what you mean is that they were analysed by people such as yourself who have an innate high elf bias. That bias ruins the objective analysis and cannot be regarded as a definitive judgement anymore than a left wing analysis of political issues can be objectively critiqued by a right winger.

Your mention of model and skin colour is confusing. Void Elves and Nightborne prove the models can be shared, but that at a minimum some form of physical alteration must take place to justify their addition as a variant. Void Elves are purple/blue with tentacles. Nightborne have a very severe colouration compared to Night Elves and a reduced musculature for males.

In terms of unique history, the Nightborne example is also unusual given that the Sundering happened ten thousand years ago in game. That is ten thousand years of separate development from Night Elves. It would be akin to arguing that Humans in the real world are practically identical due to our stone age origins. With Void Elves you may have more of a point, but the past isn't the issue for the Void Elves. The result of their transformation is their unique destiny, their new future. The high elves are still bound to the Sunwell, same as the Blood Elves.

Low population remains the lore argument against high elves due to the fact it has been cited by the developers on nearly every occasion they have been asked about high elves. Two of those occasions were post the introduction of Void Elves. If Void Elves invalidated the population argument, it begs the question why the population argument was then cited on those two occasions against High Elves.

They are the exact same kind of troll. Lavishing themselves with riches and living atop a golden pyramid does not make them a "different kind" of troll.

From Vol'Jin, Shadows of the Horde, Chapter 10

"...All Troll tribes had descended from their noble lineage, corrupting themselves as they pulled away. One needed to look no further than physiology to prove it: She stood taller than any other troll she'd met who was not a pureblood Zandalari ..'

Zandalari are the original Trolls and have maintained a perfect Troll form. Other Troll tribes have degraded over the millenia and earned the contempt of the Zandalari in the process, whereas the other Trolls held the perfect Zandalari in reverence. I recommend reading the book yourself. Vol'jin often comments on the physical differences of the Zandalari to other Trolls, at one point even thinking of them as the 'high elves' of the Trolls.

Zandalari are not the exact same kind of troll in other words. There is enough difference physically, aesthetically and culutrally to justify them as a distinct variant of already playable Trolls and these differences are acknowledged in-universe. I am afraid the copious amounts of available evidence shows that you are wrong on this point.

But not all high elves are blood elves. This is what you have to accept. Blood elves are no longer high elves, as far as the game, and lore, are concerned. They've given up on the name, while some Thalassian elves did not. To continue to refer to the blood elves as 'high elves' is dishonest since it ignores and denies the existence of groups actually called 'high elves' in lore and in the game. Want to refer to all the races of elves? There is a name for that: Thalassian elves.

Blood Elves are High Elves. Chris Metzen attested to it. Ion Hazzikostas attested to it on two occasions. The character creation textbox in the character creator. That some high elves exist outside the Blood Elves is irrelevant, as Blood Elves are High Elves, High Elves are playable. What defines those high elves who exist outside the Blood Elves is not a physical difference, or an aesthetic difference or even a cultural difference, it is their political difference. That is not enough to justify an Allied race. It is not enough to warrant violating faction diversity. The option exists, just as the inability to play Dragonmaw Orcs or Defias Humans because of their political stance mean that Orcs and Humans are not playable.

Again, your argument falls short: Zandalari trolls are still trolls. They have been given different posture simply for the sake of differentiation, same case with the Kul'Tiran humans.

Please see above and please read the Vol'Jin novel where the physical differences between Zandalari and other trolls are explained as the other Trolls degrading compared to the perfection of the Zandalari.

It's not "esoteric", it's basic character design 101.

No, it is esoteric. Allied races facilitated the introduction of variants, the emphasis being on 'variant'. You are the only person who seems to be arguing that similar and identical are, well, identical. Similar is not identical, it means there is still a level of difference between the two. Void Elves are similar to Blood Elves. High Elven Exiles are identical to Blood Elves. Similar was permitted. Identical is not.

Which is your interpretation, but I don't recall hearing or seeing the developers say anything that contradicts what I say regarding unique silhouettes for this to be a dichotomy.

To be fair, on past form, had they made such an explicit statement you would instead be arguing why what they said didn't matter or did not count. However, silhouettes are no longer an issue and that was primarily an active gameplay issue that they decided didn't matter once they introduced Pandaren. What matters more is the maintenance of two distinct factions comprised of distinct memberships.

In your opinion. We still have high elves being shown in the Alliance, being part of the Alliance, helping the Alliance, fighting for the Alliance. They point is that they exist, and the population argument doesn't fly anymore.

Continually restating the population argument 'doesn't fly anymore' when Blizzard are the ones who keep citing it is another case where either we accept your interpretation or that of the developers. The population argument is the lore based rationale for why they are not playable, not the gameplay rationale. The lore based rationale supports the gameplay based rationale, as were they not scattered and almost dead, were they actually a strong and vibrant community, the gameplay rationale would be harder to defend. The gameplay rationale of course is that a high elf option exists on the Horde and if you wish to avail of that option, it is there.

She and the Silver Covenant were still there. It doesn't matter if she had no spoken lines to the PC.

The Silver Covenant was not there, unless their population has decreased to the point that Veressa is the sole one left. Whilst I admit I found that idea attractive, even I don't think they have declined that much. Regardless, she was there alone, she was there with Alleria, she was there because it was a major point in Sylvanas' character arc. And that is all she did.

The draenei are also "traitors" to their original state. The night elves are also "traitors" to their original state. The blood elves as a whole are also "traitors" since their leader was Kael'Thas and they rebelled against him. And speaking of traitors... how many times have the orcs rebelled against their leaders, just in this decade?

It is not the status of traitors that hurts their cause, it is the acknowledgement that they have betrayed Quel'thalas. To betray Quel'thalas and it's people, they had to be of Quel'thalas and it's people in the first place. Which means that agreeing they are traitors agrees that they and the Blood Elves are the same people. And that as a result, playable Blood Elves are playable High Elves.

Funny how the only ones that call the void elves a 'compromise' are the anti-high-elf group. I don't think I heard or saw a WoW developer refer to the void elves as 'compromise'.

Ion said that the Void Elves were given to the Alliance to be 'something like a Blood Elf whilst having a unique flavour of their own' moments after stating Blood Elves are High Elves and that High Elves in the Alliance undermine the diversity of the factions. That seems a fairly straightforward explanation of the compromise to me, a type of high elf that is distinct from a blood/high elf and has it's own destiny.

As for why the pro high elf community refuses to accept the compromise, I thought that was self-evident, the hope that Blizzard can be made to reconsider if the compromise isn't accepted.

It's not a "mistaken" point. It's how it is. It's how the game presents them to us: high elves is a group, and blood elves is another group. They're not the same. They were once the same, but no longer, ever since the blood elves took on a different moniker and dropped their customs of old in lieu of survival.

Blood Elves do not seem to have dropped their customs. As show in an earlier list of everything Blood Elves possess, there is a continuity between the high elves and blood elves. Since the restoration of the Sunwell, the Blood Elves have been portrayed as bog standard fantasy cliché high elves with little in the way of their former edginess.

All that can be proven to have changed is the name and their eye colour, and as recent events have shown such a change is highly mutable. Were Lor'themar to issue a decree saying they were going back to being high elves, that single change of adjective would deprive pro High elf advocates of the biggest accepted difference.

[Shakana]

To be honest I never completely understood why some people have an issue with Umbric being an "asspull". Sure we never heard of this guy before Legion, but why is it a problem? Azeroth is a massive world inhabited by so many individuals, we can't hear about all of them. Umbric himself was a relatively minor figure, he was just one magister who was exiled, that's hardly news that would spread, in a world constantly hit by world-ending threats nonetheless. Furthermore, and this is the most important part, Umbric and his group where nowhere to be found. All traces of them had been lost and Alleria had to devote a lot of effort and time to tracking them down. Given his background and whereabouts, it makes sense that nobody ever heard of Umbric before.

That's why I personally don't have an issue with the introduction of Umbric and his research group. Yes, he was a new character we had never heard of before, but that doesn't come off as unbelievable because he wasn't some huge political figure, he was just literally just a generic magister who was exiled and presumed death. That's hardly news that would spread beyond the government of Quel'thalas. That makes his sudden appearance a lot more tolerable.

I don't have any problem with Umbric, he was with people that were interested in studying the same as him, and he just led them, not his fault they got under transformation by void ethereals when a research of the void to be a force that would protect silvermoon and the sin'dorei. But he got exiled even before anything because he was "a threat" for the sunwell. Him and others with him only persisted in the research after that.

Alleria tracking them down was the best part.

[Varodoc]

I don't have any problem with Umbric, he was with people that were interested in studying the same as him, and he just led them, not his fault they got under transformation by void ethereals when a research of the void to be a force that would protect silvermoon and the sin'dorei. But he got exiled even before anything because he was "a threat" for the sunwell. Him and others with him only persisted in the research after that.

Alleria tracking them down was the best part.

While all of that is true, I am more addressing the criticism that Umbric and the Ren'dorei are trash just because they were introduced out of nowhere. There was an actual in-universe reason for that, which can easily be imagined.

[Obelisk Kai]

In regards to the Mag'har/Lightforged topic that you agree there would be pushback should mean you also understand why people are here agitating for High Elves in the Alliance. Simply put, like how you're showing understanding in the Mag'har/LF scenario if it occurred shows you understand the basic premise of "we did not get what we were asking for, so we're going to keep requesting it" yet your posting has shown lack of this understanding and trying instead to convince others to just "settle with what you got."

The Dark Ranger is a comparison point to show that majority of players do understand the nuances of the game and some people like you keep trying to Red Herring when discussing High Elves as a playable option in the Alliance, by trying to turn around the name of a particular group within the Alliance called "High Elves" with the race of high elves which is shared with Blood Elves. Let me link an example: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...gers_with_the/

None of the comments there are exclaiming that "Dark Rangers are finally playable" simply because one can look the part. This is the same as how you and others constantly go "play Blood Elves they look like the High Elves so they're already playable" which is a dishonest argument because the point of an Alliance High Elf is that they're one of the many groups within the Alliance such as Silver Covenant or Highvale or Allerian Stronghold etc.

So just as it would be dishonest for one to say "look Dark Rangers are available now! You can look like them! Go play them!" it's as dishonest to say "Alliance players, the High Elves are available! Go play the Blood Elves on the Horde!" because your premise with using that argument is focused on appearance and nothing else.

And regards to the faction pride bit, that you say High Elves on Alliance who have appeared numerous times among Alliance ranks throughout several expansions are equatable to Horde Ogres who only appeared among Horde ranks in one expansion just continues to show the bias you have within this topic while arguing against the High Elf request.

You state that "things have moved on" and then in that same paragraph act as if players are speaking of High Elves from WC3 days when people have been using evidence of High Elves among Alliance ranks in as recent as the current expansion of BfA. I think you should update your view as the reality of the game shows that High Elves are still a part of the Alliance and if such a lesser exposed race as Ogres can be requested for Horde then so can the much more exposed and frequent appearances of Alliance High Elves.

I don't believe the Dark Ranger point is one that works. They are not a race, they are a hypothetical class and at the moment they seem to be a distinct grouping of forsaken hunters. To ask for Dark Rangers in my opinion is to akin to asking for a playable Farstrider class. In truth, given the Dark Ranger leader was Nathanos, despite Dark Rangers being commonly portrayed as undead elves, that in lieu of their being a playable undead race the best way to play a Dark Ranger is to roll an Undead Hunter (in fact I believe that is the rationale behind Undead Hunters being added in Cataclysm, the expansion of the previously undead elf dominated order).

Regardless of that, high elves are playable and if the fantasy of playing a high elf is the primary motivating factor then yes, you should roll a Horde Blood Elf. Blood Elves are not high elves just by appearance, they literally are high elves in every single respect except a single adjective in their name. They possess the substance of the race. To argue that blood elves are not high elves, and that the exiles are the real high elves, is to argue that a group who have abandoned their people and their land have the right to be regarded as the 'true' expression of the high elf fantasy based solely on their political alignment towards the Alliance. That is a position I wholeheartedly disagree with.

In regards to Alliance high elves, there are few alliance high elves and they have had barely any impact on the game, likely as much as the Ogres from Stonemaul have had. There are several more high elves who live in Dalaran and who have formed an organised Silver Covenant militia, but they are not a full and proper part of the Alliance as evidenced by their inability to participate in the recent war.

You don't understand because you are being blatantly biased from the get-go. You cannot state that, "duplicating a core part of the Horde fantasy to the Alliance is disrespectful" and then ignore that Nightborne are duplicating the Highborne Alliance fantasy of Night Elves to the Horde faction. As per your own words that should be disrespectful and yet the developers did it. The developers even knowingly did it admitting that they knew whichever side didn't get the Nightborne would feel let-down.

This is why I bring up the Nightborne. I'll cover it more below as your responses reference them often.

The fundamental philosophical split between the elves of Azeroth is that between the highborne and the lowborne. The Highborne, who gave rise to the Blood Elves and Nightborne, are characterised by highly urbane, magic orientated civilizations. The Nightborne of course are a time capsule of the old Night Elf empire, except one shorn of Elune worship and dedicated solely to magic. The lowborne rejected the path of the Highborne following the invasion of the Burning Legion and embraced an arboreal, druidic lifestyle.

To argue that the Nightborne represent an Alliance fantasy is easily disproved and is akin to claiming that the Vrykul are an Alliance fantasy because Humans are a part of the Alliance, which ignores the many millenia of separation. The Night Elf fantasy is arboreal and druidic, as previously stated, and that is an inalienable part of the Alliance. The Nightborne culture on the other hand is far closer to the urbane, magic orientated Blood Elves which is unsurprising given their shared origins with the highborne. It was this similarity in fact that tempted the Nightborne into the Horde in the first place

So here you're showing that it is okay for Nightborne to go ahead and take the old portion of Night Elven civilization and revitalize it on the opposite faction. Then on the same note decry that Alliance High Elves cannot be "radically different" and still have their story tied to the Sunwell when the game has gone long past the point of referencing any High Elf on Alliance as being drawn to the Sunwell in such fervor that the Blood Elves are.

You said it yourself, old portion. Yes, it was perfectly fine as this aesthetic and fantasy was not in use by the Night Elves (whose new civilization was predicated entirely on their rejection of this old civilization) and in fact, this aesthetic and fantasy parallels that of the Blood Elves. It reinforces the fantasy of the Horde as the home of the magically inclined city elves.

Here's the thing, if on one hand it's okay to take a portion of a race's past and run with it (Nightborne), how is it not possible that High Elves who are not Blood Elves can't do this as well? (This is ignoring the fact that the High Elf request doesn't even argue this)

Rejecting the premise of your question because Nightborne do not such thing, it is because only fifteen years have passed since the split, and not ten thousand, and instead of a full city of Nightborne maintaining a thriving culture there is a handful of exiles who are 'diluting their blood line'.

The High Elf request isn't even focused on past ventures, what people have been requesting is that from the moment that Blood Elves and High Elves became two separate groups on two distinct factions - run with that to add variance to the High Elves that exist on Alliance today and further diverge them from their Blood Elven brethren. The same way that Blizzard did it with the Kul'Tiran, showing some Kul'Tiran with bulky boisterous bodies in a society where multiple different body types exist. And all it took was one expansion as we had Kul'Tiran soldiers in Legion that still shared the same model as playable Humans.

Kul Tirans have also been stuck on a relatively isolated island for the past two millenia. It is strongly implied that certain environmental factors are behind the development of their unique body type. Emphasis again on the two millenia, there was a sufficient length of time for differentiation to occur that is plausible. Yes, this is a magical universe, and physical differentiation can be explained by the use of magic to provoke such changes. Which is what they with Void Elves.

What this is showing is what I said before. That you're more concerned with keeping a "fair skin elf aesthetic" completely to the Horde and not actually against the idea of a High Elven race option on the Alliance. Because if Void Elves are okay by your own words and as per your own words below you can denote the different shades of purple contained within the 3 purple elves we have now, then what are you truly arguing against if the High Elf request has always been open about changing the model (aka physical changes)/racials/culture of Alliance High Elves to reflect a different kind of "fair skin elf" just as we have 3 different kinds of purple elves?


Skin color is a determining factor as Ion himself said eye color isn't as much of a differentiating factor (which is why Void Elves ended up sickly blue/purple). Therefore to suggest it isn't and act dumb about is to avoid the question entirely. Why are Horde allowed to have two different (Night vs Day elves) whereas Alliance cannot?

You keep seemingly trying to defend that Void Elves are okay because "they're different enough" when they're literally a purple Blood Elf. Everyone knows this, they share the exact same Thalassian model and yet you are more okay with it than Alliance High Elves who people have argued to have different models/aesthetics/racials but still keep a fair skin look? And if you don't believe think this with Void Elves being just purple Blood Elves look here to this recent thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...llied/fdquh1t/

Where people shortly discuss how Void Elves are just "purple Blood Elves".

Fact of the matter is if you're fine with some race that uses the literal exact same model as Blood Elves only colored different then it appears all you're against is a fair skin elf being on Alliance.

A Warcraft race is defined by culture, theme and aesthetic. Skin tone range is a component of aesthetic. It has also been one of the most common methods used by Blizzard to differentiate an Allied race from it's parent. That skin tone being 'fair' on Blood Elves is incorrect. What is the preserve of the Blood Elves are the skin tones being 'Human' i.e running the gamut from dark skinned, to sallow, to fair as Humans have. At the moment, only fair is represented, but that will be rectified with the customization pass and the addition of new darker skin tones, human darker skin tones, to Blood Elves which was confirmed via interview.

Had they decided to make the Void Elves 'distinct' by giving them all the dark brown skin tones, then that would have been outrageous and unacceptable. What makes the Void Elves different enough therefore is that the skin tones they have are deliberately impossible to replicate within the human range that is a part of the Blood Elf/High Elf aesthetic. It is the same differentiation method used by Blizzard for Mag'har Orcs, Nightborne, Lightforged Draenei and Dark Iron Dwarves.

Who are you to say you know that is what they will be? Do you have secret knowledge about Blizzard's plans? Blizzard has literally shown us that despite a group (Kul'Tirans) having the same exact model for what like 12 years of WoW they can make up a new model for that group just like that. Same for Zandalari (male only as the female model is literally the same as the female Darkspear).

What you're literally saying here that they won't do is exactly what they did with Kul'Tirans when they felt like it. It goes even more out the window when you consider the upcoming increased customizations are very inorganic themselves as being allowed to make as many Dark Trolls makes no sense in any way as we know there's a single one in existence.

Again, you are seemingly ok with all the other made-up shit Blizzard do on the spot whenever they feel like but appear to be strongly and solely against it when it applies to getting Alliance High Elves.

The Kul Tirans appeared essentially once before we went to their homeland. Maybe twice, but rare enough that Blizzard could get away with a retcon. On the other hand we are all intimately familiar with blood/high elves. Retcons get harder to do the more familiar you are with a subject. However, NOW Kul Tirans are a known quantity we are intimately familiar with. Blizzard will not be able to retcon Kul Tirans the same way again.

I would even dispute it was a retcon. A retcon is changing a previously known fact. What Blizzard did with Kul Tirans was fill in a mostly blank canvas. Nothing that came before contradicts anything that was revealed about the Kul Tirans afterwards.

What is identical when people have suggested model changes/story avenues/racials/culture/voice lines etc that all deviate from Blood Elves with the only possible "identical"ness being that they're of a fair skin aesthetic, which by your own admission above can be differentiated as they've done with purple elves?

What is identical about any of the suggestions that the High Elf request has made? Why is your focus always on preventing a similar shade of skin to Blood Elves when you're ok with the similar shades of purple between Nightborne/Night Elves/Void Elves?

Because you can't plausibly explain a culture shift or a model shift in representatives of the same race after a span of only fifteen years. Non hero characters of the same race are represented by the same model, and the different culture idea makes no sense whatsoever. A new culture is not enough to sustain an allied race by itself (or Wildhammers would have been in with a shot) and is actually contrary to what is happening with the exiles, where they are either assimilating into their host territories whilst trying to cling on to a few scraps of their original culture such as Sunwell pilgrimages. Also, they are still connected to the Sunwell, the foundation of their entire race, meaning that their destiny is the same destiny as that of the Blood Elves.

Void Elves I am not ok with, but I tolerate as they are a genuinely different path of elves now due to the influence of the void which courses through them.

All you've done is make it more blatant that your focus is a vendetta against Alliance High Elves and some weird form of preserving Blood Elves as the only fair skin elf. Seeing as you're ok with purple Blood Elves and hypothetically 'glowing white as hot sun' elves but not any shade similar to Blood Elves.

Both the void elves and the hypothetical glowing elves work on the same principle, lore consistent physical differentiation from the Blood Elves on the same lines as other Allied races. It did not matter what tones the Void Elves ended up with so long as they were different from the human tone range of Blood/High Elves. Had the human tone range been kept, something else would have had to change to offer a profound level of physical difference e.g. getting K'thir type faces. Skin tone is not important for the sake of it, skin tone is important as the most obvious physical differentiation between a Blood Elf and a Void Elf.

It makes no sense because you're showing to having a vendetta particularly against Alliance High Elves, that's what doesn't make sense. You're not out across the other race suggestions going at it as hard to argue against them as you are with frequently returning to this topic and honestly repeating the same thing over and over again to where I and other posters have even commented that all you do really is repeat your points over and even try to shut the discussion down.

If you're focusing on this one specific race request then it can only come off as some vendetta. As also whether the High Elves became playable or not has no effect on the Blood Elf race option themselves, they are not going to suddenly disappear from the game just because another High Elf option similar in skin color becomes available.

And your bit about having to accept Ogres on Alliance if they were a thing, no shit. We all have to accept whatever the developers do for their game because they control it, not us. That doesn't mean that everything they do doesn't allow players to disagree with or voice that disagreement and it also doesn't mean players cannot keep requesting what they wish for in the game and spend their time brainstorming such ideas - regardless of whether the developers have those ideas come to fruition or not.

Only the pro High Elf community seeks the duplication of a playable race of one faction to the other. That renders this particular discussion unique.

This last bit here to me seems like you are again trying to stifle people from requesting what they'd like. Everyone knows Blood Elves are part of the Horde, that doesn't mean shit to people here who are requesting High Elves. And just because people accept that Blood Elves are on Horde does not mean that they don't get to continue requesting the race in their faction to be playable.

To put it simply, as I said before: Horde and Alliance are like sports teams. In this context, what the other team gets doesn't mean shit to the other. Take that with the context of what I'm about to say below.

What Alliance players are requesting are for a race option to be playable that is a part of their team (High Elves). Alliance players do not care that Horde team has Blood Elves. Alliance players continue to request and brainstorm ways that their teammate (High Elves) can be made playable instead of being always benched.

Trying to convince Alliance players to go play Horde is like trying to ask a die-hard sports fan to go support their rival team.

You are free to make the request. I am free to challenge it. We play a faction based game. The unique nature of those factions is a huge part of their identity. To duplicate a part of an existing faction to the other faction, just so players of the opposing faction can enjoy a particular racial fantasy without having to commit to the faction itself, is a profoundly unfair request.

A race you liked ended up on the faction you didn't. That's unfortunate from your perspective, but that is how it worked out.

Also @Obelisk Kai since it seems like you're just trying to keep blatantly convincing people to just play a Blood Elf know that I won't reply to any counter you give here. If you accept Nightborne taking an old part of Night Elf civilization and being aesthetically different purple elf then you should be able to accept High Elves running with a different part of Thalassian Elf civilization and being aesthetically different fair skin elf.

As long as you continue to think Nightborne are okay as a variance of Night Elf but High Elves cannot in any way be a variance of Blood Elf then I have nothing further to discuss with you.
.

Your Nightborne example was innately flawed. If you are content leaving me with the last word as to why, that is your decision.

- - - Updated - - -

snip.

You will have to forgive me, I cannot respond to you appropriately given I have made several lengthy responses already to other users but I do not wish to leave you unanswered.

Whilst there is a discussion to be had over this, I will restrict myself to saying that I don't believe Blizzard will want to remove the consequences of death by allowing the slain to come back to life in any great number. Maybe they will take a different view, but it is what I believe based on my own reading of the available information and my own gut instincts in regards to the fantasy and videogaming tropes in play.

[Ielenia]

Arguments are not exhausted by repetition.

Arguments are exhausted when they're repeated ad nauseum despite being countered time and again. You literally bring nothing new to this discussion. You just return every now and then and bring back all the same tired arguments, over and over, no matter how many people counter your arguments. You just ignore them and eventually move on, only to return some time later with, again, the exact same arguments. You don't even vary or change them even a little. You bring the exact same arguments.

From Vol'Jin, Shadows of the Horde, Chapter 10

Ok. I accept that. There are enough physiological differences between the two. But, still, like I said: physiological differences are no longer a necessity. BEs have the same model as VEs, and so do nightborne and night elves. Their differences are minimal and often imperceptible.

Blood Elves are High Elves.

But not all high elves are blood elves. Blood elves are not high elves as far as the game's and lore's nomenclature rules are concerned. When people is going to talk about the Horde elves, they say 'blood elf', not high elf. When a character in the lore is going to refer to the Horde elves, they say 'blood elf', not high elf. Likewise, when one speaks about non-Horde elves, they say 'high elves', not 'blood elves'.

No, it is esoteric.

No, it's not esoteric. Again: character design 101. Nightborne and night elves share basically the exact same model, the tiny changes being so minimal one just will NOT see said changes at all, unless both are armor-less and standing still, side-by-side. Void elves and blood elves have the exact same model, with the skin color being not enough of a differentiation since armor often covers the whole body.

To be fair, on past form, had they made such an explicit statement you would instead be arguing why what they said didn't matter or did not count. However, silhouettes are no longer an issue and that was primarily an active gameplay issue that they decided didn't matter once they introduced Pandaren. What matters more is the maintenance of two distinct factions comprised of distinct memberships.

Which is an argument for the addition of high elves, since high elves have been part of the Alliance for the longest time in WoW, have helped the Alliance and sided with them, and always against the Horde.

Continually restating the population argument 'doesn't fly anymore' when Blizzard are the ones who keep citing it is another case where either we accept your interpretation or that of the developers.

The 'population' argument doesn't fly because of the developers' own actions. Void elves were just a single research group, but now suddenly numbering in the thousands upon thousands, to outnumber the high elves?

It is not the status of traitors that hurts their cause, it is the acknowledgement that they have betrayed Quel'thalas.

"It's not the status of traitors that is the problem. The problem is their status of traitors."

If the head of the kingdom is the kingdom itself, then the blood elves betrayed Quel'Thalas when they sided against Kael'Thas. The orcs also betrayed Orgrimmar and the Horde when they sided against their warchief.

Also, it's arguable that high elves 'betrayed' Quel'thalas. All they did was refuse to be 'mana vampires' and endure the effects of mana addiction on their own, and the response from the ruling caste was to banish them.

Blood Elves do not seem to have dropped their customs. As show in an earlier list of everything Blood Elves possess, there is a continuity between the high elves and blood elves. Since the restoration of the Sunwell, the Blood Elves have been portrayed as bog standard fantasy cliché high elves with little in the way of their former edginess.

I'm talking about their refusal of being 'mana vampires'. The high elves of old would think of it as beneath them.

[Gurluas]

More proof of how until TBC the High elves and Quel'thalas was a core Alliance territory. (It has a boat to Valgarde, an Alliance territory)
Things are different now but that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard took a core Alliance race and gave it to the enemy faction.

I bet that if Ogres were given to the Alliance, but the Stonemaul remained in the Horde you'd have Horde fans crying out for playable Stonemaul, and when they'd get Fel Ogres who were Alliance Ogres turning to Fel and getting exiled, they wouldn't be satisfied because they're not the Ogres Rexxar recruited or who were in the Horde since vanilla.

Thise whole situation is a mess precisely because of this. Alliance fans want to roleplay their High elves, the ones from the Alliance.

[Shakana]

More proof of how until TBC the High elves and Quel'thalas was a core Alliance territory. (It has a boat to Valgarde, an Alliance territory)
Things are different now but that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard took a core Alliance race and gave it to the enemy faction.

I bet that if Ogres were given to the Alliance, but the Stonemaul remained in the Horde you'd have Horde fans crying out for playable Stonemaul, and when they'd get Fel Ogres who were Alliance Ogres turning to Fel and getting exiled, they wouldn't be satisfied because they're not the Ogres Rexxar recruited or who were in the Horde since vanilla.

Thise whole situation is a mess precisely because of this. Alliance fans want to roleplay their High elves, the ones from the Alliance.

Ye I agree with this. I even said somewhere the whole problem is that they gave blood elves to horde. Because if it was alliance no matter the cultures they would still be blood elves playable on alliance with blue eyes on customisation. Which as if they do now it just feels like pandas you can't just tell who is who.
It's intrigant at the very least. And something that will be debatable only for so long by the community.
To be honest all the elves were alliance before anything. Even the nightborne were. Blood elves were the first exception. But nightborne thankfully don't have this separated race that went sideways. They literally all decided to come to the horde. With the help of tyrande refusing them due to azshara similarities and lady liadrin saying they have a home in horde.
Anyways... Even if I were a fan of high elves I would be more than glad to just have the void elves. They are original and a mix of both high elf and blood elf.

[Benomatic]

As I've said before many times, those who want high elves on the alliance want a complete faction experience, same goes for playable ogres on horde.





Why include NPC alliance races in the faction and not make them playable? it makes no sense.

[Obelisk Kai]

More proof of how until TBC the High elves and Quel'thalas was a core Alliance territory. (It has a boat to Valgarde, an Alliance territory)
Things are different now but that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard took a core Alliance race and gave it to the enemy faction.

Using google search I was able to find a source for this image on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...aconcept_maps/

The Original poster annotated the map as 'A concept of the eastern kingdom after the WC3 events'. For context, the Blood/High Elves were not a part of the Alliance at this point, after the third war and prior to Kael linking up with Garithos in the Frozen Throne, as they had left the Alliance following the conclusion of Warcraft 2. However, neither were they hostile to the Alliance. A transportation link to Valgarde seems very plausible for those Elves who had business in Northrend, such as trade or diplomacy. But Quel'thalas was not a core Alliance territory in the immediate aftermath of Warcraft 3, and had not been considered as such since the aftermath of Warcraft 2.

It is well known that the faction system as we know it today was not settled upon until October 2001 and was a response to the success of Dark Age of Camelot. The developers enjoyed that system and felt the Horde-Alliance split would facilitate a team based, them vs us approach to PVP. PRIOR to that switch, they were approaching the world using an Everquest model.
In Everquest, everyone can group with everyone regardless of their race. High Elves, who are hostile to Dark Elves and vice versa, have no bother working and questing together as players. However, approaching an NPC of that city whilst playing one of those races would led to you being attacked. A Dark Elf approaching the High Elf city of Felwithe would not live very long.

You can easily see that Orcs, Trolls and Tauren settlements would have been friendly to each other... Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes would have been friendly to each other and Undead would probably have been hated by everyone but they would have functioned as a sort of 'hard mode' for some people, only able to do business in the Undercity. The Night Elves similarly would likely have been aloof and hostile to everyone.
Once they abandoned the Everquest approach in favour of a more structured faction system, they had to add the Forsaken to the Horde to justify their existence because they couldn't be in a faction on their own, ditto the Night Elves.

Furthermore, there has been no evidence that the high elves were ever considered as a starter player race in World of Warcraft. The Warcraft diary talks about how Naga were definitely planned and ultimately rejected for reasons we are all familiar with. And it talks about rumours that they might have to cut the Undead race due to meet their deadlines (an idea they ferociously resisted) but in none of the interviews or sources dealing with the development of the base game was any indication ever given to high elves being seen as a future alliance race. In fact, had the intent been to add them to the Alliance but they had run out of time or space to add them, then their addition in the burning crusade would have been logical, indeed, Ogres for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance were the predicted races to be announced once rumours appeared that two new races would be added to the game in TBC.

- - - Updated - - -

Arguments are exhausted when they're repeated ad nauseum despite being countered time and again. You literally bring nothing new to this discussion. You just return every now and then and bring back all the same tired arguments, over and over, no matter how many people counter your arguments. You just ignore them and eventually move on, only to return some time later with, again, the exact same arguments. You don't even vary or change them even a little. You bring the exact same arguments.

Since you have not countered the arguments provided, they have not been exhausted according to your own definition.

Ok. I accept that. There are enough physiological differences between the two. But, still, like I said: physiological differences are no longer a necessity. BEs have the same model as VEs, and so do nightborne and night elves. Their differences are minimal and often imperceptible.

So now that you've accepted you are wrong on something, you wish to move the goal posts. After arguing that Zandalari Trolls are the same as ordinary Trolls, now that you can no longer sustain that point of view you are now arguing that physiological differences are no longer a necessity. Which of course is self evidently false. This is the classic example where you keep putting forward something that isn't true and then saying that is 'countering' an argument of mine.
Firstly, if physiological variation was not a necessity, why did Blizzard physiologically vary every single allied race in some respect from their parent?
Secondly, if physiological variation was not a necessity, why did Blizzard reject high elves on the grounds they were already playable as Blood Elves?
Thirdly, if the differences are minimal and imperceptible as you claim, what is stopping you from declaring victory with Void Elves as your high elves?

It seems to me that the differences between void elves and high elves are far from minimal or imperceptible to you because if they were the logic of your position would be that you have high elves. Given that you are rejecting Void Elves for not being the high elves you wish for, it is somewhat hypocritical to argue that the differences between Void Elves and Blood/high elves are minimal and imperceptible.

But not all high elves are blood elves. Blood elves are not high elves as far as the game's and lore's nomenclature rules are concerned. When people is going to talk about the Horde elves, they say 'blood elf', not high elf. When a character in the lore is going to refer to the Horde elves, they say 'blood elf', not high elf. Likewise, when one speaks about non-Horde elves, they say 'high elves', not 'blood elves'.

Which of course is irrelevant. A High Elf option is available as Blood Elves. Nobody says Humans aren't playable because you cannot be a Defias Human. Nobody says Orcs aren't playable because you cannot be a Dragonmaw.

No, it's not esoteric. Again: character design 101. Nightborne and night elves share basically the exact same model, the tiny changes being so minimal one just will NOT see said changes at all, unless both are armor-less and standing still, side-by-side. Void elves and blood elves have the exact same model, with the skin color being not enough of a differentiation since armor often covers the whole body.

Yes, it is esoteric,because the design principle is very clear. Similar and identical are two different concepts. Nightborne and Night Elves are similar in look, but not identical, and they have massive differences in terms of culture and aesthetics. Void Elves and Blood/high elves are similar in look, but not identical, and they have massive differences in aesthetics and destiny now, particularly given the light-void dichotomy they both now represent.

And of course, if they are as close as you keep arguing them to be, that begs the question of why you find Void Elves unacceptable. If Void Elves are unacceptable but high elves would be acceptable, that must be because of a difference between Void Elves and high elves that you find annoying enough to reject the Void Elf compromise over. If a difference exists, even one, your entire point shatters as they move from identical to similar.

Which is an argument for the addition of high elves, since high elves have been part of the Alliance for the longest time in WoW, have helped the Alliance and sided with them, and always against the Horde.

High Elves were the last to join the Alliance, the first to leave the Alliance and the high elf state is currently a full member of the Horde. You are ascribing characteristics to a splinter group, akin to me arguing that the Kul Tirans have been proud members of the Horde ever since the Horde bribed those pirates to open their base to them.

The 'population' argument doesn't fly because of the developers' own actions. Void elves were just a single research group, but now suddenly numbering in the thousands upon thousands, to outnumber the high elves?

Which of course is countered by the fact that Void Elves can recruit as confirmed in the Moorgard interview from last year.

Besides, the population issue isn't the reason high elves aren't playable on the Alliance, the population issue merely supports the gameplay reasons. In that the reason high elves aren't playable on the alliance is that they are playable on the horde, and that if the exiles weren't shattered and degraded as they are but were instead strong and numerous, holding out against their inclusion for gameplay reasons would be a lot less defensible. But as Void Elves are different enough, they don't infringe the integrity of the Horde or the identity of the Blood Elves. There is no gameplay issue regarding Void Elves in other words.

"It's not the status of traitors that is the problem. The problem is their status of traitors."

If the head of the kingdom is the kingdom itself, then the blood elves betrayed Quel'Thalas when they sided against Kael'Thas. The orcs also betrayed Orgrimmar and the Horde when they sided against their warchief.

Also, it's arguable that high elves 'betrayed' Quel'thalas. All they did was refuse to be 'mana vampires' and endure the effects of mana addiction on their own, and the response from the ruling caste was to banish them.

No, the high elven exiles betrayed Quel'thalas when they helped in the purge of Dalaran and sided against their own people in two successive wars.

Kael'thas effectively abdicated his position as King of the Blood Elves once he sided with the Burning Legion as being a pawn of demons wishing to bring about the apocalypse is incompatible with good governance.

But that is beside the point. The point is that acknowledging the exiles as traitors accepts the commonality between them and the Blood Elves and implicitly acknowledges Blood Elves as the playable high elves.

I'm talking about their refusal of being 'mana vampires'. The high elves of old would think of it as beneath them.

That phased lasted a maximum of six years and it was concluded over a decade ago in game time and real time. And the high elves of old clearly didn't think it was beneath them because as the long lived Lorash Sunweaver showed, most of the high elves of old are still around and 90% of them became Blood Elves. This is again a mismatch between the mental image some have of high elves and what high elves actually are.

After all, someone recently said one of the defining traits of the high elves was that they didn't mess with dangerous magics and yet one of the lodges was destroyed in Cataclysm precisely because they were messing with dangerous magics, and a high elf recently died and her corpse became a host for Xal'atath because they were messing with dangerous magics. Messing with dangerous magics is what high elves of all descriptions do.