Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

And yet you don't see an almost 800 page "Official Camp Taurajo Rage" mega-thread of Horde players harping on the same talking points, recycling the same arguments and opinions, and attacking each other for 2 years to the date.


Also, happy 2 year anniversary Official High Elf Discussion Megathread!

You do not need a megathread about a certain topic for that topic to be obnoxiously brought up by the same people.

Besides, why is the complaint directed only at HE fanboys then? If there are 800 pages of discussion, very clearly its not just the fans who repeat the same arguments.

[Strippling]

It's downright amazing how you can be so cold-hearted to write something along the lines of "the death of her husband doesn't matter that much, since she's surrounded by people" with a straight face.

I never said the death of her husband doesn't matter. All I stated was that she could not find solace from her loss within the Alliance or any relationships she had therein. As such, she gravitated toward her undead sister (and subsequently the Horde). The only thing that prevented her from doing so was her children (which is 100% understandable)... but in that time she did not mention or consider the impact joining Sylvanas would have on any "alliance" relations.

You're clearly letting your emotions of high elves get to you, which explains your irrational accusations.

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You do not need a megathread about a certain topic for that topic to be obnoxiously brought up by the same people.

Besides, why is the complaint directed only at HE fanboys then? If there are 800 pages of discussion, very clearly its not just the fans who repeat the same arguments.

The HE fans repeat the same arguments, the "anti's" repeat the same facts and explanations presented both in game and by the game developers as to why high elves won't and shouldn't be playable.

[elbleuet]

Fact is... Your own opinions aren't facts.
And dev who often lie/aren't aware of their own lore/say bullshits to their playerbase aren't always trustworthy.

[Ielenia]

And yet you don't see an almost 800 page "Official Camp Taurajo Rage" mega-thread of Horde players harping on the same talking points, recycling the same arguments and opinions, and attacking each other for 2 years to the date.

The only reason this "harping and repeating" happens is because those against the implementation of high elves as a playable race come here repeatedly and "harp on the same talking points, recycling the same arguments and opinions" that were already debated over and over in the past, acting as if their arguments were never challenged the other countless times other posters, and sometimes by those same posters themselves, in the past.

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I never said the death of her husband doesn't matter.

You did. Not in the exact words, but it is beyond clear in the wording:

Why would she feel so alone if the Alliance is supposedly so dear to her?

The HE fans repeat the same arguments,

Because the "anti"s repeat the same arguments, no matter how many times those arguments are challenged and answered.

the "anti's" repeat the same facts

In your opinion. The high elf supporters also "repeat the same facts", btw.

[Ardenaso]

Alleria's "mastery" of the Void doesn't really have anything to do with her being Thalassian, it has to do with her willpower and ability to stave off the insanity-inducing quality of the Void and hold on to her true self. This is a personal trait, not really a racial one - Elves don't have any kind of racial resistance to the Void beyond their own will to remain themselves.

The Paladin class is probably off the table because while Priests can and do indulge in the Void (e.g. Shadow Priests) there are no Void or Shadow Paladins, and the Light doesn't co-exist so well with the Void.

maybe not Paladin as in Paladin but maybe a combat type of Warlock/Mage/Battlemage that can control the Void so efficiently without breaking their will

also for Void Druids I'm thinking they could capture their druidic runestone in Caer Darrow and make it voidy and maybe make it their own Fortress for the Alliance

[Strippling]

Fact is... Your own opinions aren't facts.
And dev who often lie/aren't aware of their own lore/say bullshits to their playerbase aren't always trustworthy.

Careful, don't let your opinion blind you from the facts.

FACT: WoW developers have provided explanations as to why alliance high elves are not playable.

OPINION: Elbleuet believes these devs aren't trustworthy.


FACT: WoW devs (the folks developing the very game we're discussing) are a more reliable source than a HE fan with a biased agenda

OPINION: HE fan thinks they're right and WoW devs are wrong about their own game


FACT: Blood elves are our high elves (direct word for word quote from Chris Metzen), and as such, high elves are already playable and available on the Horde

OPINION: The high elf race is not playable

[Aldo Hawk]

FACT: Blood elves are our high elves (direct word for word quote from Chris Metzen), and as such, high elves are already playable and available on the Horde

Obviously your wording is not only poor, but also really misleading, and it's impossible not to think it's made on purpose.

Chris Metzen very clearly referred to the playable character option they recently introduced. Because otherwise, you would be accepting that Metzen has been so blind and ignorant to completely forget and ignore the part of the lore where 'High elf' is a name that is still used and a name that defines a group that is not the Blood elves, within the same warcraft franchise, mind you, not Tolkien.

'Blood elves are our High elves'. It's obviously referring as in comparison to other fantasy worlds, such as the aforementioned Tolkien.

You should learn to separate once and for all the name of the race and the name of the group.

OPINION: The high elf race is not playable

And this is why you have to learn the difference, since that statement is just ridiculous and misinformed.

The High elves are not playable. I play a Blood elf, not a High elf. The Alliance can't play a part of their faction, that are the High elves that still call themselves High elves.

You have been told and explained these things a hundred million times, Strippling, it's only your fault for not getting it at this point to this day.

[Ardenaso]

FACT: Blood elves are our high elves (direct word for word quote from Chris Metzen), and as such, high elves are already playable and available on the Horde

OPINION: The high elf race is not playable

When people say they want High Elves, I think they want a Thalassain race that doesn't align with genocidal warmongers, aren't fel degenerates, colored blue and silver, blue eyes, do not abuse and subjugate the light nor have a history of it, be with the Second/Third War official allies, and be illustrious with castles, chapels, and shits

But still, just let Void Elves be Paladins and Druids and give them fair skin option; the slot is better reserved for Lightbound Orc

Edit: removed the insulting Horde characteristics before anyone else gets the wrong idea

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FACT: WoW devs (the folks developing the very game we're discussing) are a more reliable source than a HE fan with a biased agenda

I might get another infraction for this, but as long as Danuser and Golden are on the writing team, the writing will continue having no direction and the retcons will go on and on

[Ielenia]

FACT: Blood elves are our high elves (direct word for word quote from Chris Metzen), and as such, high elves are already playable and available on the Horde

@Aldo Hawk got it right, but I wanted to add something: "high elf" is a name still used in the game AND lore to define thalassian elves who are NOT blood elves and continue to exist and be used to this day in the game and lore.

OPINION: The high elf race is not playable

Correction: that's a fact.

[Obelisk Kai]

It doesn't even have to be about "needs", it's simply a very popular typical fantasy class/race combo that should just exist on the Alliance side.

This is probably the crux of the issue. Why? Why should it exist on the Alliance side? Because you want it? That's simply not a good enough reason to trash established lore. The established lore that says the high elf exile population is practically non-existent, the established lore that says that what is left of that population consists primarily of hunters and kirin tor mages which drastically limits the number of exiles who could be Paladins. I mean I had to actively search to find a single example of an exile Paladin in modern wow (and not a high elf who is still loyal to Silvermoon as a blood elf) and the only one I could find is Rulen Lightsreap, the class trainer during the wrath of the lich king era in Dalaran.

Of course there is a measure of hypocrisy if he is cited, given the sole high elf exile warlock exists in the same place in Summoner Nolric and I remember quite a few people trying to argue him away as a misstep because his existence contradicts the notion that high elves are defined by their opposition to dangerous magics and are a purer, nobler group (of course the smouldering remains of Quel'Danil lodge should have punctured that notion years ago).

The 'very popular' fantasy of a high elven fantasy exists and is playable as a Horde Blood Elf paladin. It is very arguable, given the marked increase on the importance of the light to Blood Elves and the development of their void themed counterparts in the Void Elves, that the definitive, representative class of the Blood Elves is the Paladin and that to grant that to the Void Elves above all other extant options would do the most damage towards the goal of maintaining a level of difference between the two group.

Whether it occurs through Night Elves or Void Elves or High Elves or Half-Elves even. I just believe it should be an option in the game for the Alliance side. The side that tends to get bemoans of "omg Alliance is so generic fantasy". Which is why most people enjoy Alliance, because it is generic fantasy. So let there be more generic fantasy choices within it, like an Elven Paladin.

In that case it is a Night Elf Paladin as that one has a good chance of actually happening without all the baggage inherent in your Void Elf ideas. A Void Elf paladin is a contradiction in the same way a Lightforged Draenei Demon Hunter is a contradiction.

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But it does exist, blizzard did !

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twilight_Vindicator

The void elves should be able to be paladins because they master the powers of the void by becoming... void elves, they cannot be corrupted like the paladins of the twilight hammer.

Blizzard must add this possibility for new combinations of races / classes.

As the Blood Elves of the TBC era demonstrated, it is possible to bend the light to your will without having devotion to it. Whilst they used the vector of an enslave naaru, the principle was established and it has to be assumed that these twilight hammer paladins were doing something similar.

Regardless, these paladins were not Void Tauren or Void Humans, they were in every other respect normal except for the devotion to the Old Gods. Void Elves have taken the void into their very being and made it a part of them. Void energies and light energies do not and cannot mix because when they do, they react violently against each other. Void Elves are the race that no case can ever be made for them to have Paladins. It is an impossibility because they would most likely blow up should they make the attempt.

[Varx]

So alpha is near, how will this thread react when belves have blue eyes as customisation options.

Better get my popcorn ready.

[Wilfire]

Blizzard fucked up back in WC3 when they introduced the Forsaken and the Night Elves. The Forsaken should have never existed and the Night Elves should have been neutral / hostile. Humans, dwarves, gnomes and high elves for the Alliance in vanilla and orcs, trolls, tauren and goblins for the Horde. All of the drama avoided.

[Obelisk Kai]

So alpha is near, how will this thread react when belves have blue eyes as customisation options.

Better get my popcorn ready.

Easy enough to predict. If Blood Elves get blue eyes, the official forums will get spammed with high elf threads for a few days as some people get upset at the erasure of the sole physical distinction between Blood Elves and the exiles after which things will calm down and those who want playable high elves will argue that the eye colour was never really important, it's the allegiance to the Alliance (i.e the political angle) that really defines them at which point the debate will just continue.

If the eye colour is absent it will be taken as proof that the only reason Blizzard wouldn't have added blue eyes is that they are saving them for a high elf allied race though they could be added in later builds OR it maybe that the blue eyes really don't make sense anymore due to the mixed nature of the modern sunwell (other explanations than a high elf allied race is coming will be given short shrift).

We should have our first hint imminently, alpha absolutely has to launch very shortly because they need a lengthy beta to ensure Shadowlands isn't a second BFA and the longer they leave it the more likely it is they will either rush it to meet a shareholder deadline or it will be delayed into next year (which will definitely upset the shareholders).

[matrix123mko]

But it does exist, blizzard did !

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twilight_Vindicator

The void elves should be able to be paladins because they master the powers of the void by becoming... void elves, they cannot be corrupted like the paladins of the twilight hammer.

Blizzard must add this possibility for new combinations of races / classes.

These elves weren't infused by Void. They just were cultists of Void. Similarly, not every paladin race is lightforged.

[FlubberPuddy]

This is probably the crux of the issue. Why? Why should it exist on the Alliance side? Because you want it?

Yes. Lol. And that's all it has to be. Just like with any race or class or feature or content request any other player has for the game. It doesn't need to go higher than "I want it" and you're mistaken if you think the only things going to be added into the game are things to fix some gap of lackness.

Nightborne are the prime example of this. Why did they go to Horde? Because Blizzard came out and said they had to make a choice at the end of the day, despite knowing both sides wanted Nightborne, and knowing whichever side didn't get them would be upset.

Take for instance their recent answer when being asked "why no new class is in Shadowlands?" their answer is "because nothing in SL jumps out at us for getting a new class unlike the DH with Legion expansion." It was not an answer such as "we think all current niches for classes are fulfilled and thus see no reason to add a completely new one, we'll instead work on the existing classes instead" despite there being people in the playerbase who believe we "have enough classes" and have believed so even before the addition of Monk and DH.

That's simply not a good enough reason to trash established lore.

This implies established lore isn't trash already, despite a bunch of players being upset about the lore and recent retcons and recent lore we've been given. Besides, when Blizzard adds anything new into the game they overwrite "established lore" regardless, which - again, people in the playerbase have not all been happy with all of it.

You're trying to imply people are okay with all the lore they've been writing here, which it isn't hard to see is true in the slightest by looking at what's been said in the community.

And lore does not get in the way of new additions to the game, I believe that's been shown well enough with the recent happenings of what's led to Shadowlands and Sylvanas's involvement with the jailor. The truth is this: Blizzard don't behold themselves to lore, they only use it as justification when it suits their needs at the time and those needs change as time goes on thus they won't hesitate to, using your words, "trash established lore" to suit their needs.

Rest of what you wrote shows you're ok with an Alliance Elf Paladin so I won't comment on that.

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At the end of the day, people are simply trying to get more for the faction they play on working with what's on their faction already. High Elves exist on Alliance side, and people would like to play them, that's all that matters in the context of this thread.

No player needs to care more than that. Just like no one needs to explain themselves for why they want anything added into the game. No point to keep arguing over it.

As an Alliance player I want an Elf Paladin option available. Whether it comes through Night Elves or Void Elves or 'New Elves' doesn't matter. They should just look good. In the meantime I'd even settle for getting Kyrian on Alliance with Paladin as a new race option. Not into Dwarves/Draenei, nor the Horde.

[Strippling]

As an Alliance player I want an Elf Paladin option available. Whether it comes through Night Elves or Void Elves or 'New Elves' doesn't matter. They should just look good. In the meantime I'd even settle for getting Kyrian on Alliance with Paladin as a new race option. Not into Dwarves/Draenei, nor the Horde.

Firstly. the overall health and direction of the game has to be considered above a player's personal wants. For instance, some players want the factions dissembled but Blizzard have come out and said that won't happen. Why? Well they gave one reason, that being that WoW was founded on a Horde vs Alliance system. Another reason (not given directly by a dev but blatantly obvious regardless) is that removing the factions would require massive resources that Blizzard aren't likely willing to commit. They'd essentially have to revamp the entire way the game plays right now.

So, just because you "want high elves" and that "is all it has to be" doesn't mean that it would be a healthy development for the game. It'd directly detract from racial uniqueness and faction distinction (both core aspects of the game), and more.

This is where compromises come in to play. Blizzard (and majority of the playerbase) deemed that the high elf fantasy is already satisfied via the blood elves, and that alliance high elf exiles do nothing but directly impede on that identity already established by the blood elves. So, in order to give a thalassian elf to the alliance BUT at the same time not detract from the racial uniqueness of blood elves, they introduced void elves as a middle ground, or in other words a compromise.

With regards to your want for an alliance elf paladin, again, consideration has to be given as to how best implement this. You may personally want that elf to be a high elf, but that isn't a reasonable solution as A) that'd require alliance high elves to be playable, which we already have reasoning from blizzard as to why they won't be, and B) paladins are not synonymous with alliance high elves, with exception to one example (pointed out by Obelisk Kai) alliance high elf paladins don't exist. The high elven race only produced paladins after they changed their name to blood elves. Any high elf who did not follow their now blood elven kin were not exposed to the practices of "paladism".

Then we have a possible void elf paladin option. Well... Obelisk Kai summed it up pretty well as to why this will never be an option. It just makes zero sense lore wise.

Finally, we have a possible night elf paladin option. Night elves are a playable alliance race - check. Is there precedence for a night elf paladin - check. Does it give alliance an elf paladin option without breaking lore - check. Is it easily implementable - check.

In summary, you want an elf paladin on the alliance and you may prefer it to be a high elf. Problem - High elves ain't happening because blood elves are our high elves and blizzard do not want to blur faction lines. Solution - a compromise is needed for this "want". Conclusion - night elf paladin is the most viable option and is one I'm sure most of the community would be happy with and it would not come at the expense of blurring faction lines.

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[MENTION=1419005]
Correction: that's a fact.

No, that is your opinion.

Fact: blood elves are our high elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

Firstly. the overall health and direction of the game has to be considered above a player's personal wants. For instance, some players want the factions dissembled but Blizzard have come out and said that won't happen. Why? Well they gave one reason, that being that WoW was founded on a Horde vs Alliance system. Another reason (not given directly by a dev but blatantly obvious regardless) is that removing the factions would require massive resources that Blizzard aren't likely willing to commit. They'd essentially have to revamp the entire way the game plays right now.

They said the bold at Blizzcon. Then in an interview afterwards (maybe a month after or so) they said it seems like a cool idea they've internally tested but nothing to announce atm for it now. They also do agree that the "breaking the cycle" moment was a big moment that hasn't been paid off.

So, as with many things - if enough players want it then Blizzard will do it. Transmog is another example, so are cross-realm bgs, LFR, LFD and many other things. All things which had initial pushback from Blizzard before being put in after they changed their mind (or were maybe convinced enough by players it's a good idea).

Like I said, no player has to balance the game, that's Blizzard's onus. Just like there are players that feel like the game isn't in a good state with GCDs yet Blizzard believes so.

Everything they say or do is subject to change, this is common knowledge. Nobody has to "make an argument" for why they want a certain addition into the game - especially concerning race customization options which essentially everyone uses the same exact reason: "because I want more options".

[Ardenaso]

that being that WoW was founded on a Horde vs Alliance system. Another reason (not given directly by a dev but blatantly obvious regardless) is that removing the factions would require massive resources that Blizzard aren't likely willing to commit. They'd essentially have to revamp the entire way the game plays right now.

blizzard do not want to blur faction lines.

Psst.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

I'm thinking this one can help overturn the "blur faction lines". Not that I want High Elves

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They did that to evade internal problems with the population, it's not something they would do to exiles who don't even want to return to their homeland if it stays with it's current allegiances.

I've also thought that they have many reasons to do it given that the Blood Elves is also dwindling in numbers

Quel'lithien Rangers still not wanting pseudo-vampirism? Zap!

Need a forward base in the Hinterlands? Zap!

That priest is still an Uther fanboy? Zap!

Some stubborn wife in Loch Modan chooses Alliance simps instead of her husband? Zap!

Want to secure a place in Dalaran and need to assure total approval from the neutral humans? Zap!

Purge of Dalaran? Zap!

Sylvanas wants her lil' sister back? Zap!

[Ielenia]

No, that is your opinion.

How do I know it's not an opinion, but a fact? Three reasons:
• High elves are a separate faction from the high elves.
• High elves are Alliance-aligned.
• There is no 'High Elf' option in the blue banner in the character creation screen.

Fact: blood elves are our high elves.

Fact: opinions aren't fact.

Especially since it's a fact that "blood elves" and "high elves" are separate groups within the game and lore.

[Strippling]

Psst.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

I'm thinking this one can help overturn the "blur faction lines". Not that I want High Elves

Cool thread, and I appreciate the time and effort you seem to have put into it. Unfortunately though it falls under the same dilemma as high elves... giving those respective races to Alliance and Horde would blur an integral part of the game.

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They said the bold at Blizzcon. Then in an interview afterwards (maybe a month after or so) they said it seems like a cool idea they've internally tested but nothing to announce atm for it now. They also do agree that the "breaking the cycle" moment was a big moment that hasn't been paid off.

Can you link this interview please? Not saying I don't believe you, I just haven't seen said interview and would be interested in watching.

From what I've seen, Blizzard seem to have only reemphasized their view on maintaining factions as of recent.

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How do I know it's not an opinion, but a fact? Three reasons:
• High elves are a separate faction from the high elves.
• High elves are Alliance-aligned.
• There is no 'High Elf' option in the blue banner in the character creation screen.

The original fact I stated was "the high elf race is playable". You believing that blood elves are not high elven is an opinion (one that is wrong mind you).

Secondly, you believing that high elves aren't playable because there isn't a 'high elf' option in the blue banner is also an opinion. It's your opinion that the high elf race is defined by the term "high elf". FACT is, the high elf race in the WoW universe, is defined by blizzard (the game creators) as the blood elves. The blood elves are the very continuation of the high elves from the warcraft RTS's. The blood elves are the next chapter of the high elves in the WoW universe. That is a fact. The descriptions in game for blood elves and their heritage armor quest line clearly indicates that they are what became of the high elves. We then have lead WoW developers affirming this notion. Anything about alliance aligned high elves we see in WoW only indicates that they're a dying group assimilating into human culture. They have no real coordinated aim or direction, and there isn't an example of who or what it means to be an "alliance aligned high elf". We also have lead WoW developers affirming this notion.

FACT: blood elves are our high elves. A fact backed in game and by WoW developers.
OPINION: no they're not cause the handful of dissipating alliance high elves call themselves high elves, so they must be the high elf race. Blood elves are a different race. An opinion backed by Ielenia (a random player with a high elf agenda).

Fact: opinions aren't fact

Agreed. Your opinions aren't fact.

Especially since it's a fact that "blood elves" and "high elves" are separate groups within the game and lore.

This was never about them being separate groups. It was about the fact that the high elf race is available to the Horde.