Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Strippling]

High elves are Alliance, end of story, dude.

Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

If you want to play a pale skinned, blonde elf the Horde is waiting for you - Ion Hazzikostas

Blood elves are the continuation of the high elf story - WoW

End of story, bud.

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And, once again, you don't bother to really read what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd know that the name "void elf" refers to Alleria, and Alleria alone, since it's in singular.

You do realize that on many occasions a races story is progressed via one of their key characters? If Alleria is involved it means we have void elven representation. Likewise, if Alleria is involved it means that void elves will likely be relevant to some degree in Shadowlands and future expansions. Some ARs have had the main part of their story told through a zone, others have been present over the course of many expansions. You're quick to conclude that this won't be the case... and all I'm merely pointing out is that we see Alleria will be relevant (to what degree we don't know yet) in the upcoming expansion, which means there's a good chance her people will too.

But, on the off-chance more void elves are involved in the story, I'm calling it now: we'll see the void elves doing nothing special, nothing that couldn't be done by other races, like the draenei, or humans, or dark iron dwarves, etc. There will be zero actual development for the void elves in that book, other than "they're there!" and a named character here and there that will expand in nothing the almost non-existent void elf lore.

Replace the word "void elf" with "high elf" in the above paragraph and see how silly you sound.

[Ielenia]

You do realize that on many occasions a races story is progressed via one of their key characters? If Alleria is involved it means we have void elven representation.

I don't care one single bit for "representation" if it all boils down to "she's there". I want to see actual lore being developed. And Alleria being involved does not guarantee the void elf lore will be expanded, considering it's much more likely that it's Alleria's own lore that will be expanded/explored in the book, by exploring her relationship and feelings toward her villainous sister.

Replace the word "void elf" with "high elf" in the above paragraph and see how silly you sound.

So you have no argument at all?

[Aldefard Aelfwine]

I literally repeated this like fifty times in this thread, that Pandaren have an absolute amount of 0 (Zero) differences between both factions, and that High elves would have, in the very least, an absolute minimum of visual difference between them and Blood elves.

But hey, by not listening, they just prove to be putting fingers in their ears. The conversation has become two different universes with two different realities telling the other what is true and what is not.

Seems like some people are trying really hard to gatekeep, isn't it?

The funny thing is that few of the anti-helfers mention Shamans in the Alliance and paladins in the Horde, who have no less influence on the identity of the factions than the elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

If you want to play a pale skinned, blonde elf the Horde is waiting for you - Ion Hazzikostas

Blood elves are the continuation of the high elf story - WoW

End of story, bud.

Pay attention, please: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52165801

Even without that, it's stupid to think it means what you think it means, since High elves aren't Blood elves, and both groups aren't unified, or the same, or share faction and boundaries. It's an statement that you thought it meant something that matched your ideology within this topic, it's the live example of a tortured judgement.

I'm not creating new posts to repeat things, I, and many others, have explained this to you in this same thread a thousand times, pay attention.

[scubi666stacy]

Pay attention, please: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52165801

Even without that, it's stupid to think it means what you think it means, since High elves aren't Blood elves, and both groups aren't unified, or the same, or share faction and boundaries. It's an statement that you thought it meant something that matched your ideology within this topic, it's the live example of a tortured judgement.

I'm not creating new posts to repeat things, I, and many others, have explained this to you in this same thread a thousand times, pay attention.

It's rather that Blood Elves are High Elves, and your "High Elves" are dissidents from the same group who refuse to use the new racial name.

[Aldo Hawk]

It's rather that Blood Elves are High Elves, and your "High Elves" are dissidents from the same group who refuse to use the new racial name.

And?

Literally, your point?

[Strippling]

And?

Literally, your point?

The point being that just because you define high elves as "Alliance aligned blue eyed thalassians" doesn't alter the reality that "blood elves are our high elves" as defined by the creator of the WoW universe. Alliance aligned high elves do not define what it means to be "high elven", the blood elves do. So when Ion said they do not want to blur faction lines it was because A) the two groups are physically the same, B) the two groups share the same history, and C) the high elf race is already represented by the blood elves. Giving that playable aesthetic and thematic to the Alliance blurs the faction lines, which only harms one of the integral pillars of WoW. You may personally not care about "blurring faction lines" but me, many others and blizzard themselves do so.

You can't be reasoned with. All you care about is getting your pale skin elf on the Alliance at whatever cost to the game it may be. You have shown time and time again (along with many other "pro's" in this thread) that no reason is appropriate enough to deny alliance high elves... even if it comes at the expense of race uniqueness, faction identity, faction distinction, lore, player experience, etc... you simply don't care and find any excuse to make a wrong decision appear to be right.

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I don't care one single bit for "representation" if it all boils down to "she's there". I want to see actual lore being developed. And Alleria being involved does not guarantee the void elf lore will be expanded, considering it's much more likely that it's Alleria's own lore that will be expanded/explored in the book, by exploring her relationship and feelings toward villainous sister.

Define for me what "actual lore" is please?

So you have no argument at all?

My argument, that there's nothing high elves could do that void elves or any other playable alliance race can't do. High elves have no role to fill within the Alliance, and their absence in the 4th fourth along with the inclusion of void elves is evidence of this.

[Ielenia]

The point being that just because you define high elves as "Alliance aligned blue eyed thalassians" doesn't alter the reality that "blood elves are our high elves" as defined by the creator of the WoW universe.

"We" are not defining anything. The game and its lore are defining it. High elves are a separate group of thalassian elves, independent from the blood elves.

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Define to me what "actual lore" is please?

I think you know pretty well, but are just trying to be cute. "Actual lore", in this context, is void elf lore.

As explained, Alleria's presence does not necessarily mean that the void elf lore will be expanded. Considering the theme of the book and the overall narrative, it's much more likely that Alleria's personal lore will be explored, regarding her connections with Sylvanas. And Alleria's personal lore is not void elf lore.

My argument, that there's nothing high elves could do that void elves or any other playable alliance race can't do.

Which is, simply put, irrelevant. Because the high elves have existed since before WoW, and have been part of the Alliance since then, and yet it was the void elves that got the ticket... and have shown to be nothing special at all, despite all the promises of "stories to tell" that amounted to absolutely nothing.

If the void elves could do something the high elves cannot, or had any kind of story to tell that the high elves couldn't, it'd be fine to justify their existence. But they don't.

[Aldo Hawk]

Snop.

You have literally evaded my post directed to you where I refused to repeat the reasons why your point is ridiculous and ill informed, and provided a link to the post where I previously explained to you.

Just to answer to a post that was not directed to you, repeating the same ignorant arguments that I have already taken down.

Please, inform yourself about that phrase that doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Grythletubs]

The point being that just because you define high elves as "Alliance aligned blue eyed thalassians" doesn't alter the reality that "blood elves are our high elves" as defined by the creator of the WoW universe. Alliance aligned high elves do not define what it means to be "high elven", the blood elves do. So when Ion said they do not want to blur faction lines it was because A) the two groups are physically the same, B) the two groups share the same history, and C) the high elf race is already represented by the blood elves. Giving that playable aesthetic and thematic to the Alliance blurs the faction lines, which only harms one of the integral pillars of WoW. You may personally not care about "blurring faction lines" but me, many others and blizzard themselves do so.

You can't be reasoned with. All you care about is getting your pale skin elf on the Alliance at whatever cost to the game it may be. You have shown time and time again (along with many other "pro's" in this thread) that no reason is appropriate enough to deny alliance high elves... even if it comes at the expense of race uniqueness, faction identity, faction distinction, lore, player experience, etc... you simply don't care and find any excuse to make a wrong decision appear to be right.

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Define for me what "actual lore" is please?



My argument, that there's nothing high elves could do that void elves or any other playable alliance race can't do. High elves have no role to fill within the Alliance, and their absence in the 4th fourth along with the inclusion of void elves is evidence of this.

All this "race uniqueness faction identity" you're being excessively dramatic about would only apply if the high elves weren't alliance in the first place.
That's the main issue with your argument, you're talking as if the high elves aren't already alliance.

What YOU personally interpret the high elves' role to be is completely irrelevant.
In game and in lore shows us that they're alliance alligned.
Void elves and blood elves existing does not mean everyone has to stfu and disregard high elves.
The blood elf story will continue
The high elf story will continue

Just like no one would have cared if you started stating that DI dwarves shouldn't be playable even though they've been alliance since cata.

Just because I don't like pineaplle pizza doesn't mean I should angrily go up to strangers who like pineapple pizza and toss it in the trash.

Don't be that person.

Your "player experience" is not affected by what race someone plays, especially in the case of high elves already being part of the alliance.

[Strippling]

"We" are not defining anything. The game and its lore are defining it. High elves are a separate group of thalassian elves, independent from the blood elves.

The game defines blood elves as high elves. We also have the lead developers of WoW defining blood elves as THE high elves of the WoW universe. Just because blood elves changed their name does not mean they no longer are OUR high elves.

Heck, the blood elf heritage questline makes it crystal clear that the next chapter of the "high elves" is their becoming blood elves. One of the quests in the heritage armor questline has this (Quest: The Setting Sun):

Remember the Sunwell. We ride into battle with those words for a reason. We lost so much that day... I lost so much that day. Shine the lantern on the southern side of the island, where the Dead Scar meets the sea. There you will see how the fall of the Sunwell began. And with it, the last act of the High Elves.

This INGAME questline is in 100% agreement with Chris Metzen's statement "blood elves are our high elves". The quest doesn't say "the last act of the blood elves" or "the last act of a group of high elves, but the real high elves remain". No, it clearly explains to us how blood elves are our high elves in the WoW universe. So, I repeat... Blizzard both in game and out (lead developer comments) define blood elves as the continuation of the high elves. The small diluted group of alliance aligned "high elves" we see in game do not represent what it means to be a high elf in the WoW universe. No, they are a fractured group with no real purpose or direction and are nothing but a political deviation to the actual high elf group in WoW... the blood elves... the group of high elves that are playable, that are defined as "our high elves", that are the next chapter of the high elf story.

So when I repeat the statement "blood elves are our high elves" it's not to be "argumentative for the sake of it", it's to highlight the fact that high elves are indeed playable and are available on the Horde. Making a fractured group of them playable on the Alliance would dilute from this unique experience offered to the Horde faction (just as humans will never be playable on the Horde). Void elves were given as a compromise. And because of the status of alliance aligned high elves, their presence is designated to NPCs which in all fairness is fitting to remain that way,

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All this "race uniqueness faction identity" you're being excessively dramatic about would only apply if the high elves weren't alliance in the first place.
That's the main issue with your argument, you're talking as if the high elves aren't already alliance.

What YOU personally interpret the high elves' role to be is completely irrelevant.
In game and in lore shows us that they're alliance alligned.
Void elves and blood elves existing does not mean everyone has to stfu and disregard high elves.
The blood elf story will continue
The high elf story will continue

Just like no one would have cared if you started stating that DI dwarves shouldn't be playable even though they've been alliance since cata.

Just because I don't like pineaplle pizza doesn't mean I should angrily go up to strangers who like pineapple pizza and toss it in the trash.

Don't be that person.

Your "player experience" is not affected by what race someone plays, especially in the case of high elves already being part of the alliance.

Read my above reply. My definition of high elves is what the game tells us and what the lead developers have told us. Blood elves are the continuation of the high elves. The blood elf heritage questline confirms this. The high elf story is the blood elf story, so you're a bit confused on that part.

My WoW experience would be affected if a key pillar of the game (faction distinction) was reduced to meaningless. Just because you don't care what repercussions there could be doesn't mean others shouldn't or that "everything would be fine". Thankfully Blizzard are not as naive as that.

[Syegfryed]

The game defines blood elves as high elves. We also have the lead developers of WoW defining blood elves as THE high elves of the WoW universe. Just because blood elves changed their name does not mean they no longer are OUR high elves.

People often ignore or forget that High elf is a race and "Blood elf" is just a name of the group of high elves, they think or believe they changed race, and the "high elf" epithet belongs and is only applied to the elves who didn't change name and are aliance aligned.. Hence for then, only the alliance aligned are high elves, who is disingenuous and wrong

[Aldefard Aelfwine]

My WoW experience would be affected if a key pillar of the game (faction distinction) was reduced to meaningless. Just because you don't care what repercussions there could be doesn't mean others shouldn't or that "everything would be fine". Thankfully Blizzard are not as naive as that.

The difference between the factions was already touched on two times:

1st - in BC when they gave paladins to the Horde and shamans to the Alliance.

2nd - in MoP when both factions were given identical pandarens.

Why do you ignore these points? They have already had a greater impact on the identity of the factions than the potential addition of high elves.

High elves and blood elves could freely coexist in different factions while sharing a common history as the pandarens Tushui and huojin, night elves and nightborne.

[Ielenia]

The game defines blood elves as high elves.

This is false. It's actually objectively false, and blatantly obvious to anyone who checks the in-game:
• "High elf" and "blood elf" are separate entities.
• "High elf" characters are Alliance-aligned, and hostile toward "blood elf" characters, and vice-versa.
• "High elf" faction is separate and independent from the "blood elf" faction.
• "High elf" faction does not recognize the "blood elf" leadership, and vice-versa.
• "High elf" characters do not like to be called "blood elf", and vice-versa.

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People often ignore or forget that High elf is a race and "Blood elf" is just a name of the group of high elves

And "people often ignore or forget" that high elf is also a name of a group of elves in the game.

[Syegfryed]

And "people often ignore or forget" that high elf is also a name of a group of elves in the game.

no one forget that, i even said on my comment, but this is not an "official group name" is just the race name they keep using to refer to themselves, not unique, since it clashes with the actual definition of the race, thats why people keep playing with semantics to validate arbitrary saying what is a high elf and what is not, even going against actual lore and dev's words

The high elf race is playable, under the name of blood elves, and are horde, Thats why is totally correct and canon to say "high elves are already playable" because they are, the race is.

The are individuals of the high elf race within the alliance, a group, not a race, who are not playable

[Aldefard Aelfwine]

The are individuals of the high elf race within the alliance, a group, not a race, who are not playable

Void elves are also a group, not a completely separate race, and they are playable. And this fact refutes your statement.

In that case, why can't a group of high elves loyal to the Alliance be playable?

[Obelisk Kai]

What available customization a race releases with is no longer set in stone: look to Shadowlands increased customizations for this. Again, it doesn't need confirmation that they will do the same to Allied Races, they will.

They were already being questioned about it when they revealed the customizations for non-AR. Their answers were "only non-AR at this time" and not "No the AR have a specific vision we want to keep therefore their aesthetics will not be as diverse as what's coming for non-AR in Shadowlands."

You're essentially trying to capitalize on them not prioritizing AR yet and assuming they will not touch AR ever when they've already answered questions that do not reach one to that conclusion. You're basically going, "the new level cap is going 60 and the developers have not shown any signs of increasing the cap further that's why it's going to be 60 in Shadowlands" completely ignoring patterns that they've established in the past simply because "there is no sign of it yet."

Which is not a response to my statement. You are citing Alleria as a precedent, whereas I am pointing Alleria's unique abilities have unique reasonings. No other Void Elf came by their power by absorbing the heart of a dark naaru, all of the rest came by their power by being blasted by tremendous amounts of void energy. I should also point that not only is Alleria unique in her ability to suppress her void form, but that her void form itself is far more pronounced than that of other Void Elves who seem to occupy a middle of ground of a permanent, not so extreme void state.

Nor have I ever said they aren't going to expand AR customization, everyone can see that will happen eventually and it is a lie to suggest I said otherwise. What I have said is your pet goal for Void Elves, them to be granted high elf like customizations, is highly unlikely and that Alleria is not a precedent given her unique status.

When I say most I mean from player's POV. Players are not against getting increased customization. The proof lies in nobody in the playerbase ever telling Blizzard to "stop adding more customization please, this does not fit with previously established lore." Everyone has been asking for more customizations for a very long time, and Allied Races have their own section of fans that want more customizations as well. Lore is not priority to these people.

Lore however is an important consideration and minimising it's importance leads to suggestions that simply aren't going to happen because they undermine the integrity of the story, such as Void Elf Paladins (a complete contradiction in terms). Lorewise, playable void elves are the subjects of an immense amount of void energy which causes their physiology to shift towards the ethereal, a process which is deliberately interrupted middway. The reward is a connection to the void, the price is an altered physiology and the whispers of the Void Lords. Blizzard is going to add new customizations where they make sense and where they don't contradict established lore, there are plentiful ways to explain all the new options players are about to get. But some of what is desired IS at odds with the lore and as such, won't happen. Should blue eyes for Blood Elves not happen it will be because the lore will be solidified that the new sunwell tends towards holy rather than arcane.

Look at what I said above, just because it hasn't been "confirmed" does not mean there's not a body of precedent set from the past. Every increased customization coming to non-AR races was a "wishlist" before it happened, and a lot of those customizations "flies in the face of why they created X race as they did in the first place."

Darkspears are an easy example, no longer will they have to be forced to be a blue troll for skin colors, it's being as drastic as tan/brown/pale. No one's going around saying "it doesn't make sense that Darkspear Trolls are getting different non-blue skin tones as that flies in the face of why they created Darkspear trolls in the first place."

Except your pet request, high elf like skin tones for Void Elves, grates against the reason Void Elves were created in the first place, providing a thalassian elf option to the Alliance with aesthetic and thematic distance with the already playable Blood Elves, whom have been acknowledged as the high elves of the franchise. It would be a strange scenario where, after going to the bother of differentiating Void Elves and Blood Elves, they then turn around and obliterate those differences wouldn't it?
Particularly as the Blood Elf skin tones range is set to expand as well, from fair skin tones to the long wishes for 'dark' skintones encompassed within the human skintone range. Which of these would Void Elves get? Just the fairest skin tones? Or all the options available to Blood Elves? All the options available to Blood Elves AND their own unique skin tones? One could argue that gives Void Elves far more options than they should have, an almost unfair amount. And of course, players being what players are, they are likely to gravitate to human range skin tones rather than the unique, void flavoured tones Void Elves already have which are evocative of their void theme. Choice is good, but if it obliterates the differences with another option AND moves the majority of people playing that race away from the aesthetic Blizzard chose for that race?

Yeah, I feel pretty good with my stance on this. It's possible. Exceptionally unlikely, but possible. When advanced customization comes to Void Elves, Blizzard would be wise to lean into the fantasy they represent and allow Void Elves to be Void Elves rather than ersatz high elves. There exists a perfectly good playable high elf option in game for anyone who enjoys that fantasy and it would be unfair to ruin Void Elves and what they represent in an attempt to appropriate that.

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I don't care one single bit for "representation" if it all boils down to "she's there". I want to see actual lore being developed. And Alleria being involved does not guarantee the void elf lore will be expanded, considering it's much more likely that it's Alleria's own lore that will be expanded/explored in the book, by exploring her relationship and feelings toward her villainous sister.

Good to see everything involving Veressa in 8.2.5 can now be ignored. Some people were suggesting that her non speaking role amounted to high elf and silver covenant representation, but as you can see here from your own reasoning, it was no such thing.

However, Alleria IS the Void Elf racial leader, the Void Elves ARE a recognised and valued part of the Alliance who are at the top table. As such, if she makes even a single comment regarding the void elves, say their situation post BFA, how the Alliance is treating them, maybe a resolution to the 'can they turn other elves into void elves' question that is in black and white, then that would count as Void Elf lore no matter your resistance.

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This is false. It's actually objectively false, and blatantly obvious to anyone who checks the in-game:
• "High elf" and "blood elf" are separate entities.
• "High elf" characters are Alliance-aligned, and hostile toward "blood elf" characters, and vice-versa.
• "High elf" faction is separate and independent from the "blood elf" faction.
• "High elf" faction does not recognize the "blood elf" leadership, and vice-versa.
• "High elf" characters do not like to be called "blood elf", and vice-versa.

During https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2_MydRdrIw you can see the Alliance leadership assembled and they are all there, Anduin (Humans), Mekktorque and Erazmin (Gnomes of both kinds), Turalyon and Alleria (Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves), Tyrande (Night Elves), the council of the three hammers (all Dwarf kind), Genn (for Gilneas), Jaina (for Kul Tiras) and Velen (for the Draenei). Even Aysa is there for the Alliance Pandaren. No Veressa though. No high elven exiles at all. There are more BLOOD ELVES in that ending cinematic than there are representatives of what you continue to insist (despite being repeatedly told that they aren't by the developers) are an important alliance race.

The Blood Elves are not a faction. The Blood Elves are not a separate 'entity'. They ARE Quel'thalas. They ARE the nation of the thalassian elves. Those who classify themselves as high elves are a splinter group from their nation. There is no equivalence between a splinter group of exiles and the actual country. It would be like saying refugees who fled opression are equal in influence to their government. That is nonsensical.

Blood Elves = the High Elf people.
High Elven exiles are a tiny group of exiles whom history has left behind and they are making a point persisting in calling themselves high elves, a point they didn't have to make before the third war. That the name they cling to now makes that point emphasises how the name itself has changed.

And "people often ignore or forget" that high elf is also a name of a group of elves in the game.

As has been explained, high elves used to refer to every thalassian elf. Following the scourge invasion, the name of the race was changed to Blood Elf. Every Blood Elf alive today called themselves a high elf not so long ago. High Elf therefore changed from an agnostic term that denoted every member of the biological group to a politicised term employed by a few renegades upset with the new order. This does not mean Blood Elves stopped being high elves, merely that they redefined what a high elf was i.e. a blood elf. Anyone who calls themselves a high elf is making a political point they did not have to twenty years ago.

A tiny faction of malcontents refuse to get with the program, but their existence doesn't change the fundamental facts. Blood Elves are high elves. The High Elves are now the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are playable, and so high elves are playable. Politics is not enough.

[Syegfryed]

Void elves are also a group, not a completely separate race, and they are playable. And this fact refutes your statement.

they are indeed a different, at least a subrace thats why they are an "allied race", they are changed by the void, they are no longer HE, they are a completely separated group with totally different thematic and visual all together, thats why they can go to the other faction, and thats why it don't refute my statement at all.

In that case, why can't a group of high elves loyal to the Alliance be playable?

Because Their race is already playable, they are entirely identical psychically and thematically to the horde ones

[Aldefard Aelfwine]

Because Their race is already playable, they are entirely identical psychically and thematically to the horde ones

But pandarens, unlike blood elves and high elves, have no external differences at all. And they... playable. How do you explain this?

[Obelisk Kai]

But pandarens, unlike blood elves and high elves, have no external differences at all. And they... playable. How do you explain this?

Easy, it was an experiment they decided to try to see if it worked. Here's the rub though, they are pretty clear that it didn't work. Oh sure, Pandaren themselves are a fine race, but the cost to faction diversity by making them neutral was simply too great. And Pandaren had everything going for them, a race both sides wanted but neither had meaning they would join both sides at the same time, a story emphasising balance and their neutrality. Still wasn't worth it. They've not a done neutral race since. They likely never will again as the real benefits of making a neutral race, only a single pair of levelling zones and just two models to make rather than four zones and four models, is obviated by Allied races allowing model reuse and skipping the first levelling zones entirely.

Pandaren neutrality is not a precedent. It was a mistake. And the thing about mistakes is that once you make it, you can avoid making that same mistake a second time.