Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ardenaso]

I guess the way to make High Elves distinct is to make the playable character be a young adult High Elf, just as how Kul Tirans were made fat to be distinct with Stormwindians

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Not disagreeing with the stance that High Elves make sense as a playable race on the Alliance. Just wanted to point out that no, High Elves have not always been a part of the Alliance.

Their leadership defected during the third war because of the atrocities of Garithos and explicitly declared they were no longer a part of the Alliance, this can all be seen as part of the campaign in WC3: TFT. Those that are friendly to the Alliance now are those that were in Dalaran as part of the Silver Covenant the whole time and weren't their to witness those things. The ones that left Silvermoon because they didn't agree with the renaming of their race to Blood Elves likely wouldn't go back to the Alliance after the shit they went through, they're just splinter groups living out their lives away from all this faction war mess.

IF they were to ever allow Alliance aligned High Elves a playable race, lore wise, they would have to be from the Silver Covenant to make much sense in the lore. But I would support that, because it DOES make sense.

plus those at the Kalimdor Brigade, Draenor Expedition, and the Highvale.

[Frenchvince]

Okay, thank you for the tweet you provided.Now I'm ready to believe that the blizzard think the pandarens are some kind of mistake.

But also in response, I will say that the employees of Blizzard (in particular Alex Afrasiabi) do not exclude that the appearance of high elves can be added for void elves. He said this to the lost Codex YouTube channel during BlizzCon 2018.

Q: Any future customisation coming to void elves to bring them closer to the high elf fantasy?

Response Alex Afrasiabi: Yes there's always a chance, don't give up hope, but just be respectful and you make your post.


What do you think about it?

Well, I hope that "this chance" will be available in shadowlands! That's good, since there will be new customization options.

[Obelisk Kai]

Okay, thank you for the tweet you provided.Now I'm ready to believe that the blizzard think the pandarens are some kind of mistake.

But also in response, I will say that the employees of Blizzard (in particular Alex Afrasiabi) do not exclude that the appearance of high elves can be added for void elves. He said this to the lost Codex YouTube channel during BlizzCon 2018.

Q: Any future customisation coming to void elves to bring them closer to the high elf fantasy?

Response Alex Afrasiabi: Yes there's always a chance, don't give up hope, but just be respectful and you make your post.


What do you think about it?

It's been debated to death here already.

The only reason I give credence to the possibility of high elf like skins on Void Elves is because he said here it was possible. Were it not for that I would entirely discount it given that the entire reason they gave Void Elves blue skins was to visually differentiate them from blood/high elves and to go back on that would seem ungodly stupid.

Frankly the fact he pivoted to forum behaviour so quickly suggests to me that what the devs know of the high elf request is that it's a complete dumpster fire of a topic and that what they know of threads seems to be that they quickly devolve into never ending flame wars and that, to put it mildly, it was a request for decorum and for pro high elfers to nicely phrase their requests so that their CMs can great break.

For me, the most telling thing is that before they considered the sub-race system fully, Ion Hazzikostas was the one who off handedly suggested high elves as a race they could add in that system. Once that system came out, you had Void Elves. In other words, once they sat down and thought things through, they realised they couldn't add a duplicate of an existing race to the game. Similarly, when they sit down and think through expanding Void Elf customization, I belive the same thought processes that led them to create Void Elves in the first place will ensure they don't turn Void Elves into ersatz high elves...or they'll result in some monkey paw result so you'd wished you never asked.

[Frenchvince]

It's been debated to death here already.

The only reason I give credence to the possibility of high elf like skins on Void Elves is because he said here it was possible. Were it not for that I would entirely discount it given that the entire reason they gave Void Elves blue skins was to visually differentiate them from blood/high elves and to go back on that would seem ungodly stupid.

Frankly the fact he pivoted to forum behaviour so quickly suggests to me that what the devs know of the high elf request is that it's a complete dumpster fire of a topic and that what they know of threads seems to be that they quickly devolve into never ending flame wars and that, to put it mildly, it was a request for decorum and for pro high elfers to nicely phrase their requests so that their CMs can great break.

For me, the most telling thing is that before they considered the sub-race system fully, Ion Hazzikostas was the one who off handedly suggested high elves as a race they could add in that system. Once that system came out, you had Void Elves. In other words, once they sat down and thought things through, they realised they couldn't add a duplicate of an existing race to the game. Similarly, when they sit down and think through expanding Void Elf customization, I belive the same thought processes that led them to create Void Elves in the first place will ensure they don't turn Void Elves into ersatz high elves...or they'll result in some monkey paw result so you'd wished you never asked.

The second reason is simply to avoid having two races of Thalassian elves in the alliance so as not to make the horde cry ...

So giving the high-elf option in customizing the void elves is a good solution for everyone after all.

[Aldo Hawk]

im saying is, just because they are the same race, they don't need to be the same thing.

the race or specie in biology is the same, yes, but there are different subraces/subspecies or breeds within the same specie/race, sometimes those breeds and species/subraces are very different from each other.

you could find lizards of the same specie totally different in color, marks patterns and even texture or size, those would be called subspecies, but they are the same and could breed between then.

Same thing with Dogs, a lot of dogs are totally different from each other, like a pitbull and a chihuahua or other examples, they are the same specie, but NOT the same thing, hence, not the same breed.

This example applies to the kul'tiran case, Kul'tirans humans and other humans are the same race, but not the same thing, they are different breeds of the same race, a normal human cannot became a kul'tiran with push-ups, a kul'tiran cannot become a human with a diet, those things are from birth, they being the same race they can breed with themselves.

thats why using they as a factor in their pro agenda, like they are the same thing is completely bananas.

Even more when we have the unconfirmed theory of those kul'tirans having drust blood, since they joined kul'tirans society, that would explain their half-giant size and strength and why just those humans can be druids and hear the call of the drust of old, but, the pro-side like to shut down this because it would hurt their narrative, its only permitted when help their side.

Kul'tiran humans are humans pal, don't matter how much you want to sprinkle it

[Katchii]

plus those at the Kalimdor Brigade, Draenor Expedition, and the Highvale.

The Kalimdor brigade was essentially annihilated since the vast majority of it's members ended up settling in Theramore Isle, which was obliterated by the mana bomb. There might be surviving High Elves, but they wouldn't be a population you could feasibly create a playable race from as they were basically non-combatants to begin with.

The Draenor Expedition is presumed annihilated or captured by the Legion, or otherwise unknown, as they used a portal to escape Draenor and were caught by the Legion when they did so and haven't been heard from since aside from Turalyon and Alleria.

Highvale, Quel'danil Lodge, is true but are mostly removed from the faction conflict and aren't really "Alliance forces" that would be drawn from in war and are just an Alliance aligned settlement in the Hinterlands.

You're correct, these three groups would still be/ are friendly to the Alliance. I was only intending on mentioning a group that is friendly to the Alliance and also significant enough to plausibly be used as a source for a playable race. The three groups listed don't really fit that criteria.

[FlubberPuddy]

The second reason is simply to avoid having two races of Thalassian elves in the alliance so as not to make the horde cry ...

So giving the high-elf option in customizing the void elves is a good solution for everyone after all.

They've also stated that Allied Races are not the sub-race system, which we have evidence for as we see Kul Tirans, Zandalari, Nightborne, and Vulpera as examples of AR that are not a "sub-race" to any existing race for which faction they're on.

Consequentially, the increased customizations coming in Shadowlands can be considered "sub-races" as that's what the conventionally accepted definition of sub-races was within the playerbase: extra customization to existing races so that one can play their "wildhammer dwarf" for instance within the Dwarf race.

Thus, given that we're getting an actual sub-race system now, we may see Void Elves receiving those High Elf options once Allied Races get their turn in receiving increased customization options.

[Nerovar]

Maybe they should just give Void Elves an option to purge their void corruption (maybe attach it to a small quest idk) to switch their appearance to resemble High Elves again. That way they wouldn't have to make a "new race" and could satisfy the players who want to play regular Alliance High Elves.

[Strippling]

But they are high elves. They identify as such, and don't identify as blood elves.

If the Lorthermar all of a sudden decreed that blood elves will now call themselves high elves again your argument would fall flat on its face.

Blood elves did not become a new race when they changed their name. It was a simple decree in honor of their fallen. They never stopped being our high elves. Should they decree, they could rename themselves to high elves again.

[FossilFree]

Maybe they should just give Void Elves an option to purge their void corruption (maybe attach it to a small quest idk) to switch their appearance to resemble High Elves again. That way they wouldn't have to make a "new race" and could satisfy the players who want to play regular Alliance High Elves.

Or they could even make it an "ascended" Void Elf type of deal, where they learn how to control their own void corruption levels like Alleria. But they would still be beneath her in control, as they wouldn't be able to enter Entropic Embrace on demand like she can (since it would happen randomly still).

[Strippling]

So giving the high-elf option in customizing the void elves is a good solution for everyone after all.

That would A) make the void elves less "voidy", a theme of which the race is based on, and B) would only make them more like blood elves visually... which defeats the purpose of making void elves visually different in the first place.

[FlubberPuddy]

Or they could even make it an "ascended" Void Elf type of deal, where they learn how to control their own void corruption levels like Alleria. But they would still be beneath her in control, as they wouldn't be able to enter Entropic Embrace on demand like she can (since it would happen randomly still).

That's a pretty cool lore explanation for it.

[Obelisk Kai]

That would A) make the void elves less "voidy", a theme of which the race is based on, and B) would only make them more like blood elves visually... which defeats the purpose of making void elves visually different in the first place.

Which is the conclusion I suspect the developers will rapidly arrive at once they sit down and try and hash out what new Void Elf customization will look like. Many of them may have deja vu in fact as they recall why they went with Void Elves over the exiles in the first place.

[Ielenia]

If the Lorthermar all of a sudden decreed that blood elves will now call themselves high elves again your argument would fall flat on its face.

IF that happens. It hasn't happened, and doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon. Until then, that's a meaningless statement to make, that makes it sounds like you're trying to have the last word.

[Aldo Hawk]

If the Lorthermar all of a sudden decreed that blood elves will now call themselves high elves again your argument would fall flat on its face.

Blood elves did not become a new race when they changed their name. It was a simple decree in honor of their fallen. They never stopped being our high elves. Should they decree, they could rename themselves to high elves again.

What if, what if not...



What if they announce High elves next expansion's patch.

What if, what the fuck if.

Please stay on point instead of staying on mediocre antagonism

[Strippling]

IF that happens. It hasn't happened, and doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon. Until then, that's a meaningless statement to make, that makes it sounds like you're trying to have the last word.

You have constantly harped on that high elves are not playable because there is no race named "high elf" in the character creation screen. If blood elves were simply to decree that they will now call themselves high elves again, then there would be a "high elf" named race in the character selection screen all of a sudden...yet nothing would have changed about the race except their new name, they'd still be the same elves. So, when the game and the game directors define blood elves as OUR high elves, its a clear message that the high elf race is not defined by some small fractured group on the alliance but by the main high elven society who are allied with the Horde.

Of course, this may be too nuanced for you to comprehend. Likewise for Aldo.

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Which is the conclusion I suspect the developers will rapidly arrive at once they sit down and try and hash out what new Void Elf customization will look like. Many of them may have deja vu in fact as they recall why they went with Void Elves over the exiles in the first place.

Exactly. De-voiding void elves will only make them more like blood elves. Blizzard are highly unlikely to do that, given they made them different in the first place.

[FlubberPuddy]

Exactly. De-voiding void elves will only make them more like blood elves. Blizzard are highly unlikely to do that, given they made them different in the first place.

Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.

[Ielenia]

You have constantly harped on that high elves are not playable because there is no race named "high elf" in the character creation screen. If blood elves were simply to decree that they will now call themselves high elves again, then there would be a "high elf" named race in the character selection screen all of a sudden...yet nothing would have changed about the race except their new name, they'd still be the same elves. So, when the game and the game directors define blood elves as OUR high elves, its a clear message that the high elf race is not defined by some small fractured group on the alliance but by the main high elven society who are allied with the Horde.

And it doesn't matter. Because nothing would change. The pro-high-elf players would still want to play as the high elf faction already existing within the Alliance, even if Blizzard decided to rename the blood elves "high elves". And there would still have a faction of high elves that is part of the Alliance. At worst, the pro-high-elf players would start calling them 'Silver Covenant' high elves.

Of course, this may be too nuanced for you to comprehend. Likewise for Aldo.

And, also of course, civil conversation may be too hard for you, if you must resort to veiled insults.

[Strippling]

Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.

One glaring issue is that all of the above race customizations coming (trolls, dwarfs, etc...) don't make them look any closer to other races, yet alone looking more similar to races on the opposite faction. Giving "high elf" customizations to void elves would essentially make them closer to a blood elf. That's a big issue, and the main reason why it'd be highly unlikely that they ever do so.

Apples to oranges.

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And it doesn't matter. Because nothing would change. The pro-high-elf players would still want to play as the high elf faction already existing within the Alliance, even if Blizzard decided to rename the blood elves "high elves". And there would still have a faction of high elves that is part of the Alliance. At worst, the pro-high-elf players would start calling them 'Silver Covenant' high elves.

If blood elves decreed that they're adopting the name "high elves" again, would you still say that high elves aren't playable? Or would you say that Alliance aligned high elves aren't playable?

Remember, you are the one who disputes the statement made by Chris Metzen "blood elves ARE our high elves". You are the one who has stated multiple times "blood elves aren't high elves". Have a read of my above question again.

And, also of course, civil conversation may be too hard for you, if you must resort to veiled insults.

Both you and Aldo have resorted to veiled insults toward me and Obelisk several times over the last few pages. Don't see me reporting your posts, unlike you.

[Obelisk Kai]

Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.

Sometimes it seems as if the entire pro High Elf argument is predicated on drawing as many false equivalencies as possible, taking superficial similarities and disregarding the depths and nuance of each comparison, just to have something to argue with. That it falls apart under even the mildest interrogation is neither here or there, as the dismantling of the point and the demonstration as to why it is a false equivalence is simply ignored and the point restated in future. Having said that, the point still deserves to be interrogated and dismantled.

You mention Trolls, drawing allusion to the new sand troll skin tones. You mention Dwarves, referring to the new Wildhammer Dwarf options they are receiving. You then define the Void Elf demand for high elf like skin tones within the same context and say that as it is reasonable these groups are getting these options, it is reasonable for Void Elves to get the skin tones they are requesting. This is the heart of your false equivalence because while the demand for high elf like skin tones on Void Elves does exist (though I would classify the use of the word unanimous as hyperbole)it is not akin to the other requests you list.

Because what Trolls and Dwarves are getting are not currently available options. There is no Sand Troll race or Sand Troll playerbase who will object to the expansion of Troll customisation to encompass them. There are no Wildhammer Dwarf players who can object to Bronzebeard Dwarves getting access to their tattoos. These races are expanding into fresh territory as a result, entirely unclaimed. That is not what some Void Elf players are asking for.

Void Elves, lest we forget, were conceived and implemented as a compromise on this matter, to give Alliance players access to the model and access to thalassian elves but without the themes and aesthetic that defines the core Horde race that is the Blood Elves. Several Allied races were implemented with their sole meaningful aesthetic difference being their unique skin tone range. The Void Elf skin tone range is the entire point, it's their critical aesthetic difference and it is reflective of their void theme.

In practical terms, how would it work? What is a 'high elf skintone' anyway. We know what it is now, it's the range of skin tones from fair skins to flushed skins that Blood Elves. But Blood Elves are going first when it comes to increased character customization and I believe it was confirmed Blood Elves will be getting a few more skin tones to encompass the entire Human skin tone palette, which is something all races whose tones are from the human range will be getting. At the moment Blood Elves have ten skin tone options. That could easily increase to sixteen or seventeen as a result of these changes? Will Void Elves get access to all of these tones? That means Void Elves will have access to their unique, appropriate aesthetics as well as the Blood Elf aesthetic. That doesn't strike me as fair, to give one race access to the aesthetic of another race and vastly more options than the other race.

Perhaps then Void Elves shouldn't have access to the sixteen or seventeen Blood Elf skin tone options. Then which ones do you pick? Do you only give Void Elves the fair skin tones which are clearly at the heart of this desire? And if you would be satisfied with only a few blood elf tones, would the Void Elf community be satisfied with only the new darker skin tones from the human range Blood Elves are going to get instead of the fair ones? It gets somewhat dicey the deeper you explore this rabbit hole doesn't it?

Might be safest then to just give the Void Elves access to all Blood Elf skin tones then. You would render the actual void elf skin tones a minority and players being players, they would gravitate away from the aesthetic that actually represents the Void Elves towards looking, well, like Blood Elves. That would obliterate the aesthetic basis for Void Elves as a distinct grouping. It would ruin their fantasy because instead of Void Elves you'd have ersatz blood elves.

I can't imagine discussing these problems with any other race of course, because no other race seeks to intrude into the aesthetic and thematic space of another so wantonly. Sand Trolls, Wildhammer Dwarves, false equivalences each. Interrogate your supposedly 'equivalent' Void Elf request and you find problem after problem, a gigantic can of worms I simply can't believe they would open.

An actual equivalence would be Dark Iron Dwarf players asking for Bronzebeard skin tones, something which isn't happening because anyone who made that suggestion would be told to go and play an ordinary Dwarf. The reason this request gets any kind of oxygen at all is because the Blood Elves, the actual playable traditional high elves, happen to be on the other side of the faction wall. The faction wall they went out of their way to publicly defend at Blizzcon.

Whatever customization Void Elves end up getting when allied races get their pass, I really doubt it's going to be what you want. At best, they'll lean into the Void Elf fantasy and double down on the void corruption angle rather than pulling back. At worst, they'll give you a monkey paw result such as the fair skin tone elves mottle dwith void energy mockups that we've seen posted a few times. But I would be very surprised if they allowed Void Elves to look like Blood Elves given the entire reason Void Elves exist as they do was so that they didn't have to give you high elves. And if you are predicating your faith that they will do so solely because you are asking it, then need i remind you that high elves were asked for as a sub-race for years and you didn't get it and for the same reason others (such as those seeking Mag'har) got what they wanted.

That the option you want is currently available, it just happens to be on the other faction.

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Exactly. De-voiding void elves will only make them more like blood elves. Blizzard are highly unlikely to do that, given they made them different in the first place.

As I detailed above, to simply sit and think about how it could be implemented leads to conclusion they are highly unlikely to do so for a multitude of reasons.