1. #14701
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    But pandarens, unlike blood elves and high elves, have no external differences at all. And they... playable. How do you explain this?
    Easy, it was an experiment they decided to try to see if it worked. Here's the rub though, they are pretty clear that it didn't work. Oh sure, Pandaren themselves are a fine race, but the cost to faction diversity by making them neutral was simply too great. And Pandaren had everything going for them, a race both sides wanted but neither had meaning they would join both sides at the same time, a story emphasising balance and their neutrality. Still wasn't worth it. They've not a done neutral race since. They likely never will again as the real benefits of making a neutral race, only a single pair of levelling zones and just two models to make rather than four zones and four models, is obviated by Allied races allowing model reuse and skipping the first levelling zones entirely.

    Pandaren neutrality is not a precedent. It was a mistake. And the thing about mistakes is that once you make it, you can avoid making that same mistake a second time.

  2. #14702
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    no one forget that, i even said on my comment, but this is not an "official group name" is just the race name they keep using to refer to themselves
    But it is their "official name".

    The are individuals of the high elf race within the alliance, a group, not a race, who are not playable
    All "playable races" are "a group, not a race", hence why that denomination is meaningless. "Human" is not a race, but a group of the human race. "Troll" is not a race, but a group of the troll race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    During https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2_MydRdrIw you can see the Alliance leadership assembled and they are all there, Anduin (Humans), Mekktorque and Erazmin (Gnomes of both kinds), Turalyon and Alleria (Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves), Tyrande (Night Elves), the council of the three hammers (all Dwarf kind), Genn (for Gilneas), Jaina (for Kul Tiras) and Velen (for the Draenei). Even Aysa is there for the Alliance Pandaren. No Veressa though. No high elven exiles at all. There are more BLOOD ELVES in that ending cinematic than there are representatives of what you continue to insist (despite being repeatedly told that they aren't by the developers) are an important alliance race.
    Funny. I don't see the Jinyu or Ankoan there. Perhaps the only ones present in that cinematic are only the representatives of the currently playable races?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  3. #14703
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it is their "official name".
    its the name of their race, yes, but "official name of the group"? hardly, since they are not a official faction, neither a conjunct group with a common goal or leader, the ones in dalaran are silver covenant by example

    All "playable races" are "a group, not a race"
    all playable races are a race, you pick a race and play with it, of course the race have to come from somewhere, but this don't mean they are not a race

    hence why that denomination is meaningless. "Human" is not a race, but a group of the human race. "Troll" is not a race, but a group of the troll race.
    Meaningless to who? who said that? your race is human, you play one, troll is a race you play one, they all come from somewhere.

    Thats why you don't see nothing about "lordearon humans allied race" " Stromgarde Humans allied race" or "dalaran humans allied race" and obviously they will not happen, since they are the same and humans are already playable.

    the other human and the other troll playable now are subraces, they are different(thematically and physically), the high elves in the alliance are not a subrace they are the same
    Funny. I don't see the Jinyu or Ankoan there. Perhaps the only ones present in that cinematic are only the representatives of the currently playable races?
    or perhaps the only ones present are only the core races representatives?

    Jinyu and ankoan fall to the same boat of firbolg and HE, minor races not core ones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    But pandarens, unlike blood elves and high elves, have no external differences at all. And they... playable. How do you explain this?
    Taking you just have 6 posts and a December account im gonna bet you are very familiarized with the subject and know very well how to explain this

  4. #14704
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    IG Blood elves : we no longer are high elves
    IG High elves : we aren't blood elves

    IRL anti helf on MMO-CHAMPION: BUT BLOOD ELVES ARE HIGH ELVES PLS

    That's hilarious
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  5. #14705
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    IG Blood elves : we no longer are high elves
    IG High elves : we aren't blood elves

    IRL anti helf on MMO-CHAMPION: BUT BLOOD ELVES ARE HIGH ELVES PLS

    That's hilarious
    its not like we have meta knowledge that fictional characters don't posses , its a debate they are not awere off

    Its not like someone change race just by changing name, their nomenclature is not a issue in the subject just in the fictional world

  6. #14706
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    People often ignore or forget that High elf is a race and "Blood elf" is just a name of the group of high elves, they think or believe they changed race, and the "high elf" epithet belongs and is only applied to the elves who didn't change name and are aliance aligned.. Hence for then, only the alliance aligned are high elves, who is disingenuous and wrong
    That's a cute strawman you did there.

    However, you seem to confuse when someone refers to race as a gameplay term and race as different races.

    No dude, no one actually believes in their internal being that High elves are a completely different epistemologically-wise race from Blood elves.

    But on gameplay terms (thing that you seem very confused with) they would be, since they would be another race choice, do you understand that?

  7. #14707
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    That's a cute strawman you did there.

    However, you seem to confuse when someone refers to race as a gameplay term and race as different races.
    i don't, they are the same race, proved many times already, even the other pro-elves recognize that and try to work around it

    No dude, no one actually believes in their internal being that High elves are a completely different epistemologically-wise race from Blood elves.

    But on gameplay terms (thing that you seem very confused with) they would be, since they would be another race choice, do you understand that?
    in gameplay terms they are the same race still, don't know where you are getting they aren't

    and if i remember right, you said you would stop quoting and answering me, what happened with that?

  8. #14708
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The game defines blood elves as high elves. We also have the lead developers of WoW defining blood elves as THE high elves of the WoW universe. Just because blood elves changed their name does not mean they no longer are OUR high elves.
    You have actively ignored why this doesn't make sense.

    Well, for anyone else who is willing to open their minds, I'm gonna give a direct reasoning for why this doesn't make sense:

    'Blood elves are our High elves' was a phrase uttered by Chris Metzen at an interview made soon after the announcing of The Burning Crusade. This phrase was directed at the new gameplay addition in the form of a new race for players to choose, and it was said in reference to OTHER FANTASY UNIVERSES, SINCE 'HIGH ELF' IS A COMMON RACE IN MANY FANTASY UNIVERSES (Fucking obviously).

    So, why is the way Strippling and others put it, wrong? Because Blood elves, and High elves, aren't the same people as in-lore, and the context of the phrasing was around a time where no single High Elf-like option existed for players to choose from while a new one have been recently announced.

    That phrase was never said in reference to the High elves that still call themselves High elves in the Warcraft lore, but in reference to the High elves that call themselves Blood elves in the warcraft universe as a brand new playable option.

    Guess what: High elves are also their High elves. Since High elves are, DUH, HIGH ELVES.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i don't, they are the same race, proved many times already, even the other pro-elves recognize that and try to work around it
    Please read again.
    in gameplay terms they are the same race still, don't know where you are getting they aren't
    Have you READ what I WROTE?

    But on gameplay terms (thing that you seem very confused with) they would be, since they would be another race choice, do you understand that?
    It's literally more than 2/3 of the phrase, it's pretty obvious you are ignoring reality and not using judgement to say things.

    and if i remember right, you said you would stop quoting and answering me, what happened with that?
    Do you mind that much? I can't fathom see you utter such nonsense.

  9. #14709
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    its the name of their race, yes, but "official name of the group"? hardly, since they are not a official faction, neither a conjunct group with a common goal or leader, the ones in dalaran are silver covenant by example
    But they are high elves. They identify as such, and don't identify as blood elves.

    Argue as much as you'd like, but it's an inescapable fact: high elves and blood elves are separate groups. Which is why saying "high elves are playable" is wrong.

    Meaningless to who? who said that? your race is human, you play one, troll is a race you play one, they all come from somewhere.
    I also play as a human when I log into my Kul'Tiran druid. I also play as a human when I log into my worgen warlock.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  10. #14710
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Taking you just have 6 posts and a December account im gonna bet you are very familiarized with the subject and know very well how to explain this
    So you're trying to avoid the question, right? Why are identical pandrens in two factions the norm, but practically the same elves are not? Does this contradict lore? No. So why?

  11. #14711
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But they are high elves. They identify as such, and don't identify as blood elves.
    Yes, its their race, they don't need to identify with the other group
    Argue as much as you'd like, but it's an inescapable fact: high elves and blood elves are separate groups.
    i never said they are the same group, i said they are the same race
    Which is why saying "high elves are playable" is wrong.
    If blood elves are high elves, and blood elves are playable, high elves are playable. The high elf Race is playable, the alliance group of high elves is not, indeed.

    I also play as a human when I log into my Kul'Tiran druid. I also play as a human when I log into my worgen warlock
    you play a kul'tiran human, a subrace of humans, you play as a cursed werewolf , who can turn into human. Both totally different thematic and physically

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    It's literally more than 2/3 of the phrase, it's pretty obvious you are ignoring reality and not using judgement to say things..

    "They would be"
    =/= They are

    You are implying something as true with your own accord, based on something who might happens if everything goes with your way, hum.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-18 at 03:05 PM.

  12. #14712
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You are implying something as true with your own accord, based on something who might happens if everything goes with your way, hum.
    You were accusing others of playing with semantics mere hours ago, my dude.

    Caption this: New playable option, High elves, then what would that be? Another race choice as per gameplay terms are concerned.

    It's straightforward logic, you don't even have to think, come on.

  13. #14713
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    its not like we have meta knowledge that fictional characters don't posses , its a debate they are not awere off

    Its not like someone change race just by changing name, their nomenclature is not a issue in the subject just in the fictional world
    So being contradicted IG doesn't bother you ?

    Blood elves themselves, IG, don't consider themselves as High elves and Rommath himself during the purge of Dalaran, doesn't refer the Silver Covenant elves as Alliance high elves but as high elves.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  14. #14714
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    So being contradicted IG doesn't bother you ?

    Blood elves themselves, IG, don't consider themselves as High elves and Rommath himself during the purge of Dalaran, doesn't refer the Silver Covenant elves as Alliance high elves but as high elves.
    there is no contradiction since what the fictional individuals consider themselves doesn't matter in this meta discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Caption this: New playable option, High elves, then what would that be? Another race choice as per gameplay terms are concerned.

    It's straightforward logic, you don't even have to think, come on.
    your logic of they being different races in gameplay is a wishful thinking and projection future of they being playable first, so they will be considered different race in gameplay after that? with that reach i think you can touch Netuno

    Like dude,
    >"they are different in gameplay"
    why?
    >"because when they become playable they will be another raceunder another race choice"

    thats like counting with the chicken eggs inside the duck

  15. #14715
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    • "High elf" characters do not like to be called "blood elf", and vice-versa.
    I am not sure about this one. They are quite proud of Quel'thalas, lament of Quel'dorei and so on. Blood elves are fine with being high elves.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  16. #14716
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    there is no contradiction since what the fictional individuals consider themselves doesn't matter in this meta discussion
    It does

    Different people in different factions in a two-faction game, how in actual actuality does that not matter?

    your logic of they being different races in gameplay is a wishful thinking and projection future of they being playable first, so they will be considered different race in gameplay after that? with that reach i think you can touch Netuno
    Ok, aside from the useless and nonsensical attacks you made in the bolded part, how the hell is what I said wrong?

    What is a playable option? A race.

    Are Kul'tirans a different race from Humans? Nope. Are they a different race from Worgen? Lore also says no.

    What are they? Different 'race' options.

    I'm sorry the game has this kind of nomenclature that confuses you this much, but that doesn't mean we have to accept your personal view of it just because you can't understand it.

    thats like counting with the chicken eggs inside the duck
    Wat.

  17. #14717
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    It does

    Different people in different factions in a two-faction game, how in actual actuality does that not matter?
    Again, the fictional characters don't have meta knowledge, they don't know what we do, and we know what the lore and devs tell us

    Ok, aside from the useless and nonsensical attacks
    always baiting

    Are Kul'tirans a different race from Humans? Nope.
    Yes, they are, they are a different subrace
    Are they a different race from Worgen? Lore also says no.
    yes? worgens are werewolves

    I'm sorry the game has this kind of nomenclature that confuses you this much, but that doesn't mean we have to accept your personal view of it just because you can't understand it.
    your point still is projecting and wishful thinking, you think they are a different race in gameplay because when they become playable they will be treated that way, except, they will not become playable thus, they will not be a "different race in gameplay" you talk about.

    you are counting with something who is not even a thing

    and again you can just do what you said you were going to do and stop quoting me
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-18 at 06:03 PM.

  18. #14718
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Again, the fictional characters don't have meta knowledge, they don't know what we do, and we know what the lore and devs tell us
    I see this is your new phrase to throw when you don't want to reason about the matter. It's not that deep bro.

    You have evaded the question, Syegfry, how two different people in different factions in a two-faction game doesn't matter?

    always baiting
    What?

    Yes, they are, they are a different subrace
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ...thats why people keep playing with semantics to validate...
    Who is playing with semantics here, Syegfry?

    yes? worgens are werewolves
    It's druidic magic, Syegfry, they can control the transformation and their children are born as humans.

    your point still is projecting and wishful thinking, you think they are a different race in gameplay because when they become playable they will be treated that way, except, they will not become playable thus, they will not be a "different race in gameplay" you talk about.
    What is more wishful thinking than saying that because something you don't like is not in some way now it will never be because it's not that way now?

    Please, read twice what you wrote, it makes no sense. A playable option is a 'race option' as per gameplay terminology is concerned, Syegfry, and that will ever forever be true no matter if something is actual or if it's hypothetical.

    The fact that you deny things so in your face just to be contrarian while telling others that they are having fails in their judgement because they have an 'evil agenda' actually seems like projecting, my fine dude.

    you are counting with something who is not even a thing
    Are playable options being called 'race' not a thing? Why do you make such a problem over such tiny thing?

    and again you can just do what you said you were going to do and stop quoting me
    I had my reasons to put you on the ignore list, and these reasons have been corroborated again by your recent revisiting of the thread, but I will give it some time since I'm enjoying this easy exchange, it's in my hand after all, but if you say the magical word, I might heed your wishes and stop bothering you with these kind of messages that do nothing but expose your flaws in logic.

  19. #14719
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i never said they are the same group, i said they are the same race
    Which is irrelevant for "playable race" purposes. Kul'Tirans aren't a "sub-race", they are humans.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  20. #14720
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is irrelevant for "playable race" purposes. Kul'Tirans aren't a "sub-race", they are humans.
    which is totally relevant since you are ignoring the other factors, the other humans 1)Are another breed of human(aka subrace), 2) are drastically different physically from other humans, 3) have another thematic, 4) are in the same factions

    they are not "just humans", its a oversimplification trying to prove more your point, HE are not another breed, they are not different from other elves, they are the same, they have the same thematic and in different factions

    You simple have to overcome all of that first, making then different enough with magic(like VE) or different trough generations (like nightborne)

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