Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Frenchvince]

Frankly if I were Blizzard I'd prioritise people actually playing Blood Elves and what they want added because Blood Elves are an actually playable race. And we know what they think of the pro High Elf communities requests, given the level of snark Ion delievered the 2018 answer with.

Luckily you are not blizzard lol

They can no longer afford to shit (especially with the alliance).

[Aldo Hawk]

His 'why high elves should be an allied race' video entirely skipped over any discussion of the main reason as to why they were actually passed over, the impact they would have on faction diversity and as such reached a flawed conclusion, as any conclusion would be if you skipped over a large part of what informed the decision making process.

Because it's not your conclusion.

This video isn't as flawed as his high elf discussion but it does highlight a problem with his methodology when it comes to making speculative videos such as these, as we saw in the previous class skins video and tinker videos he did.

Because it's not your methodology.

For example, he speculates that the Forsaken could get undead options of every race. That isn't going to happen of course and I reckon he knows it isn't going to happen, but that is why some speculation shouldn't be treated as based on hard fact or a strong feeling that it is going to happen. Some speculation is just for fun, to tease an idea, which is what for the most part he is doing here.

Because it's not your speculation.

What I do find funny is his high elf commentary, where he recognises the easiest way to add a high elf 'option' to the game is just to give Blood Elves a blue eyes customisation.

What is funny is that you don't stare for a moment in front of a phrase that isn't true and don't question it because it's something you would have said, but very veiled, and not in the humoristic tone the T&E channel has because you are obsessed with looking serious.

I find it funny because if all that stands between him and a recognition that a high elf option is in the game is an eye colour, that he is basing his dissent from Blizzard's stated fact 'that Blood Elves are our High Elves' on what will ultimately be two or three options among eleven or twelve under the fifth or sixth category of Blood Elven customisation.

If at this point you haven't understood that a blue eyed Blood elf is not a High elf (as per the name of the group, obviously, not everyone needs to be constantly reminded of the fact ) then there's nothing actually important that you have to say about it, just more useless fluff as per usual.

And no, 'Blood Elves are our High Elves' does not mean what you think it means, maybe revisit the source and try to look at it without critical clutter

[FlubberPuddy]

T&E video discussion

The whole point is he said the exact same things about Dwarves/Trolls customization as I said. He also said what the High Elf fanbase have been saying forever, when people talk about "wanting to play a High Elf" they are asking for a very specific group of elves.

That he has enough of a mind to understand this and not garble the ignorant "you just wanna play Blood Elves" is a win in my book since he represents a higher authority within the general WoW community and has influence over a larger portion of the playerbase.

Win imo to High Elf fans.

At least you've admitted it here, we can dispense with all the other discussion because your stance on this particular matter is supremely easy to summarise. Void Elves should get the Blood Elf skin tone range because otherwise you'd have to play Horde.

LMAO, so because I bring up an obvious point: Playing a Void Elf is very different from playing a Blood Elf compared to playing the Dwarves/Orcs, then all discussion doesn't matter?

What does that even have to do with showing you Ion's stated goal on what increased customizations are and how they're about looking different from others playing the exact same race? A rhetorical question, it's nothing.

I'll take this as another win too, as you appear to not be able to handle arguing against what the stated design goals of the increased customization are and latching onto points I've never stated.

I think it's hilarious that you think you've revealed some truth or something. What I said about Dwarves and Orcs holds true vs Void Elves/Blood Elves(and the other 2 elves). You don't gain a sense of what all elves are about just by playing 1 vs you get the sense of what all Dwarves/Orcs are about regardless of which one you choose.

Another win for me, thank you for conceding!

- - - Updated - - -

Luckily you are not blizzard lol

Exactly. Yet he often types in a way which he thinks he is.

But as T&E video points out. It's much more likely the general player mindset is the same. Most of the playerbase understands what High Elf fans want when they ask for High Elves, a specific group of elves that are part of the boys in blue faction.

He also points out what most people know too: putting blue eyes on Blood Elves is ofc the easiest way for Blizzard to say "there's your high elf option" but it actually does nothing for the fans who have been asking for playable High Elves as they're asking for that very specific group of elves.

It's good to see that sentiment because T&E's content is generally dedicated to the more larger/wider casual playerbase audience.

[erifwodahs]

But as T&E video points out. It's much more likely the general player mindset is the same. Most of the playerbase understands what High Elf fans want when they ask for High Elves, a specific group of elves that are part of the boys in blue faction.

He also points out what most people know too: putting blue eyes on Blood Elves is ofc the easiest way for Blizzard to say "there's your high elf option" but it actually does nothing for the fans who have been asking for playable High Elves as they're asking for that very specific group of elves.

It's good to see that sentiment because T&E's content is generally dedicated to the more larger/wider casual playerbase audience.

General playerbase does not understand anything about what high elf fans wants, I don't think most of them know what high elves are or what is the difference between belf and helf. . General playerbase only thinks that it's just another belf reskin.
Source - random guy with a bunch of wow playing friends bored to death in this lockdown.

[DemonHunter18]

it's actually very sad.

High Elves were demanded since forever but people got Void Elves instead.

[Obelisk Kai]

The whole point is he said the exact same things about Dwarves/Trolls customization as I said. He also said what the High Elf fanbase have been saying forever, when people talk about "wanting to play a High Elf" they are asking for a very specific group of elves.

That he has enough of a mind to understand this and not garble the ignorant "you just wanna play Blood Elves" is a win in my book since he represents a higher authority within the general WoW community and has influence over a larger portion of the playerbase.

Win imo to High Elf fans.

Taliesin and Evitel are a higher authority within the general WoW community and therefore their opinion counts as a win? Don't get me wrong I find them hugely entertaining but they are often wrong and some of their speculation is clearly just for the fun of it rather than a serious prediction. And they are not an authority. The use of the term 'authority' was done by yourself to inflate this 'win' you think you've gotten.

The last 'massive win' you had on that score was his April 2018 video which ended up backing high elves as an Allied race which as I recall was posted everywhere by pro high elfers. Funny thing is your 'higher authority' was undermined at the end of the month by an actual authority. If this is your latest huge win, then based on precedent we will have alpha imminently and blue eyes for Blood Elves confirmed within hours of the first datamined build.

You do just want to play Blood Elves. A Blood Elf is indistinguishable from a High Elf except for their political opinion which is expressed as faction preference. If that were not the case, the Alliance loyal thalassian elves the Alliance did end up getting, the Void Elves, would have been enough (and as one of the most popular allied races clearly were enough for tens of thousands of players).

LMAO, so because I bring up an obvious point: Playing a Void Elf is very different from playing a Blood Elf compared to playing the Dwarves/Orcs, then all discussion doesn't matter?

What does that even have to do with showing you Ion's stated goal on what increased customizations are and how they're about looking different from others playing the exact same race? A rhetorical question, it's nothing.

I'll take this as another win too, as you appear to not be able to handle arguing against what the stated design goals of the increased customization are and latching onto points I've never stated.

I think it's hilarious that you think you've revealed some truth or something. What I said about Dwarves and Orcs holds true vs Void Elves/Blood Elves(and the other 2 elves). You don't gain a sense of what all elves are about just by playing 1 vs you get the sense of what all Dwarves/Orcs are about regardless of which one you choose.

Another win for me, thank you for conceding!

There is no win for you. There is never a win for you. There is probably never going to be a win for you. A win for you is an Alliance high elf allied or core race with a distinct introduction, racials and a recognised place within the Alliance. We are currently arguing over the dregs of this discussion, whether Blizzard will add pretend high elf options to void elves so that your void elf can look like an ersatz high elf. Frankly if you want to make this about winning or losing then my side of the argument won the moment they introduced Void Elves and we're wrangling over whether there should be a consolation prize.

You rejected the logical outcome of what you were arguing, that if the aesthetic differentiation between a Core race and it's associated allied race was removed for one pairing, then why not for all other pairings because you cited the one difference between the other pairings and the Blood/Void Elf (and Night Elf/Nightborne) scenarios, namely that these pairs are separated by the faction wall.

What is amazing about your logic is that you are actually arguing that because the Orc pair, the Draenei pair and Dwarf pair are on the same faction then they wouldn't need to get the aesthetic of their counterpart because that option is already available but that the faction barrier, by it's existence, facilitates the Void Elves getting access to the Blood Elf skin tone range because otherwise Alliance players couldn't access it.

The same faction wall that precluded Blizzard from giving high elves to the Alliance in the first place because it would blur the lines between the factions. The same faction wall Blizzard cited as hugely important as recently as last Blizzcon when they again and again reaffirmed the importance of keeping both sides separate.

The same faction wall that actually led to you getting Void Elves in other words is somehow, through a complete inversion of their stated reasoning on this matter so far, going to be a positive factor in Void Elves getting high elf skins when their customization pass comes. And you came to this conclusion because Dwarves are getting Wildhammer skins and Trolls are getting Farakki skins?

That's just nonsense.

Exactly. Yet he often types in a way which he thinks he is.

But as T&E video points out. It's much more likely the general player mindset is the same. Most of the playerbase understands what High Elf fans want when they ask for High Elves, a specific group of elves that are part of the boys in blue faction.

He also points out what most people know too: putting blue eyes on Blood Elves is ofc the easiest way for Blizzard to say "there's your high elf option" but it actually does nothing for the fans who have been asking for playable High Elves as they're asking for that very specific group of elves.

It's good to see that sentiment because T&E's content is generally dedicated to the more larger/wider casual playerbase audience.

Please spare me the strawman attack of 'he thinks he's a developer, he's so arrogant, he can't see the truth'. That implies the pro High Elf community has a respect for what the actual developers say. Every developer statement on this topic, including the flat out 'no' you got, was immediately pilloried (Ion was termed an idiot multiple times) or heavily reinterpreted to be even slightly more favourable.

Everyone knows what you want. High Elves in the Alliance. The problem is you are so fixated on what you want that you refuse to engage with the truth; we don't need blue eyes on Blood Elves to have the high elf option. Blood Elves already are the high elf option in game and high elves are the exact same race as the Blood Elves.

The Alliance was given a variant of a Horde race, a 95% match. Most Alliance players seem to be happy with what they have. But a hardcore minority does need to be appeased when their version of compromise is a 100% win.

And on the last point of T&E's video, the one reaching out a casual playerbase, the sole mention they have of high elves is that they hope they don't add them because the obvious way to add them is to give Blood Elves blue eyes and that it would upset the pro high elf people, admitting in a few sentences that 1.) The 'casual' playerbase sees high elves as blue eyed blood elves 2.) The only tangible physical difference between the exiles and the Blood Elves would be eliminated by the addition of an eye shade and 3.) the reason they gave for not adding them was to not upset people who want to play high elves rather than a real objection as to why it would damage the game.

Not the best 'win'.

[FlubberPuddy]

You do just want to play Blood Elves.

Comments like these are exactly why that video is a win. As they succinctly describe what it is the High Elf fans want. And that's good because as a higher authority in the community (and yes they do have higher authority than you or me or any rando player, accept that reality) it's something the WoW designers can take further stock of on the topic.

That you continue to ignorantly put words into other's mouth is what's not a win. There's already an available option to play a Blood Elf in the game, if what you're saying is what really is the case then "High Elf fans wanting to play High Elves" wouldn't even be a thing. It wouldn't be a "long-known requested option" as put in the T&E video. We have Blood Elves for how many years now? How can something stay as a long-requested if purportedly "people just wanna play Blood Elves"?

People would simply play Blood Elves and that'd be it. Just like people want player housing still despite Ion stating Garrisons "are our version of player housing". Continuing to stay ignorant about it and say "no you don't actually want what you're saying, you actually want this instead" just makes you look foolish instead.

You rejected the logical outcome of what you were arguing, that if the aesthetic differentiation between a Core race and it's associated allied race was removed for one pairing, then why not for all other pairings because you cited the one difference between the other pairings and the Blood/Void Elf (and Night Elf/Nightborne) scenarios, namely that these pairs are separated by the faction wall.

This doesn't even make sense to me and doesn't sound like what I was arguing at all. Nice strawman.

What is amazing about your logic is that you are actually arguing that because the Orc pair, the Draenei pair and Dwarf pair are on the same faction then they wouldn't need to get the aesthetic of their counterpart because that option is already available but that the faction barrier, by it's existence, facilitates the Void Elves getting access to the Blood Elf skin tone range because otherwise Alliance players couldn't access it.

Yes, and I don't see how this doesn't make sense. It would be like if one of the customization options added in the future puts a Goblin onto the Alliance with customization options not available with Horde Goblins.

Now a Goblin player cannot simply play Horde Goblins to have access to all their looks, they must upend their guilds/groups etc if they wanted to access options for Goblins exclusive to Alliance side.

How does that not make sense? Why wouldn't the Horde player request access to similar options so they can stay on the faction they have pride in if faction has such importance?

Orc, Tauren, Troll, Draenei, Dwarf, Gnome players all do not have to leave their faction to get access to all race customizations for their given faction. There is no need at all for Green Orcs to get Mag'har customization because both options are available already to Horde. There is no need for Dark Iron options on Dwarves because both options are available already for Alliance.

The Elves are an exception. And it should be obvious by now that Night Elf players have been wishing for more Highborne customizations (customizations that basically the Nightborne have). Why are they asking for it? Because those customization options are not available to Night Elves on Alliance side.

Are you still having trouble understanding this? You seem to be struggling with it. This is why your "do you expect Mag'har to get Green Orc customization" does not make sense. It is already there, on the same side. Is that how it is for Void Elves/Blood Elves?

Blood Elf players are wanting beard options available to Void Elf players since those were revealed, are you going around adamantly telling them to go play a Void Elf to have beards on Blood Elves? Should Blood Elf players not ask for more beard options for males because that's already a thing on Void Elves? That's how stupid your argument sounds because that would be the logical conclusion for it.

I think it's hilarious how you try to put great importance on "factions matter" then at the same time try to minimize it "oh just go play on the other side".

The same faction wall that actually led to you getting Void Elves in other words is somehow, through a complete inversion of their stated reasoning on this matter so far, going to be a positive factor in Void Elves getting high elf skins when their customization pass comes. And you came to this conclusion because Dwarves are getting Wildhammer skins and Trolls are getting Farakki skins?

That's just nonsense.

You must be nonsensical then because you've repeatedly stated that you agree it's possible for Void Elves to get "high elf like" options. How does Darkspear Trolls getting skins of different troll tribes not support that? A jungle troll would be very different from a sand troll, just as Kul'Tirans were made "seafaring specialty humans" and thus have racials tied to it. Only here with increased customizations Blizzard are just throwing out racials mattering since sand trolls will be an increased customization over being an Allied Race (despite the potential to be one in the same vein as a Kul'Tiran/HMT/LFD).

That implies the pro High Elf community has a respect for what the actual developers say.

They do, hence why the arguments and reasonings have taken the developer comments into account. I mean really you have admitted to watching both videos from T&E that contain High Elf bits where these arguments and reasonings take into account developer comments in a very succinct manner. I am not sure what else you are looking for.

Are you just looking for people to accept it is whatever Blizzard says without challenging it? Cuz that seems to be the case. Except it's not the first and won't be last time players challenge what Blizzard says, account-wide essences is another example, the pruned class abilities, making alts more accessible, the gcd changes, etc etc.

There are many things that players challenge of what Blizzard says. But you seem to just be trying to side-wind your way around saying, "accept what they said and stfu and be grateful for it" as this appears to be what you're getting at.

Everyone knows what you want. High Elves in the Alliance. The problem is you are so fixated on what you want that you refuse to engage with the truth; we don't need blue eyes on Blood Elves to have the high elf option. Blood Elves already are the high elf option in game and high elves are the exact same race as the Blood Elves.

This entire segment disregards that character customization isn't a need, but a want. One could argue we don't need increased customizations on existing races (what you are arguing essentially) and that focus should go to adding new races currently not available. Increased customizations throw out the "we don't need" bit. It's what people want. It's what people have wanted for a long time, and now they're finally getting it.

High Elves are another thing people have wanted for a long time, still remains to be seen if they get.

And on the last point of T&E's video, the one reaching out a casual playerbase, the sole mention they have of high elves is that they hope they don't add them because the obvious way to add them is to give Blood Elves blue eyes and that it would upset the pro high elf people, admitting in a few sentences that 1.) The 'casual' playerbase sees high elves as blue eyed blood elves 2.) The only tangible physical difference between the exiles and the Blood Elves would be eliminated by the addition of an eye shade and 3.) the reason they gave for not adding them was to not upset people who want to play high elves rather than a real objection as to why it would damage the game.

Not the best 'win'.

He states "it would be the simplest thing for Blizzard to do" which is true and is what everyone accepts: putting Blue eyes on Blood Elves then going around to herald 'see high elves now'. It would be no different than if Blizzard decided to put brown skins on green orcs and say 'there now you have mag'har' or put spotty green skins with an upright option onto darkspear and say 'there's your zandalari'. I'm highly confident the fans of Mag'har or Zandalari would be upset if that was a case for them as well.

It in no way means "the casual playerbase accepts these as mag'har and zandalari". It just means Blizzard took the laziest route they could and did not care for what those fans wanted.

Same as we're seeing them give us 100% right now for kicks, do you think they're doing this just because "it helps to bring the game to a better state and not damage it"? No, it's because it provides an incentive to help with social isolation. Has nothing to do with being better or worse for the game.

Just like if they do add blue eyes to Blood Elves and then say "this is your high elves that's it". Except they've stated High Elves are a possibility on Alliance so I don't believe it matters whether blue eyes come to Blood Elves. It only changes if as I said, they then proclaim "we decided this is how we're going to handle high elves."

[Aldo Hawk]

it's actually very sad.

High Elves were demanded since forever but people got Void Elves instead.

It's as if devs are out of touch or something, isn't it?

- - - Updated - - -

There is no win for you. There is never a win for you. There is probably never going to be a win for you. A win for you is an Alliance high elf allied or core race with a distinct introduction, racials and a recognised place within the Alliance.

I'm sorry to say but this sounds too petty, even for previous standards.

You don't get to say what others consider a win, my fine dude, because in actual actuality, you are just another random, don't forget that, stop behaving like some sort of authority.

[Katchii]

Yeah, this is true.


No, not once the phrase 'Blood elves are our High elves' appear on that link.

Never said it did, was just pointing out where the argument was coming from. How The WoW Blood Elves were somewhat designed to fit the classic fantasy role of the "High Elf."

Not getting into the whole Blood Elf vs High Elf playable race thing. There's enough lore to support them being added, and that's about where I stand on it...whether they get added or not, I don't care.

[Aldo Hawk]

Never said it did, was just pointing out where the argument was coming from. How The WoW Blood Elves were somewhat designed to fit the classic fantasy role of the "High Elf."

Fair enough.

Not getting into the whole Blood Elf vs High Elf playable race thing. There's enough lore to support them being added, and that's about where I stand on it...whether they get added or not, I don't care.

Me neither somewhat, I tried to level an alliance character the past 4 months and I didn't went over level 70 something if I remember well, because I can't even remember, and it was a death knight.

I only want this because it's part of the classical lore of Warcraft, and players can't access that part of the Alliance.

[Arenchac of Suramar]

You know, you people are really kind of zealous and hostile over getting to be a fictional race in your video game, and, worse, not wanting people to get to be their fictional race in a video game.

We're in an era of severe moral decay and social upheaval, with numerous topics for realistic conversation. Perhaps you could find something more productive to argue about?

[Aldo Hawk]

You know, you people are really kind of zealous and hostile over getting to be a fictional race in your video game, and, worse, not wanting people to get to be their fictional race in a video game.

You aren't actually adressing any problem, just saying that we are all hostile for no real reason whatsoever over the topic. There's a reason why the discussion can't exist in a normal, healthy way, since the existence of it is more than enough for those in favor to try to be heard again and again over time, while the other side's intention is to derail and destroy all topics on all forums to cause the other side to not have a public voice, that's why this discussion has gotten so disgusting and toxic.

We're in an era of severe moral decay and social upheaval, with numerous topics for realistic conversation. Perhaps you could find something more productive to argue about?

What makes you think this topic is the only thing that, for example I, talk about?

I can't be bothered with the sickness of the west all day, but sadly, it's everywhere, everyday.

[Varx]

This is the week people. The week the high elf agenda dies with the reveal of blue eyes for belves once alpha datamining begins. Rejoice!

[Manariel]

This is the week people. The week the high elf agenda dies with the reveal of blue eyes for belves once alpha datamining begins. Rejoice!

You're dreaming right ?

Even if Blizzard is dumb enough to give Blood Elves blue eyes, it wouldn't kill the High Elves allied race potentiality.

[FlubberPuddy]

Even if Blizzard is dumb enough to give Blood Elves blue eyes, it wouldn't kill the High Elves allied race potentiality.

Also that after the new eye changes High Elves carry eyes closer to that of regular humans. So they can get the various colors open to humans, unlike Blood Elves whose eyeballs are dictated by magical energies.

[Varx]

You're dreaming right ?

Even if Blizzard is dumb enough to give Blood Elves blue eyes, it wouldn't kill the High Elves allied race potentiality.

How is it dumb? The sunwell is holy and arcane. Green, gold, and blue eyes are all lore friendly at this point.

Thus helves would have nothing left to differentiate themselves from belves. As if eye color was enough.

Then all you'd have left is faction differences which would be the same as copy pasting humans to the horde and call them defias humans and pretend that they're actually a "new" race.

"Oh but they have different lore, culture, and allegiances so they should have different racials and hair, blah blah blah". Lol give me a break.

[FlubberPuddy]

Lol give me a break.

You should give yourself a break. Nobody forces you to come back and parrot same exact thing you've already said 100+ pages ago.

But you probably can't help yourself.

[Arenchac of Suramar]

You aren't actually adressing any problem, just saying that we are all hostile for no real reason whatsoever over the topic. There's a reason why the discussion can't exist in a normal, healthy way, since the existence of it is more than enough for those in favor to try to be heard again and again over time, while the other side's intention is to derail and destroy all topics on all forums to cause the other side to not have a public voice, that's why this discussion has gotten so disgusting and toxic.


What makes you think this topic is the only thing that, for example I, talk about?

I can't be bothered with the sickness of the west all day, but sadly, it's everywhere, everyday.

Honestly, I am kind of sorry for that earlier post. I was somewhat in a bad mood and obsessive-compulsive tendencies can be a bitch, so I've basically been super-neurotic and stressed over the last few days. I'm honestly just more confused as to why this is such an area of aggression for the fanbase and why this gets so toxic so often.

The thing is I don't think this should have sides in either way that are so intent to see or not see this happen. The addition of High Elves would please some people, but I can also very easily understand hoping they conserve their resources for other Allied Races and the like over adding something that we kind of have portrayed as is.

Admittedly, it's very funny to me how those who are so heavily anti-High Elf would spend their time on this, but I also find it just as strange that you guys are so highly intent on seeing this added, too. I think we all just need to seriously calm down a lot of the hectic and obsessive behavior of a very simple and ultimately pointless thing.

I can see there are actually a lot of very interesting ideas for how High Elves could be implemented without becoming redundant here, so it is kind of a fun idea. They're not really my cup of tea, but the aesthetics proposed are very interesting and I could see how High Elves could contribute to the lore in the days to come.

On the other hand, it's just kind of stupid that people are so zealous about this. It's not even a real race, but one that's purely theoretical. I don't see why anyone would be this obsessive about seeing it added nor seeing it not added.

I'm going to maintain that the anti-High Elf side is definitely far more toxic, overall, however. It seems like this thread was initially a fun little design and development thread that was taken far too seriously.

[Monster Hunter]

Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.

I don't think allied races are getting added customization in shadowlands, I think that was mentioned in one of the panals that this was an expansion of core races customization. I'll try to dig up the link tmoz when I get up. But I'm pretty sure I recall them saying words to the effect. As I was bummed my zandalari wasn't getting anymore bling.

youtube.com/watch?v=fMpe_i5SdBo&t=5m55s

Found it at 5:55 in the vid.

The dk allied races though "might" get some dk specific customization but that is based on interpretation of the 8.3 allied race dk advert.

[Varx]

You should give yourself a break. Nobody forces you to come back and parrot same exact thing you've already said 100+ pages ago.

But you probably can't help yourself.

Just like everyone else both pro and against helves in this thread. This is a comedy show. Cant wait to see what other excuses are made to try and justify helves in the alliance one belves get blue eyes during SL.

At that point might as well demand helves to be the alliance equal to tushui pandas and give the horde a new paladin race to compensate. Only way it'll work.