1. #14721
    Blizzard:*Gives paladins to the Horde and shamans to the Alliance*

    Blizzard:*Adds identical pandarens to both factions*

    Also Blizzard: -High elves can disrupt the identity of factions.
    Last edited by Aldefard Aelfwine; 2020-03-13 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #14722
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    But we know what makes a Void Elf, getting zapped by enough void energy to trigger a transformation. There is a discrete set of events that makes a Void Elf. You cannot play a Void Elf who was never a Void Elf. You cannot play a Lightforged Draenei who never lightforged. You cannot play a Nightborne who wasn't a Nightborne. Certain races are circumscribed by their backstories. Many aren't. So the Wildhammer got what they wanted but what they wanted can never be replicated into what you want, being a genuine high elf using a void elf as a substitute. That simply doesn't work. A Void Elf is always going to be a Void Elf. You can roleplay an exile who was turned into a Void Elf, but never an exile who was never a Void Elf.
    A Void Elf must take in Void but that does not mean they must look pale/sickly blue/purple. Alleria is the example of this.

    I do not think most care if they select "Void Elf" if we in fact get to look like Alleria. A being who took in Void, and is referred as Void Elf.

    Just as they write new explanations for how AR DK are made that conforms to previously established lore. They can very easily explain High Elf customization on Void Elves by saying "they took in Void in a different way similar but not same as to Alleria, a new refined approach of taking in Void."

    Somehow you're trying to make it come off as some win by saying "you'll still be a Void Elf despite High Elf customization!" despite knowing that vast majority will not care, just as they do not care for Wildhammer Dwarves being shoehorned into Bronzebeards. They finally get to play the race they want on the faction they want.

  3. #14723
    It really isn't rocket science.

    "After months of research in Telogrus Rift, Magister Umbric and his people found a way to switch back to their Quel'dorei form like Alleria."

    Done, pink skin tones for Void Elves available.

  4. #14724
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Calling it a bratty reaction is appropriate. If you gave a child a present that was very similar but not exactly what they wanted and there were circumstances at play that prevented you from giving what exactly was wanted, say (to continue the child analogy) the present they wanted was owned and played with by another child they knew and they wanted that specific one, then yes, an upset reaction would be correctly categorised as bratty.

    In this case, there are genuine red lines which prevented them from granting an exact duplicate of a core Horde race to the Alliance which the hardcore pro High Elf community disregards or ignores and holds in such contempt that they cannot conceive as to why they've been denied, hence the rejection of the Void Elf compromise by the hardcore.
    I mean you can then call any complaints at Blizzard "bratty". I can say your complaints to them are bratty because they've explained why they went in the direction they did for the game as they still don't acknowledge it was a completely wrong direction.

    You're essentially trying to say, "you should be happy with what you're given and give no complaints". If that's to be the case then no one should be giving any negative feedback on anything right? Oh but you're going to tell me the exception is here in this topic only.

    And nice hand-waving that again, people only continue to bring this up because it's such a popular request.

    Just like people will continue to bring up cross-faction gameplay, or flying at begining of expansions, or getting rid of titanforging. It has nothing to do with being bratty and all it means is you're calling posters children which can be see as grounds for infraction.
    Last edited by Geisl; 2020-03-13 at 10:13 PM.

  5. #14725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    Blizzard:*Gives paladins to the Horde and shamans to the Alliance*

    Blizzard:*Adds identical pandarens to both factions*

    Also Blizzard: -High elves can disrupt the identity of factions.
    This, basically, while ignoring the fact that High elves ARE Alliance identity.
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  6. #14726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    The problem is saturating the damn game with redundant races just because some players cant get past the fact that technically high elves exist in the horde, just not the extremely specific group of high elves they want.
    "Redundant races" are not a problem. People don't dislike solely because some are redundant, they dislike a 'race slot' is 'used up' to grant the redundancy, which btw most have been ok for the Void Elf/Nightborne swap because you are bringing something that doesn't already exist on one faction (A Blood Elf to Alliance | A Night Elf to Horde).

    This is why crowds cheered and hollered when they unveiled the increased customizations that are going to be added to existing race slots. Despite that people call mechagnomes and LFD and HMT "redundant", because the reasoning these AR are "redundant" is because they could've been much better implemented through their existing race slots and thus being better received.

    And btw Mag'har Orcs and Dark Irons are exceptions here as well, people praise them as AR go, despite being "redundant" because why? They were highly requested since forever. Again, the redundancy is not the main detractor.

    The use of an extra slot is what's the contention, not the idea of having a more mechanized gnome, a holier draenei, or more nature-y tauren.
    Last edited by Geisl; 2020-03-13 at 08:06 PM.

  7. #14727
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    The use of an extra slot is what's the contention, not the idea of having a more mechanized gnome, a holier draenei, or more nature-y tauren.
    And this is Blizzard's fault for releasing so many allied races at the same time, half of them not being even expected or historically wanted (Bless Aman'thul we got Dark Irons and 'Mag'har' somewhat, and Zandalari.), and then slowing the release of races dramatically while the banners have a shape and size that makes people think that such thing is 'finite'.

    I'ts all psychological crap people came up with mixed with Blizzard's fuckery.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2020-03-13 at 07:58 PM.
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  8. #14728

  9. #14729
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    Blizzard:*Gives paladins to the Horde and shamans to the Alliance*

    Blizzard:*Adds identical pandarens to both factions*

    Also Blizzard: -High elves can disrupt the identity of factions.
    back to square one: make Wardens Alliance exclusive and make Shadow Hunters Horde exclusive
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  10. #14730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    back to square one: make Wardens Alliance exclusive and make Shadow Hunters Horde exclusive
    I'd support that.

  11. #14731
    They are Night Elves. Their island team literally carries "The Highborne" moniker which is what the upper class of Night Elf society called themselves. Highborne is a Night Elven societal term. All Nightborne all Highborne, thus all Nightborne are Night Elves.
    Nightborn can trace their roots to Night Elves to one society yes, but 10 000 years of isolated existence has made them a separate society. While one can argue that both of them can claim the name ”Night Elves”, they have in fact grown into two completely different societies and cultures, and even physique (due to night well exposure). Noone sees nightborn like the playable race that is called night elves, they emit a completely different feeling. High elves and blood elves are separated by 10 years with no significant differences whatsoever, especially now that the sunwell is restored. It’s the same race, same culture, different eye color.

  12. #14732
    Simple but good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinraye View Post
    Nightborn can trace their roots to Night Elves to one society yes, but 10 000 years of isolated existence has made them a separate society. While one can argue that both of them can claim the name ”Night Elves”, they have in fact grown into two completely different societies and cultures, and even physique (due to night well exposure). Noone sees nightborn like the playable race that is called night elves, they emit a completely different feeling. High elves and blood elves are separated by 10 years with no significant differences whatsoever, especially now that the sunwell is restored. It’s the same race, same culture, different eye color.
    Well, blood elves are Highborne too.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  13. #14733
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Calling it a bratty reaction is appropriate. If you gave a child a present that was very similar but not exactly what they wanted
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?

    Or if the kid asks for a Spider-Man backpack, but you come home with this, you still think he should "stop having a bratty reaction"?

    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves. Not to mention all the promises of "stories to tell" regarding the void elves that amount to nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  14. #14734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?

    Or if the kid asks for a Spider-Man backpack, but you come home with this, you still think he should "stop having a bratty reaction"?

    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves. Not to mention all the promises of "stories to tell" regarding the void elves that amount to nothing.
    I think the conclusion we can come to is that the WoW team's commentary for design decisions they implement into the game are whatever fits the bill at the moment.

    Ion was already shown to have said Zandalari won't get dinosaur forms outside of a travel form raptor, then Zandalari got them (due to player outcry obviously).

    Danuser just recently came out and said Sylvanas was written to be like Garrosh 2.0 intentionally, "but with nuance" aka don't kill her in the expansion she premieres as a villain. So they denying her being Garrosh 2.0 was a straight up lie too.

    With Patrick Dawson's comment on cross-faction for Ion's as another example of devs changing their mindset (just like Alex's response to High Elves vs Ion's), we can come to a conclusion based on the patterns above:

    The team will defend whatever decision they make for the game at present until they simply don't defend it anymore.

  15. #14735
    Just wanted to drop in MMO-Champion to officially put in my support for playable High Elves for the Alliance.

  16. #14736
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Danuser just recently came out and said Sylvanas was written to be like Garrosh 2.0 intentionally, "but with nuance" aka don't kill her in the expansion she premieres as a villain. So they denying her being Garrosh 2.0 was a straight up lie too.
    I am willing to bet good money that we'll be killing her in Shadowlands. Just like we killed Garrosh in Warlords of Draenor, The icing on the cake will be if we kill her during the leveling experience, like we did with Garrosh, but I figure the most likely scenario is that she'll be the "Gul'Dan/Azshara" of Shadowlands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  17. #14737
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?

    Or if the kid asks for a Spider-Man backpack, but you come home with this, you still think he should "stop having a bratty reaction"?

    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves. Not to mention all the promises of "stories to tell" regarding the void elves that amount to nothing.
    I feel that using your example isn't the best way to get your point across. If my child decided to throw a tantrum over a gift that someone (or myself) gave them, then I'd dispose of the gift and they'd learn a very harsh lesson in being grateful for what's given.

    Let me be clear, I am not saying you (as a generalization) should be grateful for Blood Elves or Void Elves, since that's clearly not what you're wanting. The analogy doesn't work the same way, because ultimately, if it was that big of an issue, you could speak with your wallets and cease giving Blizzard money until they take your concerns/ideas seriously. Since you're mostly adults capable of such things.

    Personally, I have nothing to lose or gain by the inclusion/exclusion of High Elves. I like my blood elf characters as much as I like my void elf characters. It's pre-established lore vs. new lore.

    A few little caveats though -- There are too many elves. This alone might diminish the possibility of High Elves getting added. Night Elves, Nightborne, High Elves, Void Elves. Two for each factions.

    But the people who want High Elves think that Void Elves are bullshit and shouldn't have ever been added. I, and I'm quite sure plenty of others, are perfectly happy with their 'Ren'dorei'.

    But people think the Nightborne are a pale comparison to what we saw in Legion. I, and I'm quite sure plenty of others, are perfectly happy with the models and all that jazz that went into the race. (My Combat Rogue looks boss as fuck, fight me.)

    Unfortunately, all the logic (from both sides of the coin) mean absolutely nothing if Blizzard doesn't intend to add any more Allied Races, and given the nature of the next expansion, I sincerely doubt any new ARs will be added (Four new factions to join, who're re/un-dead and have lived longer than most of the races on Azeroth given the lore that's been released).
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  18. #14738
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    I feel that using your example isn't the best way to get your point across. If my child decided to throw a tantrum over a gift that someone (or myself) gave them, then I'd dispose of the gift and they'd learn a very harsh lesson in being grateful for what's given.
    You know your kid is a huge fan of Spider-Man. He loves the shows. He loves the comics. He loves the toys. And he has been asking for a Spider-Man backpack for quie, quite some time. And, on his birthday, you show up with this backpack in hand. Yes, it's a gift, but it's either: a) a very mean-spirited gift, with the intention to 'troll' the kid; or b) a gift that shows the complete lack of understanding for what your kid has been asking for.

    Let me be clear, I am not saying you (as a generalization) should be grateful for Blood Elves or Void Elves, since that's clearly not what you're wanting. The analogy doesn't work the same way, because ultimately, if it was that big of an issue, you could speak with your wallets and cease giving Blizzard money until they take your concerns/ideas seriously. Since you're mostly adults capable of such things.
    High elves not being a playable race is not going to ruin the game for me. It would enhance the experience for me, if they were playable, but it won't ruin it for me if they're not. I'm content the way the game is, right now.

    But the people who want High Elves think that Void Elves are bullshit and shouldn't have ever been added. I, and I'm quite sure plenty of others, are perfectly happy with their 'Ren'dorei'.
    Of course you don't. You don't have a "horse in the race", so to speak. And that's ok. You're completely within your right to enjoy the Void Elves. But many of us who wanted High Elves for the longest time can't help but not like the void elves for the fact of what they could have been. They could have been high elves, and almost nothing about the story would need to change. Umbric would still be the elf eager to show his worth to the Alliance. The void elves have zero weight in the story of this expansion. A story about Old Gods and the void.

    And speaking purely about my own desires, the Void Elves would have been a good "compromise" if Umbric and his research group were high elf researchers from Dalaran, instead of blood elves from Silvermoon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  19. #14739
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    I feel that using your example isn't the best way to get your point across. If my child decided to throw a tantrum over a gift that someone (or myself) gave them, then I'd dispose of the gift and they'd learn a very harsh lesson in being grateful for what's given.
    Who said anything about tantrums? You say it's not the best way because of a reaction that, honestly, I haven't seen.

    To caricature the whole thing as if it's about unhappy kids with tantrums is why you didn't feel the point was not the best way to explain it.

    Literally, if the example was made with adult persons as characters of the story, you would have not implied that the disappointed character was having a tantrum over it. People tend to throw shit at kids like that, as if they were nothing else but little selfish demons with the sole purpose of bothering.

    The dev team knew about the High elves for more than a decade, and they came up with Void elves instead, it's literally the complete opposite of what was expected and the reason why it doesn't work. And we don't know the complete reasons for them to introduce that, but if such reason contained something as 'the blood elf model on the Alliance no matter what', then they would have missed the point even further than what we currently know.
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  20. #14740
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You know your kid is a huge fan of Spider-Man. He loves the shows. He loves the comics. He loves the toys. And he has been asking for a Spider-Man backpack for quie, quite some time. And, on his birthday, you show up with this backpack in hand. Yes, it's a gift, but it's either: a) a very mean-spirited gift, with the intention to 'troll' the kid; or b) a gift that shows the complete lack of understanding for what your kid has been asking for.
    Or, in some cases, maybe I couldn't afford what the kid wanted and got the best that I could, at my capacity. Again, has no bearing on Blizzard, but using this example specifically.

    High elves not being a playable race is not going to ruin the game for me. It would enhance the experience for me, if they were playable, but it won't ruin it for me if they're not. I'm content the way the game is, right now.
    The issue with this, is that the Blizzard we have now is not the blizzard from 15 years ago. What, I feel, a lot of people aren't understanding, or perhaps, unable to correlate, is that Blizzard is now a soulless, corporate entity with few fucks to give about the playerbase's opinion. They've become 'too big to fail', like so many corporations in different fields (Comcast, Disney, etc), and their current developers and writers have shown, over and over again in recent history, that they legitimately believe they know better than anyone else, period.

    So you have to view the High Elves as a monetary thing. If you (generalization) are willing to play the game regardless of if High Elves are added or not, Blizzard has no reason to care about allocating funds to get them developed -- try as anyone might to believe otherwise, it will take time and resources to properly develop them as an Allied Race (Unless you want copy and pasted bullshit with blue glowy eyes. Then, I feel, you're just bitching for the sake of bitching). If you can convince Blizzard that bringing High Elves into the game will, in fact, make them more money, then they'd likely be more interested in listening (look at the 'Classic' experience).

    On that note, I'll concede that the Void elves have been written horribly and could have done so much more in the ass-end of this expansion, given their ties, but instead we get fuck-all with Wrathion (who has major ties to the Old Gods, clearly) and Mr. WOOONS. As someone who's been writing fictional history/lore for various venues over the last 20 years, I can't help but to feel the current WoW Writers are absolutely shameful in their craft and need to step back for a while to recollect what it means to actually write (And I mean for more than the benjamins),


    Of course you don't. You don't have a "horse in the race", so to speak. And that's ok. You're completely within your right to enjoy the Void Elves. But many of us who wanted High Elves for the longest time can't help but not like the void elves for the fact of what they could have been. They could have been high elves, and almost nothing about the story would need to change. Umbric would still be the elf eager to show his worth to the Alliance. The void elves have zero weight in the story of this expansion. A story about Old Gods and the void.

    And speaking purely about my own desires, the Void Elves would have been a good "compromise" if Umbric and his research group were high elf researchers from Dalaran, instead of blood elves from Silvermoon.
    But who has a horse in the race? Purely people who want High Elves? I'd say I have just as much at stake because I want fucking good writing and lore. I want Blizzard to stop shitting the bed, piecemealing everything and making people who are actually interested in their world's history to get involved. I've been playing Warcraft games for a long time. I've never had 'attachments' to NPCs like some people have (Lets not rehash the 'Arthas incident'), and as such, I've been more than open minded and welcome to brand new lore, brand new characters and the like.

    If they make High Elves as an allied race, cool, do it, but make it only if it make sense. A lot of people feel Void Elves were hamfisted in, but since they're a new race, there's not much to go on yet, especially compared to races like the Dark Irons, Mag'har, and Zandalar. But the major storylines for the High Elves, as it is, happened back in WotLK. Would they make sense to be added in Shadowlands? Or a future expansion?

    I don't think any of the High Elf advocates would appreciate their (Allied) race being shoved into the game 'just because'.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

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