1. #14741
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    Okay, thank you for the tweet you provided.Now I'm ready to believe that the blizzard think the pandarens are some kind of mistake.

    But also in response, I will say that the employees of Blizzard (in particular Alex Afrasiabi) do not exclude that the appearance of high elves can be added for void elves. He said this to the lost Codex YouTube channel during BlizzCon 2018.

    Q: Any future customisation coming to void elves to bring them closer to the high elf fantasy?

    Response Alex Afrasiabi: Yes there's always a chance, don't give up hope, but just be respectful and you make your post.


    What do you think about it?
    It's been debated to death here already.

    The only reason I give credence to the possibility of high elf like skins on Void Elves is because he said here it was possible. Were it not for that I would entirely discount it given that the entire reason they gave Void Elves blue skins was to visually differentiate them from blood/high elves and to go back on that would seem ungodly stupid.

    Frankly the fact he pivoted to forum behaviour so quickly suggests to me that what the devs know of the high elf request is that it's a complete dumpster fire of a topic and that what they know of threads seems to be that they quickly devolve into never ending flame wars and that, to put it mildly, it was a request for decorum and for pro high elfers to nicely phrase their requests so that their CMs can great break.

    For me, the most telling thing is that before they considered the sub-race system fully, Ion Hazzikostas was the one who off handedly suggested high elves as a race they could add in that system. Once that system came out, you had Void Elves. In other words, once they sat down and thought things through, they realised they couldn't add a duplicate of an existing race to the game. Similarly, when they sit down and think through expanding Void Elf customization, I belive the same thought processes that led them to create Void Elves in the first place will ensure they don't turn Void Elves into ersatz high elves...or they'll result in some monkey paw result so you'd wished you never asked.

  2. #14742
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It's been debated to death here already.

    The only reason I give credence to the possibility of high elf like skins on Void Elves is because he said here it was possible. Were it not for that I would entirely discount it given that the entire reason they gave Void Elves blue skins was to visually differentiate them from blood/high elves and to go back on that would seem ungodly stupid.

    Frankly the fact he pivoted to forum behaviour so quickly suggests to me that what the devs know of the high elf request is that it's a complete dumpster fire of a topic and that what they know of threads seems to be that they quickly devolve into never ending flame wars and that, to put it mildly, it was a request for decorum and for pro high elfers to nicely phrase their requests so that their CMs can great break.

    For me, the most telling thing is that before they considered the sub-race system fully, Ion Hazzikostas was the one who off handedly suggested high elves as a race they could add in that system. Once that system came out, you had Void Elves. In other words, once they sat down and thought things through, they realised they couldn't add a duplicate of an existing race to the game. Similarly, when they sit down and think through expanding Void Elf customization, I belive the same thought processes that led them to create Void Elves in the first place will ensure they don't turn Void Elves into ersatz high elves...or they'll result in some monkey paw result so you'd wished you never asked.
    The second reason is simply to avoid having two races of Thalassian elves in the alliance so as not to make the horde cry ...

    So giving the high-elf option in customizing the void elves is a good solution for everyone after all.

  3. #14743
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    im saying is, just because they are the same race, they don't need to be the same thing.

    the race or specie in biology is the same, yes, but there are different subraces/subspecies or breeds within the same specie/race, sometimes those breeds and species/subraces are very different from each other.

    you could find lizards of the same specie totally different in color, marks patterns and even texture or size, those would be called subspecies, but they are the same and could breed between then.

    Same thing with Dogs, a lot of dogs are totally different from each other, like a pitbull and a chihuahua or other examples, they are the same specie, but NOT the same thing, hence, not the same breed.

    This example applies to the kul'tiran case, Kul'tirans humans and other humans are the same race, but not the same thing, they are different breeds of the same race, a normal human cannot became a kul'tiran with push-ups, a kul'tiran cannot become a human with a diet, those things are from birth, they being the same race they can breed with themselves.

    thats why using they as a factor in their pro agenda, like they are the same thing is completely bananas.

    Even more when we have the unconfirmed theory of those kul'tirans having drust blood, since they joined kul'tirans society, that would explain their half-giant size and strength and why just those humans can be druids and hear the call of the drust of old, but, the pro-side like to shut down this because it would hurt their narrative, its only permitted when help their side.
    Kul'tiran humans are humans pal, don't matter how much you want to sprinkle it

  4. #14744
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    plus those at the Kalimdor Brigade, Draenor Expedition, and the Highvale.
    The Kalimdor brigade was essentially annihilated since the vast majority of it's members ended up settling in Theramore Isle, which was obliterated by the mana bomb. There might be surviving High Elves, but they wouldn't be a population you could feasibly create a playable race from as they were basically non-combatants to begin with.

    The Draenor Expedition is presumed annihilated or captured by the Legion, or otherwise unknown, as they used a portal to escape Draenor and were caught by the Legion when they did so and haven't been heard from since aside from Turalyon and Alleria.

    Highvale, Quel'danil Lodge, is true but are mostly removed from the faction conflict and aren't really "Alliance forces" that would be drawn from in war and are just an Alliance aligned settlement in the Hinterlands.

    You're correct, these three groups would still be/ are friendly to the Alliance. I was only intending on mentioning a group that is friendly to the Alliance and also significant enough to plausibly be used as a source for a playable race. The three groups listed don't really fit that criteria.

  5. #14745
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    The second reason is simply to avoid having two races of Thalassian elves in the alliance so as not to make the horde cry ...

    So giving the high-elf option in customizing the void elves is a good solution for everyone after all.
    They've also stated that Allied Races are not the sub-race system, which we have evidence for as we see Kul Tirans, Zandalari, Nightborne, and Vulpera as examples of AR that are not a "sub-race" to any existing race for which faction they're on.

    Consequentially, the increased customizations coming in Shadowlands can be considered "sub-races" as that's what the conventionally accepted definition of sub-races was within the playerbase: extra customization to existing races so that one can play their "wildhammer dwarf" for instance within the Dwarf race.

    Thus, given that we're getting an actual sub-race system now, we may see Void Elves receiving those High Elf options once Allied Races get their turn in receiving increased customization options.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2020-03-23 at 05:00 PM.

  6. #14746
    Maybe they should just give Void Elves an option to purge their void corruption (maybe attach it to a small quest idk) to switch their appearance to resemble High Elves again. That way they wouldn't have to make a "new race" and could satisfy the players who want to play regular Alliance High Elves.

  7. #14747
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But they are high elves. They identify as such, and don't identify as blood elves.
    If the Lorthermar all of a sudden decreed that blood elves will now call themselves high elves again your argument would fall flat on its face.

    Blood elves did not become a new race when they changed their name. It was a simple decree in honor of their fallen. They never stopped being our high elves. Should they decree, they could rename themselves to high elves again.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  8. #14748
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Maybe they should just give Void Elves an option to purge their void corruption (maybe attach it to a small quest idk) to switch their appearance to resemble High Elves again. That way they wouldn't have to make a "new race" and could satisfy the players who want to play regular Alliance High Elves.
    Or they could even make it an "ascended" Void Elf type of deal, where they learn how to control their own void corruption levels like Alleria. But they would still be beneath her in control, as they wouldn't be able to enter Entropic Embrace on demand like she can (since it would happen randomly still).

  9. #14749
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    So giving the high-elf option in customizing the void elves is a good solution for everyone after all.
    That would A) make the void elves less "voidy", a theme of which the race is based on, and B) would only make them more like blood elves visually... which defeats the purpose of making void elves visually different in the first place.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  10. #14750
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Or they could even make it an "ascended" Void Elf type of deal, where they learn how to control their own void corruption levels like Alleria. But they would still be beneath her in control, as they wouldn't be able to enter Entropic Embrace on demand like she can (since it would happen randomly still).
    That's a pretty cool lore explanation for it.

  11. #14751
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    That would A) make the void elves less "voidy", a theme of which the race is based on, and B) would only make them more like blood elves visually... which defeats the purpose of making void elves visually different in the first place.
    Which is the conclusion I suspect the developers will rapidly arrive at once they sit down and try and hash out what new Void Elf customization will look like. Many of them may have deja vu in fact as they recall why they went with Void Elves over the exiles in the first place.

  12. #14752
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    If the Lorthermar all of a sudden decreed that blood elves will now call themselves high elves again your argument would fall flat on its face.
    IF that happens. It hasn't happened, and doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon. Until then, that's a meaningless statement to make, that makes it sounds like you're trying to have the last word.
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  13. #14753
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    If the Lorthermar all of a sudden decreed that blood elves will now call themselves high elves again your argument would fall flat on its face.

    Blood elves did not become a new race when they changed their name. It was a simple decree in honor of their fallen. They never stopped being our high elves. Should they decree, they could rename themselves to high elves again.
    What if, what if not...



    What if they announce High elves next expansion's patch.

    What if, what the fuck if.

    Please stay on point instead of staying on mediocre antagonism

  14. #14754
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    IF that happens. It hasn't happened, and doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon. Until then, that's a meaningless statement to make, that makes it sounds like you're trying to have the last word.
    You have constantly harped on that high elves are not playable because there is no race named "high elf" in the character creation screen. If blood elves were simply to decree that they will now call themselves high elves again, then there would be a "high elf" named race in the character selection screen all of a sudden...yet nothing would have changed about the race except their new name, they'd still be the same elves. So, when the game and the game directors define blood elves as OUR high elves, its a clear message that the high elf race is not defined by some small fractured group on the alliance but by the main high elven society who are allied with the Horde.

    Of course, this may be too nuanced for you to comprehend. Likewise for Aldo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Which is the conclusion I suspect the developers will rapidly arrive at once they sit down and try and hash out what new Void Elf customization will look like. Many of them may have deja vu in fact as they recall why they went with Void Elves over the exiles in the first place.
    Exactly. De-voiding void elves will only make them more like blood elves. Blizzard are highly unlikely to do that, given they made them different in the first place.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  15. #14755
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Exactly. De-voiding void elves will only make them more like blood elves. Blizzard are highly unlikely to do that, given they made them different in the first place.
    Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

    Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

    And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

    Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2020-03-25 at 05:50 AM.

  16. #14756
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    You have constantly harped on that high elves are not playable because there is no race named "high elf" in the character creation screen. If blood elves were simply to decree that they will now call themselves high elves again, then there would be a "high elf" named race in the character selection screen all of a sudden...yet nothing would have changed about the race except their new name, they'd still be the same elves. So, when the game and the game directors define blood elves as OUR high elves, its a clear message that the high elf race is not defined by some small fractured group on the alliance but by the main high elven society who are allied with the Horde.
    And it doesn't matter. Because nothing would change. The pro-high-elf players would still want to play as the high elf faction already existing within the Alliance, even if Blizzard decided to rename the blood elves "high elves". And there would still have a faction of high elves that is part of the Alliance. At worst, the pro-high-elf players would start calling them 'Silver Covenant' high elves.

    Of course, this may be too nuanced for you to comprehend. Likewise for Aldo.
    And, also of course, civil conversation may be too hard for you, if you must resort to veiled insults.
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  17. #14757
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

    Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

    And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

    Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.
    One glaring issue is that all of the above race customizations coming (trolls, dwarfs, etc...) don't make them look any closer to other races, yet alone looking more similar to races on the opposite faction. Giving "high elf" customizations to void elves would essentially make them closer to a blood elf. That's a big issue, and the main reason why it'd be highly unlikely that they ever do so.

    Apples to oranges.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And it doesn't matter. Because nothing would change. The pro-high-elf players would still want to play as the high elf faction already existing within the Alliance, even if Blizzard decided to rename the blood elves "high elves". And there would still have a faction of high elves that is part of the Alliance. At worst, the pro-high-elf players would start calling them 'Silver Covenant' high elves.
    If blood elves decreed that they're adopting the name "high elves" again, would you still say that high elves aren't playable? Or would you say that Alliance aligned high elves aren't playable?

    Remember, you are the one who disputes the statement made by Chris Metzen "blood elves ARE our high elves". You are the one who has stated multiple times "blood elves aren't high elves". Have a read of my above question again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And, also of course, civil conversation may be too hard for you, if you must resort to veiled insults.
    Both you and Aldo have resorted to veiled insults toward me and Obelisk several times over the last few pages. Don't see me reporting your posts, unlike you.
    Last edited by Strippling; 2020-03-25 at 08:39 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  18. #14758
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

    Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

    And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

    Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.
    Sometimes it seems as if the entire pro High Elf argument is predicated on drawing as many false equivalencies as possible, taking superficial similarities and disregarding the depths and nuance of each comparison, just to have something to argue with. That it falls apart under even the mildest interrogation is neither here or there, as the dismantling of the point and the demonstration as to why it is a false equivalence is simply ignored and the point restated in future. Having said that, the point still deserves to be interrogated and dismantled.

    You mention Trolls, drawing allusion to the new sand troll skin tones. You mention Dwarves, referring to the new Wildhammer Dwarf options they are receiving. You then define the Void Elf demand for high elf like skin tones within the same context and say that as it is reasonable these groups are getting these options, it is reasonable for Void Elves to get the skin tones they are requesting. This is the heart of your false equivalence because while the demand for high elf like skin tones on Void Elves does exist (though I would classify the use of the word unanimous as hyperbole)it is not akin to the other requests you list.

    Because what Trolls and Dwarves are getting are not currently available options. There is no Sand Troll race or Sand Troll playerbase who will object to the expansion of Troll customisation to encompass them. There are no Wildhammer Dwarf players who can object to Bronzebeard Dwarves getting access to their tattoos. These races are expanding into fresh territory as a result, entirely unclaimed. That is not what some Void Elf players are asking for.

    Void Elves, lest we forget, were conceived and implemented as a compromise on this matter, to give Alliance players access to the model and access to thalassian elves but without the themes and aesthetic that defines the core Horde race that is the Blood Elves. Several Allied races were implemented with their sole meaningful aesthetic difference being their unique skin tone range. The Void Elf skin tone range is the entire point, it's their critical aesthetic difference and it is reflective of their void theme.

    In practical terms, how would it work? What is a 'high elf skintone' anyway. We know what it is now, it's the range of skin tones from fair skins to flushed skins that Blood Elves. But Blood Elves are going first when it comes to increased character customization and I believe it was confirmed Blood Elves will be getting a few more skin tones to encompass the entire Human skin tone palette, which is something all races whose tones are from the human range will be getting. At the moment Blood Elves have ten skin tone options. That could easily increase to sixteen or seventeen as a result of these changes? Will Void Elves get access to all of these tones? That means Void Elves will have access to their unique, appropriate aesthetics as well as the Blood Elf aesthetic. That doesn't strike me as fair, to give one race access to the aesthetic of another race and vastly more options than the other race.

    Perhaps then Void Elves shouldn't have access to the sixteen or seventeen Blood Elf skin tone options. Then which ones do you pick? Do you only give Void Elves the fair skin tones which are clearly at the heart of this desire? And if you would be satisfied with only a few blood elf tones, would the Void Elf community be satisfied with only the new darker skin tones from the human range Blood Elves are going to get instead of the fair ones? It gets somewhat dicey the deeper you explore this rabbit hole doesn't it?

    Might be safest then to just give the Void Elves access to all Blood Elf skin tones then. You would render the actual void elf skin tones a minority and players being players, they would gravitate away from the aesthetic that actually represents the Void Elves towards looking, well, like Blood Elves. That would obliterate the aesthetic basis for Void Elves as a distinct grouping. It would ruin their fantasy because instead of Void Elves you'd have ersatz blood elves.

    I can't imagine discussing these problems with any other race of course, because no other race seeks to intrude into the aesthetic and thematic space of another so wantonly. Sand Trolls, Wildhammer Dwarves, false equivalences each. Interrogate your supposedly 'equivalent' Void Elf request and you find problem after problem, a gigantic can of worms I simply can't believe they would open.

    An actual equivalence would be Dark Iron Dwarf players asking for Bronzebeard skin tones, something which isn't happening because anyone who made that suggestion would be told to go and play an ordinary Dwarf. The reason this request gets any kind of oxygen at all is because the Blood Elves, the actual playable traditional high elves, happen to be on the other side of the faction wall. The faction wall they went out of their way to publicly defend at Blizzcon.

    Whatever customization Void Elves end up getting when allied races get their pass, I really doubt it's going to be what you want. At best, they'll lean into the Void Elf fantasy and double down on the void corruption angle rather than pulling back. At worst, they'll give you a monkey paw result such as the fair skin tone elves mottle dwith void energy mockups that we've seen posted a few times. But I would be very surprised if they allowed Void Elves to look like Blood Elves given the entire reason Void Elves exist as they do was so that they didn't have to give you high elves. And if you are predicating your faith that they will do so solely because you are asking it, then need i remind you that high elves were asked for as a sub-race for years and you didn't get it and for the same reason others (such as those seeking Mag'har) got what they wanted.

    That the option you want is currently available, it just happens to be on the other faction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Exactly. De-voiding void elves will only make them more like blood elves. Blizzard are highly unlikely to do that, given they made them different in the first place.
    As I detailed above, to simply sit and think about how it could be implemented leads to conclusion they are highly unlikely to do so for a multitude of reasons.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-25 at 11:32 AM.

  19. #14759
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    One glaring issue is that all of the above race customizations coming (trolls, dwarfs, etc...) don't make them look any closer to other races, yet alone looking more similar to races on the opposite faction. Giving "high elf" customizations to void elves would essentially make them closer to a blood elf. That's a big issue, and the main reason why it'd be highly unlikely that they ever do so.

    Apples to oranges.
    Not apples to oranges at all. Void Elves don't need to "look like other races" because they already do, just as a Dark Iron Dwarf looks like as much like a Bronzebeard already (aka same model, different fluff customization).

    The theme of increased customizations is that they're breaking the mold of the original aesthetics the race started with, that's what you're so ignorantly failing to understand. @Obelisk Kai is doing the same. Though his more obviously comes from a place of hard bias.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Sometimes it seems as if the entire pro High Elf argument is predicated on drawing as many false equivalencies as possible, taking superficial similarities and disregarding the depths and nuance of each comparison, just to have something to argue with. That it falls apart under even the mildest interrogation is neither here or there, as the dismantling of the point and the demonstration as to why it is a false equivalence is simply ignored and the point restated in future. Having said that, the point still deserves to be interrogated and dismantled.
    Funny you talk about disregarding depths/nuance and drawing false equivalencies and hyperbole as you do the same just within this entire post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    You mention Trolls, drawing allusion to the new sand troll skin tones. You mention Dwarves, referring to the new Wildhammer Dwarf options they are receiving. You then define the Void Elf demand for high elf like skin tones within the same context and say that as it is reasonable these groups are getting these options, it is reasonable for Void Elves to get the skin tones they are requesting. This is the heart of your false equivalence because while the demand for high elf like skin tones on Void Elves does exist (though I would classify the use of the word unanimous as hyperbole)it is not akin to the other requests you list.

    Because what Trolls and Dwarves are getting are not currently available options. There is no Sand Troll race or Sand Troll playerbase who will object to the expansion of Troll customisation to encompass them. There are no Wildhammer Dwarf players who can object to Bronzebeard Dwarves getting access to their tattoos. These races are expanding into fresh territory as a result, entirely unclaimed. That is not what some Void Elf players are asking for.
    What you're forgetting is I was talking about Black skin tones coming to Dwarves (not wildhammer) and therefore breaking the mold on a race of typically fair skin options, as well as Tan/Brown skin tones coming to break the mold on a race of typically blue skin options.

    It has nothing to do with "having an option that previously wasn't available". You seem to forget the whole point of increased customizations, which Ion stated flat out, is for characters to look and feel different from those of their same race option.

    A blue troll with red hair vs A blue troll with green hair is not the kind of difference he's talking about because we've already had that kind of customization difference for ages. They're showcasing much larger differences, along with a few subtle ones. Wildhammer Dwarf tattoos fall under suble. Having a straight up Black Dwarf isn't subtle at all. Same for Trolls, having a Tan/Brown Troll is vastly different from being just another Blue Darkspear Troll with different Tusk customization.

    We have seen from what they've already shown that skin color is a big factor for differentiation and follows what Ion says about "looking different" from those of your same race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Void Elves, lest we forget, were conceived and implemented as a compromise on this matter, to give Alliance players access to the model and access to thalassian elves but without the themes and aesthetic that defines the core Horde race that is the Blood Elves. Several Allied races were implemented with their sole meaningful aesthetic difference being their unique skin tone range. The Void Elf skin tone range is the entire point, it's their critical aesthetic difference and it is reflective of their void theme.
    Here you go again, essentially trying to say that Allied Races must stay in some box you conceived within your own mind without Blizzard having said so in regards to increased customizations.

    Increased customizations is a whole new ball game, and they have not denied increased customizations to Allied Races, nor Void Elves as a whole.

    It also doesn't matter what a race was conceived as, again I have already stated this multiple times. Darkspear Trolls, Undead, and Dwarves were conceived with specific aesthetics when they were released. Those aesthetics stayed the same for years, until Blizzard decided with increased customizations they're going to broaden those aesthetics.

    You are placing a limitation on Void Elves, one you've made up yourself with no backing in context of increased customizations, and it's already shown it does not apply to any race getting the new increased customizations.

    Anything you're trying to say without taking in the context of the increased customizations and the goal of that system is weak because the situation has changed. It would be like trying to argue against the ramifications of tmog when we already have tmog existing (aka trying to be a person who would say tmog shouldn't be a thing). You are trying to argue a specific race must keep their specific aesthetic as if increased customizations are not going to come to them.

    You can only argue this way if you actually believe increased customizations aren't going to hit Allied Races at some point after core races get their increased customization in Shadowlands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    In practical terms, how would it work? What is a 'high elf skintone' anyway. We know what it is now, it's the range of skin tones from fair skins to flushed skins that Blood Elves. But Blood Elves are going first when it comes to increased character customization and I believe it was confirmed Blood Elves will be getting a few more skin tones to encompass the entire Human skin tone palette, which is something all races whose tones are from the human range will be getting. At the moment Blood Elves have ten skin tone options. That could easily increase to sixteen or seventeen as a result of these changes? Will Void Elves get access to all of these tones? That means Void Elves will have access to their unique, appropriate aesthetics as well as the Blood Elf aesthetic. That doesn't strike me as fair, to give one race access to the aesthetic of another race and vastly more options than the other race.
    In practical terms, it works just like how Night Elves and Nightborne are both considered Purple Elves (by the game's definition, not by any random schmo on a forum) yet have incredibly different palettes for skin choices.

    Same thing for fair skin, there's enough variation to make them different from existing fair skin options, all you need to look at evidence for this is the existing races that have fair skin (Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Blood Elves) they are all different shades of what fair skin can look like. It isn't like Blizzard has run out of how to differentiate that.

    What Blood Elves get doesn't matter to the aesthetics of what Void Elves can/would get. Again, it's as simple as now Night Elf and Nightborne are very different in purple skin color aesthetic.

    The rest of this section was a bunch of un-nuanced hyperbole thinking too hard about how High Elf customization can be implemented onto Void Elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I can't imagine discussing these problems with any other race of course, because no other race seeks to intrude into the aesthetic and thematic space of another so wantonly. Sand Trolls, Wildhammer Dwarves, false equivalences each. Interrogate your supposedly 'equivalent' Void Elf request and you find problem after problem, a gigantic can of worms I simply can't believe they would open.
    It's not a problem. No one's going to object to adding more customization. Especially as you say, Blood Elves will get their customization first, thus they will have been served long before Void Elves have their opportunity brought up and thus none of the Blood Elf players should be complaining ("they left out customization to give to Void Elves!"), especially since nobody knows what the increased customization would look like for Void Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    An actual equivalence would be Dark Iron Dwarf players asking for Bronzebeard skin tones, something which isn't happening because anyone who made that suggestion would be told to go and play an ordinary Dwarf. The reason this request gets any kind of oxygen at all is because the Blood Elves, the actual playable traditional high elves, happen to be on the other side of the faction wall. The faction wall they went out of their way to publicly defend at Blizzcon.
    If you are trying to defend having faction pride, it defeats the purpose to then also say "if you wanna play X race go to [opposite] faction." Plus the equivalence isn't Dark Iron with Bronzebeard as both groups have immensely different customizations open to them on the same side, as you said.

    But again, this paragraph here misses the essence of what increased customizations are. They are there to make you look vastly different within one race option, you are again trying to bring in comparisons of other races as customization options for players to get their desired look, when the whole point of increased customizations is to increase variation within a race, and to vastly increase that variation.

    It is actually un-nuanced to keep trying to suggest another race to get one's kicks from as the addition of increased customizations is so a player doesn't have to play a different race to look vastly different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Whatever customization Void Elves end up getting when allied races get their pass, I really doubt it's going to be what you want. At best, they'll lean into the Void Elf fantasy and double down on the void corruption angle rather than pulling back. At worst, they'll give you a monkey paw result such as the fair skin tone elves mottle dwith void energy mockups that we've seen posted a few times. But I would be very surprised if they allowed Void Elves to look like Blood Elves given the entire reason Void Elves exist as they do was so that they didn't have to give you high elves. And if you are predicating your faith that they will do so solely because you are asking it, then need i remind you that high elves were asked for as a sub-race for years and you didn't get it and for the same reason others (such as those seeking Mag'har) got what they wanted.

    That the option you want is currently available, it just happens to be on the other faction.
    Need I remind you the purpose and intention of increased customizations? To look vastly different from others who picked your same race. These increased customizations are also what many players have been asking for years, including things like boneless undead, wildhammer tattoos, different ethnicities within humans, and if the rumor is true - dark skin for Blood Elves.

    Until you can wrap your head around the fact that increased customizations break the mold of the existing race aesthetic, then ofc you will continue to argue as you do - not taking into account a new feature that disregards "what a race's aesthetic was conceived with". Especially considering these options are being added on top, not requiring a new race slot or anything, they will just be more to all current race options.

    Saying "I really doubt it's what you want" doesn't mean much because you could say that for every race that hasn't been given a preview for what increased customization is coming. How do you know Night Elf fans will be getting "what they want"? How about Gnome fans? Orc fans? Goblin fans? Worgen fans? etc etc.

    It sounds like a last attempt at "you won't be happy anyway!" when we don't know what circumstances will look like in 2-3 years.

    Just like how I don't believe anyone thought we would be getting increased customizations feature after Allied Races system was unveiled. Blizzard continues their tradition of iterating on existing systems, as they always have, until they get it to where they want.

    It is obvious Allied Races had a lot of limitations over the increased customizations feature, being that if you wanted a different specific look you have to race-change and level up an entirely new character just to get that racial armor. Increased customizations skirts around all that, while also offering much more diversity in a race's aesthetic than we've ever seen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And not gonna get into back and forth over this @Obelisk Kai.

    Clearly we can summarize it to: There's people who think High Elf customization will come with Void Elf increased customization and there's people who think increased customization will not come to Void Elves and increased customization will not expand the aesthetics of Void Elves(this one clearly false).

    Nothing but time will show who ends up correct with their predictions.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2020-03-25 at 04:32 PM.

  20. #14760
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    If blood elves decreed that they're adopting the name "high elves" again, would you still say that high elves aren't playable? Or would you say that Alliance aligned high elves aren't playable?

    Remember, you are the one who disputes the statement made by Chris Metzen "blood elves ARE our high elves". You are the one who has stated multiple times "blood elves aren't high elves". Have a read of my above question again.
    The simple fact you need to ask this question (and repeat it) show that you either:
    • Don't understand (or don't care to) what people are really asking for;
    • Do understand what people are really asking for, but are just arguing for the sake of being a contrarian.

    You act like you have some kind of "gotcha!" question in your hands, but all it does is making you look foolish, because none of that addresses the fundamental issue here: a group of high elves that is part of the Alliance, and has been for some time, but is not playable yet.

    Names do not matter. When we say "blood elves are not high elves" is to combat this notion being perpetrated by those who are against high elves as a playable race that the high elves and blood elves are one and the same group, when they're not.

    Both you and Aldo have resorted to veiled insults toward me and Obelisk several times over the last few pages. Don't see me reporting your posts, unlike you.
    Except I haven't. At all. Unless you think "disagreeing with you" is a "veiled insult".
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