1. #14741
    They are Night Elves. Their island team literally carries "The Highborne" moniker which is what the upper class of Night Elf society called themselves. Highborne is a Night Elven societal term. All Nightborne all Highborne, thus all Nightborne are Night Elves.
    Nightborn can trace their roots to Night Elves to one society yes, but 10 000 years of isolated existence has made them a separate society. While one can argue that both of them can claim the name ”Night Elves”, they have in fact grown into two completely different societies and cultures, and even physique (due to night well exposure). Noone sees nightborn like the playable race that is called night elves, they emit a completely different feeling. High elves and blood elves are separated by 10 years with no significant differences whatsoever, especially now that the sunwell is restored. It’s the same race, same culture, different eye color.

  2. #14742
    Simple but good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinraye View Post
    Nightborn can trace their roots to Night Elves to one society yes, but 10 000 years of isolated existence has made them a separate society. While one can argue that both of them can claim the name ”Night Elves”, they have in fact grown into two completely different societies and cultures, and even physique (due to night well exposure). Noone sees nightborn like the playable race that is called night elves, they emit a completely different feeling. High elves and blood elves are separated by 10 years with no significant differences whatsoever, especially now that the sunwell is restored. It’s the same race, same culture, different eye color.
    Well, blood elves are Highborne too.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  3. #14743
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Calling it a bratty reaction is appropriate. If you gave a child a present that was very similar but not exactly what they wanted
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?

    Or if the kid asks for a Spider-Man backpack, but you come home with this, you still think he should "stop having a bratty reaction"?

    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves. Not to mention all the promises of "stories to tell" regarding the void elves that amount to nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  4. #14744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?

    Or if the kid asks for a Spider-Man backpack, but you come home with this, you still think he should "stop having a bratty reaction"?

    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves. Not to mention all the promises of "stories to tell" regarding the void elves that amount to nothing.
    I think the conclusion we can come to is that the WoW team's commentary for design decisions they implement into the game are whatever fits the bill at the moment.

    Ion was already shown to have said Zandalari won't get dinosaur forms outside of a travel form raptor, then Zandalari got them (due to player outcry obviously).

    Danuser just recently came out and said Sylvanas was written to be like Garrosh 2.0 intentionally, "but with nuance" aka don't kill her in the expansion she premieres as a villain. So they denying her being Garrosh 2.0 was a straight up lie too.

    With Patrick Dawson's comment on cross-faction for Ion's as another example of devs changing their mindset (just like Alex's response to High Elves vs Ion's), we can come to a conclusion based on the patterns above:

    The team will defend whatever decision they make for the game at present until they simply don't defend it anymore.

  5. #14745
    Just wanted to drop in MMO-Champion to officially put in my support for playable High Elves for the Alliance.

  6. #14746
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Danuser just recently came out and said Sylvanas was written to be like Garrosh 2.0 intentionally, "but with nuance" aka don't kill her in the expansion she premieres as a villain. So they denying her being Garrosh 2.0 was a straight up lie too.
    I am willing to bet good money that we'll be killing her in Shadowlands. Just like we killed Garrosh in Warlords of Draenor, The icing on the cake will be if we kill her during the leveling experience, like we did with Garrosh, but I figure the most likely scenario is that she'll be the "Gul'Dan/Azshara" of Shadowlands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  7. #14747
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?

    Or if the kid asks for a Spider-Man backpack, but you come home with this, you still think he should "stop having a bratty reaction"?

    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves. Not to mention all the promises of "stories to tell" regarding the void elves that amount to nothing.
    I feel that using your example isn't the best way to get your point across. If my child decided to throw a tantrum over a gift that someone (or myself) gave them, then I'd dispose of the gift and they'd learn a very harsh lesson in being grateful for what's given.

    Let me be clear, I am not saying you (as a generalization) should be grateful for Blood Elves or Void Elves, since that's clearly not what you're wanting. The analogy doesn't work the same way, because ultimately, if it was that big of an issue, you could speak with your wallets and cease giving Blizzard money until they take your concerns/ideas seriously. Since you're mostly adults capable of such things.

    Personally, I have nothing to lose or gain by the inclusion/exclusion of High Elves. I like my blood elf characters as much as I like my void elf characters. It's pre-established lore vs. new lore.

    A few little caveats though -- There are too many elves. This alone might diminish the possibility of High Elves getting added. Night Elves, Nightborne, High Elves, Void Elves. Two for each factions.

    But the people who want High Elves think that Void Elves are bullshit and shouldn't have ever been added. I, and I'm quite sure plenty of others, are perfectly happy with their 'Ren'dorei'.

    But people think the Nightborne are a pale comparison to what we saw in Legion. I, and I'm quite sure plenty of others, are perfectly happy with the models and all that jazz that went into the race. (My Combat Rogue looks boss as fuck, fight me.)

    Unfortunately, all the logic (from both sides of the coin) mean absolutely nothing if Blizzard doesn't intend to add any more Allied Races, and given the nature of the next expansion, I sincerely doubt any new ARs will be added (Four new factions to join, who're re/un-dead and have lived longer than most of the races on Azeroth given the lore that's been released).
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  8. #14748
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    I feel that using your example isn't the best way to get your point across. If my child decided to throw a tantrum over a gift that someone (or myself) gave them, then I'd dispose of the gift and they'd learn a very harsh lesson in being grateful for what's given.
    You know your kid is a huge fan of Spider-Man. He loves the shows. He loves the comics. He loves the toys. And he has been asking for a Spider-Man backpack for quie, quite some time. And, on his birthday, you show up with this backpack in hand. Yes, it's a gift, but it's either: a) a very mean-spirited gift, with the intention to 'troll' the kid; or b) a gift that shows the complete lack of understanding for what your kid has been asking for.

    Let me be clear, I am not saying you (as a generalization) should be grateful for Blood Elves or Void Elves, since that's clearly not what you're wanting. The analogy doesn't work the same way, because ultimately, if it was that big of an issue, you could speak with your wallets and cease giving Blizzard money until they take your concerns/ideas seriously. Since you're mostly adults capable of such things.
    High elves not being a playable race is not going to ruin the game for me. It would enhance the experience for me, if they were playable, but it won't ruin it for me if they're not. I'm content the way the game is, right now.

    But the people who want High Elves think that Void Elves are bullshit and shouldn't have ever been added. I, and I'm quite sure plenty of others, are perfectly happy with their 'Ren'dorei'.
    Of course you don't. You don't have a "horse in the race", so to speak. And that's ok. You're completely within your right to enjoy the Void Elves. But many of us who wanted High Elves for the longest time can't help but not like the void elves for the fact of what they could have been. They could have been high elves, and almost nothing about the story would need to change. Umbric would still be the elf eager to show his worth to the Alliance. The void elves have zero weight in the story of this expansion. A story about Old Gods and the void.

    And speaking purely about my own desires, the Void Elves would have been a good "compromise" if Umbric and his research group were high elf researchers from Dalaran, instead of blood elves from Silvermoon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  9. #14749
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    I feel that using your example isn't the best way to get your point across. If my child decided to throw a tantrum over a gift that someone (or myself) gave them, then I'd dispose of the gift and they'd learn a very harsh lesson in being grateful for what's given.
    Who said anything about tantrums? You say it's not the best way because of a reaction that, honestly, I haven't seen.

    To caricature the whole thing as if it's about unhappy kids with tantrums is why you didn't feel the point was not the best way to explain it.

    Literally, if the example was made with adult persons as characters of the story, you would have not implied that the disappointed character was having a tantrum over it. People tend to throw shit at kids like that, as if they were nothing else but little selfish demons with the sole purpose of bothering.

    The dev team knew about the High elves for more than a decade, and they came up with Void elves instead, it's literally the complete opposite of what was expected and the reason why it doesn't work. And we don't know the complete reasons for them to introduce that, but if such reason contained something as 'the blood elf model on the Alliance no matter what', then they would have missed the point even further than what we currently know.
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  10. #14750
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You know your kid is a huge fan of Spider-Man. He loves the shows. He loves the comics. He loves the toys. And he has been asking for a Spider-Man backpack for quie, quite some time. And, on his birthday, you show up with this backpack in hand. Yes, it's a gift, but it's either: a) a very mean-spirited gift, with the intention to 'troll' the kid; or b) a gift that shows the complete lack of understanding for what your kid has been asking for.
    Or, in some cases, maybe I couldn't afford what the kid wanted and got the best that I could, at my capacity. Again, has no bearing on Blizzard, but using this example specifically.

    High elves not being a playable race is not going to ruin the game for me. It would enhance the experience for me, if they were playable, but it won't ruin it for me if they're not. I'm content the way the game is, right now.
    The issue with this, is that the Blizzard we have now is not the blizzard from 15 years ago. What, I feel, a lot of people aren't understanding, or perhaps, unable to correlate, is that Blizzard is now a soulless, corporate entity with few fucks to give about the playerbase's opinion. They've become 'too big to fail', like so many corporations in different fields (Comcast, Disney, etc), and their current developers and writers have shown, over and over again in recent history, that they legitimately believe they know better than anyone else, period.

    So you have to view the High Elves as a monetary thing. If you (generalization) are willing to play the game regardless of if High Elves are added or not, Blizzard has no reason to care about allocating funds to get them developed -- try as anyone might to believe otherwise, it will take time and resources to properly develop them as an Allied Race (Unless you want copy and pasted bullshit with blue glowy eyes. Then, I feel, you're just bitching for the sake of bitching). If you can convince Blizzard that bringing High Elves into the game will, in fact, make them more money, then they'd likely be more interested in listening (look at the 'Classic' experience).

    On that note, I'll concede that the Void elves have been written horribly and could have done so much more in the ass-end of this expansion, given their ties, but instead we get fuck-all with Wrathion (who has major ties to the Old Gods, clearly) and Mr. WOOONS. As someone who's been writing fictional history/lore for various venues over the last 20 years, I can't help but to feel the current WoW Writers are absolutely shameful in their craft and need to step back for a while to recollect what it means to actually write (And I mean for more than the benjamins),


    Of course you don't. You don't have a "horse in the race", so to speak. And that's ok. You're completely within your right to enjoy the Void Elves. But many of us who wanted High Elves for the longest time can't help but not like the void elves for the fact of what they could have been. They could have been high elves, and almost nothing about the story would need to change. Umbric would still be the elf eager to show his worth to the Alliance. The void elves have zero weight in the story of this expansion. A story about Old Gods and the void.

    And speaking purely about my own desires, the Void Elves would have been a good "compromise" if Umbric and his research group were high elf researchers from Dalaran, instead of blood elves from Silvermoon.
    But who has a horse in the race? Purely people who want High Elves? I'd say I have just as much at stake because I want fucking good writing and lore. I want Blizzard to stop shitting the bed, piecemealing everything and making people who are actually interested in their world's history to get involved. I've been playing Warcraft games for a long time. I've never had 'attachments' to NPCs like some people have (Lets not rehash the 'Arthas incident'), and as such, I've been more than open minded and welcome to brand new lore, brand new characters and the like.

    If they make High Elves as an allied race, cool, do it, but make it only if it make sense. A lot of people feel Void Elves were hamfisted in, but since they're a new race, there's not much to go on yet, especially compared to races like the Dark Irons, Mag'har, and Zandalar. But the major storylines for the High Elves, as it is, happened back in WotLK. Would they make sense to be added in Shadowlands? Or a future expansion?

    I don't think any of the High Elf advocates would appreciate their (Allied) race being shoved into the game 'just because'.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  11. #14751
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    If they make High Elves as an allied race, cool, do it, but make it only if it make sense. A lot of people feel Void Elves were hamfisted in, but since they're a new race, there's not much to go on yet, especially compared to races like the Dark Irons, Mag'har, and Zandalar. But the major storylines for the High Elves, as it is, happened back in WotLK. Would they make sense to be added in Shadowlands? Or a future expansion?

    I don't think any of the High Elf advocates would appreciate their (Allied) race being shoved into the game 'just because'.
    I understand you but High elves have been part of the Alliance all this time, it's not like there has to be a big major theme for them to become 'recruited' since they already are.

    It's super similar to Dark Irons, Alliance members that weren't playable untill they introduced them in the character selection. And I could say the same about Mag'har but they decided to bring new ones from the alternate universe, but apart from that they were already part of the Horde too.
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  12. #14752
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Or, in some cases, maybe I couldn't afford what the kid wanted and got the best that I could, at my capacity. Again, has no bearing on Blizzard, but using this example specifically.
    Except Blizzard is a big company, with many resources, and no limits in regards to writing the lore and developing their game other than themselves. It translates to my example as you being wealthy enough to give him the exact backpack your kid has been asking for, as the price is basically pocket change to you.

    The issue with this, is that the Blizzard we have now is not the blizzard from 15 years ago.
    This has zero bearings on the situation.

    So you have to view the High Elves as a monetary thing. If you (generalization) are willing to play the game regardless of if High Elves are added or not, Blizzard has no reason to care about allocating funds to get them developed
    High elves even make sense from the "money-greedy soulless company" argument because, being a highly requested feature, it's very likely that it'll drive the sales of race changes and level boosts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  13. #14753
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure from G.I. Joe collection, but instead you give him a cheaper, much lower quality bootleg toy, do you really think that the kid should "stop having a bratty reaction" because you couldn't be arsed to look on a different isle at the store?
    Incorrect analogy. A more accurate analogy would be the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure with blue trimming on his shouldpad, and instead is given a Snake Eyes action figure with green trimming on his shoulderpad. The kids then proceeds to throw a tantrum because a Snake Eyes figurine with a green trimming shoulderpad is not the same character as a Snake Eyes figurine with a blue trimming shoulderpad. According to the child's definition, they are "different characters with vastly different cultures and political views". The parents (blizzard) sit there scratching their heads wandering why it's so difficult for the kid to see that the figurines are the same character (ie. same race).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And I say "couldn't be arsed" because that's how it feels the developers did with the void elves. They feel like a much lower quality, cheaper bootleg of the high elves.
    This is nothing but your personal opinion. An opinion that is clearly affected by a personal agenda.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  14. #14754
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Incorrect analogy. A more accurate analogy would be the kid has been asking for a Snake Eyes action figure with blue trimming on his shouldpad, and instead is given a Snake Eyes action figure with green trimming on his shoulderpad.
    No, that analogy fails because you're intentionally diminishing the gripe that those who want high elves have with the void elves. It also shows that you care little about understanding what the other side truly wants and what they truly feel, and just wants to argue for the sake of being contrarian.

    High elves aren't "just a minuscule palette difference" away from void elves. They're leaps and bounds apart in differences.

    Not to mention that:
    • Blizzard failed hard at introducing the void elves. They basically "poofed" into existence out of thin air, technically speaking. No introduction at all before becoming playable, unlike literally all the other allied races.
    • Blizzard failed hard at developing the void elves. All those promises about "stories to tell", given as one of the reasons for picking VE instead of HE, that amount to literally nothing.

    This is nothing but your personal opinion. An opinion that is clearly affected by a personal agenda.
    This is beyond ironic coming from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  15. #14755
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    I understand you but High elves have been part of the Alliance all this time, it's not like there has to be a big major theme for them to become 'recruited' since they already are.

    It's super similar to Dark Irons, Alliance members that weren't playable untill they introduced them in the character selection. And I could say the same about Mag'har but they decided to bring new ones from the alternate universe, but apart from that they were already part of the Horde too.
    One problem with alliance high elves is they don't really have a story of their own. The high elven story is really just continuing on through the blood elves. The alliance high elves are a small group who have assimilated into human societies, their identity has become diluted.

    Then we have the issue that there isn't a clear example of what it means to be an alliance high elf. We have the silver covenant who reside in Dalaran and have shown allegiance to the neutral Kirin Tor above any loyalty to the Alliance (as is evident in their being absent during this most recent faction war). We also see the Silver Covenant numbers in Dalaran reduced during Legion (with the removal of the Silver Enclave). The elves at the lodge seem to prefer a seclusive lifestyle and have offered relatively little support to the Alliance. Additionally, they don't seem to share any common goals or views with the Silver Covenant and we see pretty much no interaction between the two groups. We have a handful of high elves in Stormwind that don't seem be part of any "elven" community and have rather just assimilated into human society. Finally there's a handful of them in Outland but from NPC texts we know that many of these elves have no desire returning home with the Alliance.

    On top of all this, apart from the SC none of the above elves have been relevant to the story for years. And making them relevant all of a sudden would be no less "hamfisted" than void elves were.

    This leads on to the next issue. The SC are really the only alliance aligned high elves with any relevance to the story in the last 5 years or so. Now the SC pose a few issues of their own:

    1) they are a militia group of the Kirin Tor, not the Alliance. They have aided the Alliance in the past, but in BfA it is clearly indicated that they maintained a neutral position in this faction war. We know Khadgar (leader of the Kirin Tor) stated he would have no part in this war, and given the SC were practically absent in the war means that they as an organization honored the position of the Kirin Tor above aiding the Alliance.

    2) the majority of high elf fan art showcases high elves as being these "woodland elves with a celtic theme". Problem is, that is not the SC. They are a group who reside in a magical city, not the forests. The farstriders (who are a blood elven group) are the "woodland type" elf that high elf fan art seems to portray.

    So, to make alliance aligned high elves playable seems like a "hamfisted" option of its own. A) the only high elf group significant enough to be considered playable would be the SC. B) the high elf fan art depicting high elves as "woodland celtic elves" is not an accurate portrayal of the SC (who are the only group even remotely considerable). C) the high elf story continues through the blood elves. Adding alliance high elves would blur this story line that really should and does belong to the blood elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    High elves aren't "just a minuscule palette difference" away from void elves. They're leaps and bounds apart in differences.
    At the end of the day, high elves are not leaps and bounds apart in difference from blood elves... which is the issue at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not to mention that:
    • Blizzard failed hard at developing the void elves. All those promises about "stories to tell", given as one of the reasons for picking VE instead of HE, that amount to literally nothing.
    This is an exert from the summary blizzard gave us for the upcoming pre expansion Novel (Shadows Rising):

    “The Horde is nothing!” With those infamous words, Sylvanas Windrunner betrayed and abandoned the Horde she vowed to serve. The Dark Lady and her forces now work in the shadows as both the Horde and Alliance, including her own sister, Alleria, race to uncover her next move. Struggling to shoulder the crushing weight of leadership, King Anduin entrusts the void elf and High Exarch Turalyon to uncover Sylvanas’s whereabouts.

    Looks like Blizzard will continue to develop the void elves. Looks like this is another "story to tell".
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  16. #14756
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    One problem with alliance high elves is they don't really have a story of their own.
    Your lack of imagination (or lack of desire to use imagination) to come up with stories does not mean Blizzard cannot create new "stories of their own" for high elves. And just for clarification: what, exactly, do you mean by "stories of their own"?

    At the end of the day, high elves are not leaps and bounds apart in difference from blood elves... which is the issue at hand.
    And this post of yours, once again, proves how you're here just to argue for the sake of being a contrarian, considering the conversation you butted into was about high elves and void elves. But hey, why bother making sure you know what you're talking about when you have your daily quote of "being a contrarian" to fill, right?

    This is an exert from the summary blizzard gave us for the upcoming pre expansion Novel (Shadows Rising):

    “The Horde is nothing!” With those infamous words, Sylvanas Windrunner betrayed and abandoned the Horde she vowed to serve. The Dark Lady and her forces now work in the shadows as both the Horde and Alliance, including her own sister, Alleria, race to uncover her next move. Struggling to shoulder the crushing weight of leadership, King Anduin entrusts the void elf and High Exarch Turalyon to uncover Sylvanas’s whereabouts.

    Looks like Blizzard will continue to develop the void elves. Looks like this is another "story to tell".
    And, once again, you don't bother to really read what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd know that the name "void elf" refers to Alleria, and Alleria alone, since it's in singular.

    But, on the off-chance more void elves are involved in the story, I'm calling it now: we'll see the void elves doing nothing special, nothing that couldn't be done by other races, like the draenei, or humans, or dark iron dwarves, etc. There will be zero actual development for the void elves in that book, other than "they're there!" and a named character here and there that will expand in nothing the almost non-existent void elf lore.

    Just like Blizzard promised "stories to tell" with the void elves for BfA... which amounted to basically nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  17. #14757
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    I understand you but High elves have been part of the Alliance all this time, it's not like there has to be a big major theme for them to become 'recruited' since they already are.

    It's super similar to Dark Irons, Alliance members that weren't playable untill they introduced them in the character selection. And I could say the same about Mag'har but they decided to bring new ones from the alternate universe, but apart from that they were already part of the Horde too.
    There are distinct difference between the High Elves and the Dark Iron dwarves though. Correct me if i'm wrong or add something I'm missing.

    The Dark Iron dwarves have been a stable, sizable group since WoW's inception. Throughout most of the dwarven zones, we see some influence of their meddling and it only gets bigger and bigger the deeper into that zone-line you go, culminating in Blackrock Depths and Molten Core. It's not until later, when the storyline continues, that the Dark Irons (some, not all) join the Alliance under the Triumvirate of racial leaders (given we killed Thaurassan, it's Moira for the Dark Irons). We skip a few expansions (Burning Crusade and Lich King) before they really come into their own, both as allies and foes, given the nature of the Cataclysm expansion.

    There's a constant presence they provide in one way or another, and finally, in BfA, where the Dark Iron presence really manifests since it seems they're welcomed fully into the Alliance fold (thus giving us the Allied race).

    ----

    High Elves are seen very rarely, in counterpoint. Be it because the developers didn't know what to do with them, didn't care about them or somewhere inbetween. There's a few high elves scattered throughout all of the Classic Zones and they provide very little in the way of actual presence (Most are 1 or 2-shot quest givers). You'd think that since, according to Blizzard, the High Elves naturally evolved/bled into becoming Blood Elves, you'd possibly see more than a few in Burning Crusade, but instead we get a half-elf that makes an appearance in Hellfire and does little else save for cry into his mead (and subsequently isn't seen again until the end of the Legion expansion).

    And then Wrath of the Lich King happens and Blizzard seemingly gets off their duff and creates a faction, wholly comprised of High Elves on the Alliance side of things. The Silver Covenant. It's pretty cool, right?

    Their zone? Crystalsong Forest, a horrifically underused (yet thematically and visually awesome), as well as being the defacto faction for the Alliance in Dalaran. They do fuck-all otherwise. One flight path and, maybe if I'm remembering correctly, come into play for the last big patch/raid of WotLK.

    They play next to no roles anywhere else throughout the expansions (unlike the Dark Irons, as was the example). Hell, you can even say the Zandalar had more presence, despite the writing 'fuckery' that occurred between Classic-Zul'Gurub, Pandaria, and BfA. The Highmountain and Nightborne had entire zones (dungeons and raids) dedicated to them, with loads of lore. Mag'har has two chunks of lore (though they went with timey-wimey shenanigans instead). Lightforged Draenei had the entire Argus patch (which frankly, wasn't much), and then there's the Void Elves, who're absolutely 100% brand spanking new, having been created during the events of Argus.

    I can agree that High Elves got royally shafted, but it does feel that High Elves are on their way out, with most of their newer members being halfbloods (Sylvanas is just jealous she cant make hatebabies with Nathanos) and their culture being absorbed into human/alliance society.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  18. #14758
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The nightborne possess the same model (which minute differences), are also purple, and have the same animations. They also "take" a huge chunk of night elf lore. Hell, they even call themselves "highborne" and Suramar is the birth place of Tyrande.
    It's really weird, how you don't need to be in the Alliance to play as purple-skinned elves, but you absolutely need to be in the Horde to play as fair-skinned elves. I honestly can't understand Ion's logic here. Why couldn't Blizz just change their animation a bit, give them new hairstyles, tattoos. Maybe even make them a bit skinnier to reflect their magical withdrawal. And that's it.

  19. #14759
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    It's really weird, how you don't need to be in the Alliance to play as purple-skinned elves, but you absolutely need to be in the Horde to play as fair-skinned elves. I honestly can't understand Ion's logic here. Why couldn't Blizz just change their animation a bit, give them new hairstyles, tattoos. Maybe even make them a bit skinnier to reflect their magical withdrawal. And that's it.
    to be fair, literally the entire point of Allied Races is that, they are literally reskins
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  20. #14760
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Then there's your answer: make the high elves more distinguished from the blood elves. Hairstyles are apparently more than enough to satisfy the "different silhouette", and tattoos and other body markings can be added too.
    The different silhouette hasn't been argument since Pandaren. It is not a matter of slight differences, it is a matter of substance. High Elves and Blood Elves are identical. Void Elves are void mutants, possessing an entirely different theme and aesthetic to Blood Elves. Void Elves are a variant that can cross the faction line. High Elves, being identical, cannot do that. The measure of a difference that matters is one that is non replicable on a Blood Elf whilst still remaining a Blood Elf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. Blood elves are part of the Horde faction. Not high elves. High elves are part of the Alliance faction. I honestly cannot fathom how one can constantly go against objective information shown over and over again in the game and lore.
    At one point twenty years ago, all thalassian elves called themselves high elves. As a result of the 'last act of the high elves' as Lady Liadrin put it, their situation changed so enormously that Kael'thas renamed them Blood Elves in memory of those they had lost. Those who still clung to the term high elves following this point were not clinging to an ideologically agnostic term anymore, as the term Human is ideologically agnostic in encompassing Stormwind humans and Defias Brotherhood rebels and Lordaeron refugees. Instead, the term high elf became politicised, signifying a rejection of the realignment taking place in the thalassian elf homeland amongst the vast majority of their people. Blood Elves are high elves, but the term high elf is now different than what it was as before it was simply equivalent to thalassian elf, now it means those tiny few who refuse to move forward. Uncorrupted thalassian elves however are playable as a part of the Horde, that niche is fulfilled. The sole difference between Blood Elves and the exiles is their alignment, and to argue that high elves aren't playable is akin to arguing that humans are not playable because you cannot be a Defias Brotherhood human.

    You 'honestly cannot fathom' this problem because you keep insisting the high elven exiles are a distinct race when what they are is a minor political pressure group.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's amazing how you think you got a "gotcha" so hard you completely missed the point. Lore can be changed or expanded upon. Case in point: the high elves were just those of the Quel'lithien, but then the Wrath of the Lich King expansion came along and added a whole bunch of new high elves in Dalaran.
    The existence of a small group of high elves in Dalaran is unsurprising. Lorewise they have had long standing connections to the city and a few high elves did not follow Jaina, nor did they return to Silvermoon as the antecedents of the Sunreavers, but they remained in the city to assist the Kirin Tor. The Silver Covenant itself is primarily a hunter organisation modelled after the Farstriders and 'hunter-enough' to be added as a part of the Unseen Path during the Legion expansion. The origins for these individuals is also clear, summoned by Veressa to oppose the induction of Blood Elves into Dalaran. Nothing about their existence contradicts the canon statements that the exiles are a tiny group clinging to existence by their fingernails.
    It is also worth pointing out that Dalaran was the one area of the Eastern Kingdoms we couldn't explore in classic as it was sealed under a dome. The Eastern Kingdoms is now fully explored. There is no mysterious 'Greenwood' holding a hitherto unknown population of pro Alliance high elves who have sat out every conflict in the past decade and a half without explanation or discovery. The exiles are a known and declining quantity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it's not. You only call it "lazy" because you know you cannot honestly answer it and must use ad-hoc rationalization to avoid answering the argument while still making yourself look "superior" and "still 'winning'".
    I have answered it honestly. You reduce each time they did change their minds to the simple fact that they did so. You ignore the circumstances that led them to these about turns, which were in each case unique, simply to present the fact that they can change their minds as some kind of huge revelation. As I keep telling you, this is not a huge revelation. That they can change their minds is a given. But that on this topic they haven't and worse, they have doubled down on their rejection whenever given the opportunity, shows they are not on the same trajectory for an about face as the other examples you continually cite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The nightborne possess the same model (which minute differences), are also purple, and have the same animations. They also "take" a huge chunk of night elf lore. Hell, they even call themselves "highborne" and Suramar is the birth place of Tyrande.
    Nightborne possess a modified Night Elf model. Void Elves possess modified Blood Elf model.
    Nightborne have a unique colour palette when compared to Night Elves. Void Elves possess a unique colour palette when compared to Blood Elves.
    Nightborne and Void Elves are therefore equivalents in terms of difference and both are clear variants, not identical.


    Nightborne are representative of the Highborne fantasy in World of Warcraft, as they are magical, urban dwelling elves. While the Nightborne ARE Highborne, the Blood Elves are the heirs to the Highborne and they are also magical, urban dwelling elves.
    The Night Elves rejected the Highborne culture when they adopted a druidic, arboreal existence to become the Wood Elves of WoW, a lifestyle that is antithetical to the Highborne mode of existence.

    The vast, vast majority of the descendants of the Highborne serve the Horde and forms an iconic strand within that faction now alongside Orc, Tauren and the Trolls as well as a few others.. The 'Highborne' elven culture is the Horde elven culture. The vast majority of the elves who serve the Alliance are Night Elves, the 'wood elf' culture of WoW is the iconic culture of the Alliance, not the Highborne culture.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    A Void Elf must take in Void but that does not mean they must look pale/sickly blue/purple. Alleria is the example of this.
    And as has been pointed out to you multiple times, Alleria came by her powers in a unique fashion and is a hero character, subject to unique rules. The skin tones available to Void Elves are deliberate, designed to ensure there is thematic space between them and the Blood/high elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I do not think most care if they select "Void Elf" if we in fact get to look like Alleria. A being who took in Void, and is referred as Void Elf.
    Incorrect. Had they not cared about this, they would never have created Void Elves to begin with and would simply have introduced exiles as the Allied race. Ion spent a great deal of this response in 2018 pointing out that a Blood Elf and an exile are physically identical, hence the need for Void Elves to be their own thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Just as they write new explanations for how AR DK are made that conforms to previously established lore. They can very easily explain High Elf customization on Void Elves by saying "they took in Void in a different way similar but not same as to Alleria, a new refined approach of taking in Void."
    Whilst possible, we have no confirmation it is happening and it simply exists on a high elf fan wishlist. It also flies in the face of why they created Void Elves as they did in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Somehow you're trying to make it come off as some win by saying "you'll still be a Void Elf despite High Elf customization!" despite knowing that vast majority will not care, just as they do not care for Wildhammer Dwarves being shoehorned into Bronzebeards. They finally get to play the race they want on the faction they want.
    You will still be a Void Elf. This is not a question of winning or losing, merely a statement of fact. Anyone who does a /who on Pennem the void elf with high elf like customization is going to get a response listing Pennem as a Void Elf. A Void Elf with high elf like customization will not be a high elf, they will be a Void Elf.

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