1. #14761
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Then there's your answer: make the high elves more distinguished from the blood elves. Hairstyles are apparently more than enough to satisfy the "different silhouette", and tattoos and other body markings can be added too.
    The different silhouette hasn't been argument since Pandaren. It is not a matter of slight differences, it is a matter of substance. High Elves and Blood Elves are identical. Void Elves are void mutants, possessing an entirely different theme and aesthetic to Blood Elves. Void Elves are a variant that can cross the faction line. High Elves, being identical, cannot do that. The measure of a difference that matters is one that is non replicable on a Blood Elf whilst still remaining a Blood Elf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. Blood elves are part of the Horde faction. Not high elves. High elves are part of the Alliance faction. I honestly cannot fathom how one can constantly go against objective information shown over and over again in the game and lore.
    At one point twenty years ago, all thalassian elves called themselves high elves. As a result of the 'last act of the high elves' as Lady Liadrin put it, their situation changed so enormously that Kael'thas renamed them Blood Elves in memory of those they had lost. Those who still clung to the term high elves following this point were not clinging to an ideologically agnostic term anymore, as the term Human is ideologically agnostic in encompassing Stormwind humans and Defias Brotherhood rebels and Lordaeron refugees. Instead, the term high elf became politicised, signifying a rejection of the realignment taking place in the thalassian elf homeland amongst the vast majority of their people. Blood Elves are high elves, but the term high elf is now different than what it was as before it was simply equivalent to thalassian elf, now it means those tiny few who refuse to move forward. Uncorrupted thalassian elves however are playable as a part of the Horde, that niche is fulfilled. The sole difference between Blood Elves and the exiles is their alignment, and to argue that high elves aren't playable is akin to arguing that humans are not playable because you cannot be a Defias Brotherhood human.

    You 'honestly cannot fathom' this problem because you keep insisting the high elven exiles are a distinct race when what they are is a minor political pressure group.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's amazing how you think you got a "gotcha" so hard you completely missed the point. Lore can be changed or expanded upon. Case in point: the high elves were just those of the Quel'lithien, but then the Wrath of the Lich King expansion came along and added a whole bunch of new high elves in Dalaran.
    The existence of a small group of high elves in Dalaran is unsurprising. Lorewise they have had long standing connections to the city and a few high elves did not follow Jaina, nor did they return to Silvermoon as the antecedents of the Sunreavers, but they remained in the city to assist the Kirin Tor. The Silver Covenant itself is primarily a hunter organisation modelled after the Farstriders and 'hunter-enough' to be added as a part of the Unseen Path during the Legion expansion. The origins for these individuals is also clear, summoned by Veressa to oppose the induction of Blood Elves into Dalaran. Nothing about their existence contradicts the canon statements that the exiles are a tiny group clinging to existence by their fingernails.
    It is also worth pointing out that Dalaran was the one area of the Eastern Kingdoms we couldn't explore in classic as it was sealed under a dome. The Eastern Kingdoms is now fully explored. There is no mysterious 'Greenwood' holding a hitherto unknown population of pro Alliance high elves who have sat out every conflict in the past decade and a half without explanation or discovery. The exiles are a known and declining quantity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it's not. You only call it "lazy" because you know you cannot honestly answer it and must use ad-hoc rationalization to avoid answering the argument while still making yourself look "superior" and "still 'winning'".
    I have answered it honestly. You reduce each time they did change their minds to the simple fact that they did so. You ignore the circumstances that led them to these about turns, which were in each case unique, simply to present the fact that they can change their minds as some kind of huge revelation. As I keep telling you, this is not a huge revelation. That they can change their minds is a given. But that on this topic they haven't and worse, they have doubled down on their rejection whenever given the opportunity, shows they are not on the same trajectory for an about face as the other examples you continually cite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The nightborne possess the same model (which minute differences), are also purple, and have the same animations. They also "take" a huge chunk of night elf lore. Hell, they even call themselves "highborne" and Suramar is the birth place of Tyrande.
    Nightborne possess a modified Night Elf model. Void Elves possess modified Blood Elf model.
    Nightborne have a unique colour palette when compared to Night Elves. Void Elves possess a unique colour palette when compared to Blood Elves.
    Nightborne and Void Elves are therefore equivalents in terms of difference and both are clear variants, not identical.


    Nightborne are representative of the Highborne fantasy in World of Warcraft, as they are magical, urban dwelling elves. While the Nightborne ARE Highborne, the Blood Elves are the heirs to the Highborne and they are also magical, urban dwelling elves.
    The Night Elves rejected the Highborne culture when they adopted a druidic, arboreal existence to become the Wood Elves of WoW, a lifestyle that is antithetical to the Highborne mode of existence.

    The vast, vast majority of the descendants of the Highborne serve the Horde and forms an iconic strand within that faction now alongside Orc, Tauren and the Trolls as well as a few others.. The 'Highborne' elven culture is the Horde elven culture. The vast majority of the elves who serve the Alliance are Night Elves, the 'wood elf' culture of WoW is the iconic culture of the Alliance, not the Highborne culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    A Void Elf must take in Void but that does not mean they must look pale/sickly blue/purple. Alleria is the example of this.
    And as has been pointed out to you multiple times, Alleria came by her powers in a unique fashion and is a hero character, subject to unique rules. The skin tones available to Void Elves are deliberate, designed to ensure there is thematic space between them and the Blood/high elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I do not think most care if they select "Void Elf" if we in fact get to look like Alleria. A being who took in Void, and is referred as Void Elf.
    Incorrect. Had they not cared about this, they would never have created Void Elves to begin with and would simply have introduced exiles as the Allied race. Ion spent a great deal of this response in 2018 pointing out that a Blood Elf and an exile are physically identical, hence the need for Void Elves to be their own thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Just as they write new explanations for how AR DK are made that conforms to previously established lore. They can very easily explain High Elf customization on Void Elves by saying "they took in Void in a different way similar but not same as to Alleria, a new refined approach of taking in Void."
    Whilst possible, we have no confirmation it is happening and it simply exists on a high elf fan wishlist. It also flies in the face of why they created Void Elves as they did in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Somehow you're trying to make it come off as some win by saying "you'll still be a Void Elf despite High Elf customization!" despite knowing that vast majority will not care, just as they do not care for Wildhammer Dwarves being shoehorned into Bronzebeards. They finally get to play the race they want on the faction they want.
    You will still be a Void Elf. This is not a question of winning or losing, merely a statement of fact. Anyone who does a /who on Pennem the void elf with high elf like customization is going to get a response listing Pennem as a Void Elf. A Void Elf with high elf like customization will not be a high elf, they will be a Void Elf.

  2. #14762
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The different silhouette hasn't been argument since Pandaren.
    Really? Because the whole "you lot just want the blood elf model in the Alliance!" seems to indicate otherwise.

    High Elves and Blood Elves are identical.
    Wrong. They have differences in both culture and politics.

    At one point twenty years ago, all thalassian elves called themselves high elves.
    And at one point further in the past, all thalassian elves called themselves highborne too.

    You 'honestly cannot fathom' this problem because you keep insisting the high elven exiles are a distinct race
    I never argued them to be an actual different race. The only time I referred to them as a "separate race" was when I used the gameplay definition of "playable race".

    You're starting to show your true colors: that you don't care for what the opposition is writing and just want to argue for the sake of being a contrarian.

    I have answered it honestly.
    Your responses to this, especially in the quote above, beg to differ.

    Nightborne possess a modified Night Elf model. Void Elves possess modified Blood Elf model.
    Minute modifications.
    Nightborne have a unique colour palette when compared to Night Elves. Void Elves possess a unique colour palette when compared to Blood Elves.
    Nightborne are purple. Night elves are purple. One of them being a slightly darker or lighter shade of purple is irrelevant.
    Nightborne and Void Elves are therefore equivalents in terms of difference and both are clear variants, not identical.
    Give unique hairstyles and/or tattoos to high elves. Boom. Problem more than solved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  3. #14763
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And as has been pointed out to you multiple times, Alleria came by her powers in a unique fashion and is a hero character, subject to unique rules. The skin tones available to Void Elves are deliberate, designed to ensure there is thematic space between them and the Blood/high elves.
    What available customization a race releases with is no longer set in stone: look to Shadowlands increased customizations for this. Again, it doesn't need confirmation that they will do the same to Allied Races, they will.

    They were already being questioned about it when they revealed the customizations for non-AR. Their answers were "only non-AR at this time" and not "No the AR have a specific vision we want to keep therefore their aesthetics will not be as diverse as what's coming for non-AR in Shadowlands."

    You're essentially trying to capitalize on them not prioritizing AR yet and assuming they will not touch AR ever when they've already answered questions that do not reach one to that conclusion. You're basically going, "the new level cap is going 60 and the developers have not shown any signs of increasing the cap further that's why it's going to be 60 in Shadowlands" completely ignoring patterns that they've established in the past simply because "there is no sign of it yet."

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Incorrect. Had they not cared about this, they would never have created Void Elves to begin with and would simply have introduced exiles as the Allied race. Ion spent a great deal of this response in 2018 pointing out that a Blood Elf and an exile are physically identical, hence the need for Void Elves to be their own thing.
    When I say most I mean from player's POV. Players are not against getting increased customization. The proof lies in nobody in the playerbase ever telling Blizzard to "stop adding more customization please, this does not fit with previously established lore." Everyone has been asking for more customizations for a very long time, and Allied Races have their own section of fans that want more customizations as well. Lore is not priority to these people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Whilst possible, we have no confirmation it is happening and it simply exists on a high elf fan wishlist. It also flies in the face of why they created Void Elves as they did in the first place.
    Look at what I said above, just because it hasn't been "confirmed" does not mean there's not a body of precedent set from the past. Every increased customization coming to non-AR races was a "wishlist" before it happened, and a lot of those customizations "flies in the face of why they created X race as they did in the first place."

    Darkspears are an easy example, no longer will they have to be forced to be a blue troll for skin colors, it's being as drastic as tan/brown/pale. No one's going around saying "it doesn't make sense that Darkspear Trolls are getting different non-blue skin tones as that flies in the face of why they created Darkspear trolls in the first place."

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    You will still be a Void Elf. This is not a question of winning or losing, merely a statement of fact. Anyone who does a /who on Pennem the void elf with high elf like customization is going to get a response listing Pennem as a Void Elf. A Void Elf with high elf like customization will not be a high elf, they will be a Void Elf.
    And as stated previously, most players will not care. Just like there are those that roleplay their Blood Elf as non-Blood Elf High Elves (aka they aren't Sin'dorei in any way) despite choosing that race option in character select. There were those who played their "Mag'har Orc" as the most yellow / brown skin option available to Green Orcs.

    These people are not denying reality, they are simply canonizing their own character in their own way, as that kind of RP has been giving its blessing by WoW creators such as Danuser.

    You keep trying to latch onto "but you'll still be a void elf!" as if that means as much as people being able to make their character look how they want. It's a fact, but not one with a lot of meaning in the grand scheme of it all.

  4. #14764
    There are fewer differences between pandarens than between high elves and blood elves, but pandarens are playable for both factions. And against this background the arguments about identity look a bit silly. Understand this at last...

  5. #14765
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    There are distinct difference between the High Elves and the Dark Iron dwarves though. Correct me if i'm wrong or add something I'm missing.

    The Dark Iron dwarves have been a stable, sizable group since WoW's inception. Throughout most of the dwarven zones, we see some influence of their meddling and it only gets bigger and bigger the deeper into that zone-line you go, culminating in Blackrock Depths and Molten Core. It's not until later, when the storyline continues, that the Dark Irons (some, not all) join the Alliance under the Triumvirate of racial leaders (given we killed Thaurassan, it's Moira for the Dark Irons). We skip a few expansions (Burning Crusade and Lich King) before they really come into their own, both as allies and foes, given the nature of the Cataclysm expansion.

    There's a constant presence they provide in one way or another, and finally, in BfA, where the Dark Iron presence really manifests since it seems they're welcomed fully into the Alliance fold (thus giving us the Allied race).

    ----

    High Elves are seen very rarely, in counterpoint. Be it because the developers didn't know what to do with them, didn't care about them or somewhere inbetween. There's a few high elves scattered throughout all of the Classic Zones and they provide very little in the way of actual presence (Most are 1 or 2-shot quest givers). You'd think that since, according to Blizzard, the High Elves naturally evolved/bled into becoming Blood Elves, you'd possibly see more than a few in Burning Crusade, but instead we get a half-elf that makes an appearance in Hellfire and does little else save for cry into his mead (and subsequently isn't seen again until the end of the Legion expansion).

    And then Wrath of the Lich King happens and Blizzard seemingly gets off their duff and creates a faction, wholly comprised of High Elves on the Alliance side of things. The Silver Covenant. It's pretty cool, right?

    Their zone? Crystalsong Forest, a horrifically underused (yet thematically and visually awesome), as well as being the defacto faction for the Alliance in Dalaran. They do fuck-all otherwise. One flight path and, maybe if I'm remembering correctly, come into play for the last big patch/raid of WotLK.

    They play next to no roles anywhere else throughout the expansions (unlike the Dark Irons, as was the example). Hell, you can even say the Zandalar had more presence, despite the writing 'fuckery' that occurred between Classic-Zul'Gurub, Pandaria, and BfA. The Highmountain and Nightborne had entire zones (dungeons and raids) dedicated to them, with loads of lore. Mag'har has two chunks of lore (though they went with timey-wimey shenanigans instead). Lightforged Draenei had the entire Argus patch (which frankly, wasn't much), and then there's the Void Elves, who're absolutely 100% brand spanking new, having been created during the events of Argus.

    I can agree that High Elves got royally shafted, but it does feel that High Elves are on their way out, with most of their newer members being halfbloods (Sylvanas is just jealous she cant make hatebabies with Nathanos) and their culture being absorbed into human/alliance society.
    Yeah, it's kinda like that, but your point is merely an extension of the population argument, that have been proven null in all things considered.

    So yeah, if you diverge into more things then you can see more and more differences, but don't forget that my point was that, just like Dark Irons, High elves are an unplayable part of the Alliance, and Dark Irons aren't anymore.

    What people ask for is for something that exists in the Alliance to become playable, nothing more, nothing less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    One problem with alliance high elves is they don't really have a story of their own. The high elven story is really just continuing on through the blood elves. The alliance high elves are a small group who have assimilated into human societies, their identity has become diluted.

    Then we have the issue that there isn't a clear example of what it means to be an alliance high elf. We have the silver covenant who reside in Dalaran and have shown allegiance to the neutral Kirin Tor above any loyalty to the Alliance (as is evident in their being absent during this most recent faction war). We also see the Silver Covenant numbers in Dalaran reduced during Legion (with the removal of the Silver Enclave). The elves at the lodge seem to prefer a seclusive lifestyle and have offered relatively little support to the Alliance. Additionally, they don't seem to share any common goals or views with the Silver Covenant and we see pretty much no interaction between the two groups. We have a handful of high elves in Stormwind that don't seem be part of any "elven" community and have rather just assimilated into human society. Finally there's a handful of them in Outland but from NPC texts we know that many of these elves have no desire returning home with the Alliance.

    On top of all this, apart from the SC none of the above elves have been relevant to the story for years. And making them relevant all of a sudden would be no less "hamfisted" than void elves were.

    This leads on to the next issue. The SC are really the only alliance aligned high elves with any relevance to the story in the last 5 years or so. Now the SC pose a few issues of their own:

    1) they are a militia group of the Kirin Tor, not the Alliance. They have aided the Alliance in the past, but in BfA it is clearly indicated that they maintained a neutral position in this faction war. We know Khadgar (leader of the Kirin Tor) stated he would have no part in this war, and given the SC were practically absent in the war means that they as an organization honored the position of the Kirin Tor above aiding the Alliance.

    2) the majority of high elf fan art showcases high elves as being these "woodland elves with a celtic theme". Problem is, that is not the SC. They are a group who reside in a magical city, not the forests. The farstriders (who are a blood elven group) are the "woodland type" elf that high elf fan art seems to portray.

    So, to make alliance aligned high elves playable seems like a "hamfisted" option of its own. A) the only high elf group significant enough to be considered playable would be the SC. B) the high elf fan art depicting high elves as "woodland celtic elves" is not an accurate portrayal of the SC (who are the only group even remotely considerable). C) the high elf story continues through the blood elves. Adding alliance high elves would blur this story line that really should and does belong to the blood elves.
    And this isn't an agenda that diminishes your critical thinking, right.

    High elves are Alliance, end of story, dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    There are fewer differences between pandarens than between high elves and blood elves, but pandarens are playable for both factions. And against this background the arguments about identity look a bit silly. Understand this at last...
    I literally repeated this like fifty times in this thread, that Pandaren have an absolute amount of 0 (Zero) differences between both factions, and that High elves would have, in the very least, an absolute minimum of visual difference between them and Blood elves.

    But hey, by not listening, they just prove to be putting fingers in their ears. The conversation has become two different universes with two different realities telling the other what is true and what is not.

    Seems like some people are trying really hard to gatekeep, isn't it?
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  6. #14766
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    High elves are Alliance, end of story, dude.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

    If you want to play a pale skinned, blonde elf the Horde is waiting for you - Ion Hazzikostas

    Blood elves are the continuation of the high elf story - WoW

    End of story, bud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And, once again, you don't bother to really read what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd know that the name "void elf" refers to Alleria, and Alleria alone, since it's in singular.
    You do realize that on many occasions a races story is progressed via one of their key characters? If Alleria is involved it means we have void elven representation. Likewise, if Alleria is involved it means that void elves will likely be relevant to some degree in Shadowlands and future expansions. Some ARs have had the main part of their story told through a zone, others have been present over the course of many expansions. You're quick to conclude that this won't be the case... and all I'm merely pointing out is that we see Alleria will be relevant (to what degree we don't know yet) in the upcoming expansion, which means there's a good chance her people will too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But, on the off-chance more void elves are involved in the story, I'm calling it now: we'll see the void elves doing nothing special, nothing that couldn't be done by other races, like the draenei, or humans, or dark iron dwarves, etc. There will be zero actual development for the void elves in that book, other than "they're there!" and a named character here and there that will expand in nothing the almost non-existent void elf lore.
    Replace the word "void elf" with "high elf" in the above paragraph and see how silly you sound.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  7. #14767
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    You do realize that on many occasions a races story is progressed via one of their key characters? If Alleria is involved it means we have void elven representation.
    I don't care one single bit for "representation" if it all boils down to "she's there". I want to see actual lore being developed. And Alleria being involved does not guarantee the void elf lore will be expanded, considering it's much more likely that it's Alleria's own lore that will be expanded/explored in the book, by exploring her relationship and feelings toward her villainous sister.

    Replace the word "void elf" with "high elf" in the above paragraph and see how silly you sound.
    So you have no argument at all?
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-03-17 at 11:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  8. #14768
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    I literally repeated this like fifty times in this thread, that Pandaren have an absolute amount of 0 (Zero) differences between both factions, and that High elves would have, in the very least, an absolute minimum of visual difference between them and Blood elves.

    But hey, by not listening, they just prove to be putting fingers in their ears. The conversation has become two different universes with two different realities telling the other what is true and what is not.

    Seems like some people are trying really hard to gatekeep, isn't it?
    The funny thing is that few of the anti-helfers mention Shamans in the Alliance and paladins in the Horde, who have no less influence on the identity of the factions than the elves.

  9. #14769
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

    If you want to play a pale skinned, blonde elf the Horde is waiting for you - Ion Hazzikostas

    Blood elves are the continuation of the high elf story - WoW

    End of story, bud.
    Pay attention, please: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52165801

    Even without that, it's stupid to think it means what you think it means, since High elves aren't Blood elves, and both groups aren't unified, or the same, or share faction and boundaries. It's an statement that you thought it meant something that matched your ideology within this topic, it's the live example of a tortured judgement.

    I'm not creating new posts to repeat things, I, and many others, have explained this to you in this same thread a thousand times, pay attention.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2020-03-17 at 02:36 PM.
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  10. #14770
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Pay attention, please: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52165801

    Even without that, it's stupid to think it means what you think it means, since High elves aren't Blood elves, and both groups aren't unified, or the same, or share faction and boundaries. It's an statement that you thought it meant something that matched your ideology within this topic, it's the live example of a tortured judgement.

    I'm not creating new posts to repeat things, I, and many others, have explained this to you in this same thread a thousand times, pay attention.
    It's rather that Blood Elves are High Elves, and your "High Elves" are dissidents from the same group who refuse to use the new racial name.

  11. #14771
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    It's rather that Blood Elves are High Elves, and your "High Elves" are dissidents from the same group who refuse to use the new racial name.
    And?

    Literally, your point?
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  12. #14772
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    And?

    Literally, your point?
    The point being that just because you define high elves as "Alliance aligned blue eyed thalassians" doesn't alter the reality that "blood elves are our high elves" as defined by the creator of the WoW universe. Alliance aligned high elves do not define what it means to be "high elven", the blood elves do. So when Ion said they do not want to blur faction lines it was because A) the two groups are physically the same, B) the two groups share the same history, and C) the high elf race is already represented by the blood elves. Giving that playable aesthetic and thematic to the Alliance blurs the faction lines, which only harms one of the integral pillars of WoW. You may personally not care about "blurring faction lines" but me, many others and blizzard themselves do so.

    You can't be reasoned with. All you care about is getting your pale skin elf on the Alliance at whatever cost to the game it may be. You have shown time and time again (along with many other "pro's" in this thread) that no reason is appropriate enough to deny alliance high elves... even if it comes at the expense of race uniqueness, faction identity, faction distinction, lore, player experience, etc... you simply don't care and find any excuse to make a wrong decision appear to be right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't care one single bit for "representation" if it all boils down to "she's there". I want to see actual lore being developed. And Alleria being involved does not guarantee the void elf lore will be expanded, considering it's much more likely that it's Alleria's own lore that will be expanded/explored in the book, by exploring her relationship and feelings toward villainous sister.
    Define for me what "actual lore" is please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So you have no argument at all?
    My argument, that there's nothing high elves could do that void elves or any other playable alliance race can't do. High elves have no role to fill within the Alliance, and their absence in the 4th fourth along with the inclusion of void elves is evidence of this.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  13. #14773
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The point being that just because you define high elves as "Alliance aligned blue eyed thalassians" doesn't alter the reality that "blood elves are our high elves" as defined by the creator of the WoW universe.
    "We" are not defining anything. The game and its lore are defining it. High elves are a separate group of thalassian elves, independent from the blood elves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Define to me what "actual lore" is please?
    I think you know pretty well, but are just trying to be cute. "Actual lore", in this context, is void elf lore.

    As explained, Alleria's presence does not necessarily mean that the void elf lore will be expanded. Considering the theme of the book and the overall narrative, it's much more likely that Alleria's personal lore will be explored, regarding her connections with Sylvanas. And Alleria's personal lore is not void elf lore.

    My argument, that there's nothing high elves could do that void elves or any other playable alliance race can't do.
    Which is, simply put, irrelevant. Because the high elves have existed since before WoW, and have been part of the Alliance since then, and yet it was the void elves that got the ticket... and have shown to be nothing special at all, despite all the promises of "stories to tell" that amounted to absolutely nothing.

    If the void elves could do something the high elves cannot, or had any kind of story to tell that the high elves couldn't, it'd be fine to justify their existence. But they don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  14. #14774
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Snop.
    You have literally evaded my post directed to you where I refused to repeat the reasons why your point is ridiculous and ill informed, and provided a link to the post where I previously explained to you.

    Just to answer to a post that was not directed to you, repeating the same ignorant arguments that I have already taken down.

    Please, inform yourself about that phrase that doesn't mean what you think it means.
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  15. #14775
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The point being that just because you define high elves as "Alliance aligned blue eyed thalassians" doesn't alter the reality that "blood elves are our high elves" as defined by the creator of the WoW universe. Alliance aligned high elves do not define what it means to be "high elven", the blood elves do. So when Ion said they do not want to blur faction lines it was because A) the two groups are physically the same, B) the two groups share the same history, and C) the high elf race is already represented by the blood elves. Giving that playable aesthetic and thematic to the Alliance blurs the faction lines, which only harms one of the integral pillars of WoW. You may personally not care about "blurring faction lines" but me, many others and blizzard themselves do so.

    You can't be reasoned with. All you care about is getting your pale skin elf on the Alliance at whatever cost to the game it may be. You have shown time and time again (along with many other "pro's" in this thread) that no reason is appropriate enough to deny alliance high elves... even if it comes at the expense of race uniqueness, faction identity, faction distinction, lore, player experience, etc... you simply don't care and find any excuse to make a wrong decision appear to be right.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Define for me what "actual lore" is please?



    My argument, that there's nothing high elves could do that void elves or any other playable alliance race can't do. High elves have no role to fill within the Alliance, and their absence in the 4th fourth along with the inclusion of void elves is evidence of this.
    All this "race uniqueness faction identity" you're being excessively dramatic about would only apply if the high elves weren't alliance in the first place.
    That's the main issue with your argument, you're talking as if the high elves aren't already alliance.

    What YOU personally interpret the high elves' role to be is completely irrelevant.
    In game and in lore shows us that they're alliance alligned.
    Void elves and blood elves existing does not mean everyone has to stfu and disregard high elves.
    The blood elf story will continue
    The high elf story will continue

    Just like no one would have cared if you started stating that DI dwarves shouldn't be playable even though they've been alliance since cata.

    Just because I don't like pineaplle pizza doesn't mean I should angrily go up to strangers who like pineapple pizza and toss it in the trash.

    Don't be that person.

    Your "player experience" is not affected by what race someone plays, especially in the case of high elves already being part of the alliance.

  16. #14776
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "We" are not defining anything. The game and its lore are defining it. High elves are a separate group of thalassian elves, independent from the blood elves.
    The game defines blood elves as high elves. We also have the lead developers of WoW defining blood elves as THE high elves of the WoW universe. Just because blood elves changed their name does not mean they no longer are OUR high elves.

    Heck, the blood elf heritage questline makes it crystal clear that the next chapter of the "high elves" is their becoming blood elves. One of the quests in the heritage armor questline has this (Quest: The Setting Sun):

    Remember the Sunwell. We ride into battle with those words for a reason. We lost so much that day... I lost so much that day. Shine the lantern on the southern side of the island, where the Dead Scar meets the sea. There you will see how the fall of the Sunwell began. And with it, the last act of the High Elves.

    This INGAME questline is in 100% agreement with Chris Metzen's statement "blood elves are our high elves". The quest doesn't say "the last act of the blood elves" or "the last act of a group of high elves, but the real high elves remain". No, it clearly explains to us how blood elves are our high elves in the WoW universe. So, I repeat... Blizzard both in game and out (lead developer comments) define blood elves as the continuation of the high elves. The small diluted group of alliance aligned "high elves" we see in game do not represent what it means to be a high elf in the WoW universe. No, they are a fractured group with no real purpose or direction and are nothing but a political deviation to the actual high elf group in WoW... the blood elves... the group of high elves that are playable, that are defined as "our high elves", that are the next chapter of the high elf story.

    So when I repeat the statement "blood elves are our high elves" it's not to be "argumentative for the sake of it", it's to highlight the fact that high elves are indeed playable and are available on the Horde. Making a fractured group of them playable on the Alliance would dilute from this unique experience offered to the Horde faction (just as humans will never be playable on the Horde). Void elves were given as a compromise. And because of the status of alliance aligned high elves, their presence is designated to NPCs which in all fairness is fitting to remain that way,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    All this "race uniqueness faction identity" you're being excessively dramatic about would only apply if the high elves weren't alliance in the first place.
    That's the main issue with your argument, you're talking as if the high elves aren't already alliance.

    What YOU personally interpret the high elves' role to be is completely irrelevant.
    In game and in lore shows us that they're alliance alligned.
    Void elves and blood elves existing does not mean everyone has to stfu and disregard high elves.
    The blood elf story will continue
    The high elf story will continue

    Just like no one would have cared if you started stating that DI dwarves shouldn't be playable even though they've been alliance since cata.

    Just because I don't like pineaplle pizza doesn't mean I should angrily go up to strangers who like pineapple pizza and toss it in the trash.

    Don't be that person.

    Your "player experience" is not affected by what race someone plays, especially in the case of high elves already being part of the alliance.
    Read my above reply. My definition of high elves is what the game tells us and what the lead developers have told us. Blood elves are the continuation of the high elves. The blood elf heritage questline confirms this. The high elf story is the blood elf story, so you're a bit confused on that part.

    My WoW experience would be affected if a key pillar of the game (faction distinction) was reduced to meaningless. Just because you don't care what repercussions there could be doesn't mean others shouldn't or that "everything would be fine". Thankfully Blizzard are not as naive as that.
    Last edited by Strippling; 2020-03-18 at 10:12 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  17. #14777
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The game defines blood elves as high elves. We also have the lead developers of WoW defining blood elves as THE high elves of the WoW universe. Just because blood elves changed their name does not mean they no longer are OUR high elves.
    People often ignore or forget that High elf is a race and "Blood elf" is just a name of the group of high elves, they think or believe they changed race, and the "high elf" epithet belongs and is only applied to the elves who didn't change name and are aliance aligned.. Hence for then, only the alliance aligned are high elves, who is disingenuous and wrong

  18. #14778
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    My WoW experience would be affected if a key pillar of the game (faction distinction) was reduced to meaningless. Just because you don't care what repercussions there could be doesn't mean others shouldn't or that "everything would be fine". Thankfully Blizzard are not as naive as that.
    The difference between the factions was already touched on two times:

    1st - in BC when they gave paladins to the Horde and shamans to the Alliance.

    2nd - in MoP when both factions were given identical pandarens.

    Why do you ignore these points? They have already had a greater impact on the identity of the factions than the potential addition of high elves.

    High elves and blood elves could freely coexist in different factions while sharing a common history as the pandarens Tushui and huojin, night elves and nightborne.
    Last edited by Aldefard Aelfwine; 2020-03-18 at 10:54 AM.

  19. #14779
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The game defines blood elves as high elves.
    This is false. It's actually objectively false, and blatantly obvious to anyone who checks the in-game:
    • "High elf" and "blood elf" are separate entities.
    • "High elf" characters are Alliance-aligned, and hostile toward "blood elf" characters, and vice-versa.
    • "High elf" faction is separate and independent from the "blood elf" faction.
    • "High elf" faction does not recognize the "blood elf" leadership, and vice-versa.
    • "High elf" characters do not like to be called "blood elf", and vice-versa.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    People often ignore or forget that High elf is a race and "Blood elf" is just a name of the group of high elves
    And "people often ignore or forget" that high elf is also a name of a group of elves in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  20. #14780
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And "people often ignore or forget" that high elf is also a name of a group of elves in the game.
    no one forget that, i even said on my comment, but this is not an "official group name" is just the race name they keep using to refer to themselves, not unique, since it clashes with the actual definition of the race, thats why people keep playing with semantics to validate arbitrary saying what is a high elf and what is not, even going against actual lore and dev's words

    The high elf race is playable, under the name of blood elves, and are horde, Thats why is totally correct and canon to say "high elves are already playable" because they are, the race is.

    The are individuals of the high elf race within the alliance, a group, not a race, who are not playable
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-03-18 at 12:33 PM.

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