1. #14761
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Not apples to oranges at all. Void Elves don't need to "look like other races" because they already do, just as a Dark Iron Dwarf looks like as much like a Bronzebeard already (aka same model, different fluff customization).

    The theme of increased customizations is that they're breaking the mold of the original aesthetics the race started with, that's what you're so ignorantly failing to understand. @Obelisk Kai is doing the same. Though his more obviously comes from a place of hard bias.
    I doubt regular dwarves will be getting dark grey skin tones and I doubt DID would get pale skin flesh tones. On the other hand, sand troll skin colors does not impede on another existing playable race, likewise WH dwarf tattoos does not impede on another playable dwarven aesthetic. Different skin toned undead does not impede on another playable races aesthetic (unless there is somehow another undead playable race that I'm unaware of??).

    So yes, apples to oranges. Void elves getting "high elf" skin tones would pretty much just make them blood elves... an already playable race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The simple fact you need to ask this question (and repeat it) show that you either:
    • Don't understand (or don't care to) what people are really asking for;
    • Do understand what people are really asking for, but are just arguing for the sake of being a contrarian.

    You act like you have some kind of "gotcha!" question in your hands, but all it does is making you look foolish, because none of that addresses the fundamental issue here: a group of high elves that is part of the Alliance, and has been for some time, but is not playable yet.

    Names do not matter. When we say "blood elves are not high elves" is to combat this notion being perpetrated by those who are against high elves as a playable race that the high elves and blood elves are one and the same group, when they're not.
    You still haven't answered the question.

    And you still don't seem to understand why Blizzard said alliance high elves aren't playable. I know there is a fractured group of high elves aligned with the alliance, but I also know they do no represent the high elf race... the blood elves do and they are already playable. It's not about me being "contrarion", it's about me appreciating an integral aspect of the game faction identity and uniqueness. You may be ok with blurring faction lines, I am not though and clearly aren't blizzard. We understand your request, but you don't seem to understand the reasoning behind why it's not a healthy option for the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I haven't. At all. Unless you think "disagreeing with you" is a "veiled insult".
    Your lack of imagination
    But hey, why bother making sure you know what you're talking about
    I think you know pretty well, but are just trying to be cute
    This is beyond ironic coming from you
    You misspelled "opinion" there in the bolded part
    It's downright amazing how you can be so cold-hearted
    Ok, dude, no need to make your hatred of high elves anti-high-elf bias show so strongly, there.
    I'll take "ways to make the opposition not take you seriously" for $400.

    These have all come from you (directly copy and pasted from your replies to me) within the last few pages. You throw veiled insults within your disagreements. Don't act like a saint buddy. Oh and man up, if you're going to report a post because of "veiled insults" then I suggest you don't be a hypocrite.

    Of course you'll just dismiss these as "disagreements", cause well, you're a saint apparently.

    And this is where our conversation ends.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  2. #14762
    Man, I can't tell which side I land on when both sides argue with such pedantry. I'm leaning into, fuck it-make them playable as a low effort Blood Elf reskin.

  3. #14763
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post

    So yes, apples to oranges. Void elves getting "high elf" skin tones would pretty much just make them blood elves... an already playable race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You know what, the humans SW and KT are both the "same race" and if we look closer, they both have completely different skin and hair colors.
    Whether it's a personalization option or a playable race,there will necessarily be the same thing to differentiate between HE and BE.

  4. #14764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I doubt regular dwarves will be getting dark grey skin tones and I doubt DID would get pale skin flesh tones. On the other hand, sand troll skin colors does not impede on another existing playable race, likewise WH dwarf tattoos does not impede on another playable dwarven aesthetic. Different skin toned undead does not impede on another playable races aesthetic (unless there is somehow another undead playable race that I'm unaware of??).

    So yes, apples to oranges. Void elves getting "high elf" skin tones would pretty much just make them blood elves... an already playable race.
    Bronzebeards have had a dark grey skin tone since vanilla.



    From this thread ~5 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._dwarves_look/

    "This is the closest I can get which still looks nowhere near an authentic Dark iron dwarf and lacks the coal gray skin and molten eyes."

    What's that show? It shows people try and make do with existing options until what they're actually wanting becomes available. It also shows you can varying degrees of "dark grey skin and red eyes dwarf" such as the dwarf pictured there vs the Dark Iron Dwarves. Same way that Nightelves and Nightborne are both purple elves but look very distinct from each other. I feel it is only a lack of imagination, or hard bias, that thinks there cannot be another set of fair skin elf customization in the game apart from Blood Elves existing ones.

    Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves already disprove it. They all carry fair skin choices but are vastly different, Gnomes for instance have various pink-fair palettes mixed into theirs.

    And bringing in the other races (as in "sand troll skin doesn't impede other playable races") is missing the point.

    These increased customizations are not competing against other playable race aesthetics, they are competing against what is already available to the existing race.

    Another way to put this would be like this: Do not expect Darkspear Trolls to get more blue/purple skin tones (evidence: they're getting colors they've never had), do not expect Bronzebeard Dwarves to gain skin tones they've already had (evidence: you can make a black dwarf now), do not expect Undead to simply get more pale skin options (evidence: they're getting murky green/brown skin colors, as well as non-bone showing looks). Then there's the rumor of Blood Elves getting dark skin as well.

    I hope those examples drive the message home: It's not what is a race getting compared to another race, it is "what can this race get that the race itself does not already have?"

    When you look at it from that point of view, it will make much more sense. For instance, I'm going to go on a limb right now and say do not expect Night Elves to get more purple skin tones (because they already have a plethora of purple skin tones). Do not expect Orgrimmar Orcs (Green Orcs), to go more different shades of green skin. Etc etc.

    Ofc we will not see whether this hypothesis comes true until we see them unveil more increased customizations.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2020-03-25 at 11:52 PM.

  5. #14765
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    You know what, the humans SW and KT are both the "same race" and if we look closer, they both have completely different skin and hair colors.
    Whether it's a personalization option or a playable race,there will necessarily be the same thing to differentiate between HE and BE.
    KT humans are several feet taller and wider than SW humans, and they have lore reasons behind those differences. The only lore difference between HE and BE is eye color, which might not even be a difference in the near future if we see the sunwell giving blue eyes back to BE due to the arcane aspect of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Bronzebeards have had a dark grey skin tone since vanilla.
    That was an existing skin tone prior to DID being playable. I highly doubt any additional Bronzebeard customizations will intrude into the DID aesthetic (ie dark greyish skin tones, fiery beards). Likewise, I highly doubt any possible customization additions for DID would intrude into the Bronzebeard aesthetic.

    So why should void elves be given customizations that would 100% intrude into the blood elf aesthetic?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves already disprove it. They all carry fair skin choices but are vastly different, Gnomes for instance have various pink-fair palettes mixed into theirs.
    They're all different races. So again, apples to oranges. High elves are not a different race to blood elves.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  6. #14766
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    You still haven't answered the question.
    And now we have evidence that you don't actually read what people post. Because I did answer your question. Two responses ago. And again: names do not matter because names do not address the core issue here.

    Your lack of imagination
    But hey, why bother making sure you know what you're talking about
    I think you know pretty well, but are just trying to be cute
    This is beyond ironic coming from you
    You misspelled "opinion" there in the bolded part
    It's downright amazing how you can be so cold-hearted
    Ok, dude, no need to make your hatred of high elves anti-high-elf bias show so strongly, there.
    I'll take "ways to make the opposition not take you seriously" for $400.

    These have all come from you (directly copy and pasted from your replies to me) within the last few pages. You throw veiled insults within your disagreements. Don't act like a saint buddy. Oh and man up, if you're going to report a post because of "veiled insults" then I suggest you don't be a hypocrite.
    ... None of those are insults. Absolutely none. Geez, you're reaching so far even Mr Fantastic would be having muscle cramps if he tried to stretch as far as you are, right now. Either that, of you have such thin skin it might as well be non-existing.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #14767
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... None of those are insults. Absolutely none. Geez, you're reaching so far even Mr Fantastic would be having muscle cramps if he tried to stretch as far as you are, right now. Either that, of you have such thin skin it might as well be non-existing.
    Thin skin? Is that why you report my "veiled insults" and I don't report yours? Quite obvious who the thin skinned one is here lmao.

    I simply highlighted comments from you that fit the definition of "veiled insults". My "veiled insults" toward you (as you say) are no more offensive than those of yours I quoted above... yet you're quick to report my post for "thinly veiled insult". Again, lmao. Man up.
    Last edited by Strippling; 2020-03-26 at 05:53 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  8. #14768
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Thin skin? Is that why you report my "veiled insults" and I don't report yours? Quite obvious who the thin skinned one is here lmao.
    It's you, if you think what I wrote were insults. Whereas yours was a direct insult toward people's intelligence.

    Also, what happened with this "this is where our conversation ends" of yours?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #14769
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's you, if you think what I wrote were insults. Whereas yours was a direct insult toward people's intelligence.
    I'll take "ways to make the opposition not take you seriously" for $400.

    Explain to me how that's "not an insult toward people's intelligence"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Also, what happened with this "this is where our conversation ends" of yours?
    After you respond to my above question (which will undoubtedly include some excuse for why your comments aren't insults but other people's comments are) Ill be ending the conversation.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  10. #14770
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    KT humans are several feet taller and wider than SW humans, and they have lore reasons behind those differences. The only lore difference between HE and BE is eye color, which might not even be a difference in the near future if we see the sunwell giving blue eyes back to BE due to the arcane aspect of it.

    I'm not talking about body morphology ...
    I say that the color palettes of skin and hair are different between two human races and that should be possible to do the same to differentiate the HE and BE.
    It is not as if it does not already exist, the NPC HE have shades of light skin or colors of hair that the BE do not have.

  11. #14771
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I'll take "ways to make the opposition not take you seriously" for $400.

    Explain to me how that's "not an insult toward people's intelligence"?
    Because it's not. It's simply a commentary on how you're using an """""argument""""" that has no argumentative value and only demonstrates how you're just trying to rile up the opposition.

    After you respond to my above question (which will undoubtedly include some excuse for why your comments aren't insults but other people's comments are) Ill be ending the conversation.
    You mean, still continue it?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #14772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    And not gonna get into back and forth over this @Obelisk Kai.

    Clearly we can summarize it to: There's people who think High Elf customization will come with Void Elf increased customization and there's people who think increased customization will not come to Void Elves and increased customization will not expand the aesthetics of Void Elves(this one clearly false).

    Nothing but time will show who ends up correct with their predictions.
    This should have been the sum total of your response had you intended that sentiment, rather than appending it after a point by point response to my previous post. As such, you already 'got into a back and forth over this'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Funny you talk about disregarding depths/nuance and drawing false equivalencies and hyperbole as you do the same just within this entire post.
    An entire post where I worked through your entire post point by point. That is not disregarding depth and nuance, that is illustrating why you are wrong. I say again, you find simplistic comparisons and then say because X=X, Y must also equal X. It does not, Y always equal Y. Y is distinct and unique.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    What you're forgetting is I was talking about Black skin tones coming to Dwarves (not wildhammer) and therefore breaking the mold on a race of typically fair skin options, as well as Tan/Brown skin tones coming to break the mold on a race of typically blue skin options.

    It has nothing to do with "having an option that previously wasn't available". You seem to forget the whole point of increased customizations, which Ion stated flat out, is for characters to look and feel different from those of their same race option.

    A blue troll with red hair vs A blue troll with green hair is not the kind of difference he's talking about because we've already had that kind of customization difference for ages. They're showcasing much larger differences, along with a few subtle ones. Wildhammer Dwarf tattoos fall under suble. Having a straight up Black Dwarf isn't subtle at all. Same for Trolls, having a Tan/Brown Troll is vastly different from being just another Blue Darkspear Troll with different Tusk customization.

    We have seen from what they've already shown that skin color is a big factor for differentiation and follows what Ion says about "looking different" from those of your same race.
    That's a reach. Firstly, and most importantly, the Dwarven and Troll examples you keep reaching for aren't appropriate comparisons for high elf customization on Void Elves because what Dwarves and Trolls are getting are options not currently available to other similar races in game. A lot of the allied races have been predicated on their skin tone differentiation. Dark Iron Dwarves have a unique skin tone range that normal Dwarves don't have and nobody expects normal Dwarves to be getting access to Dark Iron Dwarf skins anytime soon either. That is where your logic leads though, if taken at face value, that if you consider Void Elves receiving Blood Elf customizations (which lets not kid ourselves, is what high elf customization means) then you must consider it appropriate for ordinary Dwarves to ask for and receive Dark Iron like skin tones. And vice versa, Dark Irons being able to receive the human range skin tones currently available to Dwarves.

    That isn't going to happen, as it obliterates the aesthetic differences between Dark Iron Dwarves and normal Dwarves which is one of the critical reasons for having Dark Iron Dwarves as an Allied race to begin with. The unspoken nugget of your objection of course is that a Dark Iron Dwarf and an ordinary Dwarf are both playable within the same faction whereas a Blood Elf is on the Horde. Which of course is intended, as maintaining mutually diverse factions is something they clearly wish to maintain.

    I also question your interpretation of the intent behind the customization expansion. That it is for individuals to have greater reach to customise their character is a given. That you somehow imagine this means they are going to ignore all other considerations when deciding what options to give out is where you are over-reaching. Dwarf skintone customization is an easy example because we know what skin tones Dwarves are going to get, they are going to get Human range skin tone options. Every race that uses the current human skin tone range is going to get that expansion. Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Mecha-Gnomes and Blood/high elves.

    Night Elves won't be getting those tones though because they don't use a human skin tone range. They have their own palette to choose from and any extra options will almost certainly be tonally consistent with what they already have. Void Elves will almost certainly be the same, whatever extra options they receive will be consistent with who they are i.e. voidified elves.

    Frankly, customisation in WoW has been so limited up until this point that there is an enormous amount of customization they can add to the races that will not in any way infringe on the aesthetic of another, already existing race. Players can be granted an enormous amount of extra options without doing that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Here you go again, essentially trying to say that Allied Races must stay in some box you conceived within your own mind without Blizzard having said so in regards to increased customizations.

    Increased customizations is a whole new ball game, and they have not denied increased customizations to Allied Races, nor Void Elves as a whole.

    It also doesn't matter what a race was conceived as, again I have already stated this multiple times. Darkspear Trolls, Undead, and Dwarves were conceived with specific aesthetics when they were released. Those aesthetics stayed the same for years, until Blizzard decided with increased customizations they're going to broaden those aesthetics.

    You are placing a limitation on Void Elves, one you've made up yourself with no backing in context of increased customizations, and it's already shown it does not apply to any race getting the new increased customizations.

    Anything you're trying to say without taking in the context of the increased customizations and the goal of that system is weak because the situation has changed. It would be like trying to argue against the ramifications of tmog when we already have tmog existing (aka trying to be a person who would say tmog shouldn't be a thing). You are trying to argue a specific race must keep their specific aesthetic as if increased customizations are not going to come to them.

    You can only argue this way if you actually believe increased customizations aren't going to hit Allied Races at some point after core races get their increased customization in Shadowlands.
    It matters a lot what a race was conceived as believe it or not. Not everything is a limitless, formless canvas that is subject only to a personal interpretation in order to achieve meaning. Increased customizations is not an excuse to believe that what a race is or where it came from doesn't matter and that everything you wish can be expressed through those customizations. Races have backgrounds, race have stories and where a race comes from has a bearing on how that race is portrayed. An Undead cannot get living human customizations because the nature of the character precludes that.

    Firstly, this is Blizzard. They are working to a schedule with one of the most limited character creators in the enre, one that was behind the curve even in 2004 when the game was released (Everquest 2 offered substantially more options in it's character creator). They are only just now raising the bar somewhat and even then it is to approach a level others are either already at or left behind a long time ago. The kind of limitless overhaul you are seemingly thinking is in the offing is magnitudes beyond the upgrade to the most basic package of options we currently have that we are likely to get.

    Secondly, yes, races are limited by what they are and (very importantly) by the existence of allied races predicated on a different aesthetic. Ordinary Orcs will not get Mag'har options. Mag'har will not get green skin tones. Dark Iron Dwarves will not get ordinary Dwarf options. Ordinary Dwarves will not get Dark Iron Dwarf options. These are common sense, easy to predict outcomes that most people are clearly already assuming. The only reason this idea gets any oxygen is that you seem to believe it is a way of getting around that barrier to your goal of fair skinned thalassian elves on the Alliance, the faction wall.

    I am 'limiting' Void Elves because if giving them a distinct aesthetic was something to be so casually disregarded then they would have given the Alliance the exiles once they constructed the Allied race system rather than creating Void Elves. But I am not 'limiting' Void Elves at all. I am merely arguing that what the races are likely to get will be consistent with who they are and that, in the cases of those races with a close looking 'allied race', what aesthetic differences are present will be respected.

    There are plenty of opportunities to diversify Void Elves without having them encroach on Blood/high elf aesthetics. Options that will actually strengthen their core fantasy and diversify them away onto their own path. It is a strawman to suggest I believe Allied races won't be getting their own customization options in Shadowlands. They probably will, or in the expansion after. But just as the faction wall, a boundary you've never reconciled yourself to, matters, so too does the aesthetic boundaries between some races. You'd be as well to argue that Mag'har Orcs should get green skin tones when they get their pass as to argue Void Elves should look like Blood Elves.





    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    In practical terms, it works just like how Night Elves and Nightborne are both considered Purple Elves (by the game's definition, not by any random schmo on a forum) yet have incredibly different palettes for skin choices.

    Same thing for fair skin, there's enough variation to make them different from existing fair skin options, all you need to look at evidence for this is the existing races that have fair skin (Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Blood Elves) they are all different shades of what fair skin can look like. It isn't like Blizzard has run out of how to differentiate that.

    What Blood Elves get doesn't matter to the aesthetics of what Void Elves can/would get. Again, it's as simple as now Night Elf and Nightborne are very different in purple skin color aesthetic.
    That isn't how it works at all. Blood Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Kul Tirans and Mecha Gnomes fall into a category that isn't fair skin. It's human range skin tones. Any skin tone that is possible on a real world Human should be allowable on any of those races and that is what has been confirmed to be happening with expanded customization. So everything from palest white to the darkest brown and black, that is Human range. You can't isolate one part of the human skin tone range and argue it can be kept unique from that others. That isn't how the human skin tone range works, it's all part of the breadth of human diversity. Same for Dwarves, Blood/high elves and Gnomes, everything that is on the human skin tone range should be accessible to them. Some Allied races share the skin tones, but that is because those particular allied races are not predicated on skin tone difference as the primary point of differentiation (Kul Tirans have a unique physique, Mecha Gnomes are half machine).

    Night Elves, Nightborne, Void Elves, Orcs of both kinds...they use non human range skin tones. There is no real world point of reference. What does it matter than Night Elves and Nightborne use different purple based palettes, nobody is going to call them out on that for being unrealistic because they are unrealistic by design. But any race that uses human range skin tones, we know what a human skin tone range is and that is something you can't slice and dice up in a video game of this nature for reasons that should be obvious.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    The rest of this section was a bunch of un-nuanced hyperbole thinking too hard about how High Elf customization can be implemented onto Void Elves.
    Un-nuanced hyperbole? If you are going to use my own criticisms back at me it would help if they words were used with the correct meaning. I said your ideas fall apart under interrogation, and they do, and this passage strikes me as an attempt to avoid engaging with the myriad flaws in your proposal.

    1.) Will Void Elves get access to all currently available Blood Elf skintones (which, by the time Void Elves get their pass, will include several more Human range skin tones) which would give them far more options in this category than any other race?
    2.) If yes, how do you defend the obliteration of the Void Elf fantasy given Void Elves will have far more human range skin tones than void elf skin tones?
    3.) How do you defend giving a race access to the customization options and aesthetic of another race whilst maintaining unique access to the few options that preserve it's own unique aesthetic?
    4.) If only a portion of the Blood Elf human range skin tones are required for Void Elves to 'realise' the fantasy of being an ersatz high elf, would the darkest human range skin tones ranged being added in Shadowlands suffice?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    If you are trying to defend having faction pride, it defeats the purpose to then also say "if you wanna play X race go to [opposite] faction." Plus the equivalence isn't Dark Iron with Bronzebeard as both groups have immensely different customizations open to them on the same side, as you said.

    But again, this paragraph here misses the essence of what increased customizations are. They are there to make you look vastly different within one race option, you are again trying to bring in comparisons of other races as customization options for players to get their desired look, when the whole point of increased customizations is to increase variation within a race, and to vastly increase that variation.

    It is actually un-nuanced to keep trying to suggest another race to get one's kicks from as the addition of increased customizations is so a player doesn't have to play a different race to look vastly different.
    There are ways of looking entirely different within one race whilst not starting to look like another. With Void Elves it's obvious. If going away from the Void leads them to look like Blood Elves, then the logical path is to offer Void Elf customization that is closer to the Void.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Need I remind you the purpose and intention of increased customizations? To look vastly different from others who picked your same race. These increased customizations are also what many players have been asking for years, including things like boneless undead, wildhammer tattoos, different ethnicities within humans, and if the rumor is true - dark skin for Blood Elves.

    Until you can wrap your head around the fact that increased customizations break the mold of the existing race aesthetic, then ofc you will continue to argue as you do - not taking into account a new feature that disregards "what a race's aesthetic was conceived with". Especially considering these options are being added on top, not requiring a new race slot or anything, they will just be more to all current race options.

    Saying "I really doubt it's what you want" doesn't mean much because you could say that for every race that hasn't been given a preview for what increased customization is coming. How do you know Night Elf fans will be getting "what they want"? How about Gnome fans? Orc fans? Goblin fans? Worgen fans? etc etc.

    It sounds like a last attempt at "you won't be happy anyway!" when we don't know what circumstances will look like in 2-3 years.

    What you want is something that looks exactly like a Blood Elf within the Alliance, faction diversity be damned and we have this thread as proof of that. As I recall this time two years ago you were pretty much certain the pro High Elf campaign had a measure of momentum and Blizzard was going to inevitably crack.

    Just like how I don't believe anyone thought we would be getting increased customizations feature after Allied Races system was unveiled. Blizzard continues their tradition of iterating on existing systems, as they always have, until they get it to where they want.

    It is obvious Allied Races had a lot of limitations over the increased customizations feature, being that if you wanted a different specific look you have to race-change and level up an entirely new character just to get that racial armor. Increased customizations skirts around all that, while also offering much more diversity in a race's aesthetic than we've ever seen.
    You are arguing increased customization means all previous restrictions are void when that is not the case at all. This is just you seeing what you wish to see and arguing that previous concerns are now entirely gone because of these improvements is proof of that. Respecting faction diversity and respecting the integrity of existing races are things they can keep doing whilst enhancing the options on offer to all races.

    They can expand Void Elf customization without making them look like Blood Elves. They can expand Dark Iron Dwarf customization and Mag'har Orc customization without them looking like Bronzebeards and ordinary Orcs as well.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-26 at 04:01 PM.

  13. #14773
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This should have been the sum total of your response had you intended that sentiment, rather than appending it after a point by point response to my previous post. As such, you already 'got into a back and forth over this'.
    It is important to leave a rebuttal from the other side so that both views are represented. My posts focus on presenting a response to flawed/biased arguments. Whether you continue to have further rebuttals of the same thing you've already said doesn't matter because the point is never to change your personal mind, but to leave the different perspectives viewable for other parties.

    It is also why I don't engage in your flawed points, such as your "begging the question" questions you pose further down in this post.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Night Elves won't be getting those tones though because they don't use a human skin tone range. They have their own palette to choose from and any extra options will almost certainly be tonally consistent with what they already have. Void Elves will almost certainly be the same, whatever extra options they receive will be consistent with who they are i.e. voidified elves.
    This right here is actually hilarious. Because Darkspear Trolls already proved this wrong. They do not receive "extra options that are tonally consistent with what they already have" as you put it.

    It's probably why you do not even mention the increased customizations coming with Darkspear Trolls because they shit over your entire premise of "races will be given options tonally consistent with what they already have." Undead also break it, receiving skin options that are not "tonally consistent with what they already have" through the form of non-pale-as-fuck skin tones.

    Nothing has been previewed for Night Elves increased customization so I do not understand where you're getting the notion that they will not be receiving skin tones inconsistent with what they already have. The precedent has already been laid out among other "unrealistic by design" races. Which btw, is another self-imposed limitation you're putting onto races.

    Nowhere is it said that races with "human skin ranges" must all conform to the same range of tones. This is already proveable by going into the current character selection screen and looking through Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, & Blood Elves skin colors.

    Humans have a lot of pale/washed out "fair skin" ranges, Dwarves very obviously have lots of "earthy brown" within their ranges, Gnomes are the only ones with a sense of "bronze" or "pink undertone", and Blood Elves are the only ones that receive a lot of tones with reddish hues attached.

    Are there a couple between the races that can be deemed the same? Sure, but it's not as you try to paint it where these "fair skin races" all carry exactly the same breadth of options/tones/colors between each other (which is impossible given Dwarves and Gnomes have less skin options than Humans & Blood Elves, and also that each of them have many unique tones not available to the others).

    Other parts of the post would be further circles, so I haven't commented on those.

  14. #14774
    Honestly after the reveal of wildhammer and troll variants as customization options in SL im surprised people are still going with this.

    This proves that high elves will never be a thing. They're not going to keep adding ARs for every sub faction of a race.

    You guys got velves, thats it. At most you moght get some less voidy options but you'd still he a void elf.

    If blizz ever intended to give you helves then velves would never have been implemented.

  15. #14775
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    It is important to leave a rebuttal from the other side so that both views are represented. My posts focus on presenting a response to flawed/biased arguments. Whether you continue to have further rebuttals of the same thing you've already said doesn't matter because the point is never to change your personal mind, but to leave the different perspectives viewable for other parties.

    It is also why I don't engage in your flawed points, such as your "begging the question" questions you pose further down in this post.
    You don't engage with the questions because the answers they illicit call into question the feasibility of your goal. These are the kinds of question the developers would be asking should they go down the path of even given a modicum of serious attention to your idea once they sit down and consider Void Elf customization. That itself is debatable, the idea is as likely to be summarily rejected for obvious reasons before they even begin discussing it to the point where the difficulties start to emerge.

    The answers to the questions are self-evident of course. It is not fair or desirable to give the aesthetic of one race to another race, particularly when the aesthetic differentiation is the point, and if human range skin tones were granted to Void Elves, those seeking that outcome would want fairer skintones, rather than any of the darker tones from the human range that will shortly be on offer and they would not be satisfied with darker skin tones, still fully representative of being a high elf of course, because that isn't what some are really asking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    This right here is actually hilarious. Because Darkspear Trolls already proved this wrong. They do not receive "extra options that are tonally consistent with what they already have" as you put it.

    It's probably why you do not even mention the increased customizations coming with Darkspear Trolls because they shit over your entire premise of "races will be given options tonally consistent with what they already have." Undead also break it, receiving skin options that are not "tonally consistent with what they already have" through the form of non-pale-as-fuck skin tones.
    How not? Are the other troll tribes in anyway meaningfully different from the Darkspear?

    Were the Amani trapped up a dome for ten thousand years bathing in the energies of a font of arcane power?

    Were the Gurubashi blasted with wave after wave of void energies?

    Were the Drakkari enslaved by the Firelord himself and forced to dwell within a volcano?

    Were the Shatterspear lightforged?

    Did the Farakki live in a splendid golden city for millenia where they looked down as the other Trolls physically devolved beneath them?

    No, they didn't. Darkspear Trolls are being granted access to the skin tone range of all of savage Troll kind, Trolls whose primary differentiation is that they live in different parts of the world and anyone can easily explain why their troll looks like Farakki even if they are a Darkspear.

    And Undead are dead. Their skin tones can be anything that invokes decay, greens, light purples, blacks, grays, yellows, just so long as it looks sickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Nothing has been previewed for Night Elves increased customization so I do not understand where you're getting the notion that they will not be receiving skin tones inconsistent with what they already have. The precedent has already been laid out among other "unrealistic by design" races. Which btw, is another self-imposed limitation you're putting onto races.
    You are the one who continually cites 'purple elves' as a response, without considering that human range skin tones are based on reality (and thus form an expected continuum) whereas the Night Elves and Nightborne use skin tones that are not real. An arbitrary cut off point, where one part of the blue-purple spectrum was assigned to Night Elves and another to Nightborne is accepted in a way a similar cut off point which assigned all the dark human range skin tones to those nasty Blood Elves and all the lovely pale skinned range skin tone to the heroic, put upon exiles would not be. Human range skin tones will come as a package. Unrealistic skin tone ranges can be chopped and change to emphasise differences as required.

    And when Void Elves were created, given Blood Elves already had a human skin tone range, they had to move to an unrealistic skin tone range to justify their aesthetic differentiation. Something had to be changed to differentiate them, skin tone was the easiest as it allowed them to give the Alliance the model otherwise untouched. It could have been giving them k'thir style face tentacles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Nowhere is it said that races with "human skin ranges" must all conform to the same range of tones. This is already proveable by going into the current character selection screen and looking through Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, & Blood Elves skin colors.

    Humans have a lot of pale/washed out "fair skin" ranges, Dwarves very obviously have lots of "earthy brown" within their ranges, Gnomes are the only ones with a sense of "bronze" or "pink undertone", and Blood Elves are the only ones that receive a lot of tones with reddish hues attached.

    Are there a couple between the races that can be deemed the same? Sure, but it's not as you try to paint it where these "fair skin races" all carry exactly the same breadth of options/tones/colors between each other (which is impossible given Dwarves and Gnomes have less skin options than Humans & Blood Elves, and also that each of them have many unique tones not available to the others).

    Other parts of the post would be further circles, so I haven't commented on those.
    The very races we know are getting that skin tone range extended to encompass the critically under-represented dark skin tone range? And while there are mild differences between these groups, here's the thing, a gnome with a skin colour that is 95% identical to a Blood Elf skin tone (except one has pink undertones whereas the other has red) isn't going to confuse your intrude on each other's aesthetic spaces because they are obviously different races. A Void Elf with the same skin tone as Gnome most definitely will.

    You have taken a statement entirely out of context and read into it what you wish whilst disregarding everything else they have ever said. The entire justification for Void Elves is that they look different from Blood Elves. You cannot give a Void Elf human range skin tones without removing the critical aesthetic differentiation between them and the Blood/high elves. Skin tone is not an irrelvant factor. The skin tone differences between the Mag'har Orcs and the corrupted Orcs mean something. It is the same case for Void Elves and Blood Elves, the different tones mean something.
    You'd be as well to argue for green Mag'har Orcs.

    Will Allied races get a customization pass? Absolutely. What you will find however is that it is perfectly possible to expand the options available to an Allied race whilst still respecting the unique aesthetics of other races. Void Elves are Void mutants after all, the direction they can take them to lean into that fantasy is obvious. Anyone want who wants the traditional high elf fantasy badly enough, the one the Void Elves don't represent, should do as they were advised by Ion nearly two years ago. The Horde is waiting for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Honestly after the reveal of wildhammer and troll variants as customization options in SL im surprised people are still going with this.

    This proves that high elves will never be a thing. They're not going to keep adding ARs for every sub faction of a race.

    You guys got velves, thats it. At most you moght get some less voidy options but you'd still he a void elf.

    If blizz ever intended to give you helves then velves would never have been implemented.
    Pretty much this. The fundamental question I posed two and a half years ago remains unanswered by the pro High Elf community, if Blizzard ever intended to add high elves, why create Void Elves? It's an unanswerable question by them of course, because the answer is one they don't want to give (Blizzard wouldn't have added Void Elves if they ever intended to add high elves).

    I Blizzard ever gives high elf like skin tones, the emphasis will be on high elf like, not high elf exact (which is a blood elf). The monkey paw result remains that mockup of a Void Elf with patches of normal skin mottled with void and dark purple extremities. That is something I can genuinely see happening.

  16. #14776
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The fundamental question I posed two and a half years ago remains unanswered by the pro High Elf community, if Blizzard ever intended to add high elves, why create Void Elves? It's an unanswerable question by them of course, because the answer is one they don't want to give (Blizzard wouldn't have added Void Elves if they ever intended to add high elves).
    Not unanswerable at all. It's very easy: they iterate and think of better ways to implement something. Increased customizations are an evolution from Allied Races.

    You may as well ask the question: Why did Lightforged/Mag'har/Highmountain Tauren/Mechagnomes come into existence as Allied Races when they could've been (and what was presumed before AR system reveal) increased customizations to their existing race options?

    Just like how Darkspear Trolls are getting various tribes with different cultures/looks/stories (let's call all this fluff) compared to Darkspear and all that "fluff" is being swept under the rug to simply give Darkspear more customization options.

    Same thing, except in Void Elf case you're actually bringing a race option (Thalassian) to a faction that didn't have it before. Therefore it actually has more of an effect than the above 4 examples that simply could have been (and were presumed to be) added customization like we are getting in Shadowlands.

    It's also why we have systems like Void Storage which no longer serve any purpose at all given that Collections tab is a thing now. It's a vestige of an earlier design solution. The Portal Rooms are another example of an iterative design solution to previously existing portals. You're trying to act as if increased customizations are in no way an iteration of the customization brought in by Allied Races.

    All of it is an extension what's been said by Ion, to increase the overall variety of character customization as it's been a long time coming. As you've said, customization in WoW has been so limited up to this point.

    That's exactly why they're trying to open up those further limitations, I do not know how you do not understand that.

    If Darkspears continued to look blue, if Dwarves & Blood Elves were not getting starkly dark brown skin tones, if Undead stayed to pale options, and instead of having 1-10 choices of blue/fair/pale (for respective races) you had 1-20 choices of blue/fair/pale respectively you are not opening up limitations, you are keeping limitations. That is, a darkspear must stay blue, a dwarf/blood elf must stay fair, an undead must stay pale.

    It's incredible how many words you try using to essentially justify "Void Elves have to stay limited to an aesthetic but no other race has to, even though we are getting a new system that breaks existing aesthetic limitations on other races".

  17. #14777
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Pretty much this. The fundamental question I posed two and a half years ago remains unanswered by the pro High Elf community, if Blizzard ever intended to add high elves, why create Void Elves? It's an unanswerable question by them of course, because the answer is one they don't want to give (Blizzard wouldn't have added Void Elves if they ever intended to add high elves).

    I Blizzard ever gives high elf like skin tones, the emphasis will be on high elf like, not high elf exact (which is a blood elf). The monkey paw result remains that mockup of a Void Elf with patches of normal skin mottled with void and dark purple extremities. That is something I can genuinely see happening.
    Why create void elves?

    Blizzard is still preparing the next expansion while the current expansion is just beginning.

    The high elves were probably reserved for the customization options of shadowlands, BFA served to give the Thalassian model to the alliance with the void elves.
    We all know that the Allied races needed a great theme, the High Elves were probably deemed too bland.

    We can not know in advance but it is possible given the enthusiasm at Blizzard to sell us the void elves.
    And then the answers to the questions concerning the high-elves are always dodged but while leaving crumbs of hope.

    In short, they never said an emphatic NO.

    So for me, it is quite possible that the high elf option is available for the void elves, a bit like the mag'har (the precursors in the genre), we will have the Ren'dorei tribe and the Quel'dorei tribe together.


    My analysis of the situation.
    Last edited by Frenchvince; 2020-03-26 at 09:09 PM.

  18. #14778
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Honestly after the reveal of wildhammer and troll variants as customization options in SL im surprised people are still going with this.

    This proves that high elves will never be a thing. They're not going to keep adding ARs for every sub faction of a race.

    You guys got velves, thats it. At most you moght get some less voidy options but you'd still he a void elf.

    If blizz ever intended to give you helves then velves would never have been implemented.
    Pretty much. I think many high elfers are now realizing that high elves as their own race is extremely unlikely to happen, so they're rather focusing their time on asking for "high elf customizations" for void elves... which again is extremely unlikely. It goes to show though that for many it was not about the lore, just the aesthetic.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  19. #14779
    Blizzard will eventually add new customization options for allied races, since many people play them. When they do, pink skin tones for void elves seems like a natural addition. I can see them touching allied races towards the endgame of Shadowlands or in 10.0 if they plan to continue adding customizations in future expansion. But I can't see them just straight ignoring 10 races just because they are not core races. I know they said they have only the core races planned for Shadowlands' release, but eventually they'll run out of core races to improve.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  20. #14780
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Blizzard will eventually add new customization options for allied races, since many people play them. When they do, pink skin tones for void elves seems like a natural addition. I can see them touching allied races towards the endgame of Shadowlands or in 10.0 if they plan to continue adding customizations in future expansion. But I can't see them just straight ignoring 10 races just because they are not core races. I know they said they have only the core races planned for Shadowlands' release, but eventually they'll run out of core races to improve.
    Exactly. The bolded drives the point home. Also that, by now, for some players some of these Allied Races are just as favored and/or meaningful identity of their character as are core races.

    Therefore, it's only natural Allied Races will get the same treatment that core races are receiving with increased customizations when it is their turn.

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