Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[corebit]

Having read some threads about undead and new additions to them, high elves on the Alliance and undead high elves on the Horde would actually make sense. It would actually be the first proper and balanced addition in which both factions recieve the same model. The blood elf and the night elf models are no longer faction-specific anyway and no faction holds exclusive rights to either anymore.

Undead elves make even less sense since only the Lich King has the power to raise non-humans, and why would the Lich King ally with the Horde in the first place? Sylvanas can only raise humans as Forsaken and only with the help of Val'kyr, which she has very few of. Her threat to raise Saurfang's son was an empty one as she doesn't have that power.

All of the undead rangers under Sylvanas' command were banshees raised by Arthas decades ago.

Interesting, thanks for the link. I think we are in a gray zone of lore, because they do not speak directly about high elves and the sunwell.

Still, i think the best way to make blood elves and high elves unique, is through sunwell vs. non sunwell users.
Silver Covenant are more known as arcane and ranger militia rather than other classes, or even holy energy users.

What gray zone of lore? The answer was crystal clear, and they do not need to say high elves specifically because blood elves ARE high elves.

[Combatbutler]

Interesting, thanks for the link. I think we are in a gray zone of lore, because they do not speak directly about high elves and the sunwell.

Still, i think the best way to make blood elves and high elves unique, is through sunwell vs. non sunwell users.
Silver Covenant are more known as arcane and ranger militia than other classes, or even holy energy users.

How is it a grey zone? Lor'themar never had any intention to cut off the high elves, quite the opposite. It is one of his main character traits. They can be cut off, but it hasn't happened, otherwise high elves to this day would scavange for artifacts to sate themselves and meditate almost every day and some of them might have become crippled or insane by going cold turkey.

[Traycor]

No elves are cut off from the Sunwell, it has unlimited range as already explained to you by Combatbulter.

Some high elves/blood elves still go on a symbolic pilgrimage to visit the Sunwell, because it is still the core of their heritage and culture. And it is established that Lor'themar allows any high elf/blood elf to visit the Sunwell in good faith. Even hardcore Alliance loyalists like the Silver Covenant are allowed to visit it as long as they don't start trouble. So far only Alleria has been prohibited from visiting it again for obvious reasons.

Doesn't the High Elf from Allerian Stronghold serve as the High Elf ambassador to the Sunwell? Lore wise, does he stay there now, or was it a one time visit for the storyline?

[RangerDaz]

Undead elves make even less sense since only the Lich King has the power to raise non-humans, and why would the Lich King ally with the Horde in the first place? Sylvanas can only raise humans as Forsaken and only with the help of Val'kyr, which she has very few of. Her threat to raise Saurfang's son was an empty one as she doesn't have that power.

Because they already exist since Wrath and Arthas invasion. They won't be raised now.

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How is it a grey zone? Lor'themar never had any intention to cut off the high elves, quite the opposite. It is one of his main character traits. They can be cut off, but it hasn't happened, otherwise high elves to this day would scavange for artifacts to sate themselves and meditate almost every day and some of them might have become crippled or insane by going cold turkey.

Well it is a gray zone because they are his enemies. The silver Covenant expelled the sunreavers from Dalaran and they are hostile to all Blood Elves. It doesn't make sense to give energies to the enemy that can be used against your own people, does it? This is how i view the situation, at least.

[Combatbutler]

Well it is a gray zone because they are his enemies. The silver Covenant expelled the sunreavers from Dalaran and they are hostile to all Blood Elves. It doesn't make sense to give energies to the enemy that can be used against your own people, does it? This is how i view the situation, at least.

Lor'themar sees the high elves still as his people, exile or not. The high elves have yet to pull a stunt that actually makes him cut their connection to the well.

[RangerDaz]

Lor'themar sees the high elves still as his people, exile or not. The high elves have yet to pull a stunt that actually makes him cut their connection to the well.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran

This i can't agree with you. The high elves harmed Lor'themar's people. any leader has to do what needs to be done to protect his people. He can't see high elves as his people after that, and high elves don't see blood elves as their people either.

[corebit]

Doesn't the High Elf from Allerian Stronghold serve as the High Elf ambassador to the Sunwell? Lore wise, does he stay there now, or was it a one time visit for the storyline?

Allerian Stronghold is stuck in the TBC timeline limbo, and may not even exist now because Outland is falling apart by the minute.

Because they already exist since Wrath and Arthas invasion. They won't be raised now.

And this is why the idea of them being playable is a non-starter.

[Syegfryed]

Having read some threads about undead and new additions to them, high elves on the Alliance and undead high elves on the Horde would actually make sense. It would actually be the first proper and balanced addition in which both factions recieve the same model. The blood elf and the night elf models are no longer faction-specific anyway and no faction holds exclusive rights to either anymore.

more elves is never a balanced or proper addition

[Traycor]

Lor'themar sees the high elves still as his people, exile or not. The high elves have yet to pull a stunt that actually makes him cut their connection to the well.

One possibility would be the introductory quest for the High Elf Allied Race could involve them being cut off from the Sunwell. Maybe the Blood Elves could fear that the High Elves associating with the Void Elves could somehow jeopardize the Sunwell, prompting Lor'themar to cut them all off. It would make for interesting story and would emphasize the divide.

Of course, those who want High Elf priests and paladins would be left out in the cold.

[RangerDaz]

And this is why the idea of them being playable is a non-starter.

Zaladalari, dark iron, maghar orcs, etc also exist for a while, right? I honestly don't see the problem.

[Deleted]

How do you know for sure there are no genetic differences between Kul'tirans and other humans? Have you played through the entire Alpha? They have a strong connection to the Drust, and future datamined quests may reveal more information on their origins even further.

Because burly Kul'Tirans are not the only ones there. There are also skinny Kul'Tirans and Kul'Tirans which are exactly the same as normal humans. Jaina is a Kul'Tiran. What do you think she is genetically different from burly and skinny ones or what?

The fact that they share the exact same culture was what prompted Blizzard to paint them purple *ahem infuse them with the Void, to set them apart enough to justify them as an Allied Race. High Elves are the same race, same culture, same genetics, same homeland, same everything save for blue eyes and they vote for a different political party.

Void Elves didn't share the exact same culture with Blood Elves, they were Blood Elves. They were invented out of the blue for the Allied Race slot. But they are an example that culture similarity does not matter.

[RangerDaz]

Of course, those who want High Elf priests and paladins would be left out in the cold.

Yes, it is true.

But people keep complaining that high elves and blood elves are identical.
What other good ideas exist to make them BOTH distinct, unique and interesting at the same time?

[Deleted]

High Elves would be amazing!

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Traycor love your ideas and concept art! good job! <3

[Traycor]

Allerian Stronghold is stuck in the TBC timeline limbo, and may not even exist now because Outland is falling apart by the minute.

Auric Sunchaser was at the Sunwell already, so he isn't stuck in Outland. But I imagine his visit to the Sunwell was a one time deal.

[corebit]

Zaladalari, dark iron, maghar orcs, etc also exist for a while, right? I honestly don't see the problem.

You're not understanding my point. All these other races you listed are living breathing beings and they can always breed more, hence that's where playable characters come from. New Undead elves can only be created by Arthas or the present Lich King, or maybe even the DK player, but then you'd have to explain why the Ebon Blade faction allies with the Horde in the first place.

[RangerDaz]

snip

Oh, by the way Traycor, congrats on the 80 pages on your silver covenant high elf thread



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You're not understanding my point. All these other races you listed are living breathing beings and they can always breed more, hence that's where playable characters come from. New Undead elves can only be created by Arthas or the present Lich King, or maybe even the DK player, but then you'd have to explain why the Ebon Blade faction allies with the Horde in the first place.

Corebit, what you said above i agree with you.

It's just that Dark Rangers and San'layn exist in WoW lore for a while now, all created by Arthas at the time of warcraft 3. They just aren't playable, just like high elves.
I think it would be a time for Sylvanas to unite them and bring them to the horde, playable that is.

[Evangeliste]

I'm surprised this is still going...

I suspect poor Blizzard are just going to hope this situation disappears as many others.

[Deleted]

I'm surprised this is still going...

I suspect poor Blizzard are just going to hope this situation disappears as many others.

not really, they have acknowledged that High Elves are a community favourite and are one of the most highly requested allied races and no allied race is off teh table

[Obelisk Kai]

Hey Kai,

Here are my thoughts about what you said:



Do remember that Chronicles wants to retcon all the past lore of WoW. It can't retcon what hasn't been released yet. Maybe in the future they will change their minds again, for gameplay reasons. We have a very good example: Argus Soul. It was never mentioned in chronicles, and Azeroth was always mentioned as the last world soul. and surprise, surprise, Argus had also a soul that was known to Sargeras. They retconned even the Chronicles ingame for Gameplay reasons. So Chronicles is exactly what it is: A compilation and retcon all all the existing warcraft lore. All the lore to be released in the future, everything can change again (but no major or drastic changes, of course).

So just because Chronicles doesn't emphasise High Elves (and Void Elves as well), doesn't mean they won't have an important role in the future.

I would disagree. The point of chronicle is to collate, review and update the lore. To tidy up twenty years of sometimes messy storytelling and to produce a cohesive whole as a basis for the future. Now, this is pertinent because having invested so much effort into going through all the lore and stories,Blizzard is extremely unlikely to go through it again. They finally have a solid base of lore they can now go back to in order to inform the development of future content.

As for your example of Argus, I would, again disagree. Just because they referred to Azeroth as 'the final Titan' does not mean that the existence of Argus is a retcon. If the final Titan were a title to be taken literally, you would have to discount Sargeras himself as well as the other Titans who merely lost their physical bodies, yet persisted in existence. The phrase 'final titan' probably means the last Titan discovered, as you might refer to the last player in a team roster as 'the final player'.
Remember, a retcon is something that overwrites previously established canon. New lore that does not contradict previously established canon is just that, new lore.

The lack of focus on High Elves is also understandable. The Blood Elves, who lest we forget are the High Elves of the WoW franchise, receive a lot of attention, with whole sections of the story devoted to them. The High Elves who remained with the Alliance aren't mentioned at all following the fall of Dalaran, and the last mention is of Quel'Dorei who journeyed with Jaina to Theramore where many likely died in Garrosh's bombing. The one area I thought there would be some mention of the high elves was in the Wrath of the Lich King chapters, but the Silver Covenant received no mention whatsoever.

The lack of emphasis on the Void Elves is understandable as they have just come into existence and their story will be that of the wider void versus light conflict that will not only form the core of the game's story going forward, but the story of the thalassian peoples as they divide into light and void focused groups.

I am convinced, given the new plot paradigm of light versus dark, that the Void Elves are destined to play a major role in the future of the game, particularly Alleria and Umbric as the two Void Elf leaders (even if Alleria is a different sort of Void Elf). The Thalassian storyline makes the most sense as reflecting this new paradigm. High Elves of the Alliance have no place in that new dichotomy. A dichotomy by definition involves only two things after all.

I think you just hit the main core of the discussion here, and that is exactly what i have been saying.
I is really not about what we players think it is possible, not possible, the lore permits or not permits.
They will change what they want, because they own the copywrites of the franchise.

However they do listen to player feedback, and that is what we can give them.
So each one of us can give the opinion of what we feel it is best for the franchise, but the last word is always theirs.

That Blizzard can change anything they want is true, but it is not an argument I wager is worthy of much respect. Firstly, because it is not an argument. It is a statement. Where you to claim that Blizzard could introduce a race sentient bananas as the next Alliance race, I would have to concede the point because they CAN do that if they wish. But you might wish to object to that example on the grounds that it is obviously ridiculous. Which it is.

Yet within the context of the world Blizzard has created, which every out of game comment has backed up, which even the very world itself reflects, High Elves in the Alliance are not a viable group. Not only is their core population too thin but the real killer is that there is nothing truly differentiating them from Blood Elves beyond political allegiance. If we therefore regard the lore as set...and as I've argued, the purpose of Chronicle is to do just that, then Blizzard cannot make High Elves viable without a massive, obvious, retcon. Even Traycor's designs would be a retcon, an attempt to force a new identity on the remaining High Elves, not for a consistent in game reason but as an excuse to say they are different from Blood Elves. Blizzard adding High Elves in other words is a brutal retcon, one that rips away the curtain and shatters suspension of disbelief. It would dwarf the biggest retcon the game has seen to date, that of the Draenei-Eredar connection. People could accept that retcon as the events altered did not take place in the timeline of the game itself. Changing High Elves of the Alliance would be alter to their status as a peripheral, vanishing people in away that everyone would notice and which would run counter to the narrative as we have experienced it this past decade.

And no, the Silver Covenant is not the face of a strong Alliance force. I know they've been involved in several story moments over the years, but that doesn't change the fact it's likely the same Elves each time working together as a dispossessed militia. You could of course argue Void Elves are the same, and I guess they are, but Void Elves and the LF Draenei are excused by being genuinely different from their parent races. High Elves are identical to Blood Elves, and I don't think they can be credibly differentiated from them. Traycor is trying, true, but he is also heavily cribbing from Wildhammer Dwarves. Blizzard might want to add Wildhammer Dwarves one day, and I doubt they will cramp their design by handing over the WH Dwarf theme to the few High Elves. The High Elves already have their own theme...it just happens to be identical to the Farstriders of the Blood Elves.

Well here in my opinion is the best feedback you gave in this reply: the question of uniqueness between elven races, and if cosmetic alternatives to void elves to make them look more high elvish make sense or not.

I do agree if High Elves ever come out, they need to be different from Blood Elves, so they don't ruin each other, and that both alternatives sound cool for the player. And i also do agree that the hand and feet shades we see in void elves (just like we see it in demon hunters) would look strange in high elves.

Well I think I answered a lot of this above, so I'll just reiterate that the motive of adding a group of High Elves to the Alliance that looked different from Blood Elves is the very motive that likely inspired the creation of Void Elves. And you have seen how the High Elf hardcore rejected Void Elves out of hand because they weren't proper High Elves.

I don't think it's possible to differentiate High Elves of the Alliance and Blood Elves. I know some people are trying, but what they create doesn't look right. And what does look right is already playable.

Those are my thoughts.

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not really, they have acknowledged that High Elves are a community favourite and are one of the most highly requested allied races and no allied race is off teh table

Races that are already playable are probably off the table. Green Orcs, Darkspear Trolls, Blood/High Elves etc.

[Deleted]

discord.gg/jsfDcZx High Elves supporters we now have a discord <3 The more people joining the merrier!