1. #14801
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly I don't think it's relevant for the most part, cause at best it just means a clear separation between current player options, and NPC options; If blue eye colors are added for Blood Elves in the future, they are going to be a new asset added with the ability to change eye color regardless of face. So if BE's get blue eyes, they were never gonna be the same eyes HE npc's have.

    Basically, I don't think we are seeing any groundwork for Shadowlands in terms of the tech that will allow for custom eye color, they just only separated playable from NPC options -and as far as I know, they didn't even get to change DR eye color so far-
    "DR eye color"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    High Elf exile eyes have either been left alone or, far more mysteriously, replaced with death knight eyes. Death Knight eyes ARE blue, but they are not the blue expected for a thalassian elf.

    If blue eyes are intended to be added as part of the character customization pass in Shadowlands for Blood Elves, they simply may not be ready yet. After all, eye colours are now housed on skins rather than separately. They will be separated out for the Shadowlands expansion, allowing us to mix eye colour choice with skin type choice. As, a result, doing something thalassian blue eyes may not have been regarded as worth it at this point in time.
    But, yeah, I would probably concur with you both that if blue eyes are going to be an option for blood elves in 9.0, they're likely going to be separate from the current NPC model.

    I'd be interested to see, should blood elves guy blue, whether they'll bother converting the high elf NPCs to the new look or if they'll just leave them as is. I think that'd be telling.

  2. #14802
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I am afraid it is appropriate to describe speculations on 8.3.5 as baseless when we have confirmation from that 8.3.5 is not happening.
    Except we don't. "We don't have plans" does not equal "we are confirming it's not happening". For all we know, they do have something being developed, but don't want to say anything as they're unsure if it'll be ready or good enough. Blizzard has 'burned' itself in the past by promising things that did not happen. Path of Titans and Dance Studio, for example.

    The second response confuses me, my point is that as allied races are going to be a lot rarer in future
    You said "they don't have any content to put in a hypothetical 8.3.5" and I replied that this is not true.

    You seem to keep missing the point here. A 'neutral' race in terms of faction composition merely means the race is available to both sides, not that the racial factions are themselves neutral.
    Except that's not "neutrality". Want to pursue that line of argumentation? Fine. But use the correct words. The Thalassian elves would not be neutral if high elves were added to the Alliance, just like they did not become neutral when void elves were ass-pulled into the Alliance.

    In terms of 'moving away from magic', this seems to be a statement that is difficult to square. Most exiles encountered so far are either mages using magic who live in Dalaran, or are former Farstriders living in Dalaran. If they were 'moving away from magic' as you claim then setting up home in what is an arcane junkie's equivalent of a crack house is a very strange move. Also, the elves of Quel'Danil managed to get themselves all killed because they meddled with magic. What seems to be happening here is that the cold turkey approach of the elves of the Quel'lithien lodge (the source of which is of dubious canonicity in one of the old mangas by the way, I don't think this anti magic ethos has been demonstrated in game but I am open to correction) has been extrapolated by pro High Elf commentators across all the exiles to imply they share the same anti magic ethos with no real evidence of support of that proposition and plentiful evidence to debunk it.

    Racials are based partly on culture and partly on biology. Both of which the exiles share almost completely with the Blood Elves.
    Again: "they would likely not have the 'arcane torrent' racial, due to their refusal to drain mana from living beings, therefore they would not have 'excess mana to discharge', which is the reason for that racial's existence." That is one cultural difference.

    Also: they would also likely not have 'enchanting' racial. Or the 'arcane resistance' and 'arcane acuity' racials. All due to them moving away from depending on magic." At no point I said "quitting cold turkey" or move away from magic completely. I simply said they would stop depending on magic. The high elves could have learned to not depend on something like the Sunwell due to their experience with the destruction of the Sunwell. That can be another cultural difference AND 'biological' too.

    But Blizzard being able to change their minds isn't some massive revelation, that is always presumed. What is challenged is the assertion that because they changed their minds in the past they are definitely going to do so again. It is therefore worth pointing out why each of these u-turns happened and how they do not correlate to this particular debate.
    Absolutely no one is saying that. No one. All we're saying is that they can change their minds, because people like you like to repeat, ad nauseum, "Blizzard has told you 'no', it's not going to happen".

    Night Elf lore did not stop when Azshara broke the world.

    The Blood Elf model and Blood Elf lore are the high elf model and high elf lore.
    The high elf lore did not stop with the schism, either. It branched off, just like the night elf/nightborne. The branching off being more recent is irrelevant, in my opinion, because the two groups have already shown to be different, with the blood elves, despite being all 'holy' now, still don't shy away from going down darker paths, with the usage of magic that is practically necromancy: anima.

    Both of which are on the same faction as their parents,
    Everything the void elves have, can be replicated to the blood elves. Hell, the void elves are blood elves. The worgen curse can also be quick and easily replicated to Stormwind humans.

    I fail to see how you can possibly be right. If they change their minds on something they have the capacity to actually effect that change. If we argue about something we argue on internet forums instead. The opinion of someone with power to affect change is superior to the opinion of those without that power. That is a fundamental given of pretty much everything.
    The point of this thread is that the developers' opinions are not some "sacred, immutable word-of-god holy scripture". The entire point of this thread is that we want the developers to change their minds. Which is why saying "the developers disagree with you" is meaningless.

    The canon chronicles confirmed he effectively abdicated by betraying his people.
    Again: wrong. All the Chronicles did was confirm that a big group of blood elves decided to stop Kael'Thas, not that he "effectively abdicated from the throne".

    I looked at the other images afterwards to confirm I was correct, but the point stood I can tell them apart.
    I don't believe you. The only viable option is that you are lying. You could not tell them apart. At best, you guessed correctly. Their model and silhouette are the exact same.

    Kul Tiran differentiation seems to be either a product of environmental factors, throwbacks to Vrykul cross breeding, or a combination of both. However their relative isolation for the past two millenia and the fact that this body type has not manifested outside Kul Tiras demonstrates that this appears to be unique to the island. Perhaps we will get a firmer explanation someday beyond evolution.
    They did not leave "in relative isolation". Kul'Tiras was originally close to Baradin Bay and Gilneas, and only after the Cataclysm hit that they were pushed off further away from the mainland.

    Conversely, the exiles and blood elves have been separated for just over a decade and they can individually live for thousands of years. Physical differentiation among individuals of the same race and same generation of the level needed to justify a new allied race is therefore impossible to justify. Hence the use of void magic to create a genuine variant.
    Wrong. You don't know the "level of differentiation" that is required, so stop acting like you do. Void elves have shown that two races can have the exact same body model and silhouette, even in opposing factions. Skin color, hair color, and hair style are also unlikely to be a requirement since those are quite often hidden by armor.
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  3. #14803
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That it is the 'most asked for customization' cannot be judged in isolation, as almost every other request on a potential race customization can be, because of the inevitable consequences of granting that request. That Void Elves would have access to human range skin tones and this would diminish the limited differences currently in existence between Void Elves and Blood/high elves. This is infringing on the aesthetic quality of already playable race, particularly important considering the entire reason Void Elves were created was to give the Alliance something like a high elf that did not infringe on the Blood/high elf fantasy too much.
    It's not in isolation. There are also people asking for a void shade closer to Alleria or things of that nature too. But I'm merely stating what has been most asked for, by the fans of void elves, by the non-fans, and by some pro-high elfers. Stating what's the most asked for isn't in any way ignoring what other customizations have been discussed so unsure why you're making it out to be like my statement said that.

    Also, considering that it's not hard to find people disappointed with Mechagnomes, I don't think Blizzard is making decisions on what customization is available or added based on "infringing on aesthetic quality" as this argument can be used against those wishing Mechagnomes could wear pants or wishing Nightborne looked more like the NPCs.

    And finally, Blizzard said "something like a blood elf", not a high elf. Stop twisting statements. They also didn't say anything along the lines of "here are your version of high elves and that's all you're getting" which is what you're trying to insinuate and you should stop that.

    High Elves are a possibility, what form they happen to come in should be decided to be added is up in the air (referring to Afrasiabi comment). But in no form is the statement "High Elves aren't happening" or "Void Elves are your High Elves" ever true as of Blizzard's statements regarding what's being requested in this thread so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    So while it is 'up in the air' and we do have to wait see what is decided, what must be borne in mind are the unique factors at play on this particular request for this particular race. Had these factors not been an issue when the initial allied races were being discussed, they likely wouldn't have bothered creating Void Elves in the first place and simply gone straight to the exiles. As it is, just as preserving the identity of the Blood Elves and the integrity of the Horde were the reasons as to why Ion's off-hand suggestion that high elves could be possible in a sub-race system ultimately turned out to be unworkable, so Afrasiabi's similar comment is likely fated to encounter similar resistance for the same reasons.
    You can't say with confidence why they went for a certain choice over another so I'm not sure why you keep doing it unless you were in the private meeting where they were discussing High Elves. Blizzard themselves have never mentioned anything along the lines of, "we were first thinking of High Elves but decided they were too similar so went with Void Elves instead."

    It doesn't have a lot of strength, just like to me it's very peculiar that the producer going around advertising Void Elves also happens to have an NPC of both herself, her significant other, and their pet also included in the launch as Void Elf NPCs. I can try and attempt a "this was that producer's idea all along!" but there's no concrete proof of anything and therefore it's not something to try and argue in any manner other than if you want to keep being asked where is proof of your statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    If people are demanding the aesthetic that much, that aesthetic choice is already available. Imagine for a second people were asking to play Dark Iron Dwarves with human range skin tones what the likely reaction would be. They would be told to play an ordinary Dwarf of course. The same principle applies here. The inevitable retort, that Dark Iron Dwarves and ordinary Dwarves share a faction whereas Void Elves and Blood Elves don't, merely compounds the point that faction identity is at play in the Void Elf-Blood Elf question in a way it is nowhere else.
    Here is where you are again trying to isolate an argument on a topic that is contextual. 1) Dark Irons all look like 'a Dark Iron', so the same principle doesn't apply. Your principle would apply only if Dark Irons were introduced as Void Dark Irons or Pink fairy Dark Irons and then you were telling people "well here is your Alliance Dark Iron" and again if you're focusing strictly on looks you're already not making a good argument because the faction and aesthetics are inseparable in this topic. Yet you keep only focusing on either 1) Aesthetics or 2) Faction separately.



    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The issue of course is that the entire package is represented by the Blood Elves with one singular difference, the political faction the Blood Elves were on. Had Blood Elves been granted to the Alliance I sincerely doubt the pro High Elf community would have protested that these were not their high elves on the basis of an adjective alone. I sincerely doubt it.
    It's not the entire package save for "one singular difference". People have been describing different hairstyles, different idle stances, different racials, different faces, different mounts, different heritage armor. You are the only one treating it as "These people are asking for Blood Elf but on Alliance" which frankly is what Void Elves are and if that's truly what people wanted then this thread and the many others like it elsewhere wouldn't exist.

    Furthermore, if people simply wanted to play a race that looks like a Blood Elf , the option does exist on the Horde. Yet countless years of asking for High Elves should show in general that "hmm, must be more than looks then" because as you state a similar 'aesthetic' is already existing on the Horde side.

    The more you continue to only isolate looks or faction without taking both into context, the more you're going to keep misrepresenting what's being requested and the more silly it continues to look when people have attempted multiple to set it straight with you.

    It just further and further reinforces you're trying to prevent a specific aesthetic from being on the Alliance with an unusual amount of fervor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As faction is the sole differentiating factor of worth, the question became whether adding a duplicate to the other faction at the cost of faction diversity and identity was worth it. It is not, duplicating a core race of one faction to the other inevitably degrades both factions, both the faction that loses a monopoly on the core race that constitutes a part of it's identity and the faction that receives the duplicate, who would have lost something of genuine difference to make room for the duplicate and which is being reshaped to be more like the other side. Once it is appreciated how much faction diversity is a concern, the elegance of the Void Elf solution becomes apparent. A genuine variant, not a duplicate.
    If faction is the sole differentiating worth, why are racials/mounts/heritage armor not a duplicate of Blood Elves then for the Void Elves. Again, fact is that there's a whole package that comes with all the playable race options.

    Now that we're getting into increased customizations, this would be appropriate feature where your arguments would make more sense. But as the overall request has been to have a "race option" of High Elves on Alliance then everything that comes with a race option is of worth.

    For the bold: 1) Just because you consider it a genuine variant and not duplicate doesn't mean others do. I've already linked the recent Reddit post where comments (which were upvoted by many more people than the active participants in this thread) people refer to them as purple Blood Elves and see them just as that.

    2) Following that Night Elves (Nightborne) and Void Elves (Blood Elves) were given to the opposite and there hasn't been a tearing down from the community of the game as we know it because of "duplicating a core race to the other faction" I'd say you're continuing with hyperbole that has no weight.

    Also yes, Nightborne are Night Elves in the same vein that you refer to Blood Elves as of the High Elf race. Highborne was a societal term for ALL Night Elves, it was the societal term for the upper class. Therefore that you admit Nightborne are bringing the core Highborne fantasy over to the Horde that means they took a piece of Night Elf fantasy that previously only belonged to the Alliance and brought it over to the Horde.

    The Void Elves do this too by bringing over all the Blood Elf history (and before that, High Elf history before High Elf/Blood Elf split) to the Alliance. Therefore the cat is already out of the bag in what you're trying to say should be prevented the "losing of monopoly of a core race". Alliance no longer has a monopoly on Night Elven things and Horde no longer have a monopoly on High Elven things (they never did to begin with though since High Elves were part of the Alliance since Vanilla WoW).

    Highborne (or quel'dorei, meaning "children of noble birth" in Darnassian),[3] were the upper class and a sect of the ancient night elf civilization[4][5] composed of the favored servitors of Queen Azshara.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Highborne

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    "DR eye color"?
    I think how they mean Dark Ranger eye color is Red? Is it not red anymore currently?
    Last edited by Pennem; 2020-01-16 at 06:13 PM.

  4. #14804
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    "DR eye color"?.
    Dark Ranger. AFAIK both Blood Elves and Night Elves are missing their red eyes now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Nightborne are not representative of the Night Elf fantasy. The Night Elves are the warcraft spin on Wood Elves and Dark Elves, seen in such things as their druidism and having a primarily female fighting force.

    In contrast, the Nightborne are representative of the highborne fantasy, something the Night Elves consciously turned their backs on. The highborne fantasy is defined by magic use, city living and a certain arrogance to the lesser races. In other words, the Nightborne are a variant of the Blood Elf fantasy, albeit nocturnal themed rather than dirunal themed and using a variation of the night elf model.

    It is the highborne therefore that forms a part of the Horde, whereas those who rejected the Highborne constitute the modern day Night Elves.
    Considering that the Shren'dalar Highborne rejoined NE society in Cata, this is just not true.

    More over, they are overlapping fantasies even when we don't count the current NE Highborne. The problem with your argument is that for some reason, any sort of diurnal elf just can't be different enough, even when we literally have two types of nocturnal elf which mostly exist on two ends of the spectrum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Void Elves are capable of transforming other elves into void elves. Anyone who wishes to indulge the fantasy of an always loyal to the Alliance exile should be encouraged to roleplay their void elf as a former exile. That option credibly exists for those who wish to partake of it.

    The only thing differentiating the exiles from the Blood Elves is that attachment to the Alliance. That is not enough to differentiate them from Blood Elves.
    You are downright wrong about this until we get confirmation the process can be replicated. That's the issue right now; there's no lore or about even the possibility for the process to be replicated safely. At best you can be a High Elf that dabbles in Void, which wouldn't explain being blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They did move some elves to be visually distinct through non biological explanations. That was where the Void Elves came from. Suggesting Blizzard try again but do so in a way that results in an elf a lot more like a Blood/high elf seems somewhat pointless given the reaction they got the first time from the hardcore, and because the Void Elves are likely as close to a Blood/high elf as they were willing to get. After all, in the grand scheme of things, all they changed on Void Elves was the skin tone range.
    And again, you completely dismiss the fact -the fact that has been repéated to you ad nauseam- That Void Elves are Blood Elves are NOT High Elves, and no, there is no confirmation so far VE's can make more of their kind. Could you stop going around circles?

  5. #14805
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except we don't. "We don't have plans" does not equal "we are confirming it's not happening". For all we know, they do have something being developed, but don't want to say anything as they're unsure if it'll be ready or good enough. Blizzard has 'burned' itself in the past by promising things that did not happen. Path of Titans and Dance Studio, for example.
    Except, we're not getting 8.3.5. Anyone with a modicum of common sense can tell that. We don't need literal confirmation. Blizzard speaks about patch content WELL before it is released, 8.3 is a great example of that. They've said there are no plans for 8.3.5, which is a PR way of saying, "8.3.5 is confirmed not happening."

    You read between the lines only when it favors you, it seems.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You said "they don't have any content to put in a hypothetical 8.3.5" and I replied that this is not true.
    Do you know something we don't? Which content would that be? There's not been a single whisper about any new content for an 8.3.5, and a statement was even issued saying there aren't plans for one.

    You're simply being contrarian because... well, that's what you do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except that's not "neutrality". Want to pursue that line of argumentation? Fine. But use the correct words. The Thalassian elves would not be neutral if high elves were added to the Alliance, just like they did not become neutral when void elves were ass-pulled into the Alliance.
    As a Pandaren, you made a character, and had to choose your faction at a certain point. But regardless, the Alliance Pandaren are the same race as the Horde Pandaren. The only difference in what you suggest is that the Horde/Alliance faction choice would already be made for a playable High Elf. The races are still identical, therefore it would be the same race on both sides.

    That is literally the easiest thing to understand. How that's lost on you is baffling, and I'll assume you're just being contrarian again. Same race, separate factions? Neutral race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again: "they would likely not have the 'arcane torrent' racial, due to their refusal to drain mana from living beings, therefore they would not have 'excess mana to discharge', which is the reason for that racial's existence." That is one cultural difference.

    Also: they would also likely not have 'enchanting' racial. Or the 'arcane resistance' and 'arcane acuity' racials. All due to them moving away from depending on magic." At no point I said "quitting cold turkey" or move away from magic completely. I simply said they would stop depending on magic. The high elves could have learned to not depend on something like the Sunwell due to their experience with the destruction of the Sunwell. That can be another cultural difference AND 'biological' too.
    All hypotheticals. Abilities alone don't comprise the race, and it's highly unreasonable to think there will be two Thalassian Elf models on the same faction. I mean, it's foolhardy to think that's a possible outcome. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Not at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Absolutely no one is saying that. No one. All we're saying is that they can change their minds, because people like you like to repeat, ad nauseum, "Blizzard has told you 'no', it's not going to happen".
    Changing one's mind about what's for dinner does not set a precedent for whether they'll change their mind to rob a bank. People change their minds all the time, and you're acting like there's a person who HASN'T changed their mind before. It is not a precedent, plain and simple. If they had given in to giving the Horde Ogres after over a decade of saying "No" that would be the precedent you're attempting to make. But that hasn't happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The point of this thread is that the developers' opinions are not some "sacred, immutable word-of-god holy scripture". The entire point of this thread is that we want the developers to change their minds. Which is why saying "the developers disagree with you" is meaningless.
    If I own a house, and in my opinion is that it looks better in blue and your opinion is that is looks better in red, but you're just passerby... I assure you, my opinion is more important than yours. It's mine, therefore my opinion and ideas concerning what's mine far outweigh yours. Same with Blizzard. Remember that Terms of Use you agree to and how it fully states your subscription doesn't come with any ownership of the game and its parts? The game and everything in it is Blizzard's. Therefore their opinion on Blizzard properties is more important than yours. This is made obvious by what's available in the game currently. Void Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again: wrong. All the Chronicles did was confirm that a big group of blood elves decided to stop Kael'Thas, not that he "effectively abdicated from the throne".
    Again just being contrarian. He failed to serve his people dutifully by aligning with Illidan and subsequently the Legion. He abdicated from the Throne when he decided to betray them. You're arguing a level of nuance that is so utterly minute, one can only assume you're just disagreeing for the sake of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't believe you. The only viable option is that you are lying. You could not tell them apart. At best, you guessed correctly. Their model and silhouette are the exact same.
    The hairstyles differentiate them. They are literally not the same thing, because the hairstyle is different and unique to Void Elves. Contrarian again, and presumptuous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Wrong. You don't know the "level of differentiation" that is required, so stop acting like you do. Void elves have shown that two races can have the exact same body model and silhouette, even in opposing factions. Skin color, hair color, and hair style are also unlikely to be a requirement since those are quite often hidden by armor.
    For someone always claiming that there will be different tattoos, mounts, hairstyles, etc. You sure seem to have an idea of what level of differentiation it requires to support the High Elf situation. Yet, we don't? What makes you superior to knowing what's acceptable differentiation and what isn't? In fact, the level of differentiation required is apparent in Blood Elves and Void Elves. Purple skin, tentacles, and a huge infusion of forbidden magic to genetically alter the Thalassian Elves. Blizzard made the level of differentiation apparent. This is the case for all Allied Races. Lightforged, Highmountain, Void Elf, Kul'Tiran, Dark Iron...

    This is unfortunately not the case for High Elves. The amount of differentiation required would ruin the High Elven lore, which according to you, is the driving force behind this obsession. Ergo,
    no matter what Blizzard does, you would not be happy. Just like no one is happy with Void Elves, the obvious compromise that was made when it would have made the MOST sense to add High Elves. We're talking about when Alleria returns. What better time to reintroduce them? There won't be one.

    Voila, Void Elves.

    The cake has been baked, sadly, it's just not the flavor you wanted.

  6. #14806
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    You read between the lines only when it favors you, it seems.
    I don't. Claiming as a fact there is confirmation, when there isn't, is just wrong.

    Do you know something we don't? Which content would that be?
    If you read my last few posts (y'know, to inform yourself?), instead of just grabbing my latest post, you'd know.

    The races are still identical, therefore it would be the same race on both sides.
    So what. The void elves are also identical to the blood elves, save for skin tone and styles of hair/facial hair, which are hidden by armor. They possess the exact same character model. And lore-wise, again, the void elves and blood elves are the same thing, since both possess the exact same lore, up to the point of Umbric's group being banished from Silvermoon. The point is: the cat is already out of the bag.

    All hypotheticals.
    Well, duh. When we're talking about possibilities for the future, we're talking about "hypotheticals".

    it's highly unreasonable to think there will be two Thalassian Elf models on the same faction.
    You say that while we have lightforged draenei and draenei in the same faction... highmountain tauren and tauren in the same faction...

    Changing one's mind about what's for dinner does not set a precedent for whether they'll change their mind to rob a bank.
    Nowhere near the same thing. In your example, the latter is a crime. Your 'reductio ad absurdum' failed.

    If I own a house, and in my opinion is that it looks better in blue and your opinion is that is looks better in red, but you're just passerby...
    Except I'm not a passerby. I 'live' in that 'house' as well, paying rent.

    Again just being contrarian. He failed to serve his people dutifully by aligning with Illidan and subsequently the Legion. He abdicated from the Throne when he decided to betray them. You're arguing a level of nuance that is so utterly minute, one can only assume you're just disagreeing for the sake of it.
    Aligning with Illidan is what 'saved' the blood elves, since Illidan is the one that taught 'mana vampirism' to the blood elves, and it was Illidan that supplied the fel crystals that adorned and powered Silvermoon. Kael'Thas, while aligned with Illidan, also captured and sent M'uru to the blood elves to experiment and feed on. And even after it became public that Kael'Thas sided with the Burning Legion, blood elves still flocked to his side.

    The hairstyles differentiate them. They are literally not the same thing, because the hairstyle is different and unique to Void Elves. Contrarian again, and presumptuous.
    You accuse me of sticking too much to details, and yet here you do the same. Hairstyles are meaningless since the overwhelming majority of the helms in the game hide your hair style.

    For someone always claiming that there will be different tattoos, mounts, hairstyles, etc. You sure seem to have an idea of what level of differentiation it requires to support the High Elf situation.
    That's the level of physical differentiation between blood elves and void elves: color and hair styles.

    Purple skin, tentacles, and a huge infusion of forbidden magic to genetically alter the Thalassian Elves.
    Saying "tentacles" is meaningless. It's all just a glow effect on a tendril of hair. It doesn't move or behave in any way different than hair, and again, hidden by helm, unlike the male draenei's tentacles. THOSE are not hidden by helm. Or a female draenei's horns, or a blood elf's ears.

    Last, but not least, if I can give you one advice: tone down on the underlines and bold. Those are used to give emphasis to certain words or passages within a paragraph. But if you underline or bolden the entire paragraph, it loses its intended effect and just looks... obnoxious, as if you're just shouting everything. I remember Syndrome's words (from the movie The Incredibles): "if everyone is special, then no one is special."
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  7. #14807
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Dark Ranger. AFAIK both Blood Elves and Night Elves are missing their red eyes now.
    Ah! Yeah, I noticed that messing around with them in the wowhead Dressing Room pre-patch. I had assumed they would be fixed or reverted to the usual look when 8.3 goes live.

    Makes me hopeful that they're putting Dark Rangers in as a skin option for blood elves/Forsaken.

    I know Kai and others have voiced opposition to the idea of making undead elves a skin option. But I don't think it's too much more absurd than switching from a Blackrock to a Warsong on a whim with how drastically different those two clans look.

  8. #14808
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    I like how one has green eyes and the other one has blue. But both are alliance soldiers.
    Not green, teal.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  9. #14809
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Ah! Yeah, I noticed that messing around with them in the wowhead Dressing Room pre-patch. I had assumed they would be fixed or reverted to the usual look when 8.3 goes live.

    Makes me hopeful that they're putting Dark Rangers in as a skin option for blood elves/Forsaken.

    I know Kai and others have voiced opposition to the idea of making undead elves a skin option. But I don't think it's too much more absurd than switching from a Blackrock to a Warsong on a whim with how drastically different those two clans look.
    Honestly? Same, that we didn't get the easy implementing that HE NPC skin eyes got makes me think they may want to do something better with them? And I hope they wouldn't do that just to make the NPC's look better, but because they want to bring it up to standards of a playable option.

    Red eyes for BE's is right there on my list of wishes for customization if we don't get San'layn or Venthir lol

  10. #14810
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly? Same, that we didn't get the easy implementing that HE NPC skin eyes got makes me think they may want to do something better with them? And I hope they wouldn't do that just to make the NPC's look better, but because they want to bring it up to standards of a playable option.

    Red eyes for BE's is right there on my list of wishes for customization if we don't get San'layn or Venthir lol
    I'll be perfectly content with some Farstrider tattoos but I'd love to get "dark rangers", blue eyes and full beards!

  11. #14811
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    I'll be perfectly content with some Farstrider tattoos but I'd love to get "dark rangers", blue eyes and full beards!
    I'd be in for all of them, but yeah, If I get red eyes I really can live without the rest!

  12. #14812
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Not green, teal.
    Yes, teal!

  13. #14813
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't. Claiming as a fact there is confirmation, when there isn't, is just wrong.
    "We have no plans for 8.3.5." Is all the confirmation I need. You're probably the only person that thinks there's even a possibility of it. You're splitting hairs just to be contrarian. Stating they have no plans is all that needs to be said. Do you really need it spelled out for you plainly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If you read my last few posts (y'know, to inform yourself?), instead of just grabbing my latest post, you'd know.
    I read your suggested content. I'm asking if you know of something (you know, that's CONFIRMED) that we don't. Because them saying "We have no plans" is stronger than your theoretical content they could push. Content, of which, there has been no mention. Patches don't happen overnight, and there would be plenty of forewarning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So what. The void elves are also identical to the blood elves, save for skin tone and styles of hair/facial hair, which are hidden by armor. They possess the exact same character model. And lore-wise, again, the void elves and blood elves are the same thing, since both possess the exact same lore, up to the point of Umbric's group being banished from Silvermoon. The point is: the cat is already out of the bag.
    Thanks for proving my point. I think you should look up identical. It clearly means something other than what you think it means. You often confuse what "exactly" means, so I think that's the root problem here.

    Void Elves undergo a transformative infusion of Void Magic. Would you be open to High Elves undergoing a similar process to sate your desire? I think I know the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, duh. When we're talking about possibilities for the future, we're talking about "hypotheticals".
    Coming from someone who frequently misplaces their opinion for objective fact, it's hard to tell with you. So I wanted to remind you that what you're saying isn't real, and probably never will be given the actual facts at hand. You know, those objective, irrefutable, unarguable facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You say that while we have lightforged draenei and draenei in the same faction... highmountain tauren and tauren in the same faction...
    Fair point, but the race you're seeking already exists on the Horde save for their political and magical differences. They are the same people. A human that smokes and a human that doesn't smoke are both still humans. Because they staved off the magic cravings doesn't make them any less of the Elves that are on the Horde side, the Blood Elves, in this short of a time frame. We would need thousands upon thousands of years for the absence of magic to affect a genetic difference in Elves, OR, a Void Elf type scenario where are transformed suddenly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Nowhere near the same thing. In your example, the latter is a crime. Your 'reductio ad absurdum' failed.
    It didn't fail. I could use any vastly different topics to support my point. You're claiming that because they reverted their decision on Classic that they are likely to revert their decision on High Elves. That is, after all, the point you're trying to make. Thanks for proving me correct once again. Those decisions are nowhere near the same thing. If anything failed, your comprehension did.

    If you think reverting the Classic: WoW decision is even REMOTELY akin to giving the same race to two different factions, I've grossly overestimated your reasoning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I'm not a passerby. I 'live' in that 'house' as well, paying rent.
    And very clearly in the rental agreement, they told you you don't own shit. Therefore rendering your opinion secondary to theirs. It's quite clear in the Terms of Use. It'd help to read it before replying foolishly again. Your "rent" affords you server access, not an opinion on developmental decisions. Blizzard ain't Burger King.

    If you've ever paid rent in a place before, you should be well aware that permanent changes are up to the landlord's opinion, not yours. You want to paint the walls blue? You need your landlord's approval. Your opinion is secondary to the owner's. This is a simple concept.

    Your comparison utterly fails, and lends to my statement that your opinion is secondary to the owners'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Aligning with Illidan is what 'saved' the blood elves, since Illidan is the one that taught 'mana vampirism' to the blood elves, and it was Illidan that supplied the fel crystals that adorned and powered Silvermoon. Kael'Thas, while aligned with Illidan, also captured and sent M'uru to the blood elves to experiment and feed on. And even after it became public that Kael'Thas sided with the Burning Legion, blood elves still flocked to his side.
    Which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Kael'thas abdicated his throne the moment he failed his duty to the Quel'thalas tradition. 1 follower or a million doesn't mean he didn't abdicate it. Abdication is not contingent on if people remained loyal to him. He failed his duty as King of Quel'thalas after Anasterian died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You accuse me of sticking too much to details, and yet here you do the same. Hairstyles are meaningless since the overwhelming majority of the helms in the game hide your hair style.
    Irrelevant. Not every player hides their helmet. This is your subjective opinion, once again, trying to override the objective fact that the silhouettes you showed us were discernible by the unique hairstyle. I don't know what your problem is here. You chose the props to play with, and you're upset that we got it right.

    Hairstyles are meaningless? Says who? You? Did you collect data to make this assertion or are you just speaking for millions of people at once? I'm pretty sure if it was meaningless, they wouldn't have barbers and customization options that literally MILLIONS of people clamor for. Give me a break, dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's the level of physical differentiation between blood elves and void elves: color and hair styles.
    Exactly, which is not present in the case of Blood Elves and High Elves. They are the same race of people, just like a blue eyed human Democrat is the same as a green eyes human Republican. Their political beliefs and vices do not suddenly make them a different race. Tattoos and different mounts, again, would not make them a different race. You drive a Honda, I drive a Toyota. We're both still humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Saying "tentacles" is meaningless. It's all just a glow effect on a tendril of hair. It doesn't move or behave in any way different than hair, and again, hidden by helm, unlike the male draenei's tentacles. THOSE are not hidden by helm. Or a female draenei's horns, or a blood elf's ears.
    But it's not meaningless. The tentacles are there, aren't they? Irrefutably, they are, and not every player uses the Hide Helmet feature. Look how many times you've had to claim that features can be hidden by armor/helmet to justify your stance, as if that's acceptable. And I'm the one arguing in bad faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Last, but not least, if I can give you one advice: tone down on the underlines and bold. Those are used to give emphasis to certain words or passages within a paragraph. But if you underline or bolden the entire paragraph, it loses its intended effect and just looks... obnoxious, as if you're just shouting everything. I remember Syndrome's words (from the movie The Incredibles): "if everyone is special, then no one is special."
    I honestly did that a bit tongue in cheek towards you. You bold and underline things, in my opinion, unnecessarily. Forgive my sarcasm as it really has no place here.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2020-01-16 at 10:44 PM.

  14. #14814
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    "We have no plans for 8.3.5." Is all the confirmation I need.
    Good on you, but, again, it's not a 'confirmation it's not happening'.

    I read your suggested content. I'm asking if you know of something (you know, that's CONFIRMED) that we don't. Because them saying "We have no plans" is stronger than your theoretical content they could push. Content, of which, there has been no mention. Patches don't happen overnight, and there would be plenty of forewarning.
    I never claimed that I knew what "they are doing for 8.3.5". Kai made a statement that there is "no content for a hypothetical .5 patch", and I simply pointed out that there can be. Loyalists helping Sylvanas get to Icecrown, is another example.

    Thanks for proving my point. I think you should look up identical. It clearly means something other than what you think it means. You often confuse what "exactly" means, so I think that's the root problem here.
    There is no confusion.

    Void Elves undergo a transformative infusion of Void Magic. Would you be open to High Elves undergoing a similar process to sate your desire? I think I know the answer.
    Simply asking the question makes it clear you likely don't.

    Coming from someone who frequently misplaces their opinion for objective fact, it's hard to tell with you. So I wanted to remind you that what you're saying isn't real, and probably never will be given the actual facts at hand. You know, those objective, irrefutable, unarguable facts.
    You accuse me of "mistaking opinion for facts", and yet you do the exact same thing you accuse me of.

    Fair point, but the race you're seeking already exists on the Horde save for their political and magical differences. They are the same people. A human that smokes and a human that doesn't smoke are both still humans. Because they staved off the magic cravings doesn't make them any less of the Elves that are on the Horde side, the Blood Elves, in this short of a time frame. We would need thousands upon thousands of years for the absence of magic to affect a genetic difference in Elves, OR, a Void Elf type scenario where are transformed suddenly.
    "Race" is meaningless, since our characters are not a representative of the "whole "race"", just from one group within said race. High elves may be strikingly similar, physically-speaking, to the blood elves, but they're no longer the same group.

    It didn't fail.
    It did fail, because you basically equated "adding high elves to the Alliance" to "committing a crime lawfully punishable by incarceration".

    You're claiming that because they reverted their decision on Classic that they are likely to revert their decision on High Elves. That is, after all, the point you're trying to make.
    I go back to what I wrote earlier: you don't know what you're talking about. My argument was never that they "are likely to revert their decision", only that it is possible that they change their minds. A counter to the anti-high-elf claim that "Blizzard already said it's not happening".


    And very clearly in the rental agreement, they told you you don't own shit. Therefore rendering your opinion secondary to theirs. It's quite clear in the Terms of Use. It'd help to read it before replying foolishly again. Your "rent" affords you server access, not an opinion on developmental decisions. Blizzard ain't Burger King.

    If you've ever paid rent in a place before, you should be well aware that permanent changes are up to the landlord's opinion, not yours. You want to paint the walls blue? You need your landlord's approval. Your opinion is secondary to the owner's. This is a simple concept.

    Your comparison utterly fails, and lends to my statement that your opinion is secondary to the owners'.
    The landlord does not get to dictate how I decorate the room I'm renting. The landlord cannot dictate which color my walls should be painted.

    Which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Kael'thas abdicated his throne the moment he failed his duty to the Quel'thalas tradition.
    By that reasoning, all blood elves abdicated all their rights to Silvermoon when they took to "mana vampirism" since that went against "Quel'thalas tradition."

    Abdication is not contingent on if people remained loyal to him.
    It's not contingent on people leaving him, either.

    Irrelevant. Not every player hides their helmet. This is your subjective opinion, once again, trying to override the objective fact that the silhouettes you showed us were discernible by the unique hairstyle. I don't know what your problem is here. You chose the props to play with, and you're upset that we got it right.
    You do know you're backing up all my claims, here, by admitting that hair style is sufficient differentiation?

    But it's not meaningless. The tentacles are there, aren't they? Irrefutably, they are, and not every player uses the Hide Helmet feature. Look how many times you've had to claim that features can be hidden by armor/helmet to justify your stance, as if that's acceptable. And I'm the one arguing in bad faith?
    Those "tentacles" on the void elves' hair is no more "differentiating" than hair color. And I never wrote, in my post, that you're arguing "in bad faith".
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-01-17 at 02:40 AM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  15. #14815
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Yes, teal!
    Teal is high elf colour.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  16. #14816
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The landlord does not get to dictate how I decorate the room I'm renting. The landlord cannot dictate which color my walls should be painted.
    The rental agreement dictates what you can and can't do with the house/ place you're renting. And yes, they can dictate how you can or cannot decorate the room you're renting and what color the walls need to be. They can't dictate specifically what you can and can't decorate with, but they can say "no holes in the wall" and stuff like that which can affect what you can or can't put on the wall. If they want the walls all brown, then when you move out they have to be brown and if they're not, you get to pay to have them painted brown and possibly a hefty breach of lease charge if there's one in the lease.

    In this case, the rental agreement says you are renting THIS specific house and has provided you with plenty of options on how you can decorate it. You don't get to dictate ANYTHING, they have given you choices that you can freely do whatever you want with, based on the rules they've laid out.

  17. #14817
    Old God Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'd be in for all of them, but yeah, If I get red eyes I really can live without the rest!
    I would like Red eyes, not because of Dark Rangers, but mostly because BLOOD elves :P

    Also with the use of Anima, it could be explained (ah, i still want Sanlayn in the Horde, they could introduce Blood Magic to the Blood Elves)

  18. #14818
    I am Murloc! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    But, yeah, I would probably concur with you both that if blue eyes are going to be an option for blood elves in 9.0, they're likely going to be separate from the current NPC model.

    I'd be interested to see, should blood elves guy blue, whether they'll bother converting the high elf NPCs to the new look or if they'll just leave them as is. I think that'd be telling.
    Oh they will definitely be separate. Unhooking eye colour from the skins is one of the most fundamental changes they can make to character customization and one that is long, long overdue and will in fact be on every race in the game. I hope (allied races are up in the air).

    As for the particular case of blue eyes on Blood Elves, everyone will spin the results a different way. Should they be granted, as I think they should, then that is an extra customization option for Blood Elves. If they are not granted, pro High Elf commentators will argue they are being 'reserved' for the exiles.

    But we will not know until character customization is introduced in the Shadowlands alpha, so we are several months away from getting the information required to make an informed analysis.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    "If you want to be a fair skinned, light haired, blue eyed elf...sorry, the horde is there waiting for you"

    -Game Director Ion Hazzikostas

  19. #14819
    Field Marshal Frenchvince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Oh they will definitely be separate. Unhooking eye colour from the skins is one of the most fundamental changes they can make to character customization and one that is long, long overdue and will in fact be on every race in the game. I hope (allied races are up in the air).

    As for the particular case of blue eyes on Blood Elves, everyone will spin the results a different way. Should they be granted, as I think they should, then that is an extra customization option for Blood Elves. If they are not granted, pro High Elf commentators will argue they are being 'reserved' for the exiles.

    But we will not know until character customization is introduced in the Shadowlands alpha, so we are several months away from getting the information required to make an informed analysis.

    Yes, it is quite possible that blizzard makes the mistake of giving the color of blue eyes as a personalization option to the blood elves, they will then have overlooked the identity of the factions by not respecting the " faction haunts. "
    It will give even more possibilities for the customization options of the void elves, the blue eyes option but also the green eyes option, it is normal at the same time, they were former blood elves.

  20. #14820
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Oh they will definitely be separate. Unhooking eye colour from the skins is one of the most fundamental changes they can make to character customization and one that is long, long overdue and will in fact be on every race in the game. I hope (allied races are up in the air).

    As for the particular case of blue eyes on Blood Elves, everyone will spin the results a different way. Should they be granted, as I think they should, then that is an extra customization option for Blood Elves. If they are not granted, pro High Elf commentators will argue they are being 'reserved' for the exiles.

    But we will not know until character customization is introduced in the Shadowlands alpha, so we are several months away from getting the information required to make an informed analysis.
    Eye colour options will almost certainly be available and varied for the "normal" eyed races (humans, gnomes, orcs, dwarves etc) but I'm a little worried the likes of blood elves might be considerably more limited and customisation time might be invested in other areas (body markings, hair etc).

    I have a sinking feeling it might be the current two colours but no longer limited by face option. Just because of how much work they seem to be doing already on tweaking magical eye glows.

    I'd love for there to be an eye colour option for every form of magic a Thalassian might use though. Pyromancy orange, arcane purple, a retro white/blue for non-magic users and many others. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

    And yeah, if blood elves don't get blue, I think it will almost certainly fuel the "high elf of the gaps" thinking.

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