1. #14841
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The new starting experience slated for Shadowlands actually offers up a lot of new narrative leeway for the various races in WoW, as they'll no longer be locked in to the pre-set starting experiences in Classic through to BfA, instead sharing a specific scenario-like quest-chain on a heretofore unknown island. This is basically how they're working in the alternative PC models (e.g. Wildhammer Dwarves, non-Darkspear Trolls, etc. etc.) - as the original experiences kind of locked you into a specific extraction of a given race, but now the starting experience will be much more open and non-specific. With this new platform you could easily introduce new races without having to give them specific starting experiences (or no starting experience, such as with the Allied Races currently).

    I can easily see how this might foster the addition of even more race variants, perhaps up to and including the High Elven exiles in some capacity.
    Definitely, but it also introduces some ridiculous bits too like Dark Trolls being playable. It is kinda like you can essentially throw out what's been established as current as even BFA once Shadowlands releases because the increased customizations with it are not overly concerned (or even care seemingly) about any established lore.

    And by this I mean the Dark Trolls skin example, where in BFA there's an NPC saying she is the last of her kind.

    Now, I don't really care as I'm for far more options for every player to be able to customize their character's identity - especially in a feasible manner (Wildhammer for ex), but some options definitely appear to be "because it'd just be cool, established lore be damned".

    But bottom-line, I do agree. The generic/neutral starting zone allows for more variants without having to be tied down to each race's opening scene meaning players aren't as restricted in their origins as before. Players would get more freedom with how they choose to RP their character and those origins, especially with newer customization options opening those avenues up as well.

    It would mean putting High Elf options on Void Elves would be as feasible as Wildhammer Dwarves onto Bronzebeards.

  2. #14842
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The new starting experience slated for Shadowlands actually offers up a lot of new narrative leeway for the various races in WoW, as they'll no longer be locked in to the pre-set starting experiences in Classic through to BfA, instead sharing a specific scenario-like quest-chain on a heretofore unknown island. This is basically how they're working in the alternative PC models (e.g. Wildhammer Dwarves, non-Darkspear Trolls, etc. etc.) - as the original experiences kind of locked you into a specific extraction of a given race, but now the starting experience will be much more open and non-specific. With this new platform you could easily introduce new races without having to give them specific starting experiences (or no starting experience, such as with the Allied Races currently).

    I can easily see how this might foster the addition of even more race variants, perhaps up to and including the High Elven exiles in some capacity.
    Yet there are flaws with this analysis.

    It presumes that there is going to be some kind of lore explanation behind the expansion of Troll and Dwarf customisation options. It is just as likely they will expand the customisations on offer and let the players go at it or come up with their own explanations as to why they can now be a Wildhammer Dwarf or a have the tones of a sand troll. As a comparison, I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to create a lore event explaining why Humans now have African and Asian facial options in WoW. Instead they will grant the options and call it a low key retcon, you are going to have to presume they were always there.

    The same will probably hold true for the Dwarven and Troll options, although players are likely welcome to head canon their own explanations as to why their avatar looks the way they do. With the core races there are plentiful options actually consistent with the lore, from a parent being from the selected group to a member of that group deciding to throw in with the Horde and joining up with the main representative of their race within the Horde i.e. the Darkspear Trolls and the Bronzebeard Dwarves.

    And of course, the allied races are actually limited due to the circumstances of their creation. A Lightforged Draenei must always be Lightforged after all, that is the entire point of a Lightforged Draenei. To imagine there are no limitations anymore, that lore does not matter, means that something like a Broken Draenei should plausibly be realised via a Lightforged Draenei simply due to their common ancestry. The core races have a great deal of leeway in that their origins aren't so neatly defined as some of the allied races. None of the options Blizzard is bestowing on the existing races that we know of can be considered impossible in canon.

    But a Mag'har Orc can never be green and must always have come from alternate Draenor.
    A lightforged Draenei must always be lightforged.
    And a Void Elf can only ever be a Void Elf, never an uncorrupted exile. They maybe an exile that has chosen to BE a Void Elf, but the entire premise of the race rests on them actually going through the transformation process.

  3. #14843
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Today I have found a Blood elf corpse in Orgrimmar, and I was playing my paladin.

    I decided to resurrect the poor guy, because I can

    But oops, it was a Void elf

    So noticeable, such differentiation, very distinct, much aesthetics


  4. #14844
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It presumes that there is going to be some kind of lore explanation behind the expansion of Troll and Dwarf customisation options. It is just as likely they will expand the customisations on offer and let the players go at it or come up with their own explanations as to why they can now be a Wildhammer Dwarf or a have the tones of a sand troll. As a comparison, I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to create a lore event explaining why Humans now have African and Asian facial options in WoW. Instead they will grant the options and call it a low key retcon, you are going to have to presume they were always there.

    The same will probably hold true for the Dwarven and Troll options, although players are likely welcome to head canon their own explanations as to why their avatar looks the way they do. With the core races there are plentiful options actually consistent with the lore, from a parent being from the selected group to a member of that group deciding to throw in with the Horde and joining up with the main representative of their race within the Horde i.e. the Darkspear Trolls and the Bronzebeard Dwarves.
    Actually it kind of presumes the opposite, at least given what we know thus far. There's no way for the system to react to personal affectations you choose for a Dwarf, Troll, or what have you - which is probably part and parcel of what the unified experience is for. Insofar as new characters go, you can be a Dwarf Shaman with Wildhammer tattoos because you want to play as one, but your starting experience is still going to be the same as a Bronzebeard Dwarf or a Dark Iron one. Ditto for choosing to have a Mossflayer skintone as a Troll. Similar with Human skintones - it'll either be a post facto type of change, or a soft retcon. Either way, the lore is divorced from the current starting experiences and rolled into the shared experience planned for the next expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And of course, the allied races are actually limited due to the circumstances of their creation. A Lightforged Draenei must always be Lightforged after all, that is the entire point of a Lightforged Draenei. To imagine there are no limitations anymore, that lore does not matter, means that something like a Broken Draenei should plausibly be realised via a Lightforged Draenei simply due to their common ancestry. The core races have a great deal of leeway in that their origins aren't so neatly defined as some of the allied races. None of the options Blizzard is bestowing on the existing races that we know of can be considered impossible in canon.

    ut a Mag'har Orc can never be green and must always have come from alternate Draenor.
    A lightforged Draenei must always be lightforged. And a Void Elf can only ever be a Void Elf, never an uncorrupted exile. They maybe an exile that has chosen to BE a Void Elf, but the entire premise of the race rests on them actually going through the transformation process.
    The Allied Races don't really have starting experiences, per se; except breadcrumb quests that take them from their native starting position to their faction capitols. The recruitment quests will likely be unchanged, as you do those on a character with the requisite levels and/or reputation unlocks - but the Allied Races themselves will likely join their brethren core races (with new customization options) in this new unified experience.

    Would be simple enough to have a High Elven customization unlock somewhere in the options and roll them into the unified starting experience, or make a new Allied Race without huge amounts of justification.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #14845
    The way I see the expansion to troll customization is that the "troll race" can be all of those complexions. Tan skins aren't exclusive to sand trolls, dark purple to dark elves, etc.

    Think of it like the grimtotem tribe. They're nearly exclusively all black tauren. Yet bloodhoof (player faction) tauren are able to appear just like a grimtotem. So in the end the new troll options aren't really stepping on the toes of possible ARs.

    Zandalari are different since they have clear biological differences than all other troll. Glowing eyes, shorter tusks, scaly skin.

    As for wildhammer. If it wasnt for the tattoos the bronzebeard and wildhammer clan are identicle. Unlike the dark irons who have been infused with fire magic.

    Apply that logic to high elves and you can understand why they cant be their own race. They do not have extreme biological/magical difference to belves which is what and every AR has to their parent race.

    Maghar: free from fel corruption

    Nightbrone: infused with the nightwell

    Highmountain: antlers

    Zanda: the original troll

    Vulpera: different race entirely

    Kultirans: fat and burley due living conditions in kultiras.

    Dark irons: fire infusion

    Lightforge: light infusion

    Void elves: void infusion

    Mechagnomes: mechanized limbs.

    ***********************

    High elves: blue eyes

    Now blue eyes themselves arent enough especially since belfs will most likely get them in SL. The sunwell is holy AND arcane.

    High elves: free from fel taint.

    I dont understand why you guys insist belves are defined by their former fel taint. It was a very minor change from their blue eyed brethren. Elves just naturally change eye glow depending on the type of magic they practice with or live near it.

    It's no where near the same as velves.


    The fact that they're alliance as an excuse is silly.

    I doubt we will ever see playable horde kt humans given the horde aligned pirates in kul tiras.
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-04-01 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #14846
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Another way for High Elves to be distinct is probably some asspulls like lighter skin, lighter hair color, or even a teenage/young adult build like Kul Tirans being fat for distinction

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I doubt we will ever see playable horde kt humans given the horde aligned pirates in kul tiras.
    How about, them aligning with the Alteraci remnants?

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  7. #14847
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Another way for High Elves to be distinct is probably some asspulls like lighter skin, lighter hair color, or even a teenage/young adult build like Kul Tirans being fat for distinction



    How about, them aligning with the Alteraci remnants?

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Kt humans aren't just fat for the sake of making them different from sw humans, a belief a lot of helfers cling to for hope.

    They're fat because culture and environmental conditions in Kultiras nourished that body type. Something all other human nations were not exposed to.

    High elves have 0 reason to have any sort of ass pull physical change from belves to justify a new AR.

  8. #14848
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Kt humans aren't just fat for the sake of making them different from sw humans, a belief a lot of helfers cling to for hope.

    They're fat because culture and environmental conditions in Kultiras nourished that body type. Something all other human nations were not exposed to..
    I mean that's something that had to be conceived at the time of their Allied Race being implemented. During Vanilla/Cataclysm, the Kul Tirans weren't fat.
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  9. #14849
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I mean that's something that had to be conceived at the time of their Allied Race being implemented. During Vanilla/Cataclysm, the Kul Tirans weren't fat.
    You're right, but not even all main islander kultirans are fat and not a single non kt human is fat. So there still is consistancy there.

    How could helves possibly be different. Nothing has happened to them to make such a change.

    Plus if they wanted to do some ass pull like why didnt they do that instead of giving velves?
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-04-01 at 07:13 PM.

  10. #14850
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=311808/...88-patch-notes

    NEW ALLIED RACES

    HIGH DWARVES

    The long wait is finally over, and the much-requested High Dwarves are finally coming to Azeroth. There’s not really more to say about the glory of the High Dwarves that hasn’t already been said in the General Discussion forum.

    LOL...

  11. #14851
    I got a good chuckle out of that XD

  12. #14852
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=311808/...88-patch-notes

    NEW ALLIED RACES

    HIGH DWARVES

    The long wait is finally over, and the much-requested High Dwarves are finally coming to Azeroth. There’s not really more to say about the glory of the High Dwarves that hasn’t already been said in the General Discussion forum.

    LOL...
    Gave me a good chuckle too! Lol

    Shows they're still well aware of the request too

  13. #14853
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Gave me a good chuckle too! Lol

    Shows they're still well aware of the request too
    And that they think it's a big joke too.

  14. #14854
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    And that they think it's a big joke too.
    Like Pandas!

  15. #14855
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Like Pandas!
    This the the only thing that makes me think that they might actually be developing them as an AR.

  16. #14856
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Don't worry guys

    NEW ALLIED RACES

    HIGH DWARVES

    The long wait is finally over, and the much-requested High Dwarves are finally coming to Azeroth. There’s not really more to say about the glory of the High Dwarves that hasn’t already been said in the General Discussion forum.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  17. #14857
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Actually it kind of presumes the opposite, at least given what we know thus far. There's no way for the system to react to personal affectations you choose for a Dwarf, Troll, or what have you - which is probably part and parcel of what the unified experience is for. Insofar as new characters go, you can be a Dwarf Shaman with Wildhammer tattoos because you want to play as one, but your starting experience is still going to be the same as a Bronzebeard Dwarf or a Dark Iron one. Ditto for choosing to have a Mossflayer skintone as a Troll. Similar with Human skintones - it'll either be a post facto type of change, or a soft retcon. Either way, the lore is divorced from the current starting experiences and rolled into the shared experience planned for the next expansion.


    The Allied Races don't really have starting experiences, per se; except breadcrumb quests that take them from their native starting position to their faction capitols. The recruitment quests will likely be unchanged, as you do those on a character with the requisite levels and/or reputation unlocks - but the Allied Races themselves will likely join their brethren core races (with new customization options) in this new unified experience.

    Would be simple enough to have a High Elven customization unlock somewhere in the options and roll them into the unified starting experience, or make a new Allied Race without huge amounts of justification.
    https://www.wowhead.com/guides/shado...s-level-squish

    Allied Races will begin at level 10 instead of level 20 and will have their choice to go to any of the 8 existing expansions. They will not be able to visit Exile's Reach.

    I found this whilst researching your point here. I find it elucidating. This is from wowhead's collected information from Blizzcon 2019, all of it gathered from interviews with and commentary from various developers. Blizzard took the simplest solution to Allied races and Exile's reach, they simply intend to forbid them from going there and will start them at level 10. Whilst this seems primarily to maintain the higher starting level perk of an Allied race, it also respects the lore of those Allied races in that they cannot escape their origins. A Mag'har Orc always comes from alternate Draenor, a Lightforged Draenei is always lightforged, and a Void Elf is always the outcome of infusing a thalassian elf with void energies.

    This is my fundamental point. The core race avatars we play, we simply start up one day as a non-descript member of that race whom we then build into the old god slaying, titan thumping champions of Azeroth they are today. The background for that avatar is entirely up to the player so long as the player character is biologically identical to every member of that race. If someone wished to roleplay a Wildhammer Dwarf today using a Bronzebeard Dwarf, that is a choice that is entirely respectable because the differences between the Wildhammer and the Bronzebeard are cultural, not physical and a believable explanation could be deployed to explain the missing tattoos.
    In Shadowlands, they will be given those Wildhammer tattoos and they can personally interpret those tattoos any way they wish, from being a wildhammer fan, to a Wildhammer who lives in Dun Morogh, to having a Wildhammer parent.
    Similarly the Troll with the sandfury skin could be an outcast, or could have a sandfury parent, or they could simply have joined the Darkspear tribe to join the Horde. None of those outcomes is wrong because none of them are impossible.

    Allied races are different. This is why they start at level 10 and will be blocked from the unified starting experience, not only because it's a reward for unlocking them but because the Allied races have very precise, specific origins. In relation to this topic, a Void Elf must always be a Void Elf. A Void Elf can never be a traditional high elf, because a traditional high elf is incompatible with being blasted by void energies till you turn part ethereal. Even high elf 'like' customisations won't change that.

    A Void Elf will always be a Void Elf and can never encompass a traditional high elf exile (i.e one that has never become a Void Elf).
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-04-01 at 10:25 PM.

  18. #14858
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    https://www.wowhead.com/guides/shado...s-level-squish

    Allied Races will begin at level 10 instead of level 20 and will have their choice to go to any of the 8 existing expansions. They will not be able to visit Exile's Reach.

    I found this whilst researching your point here. I find it elucidating. This is from wowhead's collected information from Blizzcon 2019, all of it gathered from interviews with and commentary from various developers. Blizzard took the simplest solution to Allied races and Exile's reach, they simply intend to forbid them from going there and will start them at level 10. Whilst this seems primarily to maintain the higher starting level perk of an Allied race, it also respects the lore of those Allied races in that they cannot escape their origins. A Mag'har Orc always comes from alternate Draenor, a Lightforged Draenei is always lightforged, and a Void Elf is always the outcome of infusing a thalassian elf with void energies.

    This is my fundamental point. The core race avatars we play, we simply start up one day as a non-descript member of that race whom we then build into the old god slaying, titan thumping champions of Azeroth they are today. The background for that avatar is entirely up to the player so long as the player character is biologically identical to every member of that race. If someone wished to roleplay a Wildhammer Dwarf today using a Bronzebeard Dwarf, that is a choice that is entirely respectable because the differences between the Wildhammer and the Bronzebeard are cultural, not physical and a believable explanation could be deployed to explain the missing tattoos.
    In Shadowlands, they will be given those Wildhammer tattoos and they can personally interpret those tattoos any way they wish, from being a wildhammer fan, to a Wildhammer who lives in Dun Morogh, to having a Wildhammer parent.
    Similarly the Troll with the sandfury skin could be an outcast, or could have a sandfury parent, or they could simply have joined the Darkspear tribe to join the Horde. None of those outcomes is wrong because none of them are impossible.

    Allied races are different. This is why they start at level 10 and will be blocked from the unified starting experience, not only because it's a reward for unlocking them but because the Allied races have very precise, specific origins. In relation to this topic, a Void Elf must always be a Void Elf. A Void Elf can never be a traditional high elf, because a traditional high elf is incompatible with being blasted by void energies till you turn part ethereal. Even high elf 'like' customisations won't change that.

    A Void Elf will always be a Void Elf and can never encompass a traditional high elf exile (i.e one that has never become a Void Elf).
    So basically the Allied Races simply pass the new starting experience over. That's fine, and it doesn't really change the root point of my original post, which was about the core races. Meaning they could well introduce new core races (and not Allied Races) such as a High Elven exile choice, and then fold them into the new starting experience without issue as concerns the lore. Alternatively, High Elven exile (or in this case repatriated High Elf) could become a cosmetic choice for Blood Elves without issue. All depends on how they want to play it.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #14859
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Kt humans aren't just fat for the sake of making them different from sw humans, a belief a lot of helfers cling to for hope.

    They're fat because culture and environmental conditions in Kultiras nourished that body type. Something all other human nations were not exposed to.
    What "culture and environmental conditions" are those? Because, as far as I can tell, there isn't anything in Kul'Tiras to 'foster' that kind of physique that is not in Stormwind as well.

    Also, Kul'Tirans can also be super-thin.

  20. #14860
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    being blasted by void energies till you turn part ethereal.
    Just want to point out you keep using this as if it is the "current method" with how Void Elves came to be when that was a very specific one-time moment where a bad guy ethereal was trying to forcefully take away blood elves mortality. It hasn't been confirmed it's "Hey ready for your Void dose of the day? - BRZZZT -! -> Void Elf Bae-bee "

    We have no idea on:

    1) Are they currently turning more Void Elves
    2) If they are, how are they doing it?

    None of those have been clarified at all. We don't know how more Void Elves are being made if they are.

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