1. #14881
    Pretty sad how many of the same naysayers are still here, but eh, if that's what they find fun to each their own I guess. Just hope it won't be too long until the only faction I've ever really wanted to play for well over a decade is made available.

    My idea as mentioned way back would still be to have the race option be added as a mix of High Elves and half-elves, with the majority of the customization being more in between so as to not overlap more than necessary with Blood Elves (but still having the option of making something that's a pure High Elf).

  2. #14882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That is not what you have been advocating.
    That's not the focus here, which is what I've been saying over two replies now. The point is, "they are blasting new elves with void energies to make Void Elves" is not a true verifiable fact atm. What happened with the ethereal was a forced against their own will type of thing, and a one time event because we vanquished said ethereal who was a bad guy.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The problem with this critique is that it is a highly personal objection, that the specific tones on offer don't agree with you. And yes, maybe you would be fine if some of the monkey paw results I linked were indeed added. But would everyone be happy? I doubt it.
    This entire debate that's been going on is a bunch of personal objections, from all sides. Here's the objective truths tho, backed by easily verifiable/searchable evidence/precedent:

    1) Everyone does not need to happy. Example: Recent Worgen/Goblin changes. These came about because in beta there were people who complained the 1st iteration of Worgens looked 'too disney' and with live we got the widely upsetting looks Worgen stayed with until recently. The 'chihuahua' females and 'always angry snarling' males. Many years afterward, almost a decade later, we get the current Worgen remakes, and what are some of the comments we see with their unveiled bfa looks "omg it looks so disney! The worgens lost their viciousness, I don't like this!"

    Guess what? Blizzard doesn't care about those people because it was those same people that led to Worgen receiving a bunch of complaints after their live looks got released. Here Blizzard does not care about a scant minority compared to the overwhelming majority of Worgen fans who had been speaking for years about the customization of Cataclysm Worgens looking like trash. Blizzard did the right thing with the Worgen revamp, which was listen to the fans who wholly love Worgen about what they wanted vs the passerby players/those that do not main/do not care to main a Worgen.

    Fortunately, we see the same thing happening with Void Elves. Majority of their fans are asking for more customization options akin to a high elf, this is disregarding high elf fans in that count. Despite the few that exist wholly content with Void Elves. Same as with majority of Nightborne fans saying over and over they need to 'fix their faces to NPC levels' despite the few who are playing and enjoying their Nightborne.

    Your "Appeal to Extremes" is a logical fallacy you keep holding onto. Blizzard themselves have also stated they are okay with a few people being discontent as long there's a healthy amount enjoying it.

    Also another easy verifiable statement is that majority of players will not be against getting more customization options. So arguing about "what about those that want 20% less coloration/40% less coloration" is another "Appeal to Extremes" fallacy. The vast majority of the playerbase are never against getting more options. Those scant few that wish Zandalari Paladins never existed, or Dwarves shouldn't ever be mages do not matter against the much more vast amount of players that are always wanting more and more customization options for their characters.

    You can see this in action by the increased customizations coming to SL where it has been acknowledged it's being done because players have been asking for it for a long time and 'the technology is there now'. We are not talking about having to sacrifice one choice for another here, we are talking about adding to what Void Elves do not already have. That is the goal of increased customizations and this still seems to be something you have a hard time wrapping your head around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Night Elf Paladins should definitely be a thing given they established the precedent themselves and should they need a Horde counterpart to keep the number even they could add a Zandalari Warlock.
    Not sure why there needs to be an equivalent exchange of adding additional class options, are they currently balanced? Regardless, it seems like here you are one of the ones disappointed Zandalari can't be Warlocks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Uthan View Post
    Pretty sad how many of the same naysayers are still here, but eh, if that's what they find fun to each their own I guess. Just hope it won't be too long until the only faction I've ever really wanted to play for well over a decade is made available.

    My idea as mentioned way back would still be to have the race option be added as a mix of High Elves and half-elves, with the majority of the customization being more in between so as to not overlap more than necessary with Blood Elves (but still having the option of making something that's a pure High Elf).
    To your first paragraph: Yeah it is pretty sad. But also, I decided to take a gander at the General Discussion forums last night and happened on a "High Elf Positivity" thread and it was made by someone advocating for High Elves that I had not seen before on the GD forum High Elf threads, someone who actually loves and mains Blood Elves and Void Elves and wants to see High Elves have their story told as well.

    Then I saw the pro-High Elf people in support of him and it was again new posters I had not seen in previous HE discussion threads on official forums. Whereas the people who continue to be against HE are often the same sort of people seen time and time again.

    This also means that regardless of whether we here stopped talking about it, there will always people requesting High Elves, that is how big the request is. It's pretty cool to see that.

    To your second paragraph: I would be all for this as well. My main thing with getting High Elves is they have a very different perspective to show than Blood Elves and Void Elves. A mixed race of High Elf and Half-elf would be perfect imo. Especially as the mixing of blood is what Elisande calls them out for.

  3. #14883
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    An interpretation borne out by the fact they haven't added a neutral since
    Correlation does not imply causation, and that is a fact. For someone so proud of "facts", you sure like to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist when they inconvenience you.

    I can give you a long list of "things Blizzard would never do because they never did in the past, but then did anyways."

    and the one candidate they considered was ruled out because it would turn an existing race neutral.
    This is objectively false.

    And the Pandaren 'April Fool's joke' was pretty fleshed out compared to one line that isn't about high elves at all if taken literally, but high dwarves.
    Irrelevant, especially considering how this "fleshed out" ended up wholly irrelevant to its implementation.

    Forgive me if I see a difference behind an race that was actually fleshed out to make the joke real and a one line meta reference to the ongoing high elf debate.
    An arbitrary difference. I can easily argue that Blizzard could afford to be more elaborate on their April Fools jokes back then because of the small amount of relevant games they had at the time.

    High Elves were ruled out on the grounds they are already playable, albeit for the Horde.
    That is nothing but your own interpretation of what was said.

  4. #14884
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The joke was funny in this year's April Fools. It made us chuckle. But that was all it was intended to do and it signifies nothing more or nothing less than that.
    But the blood elves were also an April fools joke, but they became playable despite this. It was the same with pandarens.


  5. #14885
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    But the blood elves were also an April fools joke, but they became playable despite this. It was the same with pandarens.

    They had already shown blood elves as the horde race at that point. The alliance race was unknown, thus the april fools. It, the joke, was never inclusive of the blood elves though.

  6. #14886
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    But the blood elves were also an April fools joke, but they became playable despite this. It was the same with pandarens.

    One of the happiest times there was on the World of Warcraft forums was the period between October 2005 where the first Blizzcon revealed the new expansion and that Blood Elves were going to be the new Horde race and 2006's E3 (I think) which revealed that race to be Draenei.
    People argued constantly over what the race was going to be with most agreeing it would be Ogres or Draenei (although at that time we thought the lost ones were what a Draenei was). I actually thought it would be Ogres because I felt the Lost Ones were too puny and ugly in my opinion to really succeed.

    During this debate, Blizzard held an April Fool's revealing the new Alliance race was actually going to be the wisps, whose unique racial ability would be to self-detonate for an amazing 13 arcane damage or so and which meant you would then have to reroll your permadead character.

    You can find the saved screenshot mock ups and text at https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wisp_(April_Fools)

    It was funny. The April Fool's was most definitely not the Blood Elves though.

    P.S. We learned many years later that the reason the Alliance race hadn't been announced at Blizzcon alongside Blood Elves was that they had been forced to change their minds. They had started with Pandaren and I am not sure how far they got in building the Pandaren race until they realised the Pandaren having no connection to Outland was a massive story problem. The rush for a suitable replacement probably explains the minor confusion that led to the great Eredar retcon controversy, but given Draenei are probably one of the best races added to the game (because the basic Eredar design is fantastic) it was something most people thought was an acceptable hiccup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    This entire debate that's been going on is a bunch of personal objections, from all sides. Here's the objective truths tho, backed by easily verifiable/searchable evidence/precedent:

    1) Everyone does not need to happy. Example: Recent Worgen/Goblin changes. These came about because in beta there were people who complained the 1st iteration of Worgens looked 'too disney' and with live we got the widely upsetting looks Worgen stayed with until recently. The 'chihuahua' females and 'always angry snarling' males. Many years afterward, almost a decade later, we get the current Worgen remakes, and what are some of the comments we see with their unveiled bfa looks "omg it looks so disney! The worgens lost their viciousness, I don't like this!"

    Fortunately, we see the same thing happening with Void Elves. Majority of their fans are asking for more customization options akin to a high elf, this is disregarding high elf fans in that count. Despite the few that exist wholly content with Void Elves. Same as with majority of Nightborne fans saying over and over they need to 'fix their faces to NPC levels' despite the few who are playing and enjoying their Nightborne.
    What the Void Elf compromise ensured is that the majority of people got something. Alliance players got the blood elf model they were coveting and the fact they are one of the most popular allied races, if not THE most popular allied race, bears out this was a good move. Similarly while the Horde lost a monopoly on the model, they received Nightborne by way of compensation AND the Void Elves were differentiated enough so as not to infringe on the identity of the Blood Elves as the true high elves (as in generic tolkienesque high elves) of the franchise and to protect the integrity of the Horde and the faction barrier. Everyone wins.

    Except the hardcore who wanted a perfect replica. Have you considered that Blizzard agrees with your initial sentiment and that it is those seeking Alliance high elves who have rolled snake eyes?

    Not everyone has to be happy after all.

    Your presumption that the same situation that played out with Worgen is playing out with Void Elves is also a stretch. Everyone could see the Worgen model was botched. Blizzard themselves even admitted it when discussing the revamp they got. That analogy does not hold true for Void Elves. Void Elves were not botched, the model was barely touched beyond being turned blue. The issue with Void Elves is that they WERE differentiated from Blood Elves, not that they were implemented in a hideous fashion. The further they are from Blood Elves, the less acceptable they become.

    You are expecting Blizzard to correct a mistake when no mistake was made. All that happened was what you got was not what you wanted and there were deliberate reasons you didn't get what you wanted.





    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Your "Appeal to Extremes" is a logical fallacy you keep holding onto. Blizzard themselves have also stated they are okay with a few people being discontent as long there's a healthy amount enjoying it.
    Again I am glad you say so, because once you accept that you can understand why Blizzard does tweak your nose on an almost yearly basis now on this topic. They are probably ok with the pro High Elf community not liking Void Elves because plenty of Alliance are playing Void Elves. And if the Void Elves' imperfection finally gets to them, they are welcome to faction change to the Horde for the real deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Also another easy verifiable statement is that majority of players will not be against getting more customization options. So arguing about "what about those that want 20% less coloration/40% less coloration" is another "Appeal to Extremes" fallacy. The vast majority of the playerbase are never against getting more options. Those scant few that wish Zandalari Paladins never existed, or Dwarves shouldn't ever be mages do not matter against the much more vast amount of players that are always wanting more and more customization options for their characters.

    You can see this in action by the increased customizations coming to SL where it has been acknowledged it's being done because players have been asking for it for a long time and 'the technology is there now'. We are not talking about having to sacrifice one choice for another here, we are talking about adding to what Void Elves do not already have. That is the goal of increased customizations and this still seems to be something you have a hard time wrapping your head around.
    New options are good. Options replicating what makes an existing race unique cause issues. Your inability to process that other considerations will temper their decision making leads you to believe that everything is on the table again as regards to new customizations. There is no evidence for that beyond you simply wishing it to be the case. The issues that led to them creating Void Elves in the first place are still there, namely a desire not to give the Alliance a duplicate of a Horde race. When the times comes to consider Void Elf customization options, those factors are still going to be present. Void Elves can still receive new customisation options that don't duplicate the Blood Elf aesthetic.

    I wonder, if we come to that point and Void Elves come out without what you wanted, will you then finally accept it isn't going to happen?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Not sure why there needs to be an equivalent exchange of adding additional class options, are they currently balanced? Regardless, it seems like here you are one of the ones disappointed Zandalari can't be Warlocks.
    Gnome Hunters were specifically created to ensure there was an even match of Horde and Alliance race-class combos. For some reason they think it is important that that is maintained, which is why when the Alliance momentarily pulled ahead by a single extra race-class combination after Zandalari and Kul Tirans were added, I argued whatever the next Horde race to be added would have one more race class combo than it's Alliance counterpart to even things out again, and I was correct.
    It's an important factor for Blizzard for some reason. Don't quite get it myself but if that is what they want...
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-04-03 at 07:01 PM.

  7. #14887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Your presumption that the same situation that played out with Worgen is playing out with Void Elves is also a stretch. Everyone could see the Worgen model was botched. Blizzard themselves even admitted it when discussing the revamp they got. That analogy does not hold true for Void Elves. Void Elves were not botched, the model was barely touched beyond being turned blue. The issue with Void Elves is that they WERE differentiated from Blood Elves, not that they were implemented in a hideous fashion. The further they are from Blood Elves, the less acceptable they become.

    You are expecting Blizzard to correct a mistake when no mistake was made. All that happened was what you got was not what you wanted and there were deliberate reasons you didn't get what you wanted.
    The live Worgen model was a response to the beta Worgen model that looked like this:



    This was a situation exactly as I am describing, some people were crying out "they look too disney!" and thus Blizzard changed it to the 'new model' for live. Except that then also turned out to be botched to Worgen fans. Turns out the part of the playerbase who were calling out the 'old model' for being 'too disney' were fairweather fans of the race, not the actual majority of worgen fans/mains that let their disappointment be known for years and Blizzard acknowledging.

    And of course Blizzard acknowledged it, because they weren't trying to 'sell' a Void Worgen to the playerbase. They then took that feedback, kept it internal for almost a decade, and finally showcased it for BFA. Where again, once we see the BFA Worgen designs we still see comments (you can look through on MMO-C alone and find these) talking about how BFA Worgen are too Disney from mainly fairweather people but the responses from dedicated Worgen fans are that Blizzard did a good job listening to their feedback.

    It was a long time-coming and great example to use for showing that targeted feedback is what matters, not just simply feedback from anywhere. Similar case here, Blizzard didn't care to listen to High Elf fans they just put the Blood Elf model on Alliance and that's that. Then defended it because it was such a new release.

    Did Blizzard say Worgen were botched relatively close to their release, or did that comment come years after? Something Blizzard always does. I already brought the example of Player Housing, where Ion touted Garrisons as 'WoW's version of Player Housing' and then many years now after WoD we hear rumblings about how they're still working on how to better implement player housing. Or what about the level of RNG within BFA/defending TF/WF throughout BFA/defending pruning and then come Shadowlands and admitting their wrong and doing away with those?

    Blizzard do not always quickly admit when they are wrong, that's something that is par for the course. Void Elves are still fresh, Void Elves are part of a stand-out feature for BFA, the current expansion. Par for the course for Blizzard to defend what was very recently implemented.

    I don't expect Blizzard to "correct a mistake" because by letting it be that road towards High Elves coming to Alliance in some form is already happening. Majority of Void Elf mains want high elf/alleria customizations. New people still come into the overall topic (on general forums) and make the requests for Alliance High Elves. Blizzard devs themselves have stated it's possible, restated it's possible when asked again. Acknowledged it is a community favorite.

    None of it requires me to keep a conversation going here. Just like I always wanted a ton of features WoW has now and never had to participate in those discussions, because the majority in the community do it well enough already. Examples: LFR similar to LFD (because I started in Wrath), Tmog, DHs, Account-wide accessibility, Collections tab, changing every aspect of your character in the barbershop. Never had to be a part of any of those conversations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Again I am glad you say so, because once you accept that you can understand why Blizzard does tweak your nose on an almost yearly basis now on this topic. They are probably ok with the pro High Elf community not liking Void Elves because plenty of Alliance are playing Void Elves. And if the Void Elves' imperfection finally gets to them, they are welcome to faction change to the Horde for the real deal.
    Blizzard were also okay with dwarf players at the time for having to choose the ashy skintone with red eyes dwarf as a way to play Dark Iron since vanilla. Didn't stop proper Dark Irons from continuing to be requested and didn't stop Blizzard from implementing true Dark Iron Dwarves whilst still keeping the 'old solution' that's been there since Vanilla.

    What Blizzard are satisfied with now has no bearing with how they handle future additions. Just look at all the stuff people have pointed out to you that they've previously improved upon despite having a workable solution before the improvement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    New options are good. Options replicating what makes an existing race unique cause issues. Your inability to process that other considerations will temper their decision making leads you to believe that everything is on the table again as regards to new customizations. There is no evidence for that beyond you simply wishing it to be the case. The issues that led to them creating Void Elves in the first place are still there, namely a desire not to give the Alliance a duplicate of a Horde race. When the times comes to consider Void Elf customization options, those factors are still going to be present. Void Elves can still receive new customisation options that don't duplicate the Blood Elf aesthetic.
    Replicating options isn't required or needed. Nightborne, per Blizzard's writing, are considered Purple Elves. Do any of their skin tones appear on Night Elves? Likewise, do any Night Elf skin tones appear on Nightborne? I have also already discussed how Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes all have fair skin options that are unique to their own race respectively as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I wonder, if we come to that point and Void Elves come out without what you wanted, will you then finally accept it isn't going to happen?
    The only point at which I will accept High Elves won't ever happen is if Blizzard themselves explicitly state they will never happen. Fortunately, they have not. I question if you believe they have, what is your continued purpose in this thread?

    Are you trying to emulate Sylvanas and stamp out hope? If someone believes High Elves are never happening I question their purpose in continuing to participate in a thread with a supposed forgone conclusion.

    We all already have our arguments laid out, going in cycles over them is useless and not something I wish to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Gnome Hunters were specifically created to ensure there was an even match of Horde and Alliance race-class combos. For some reason they think it is important that that is maintained, which is why when the Alliance momentarily pulled ahead by a single extra race-class combination after Zandalari and Kul Tirans were added, I argued whatever the next Horde race to be added would have one more race class combo than it's Alliance counterpart to even things out again, and I was correct.
    It's an important factor for Blizzard for some reason. Don't quite get it myself but if that is what they want...
    Ah you're right they do, how strange. Alliance still needs 1 more paladin (iconic faction class) option within its core race. As Horde carries 4 shaman (iconic faction class) within their core races. Hopefully it does not happen on Gnomes, although I've known that's been requested.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2020-04-03 at 08:49 PM.

  8. #14888
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yet that Exile's reach is necessary for this is entirely debatable.

    Expanding the Darkspear Troll skin choice range doesn't require Exile's reach to explain. IF a lore explanation MUST be had, I can think of four off the top of my head.

    1.) Your sand troll avatar was a foundling by the Darkspear.
    2.) Your forest troll defected to the Darkspear as a young troll and has lived among their new tribe in the echo isles, becoming a Darkspear.
    3.) Your frost troll is actually a Darkspear, but had a Frost Troll parent they take after.
    4.) Your shadow troll is actually a Darkspear, but the skin tone is a genetic throwback.

    None of those four explanations require Exile's reach, all of them are expansive enough to encompass any skin tones the Trolls end up getting and variations upon them can be employed with Dwarves as well. Players can happily begin their lives as Trolls upon the echo isles whilst looking like a Sand Troll or whatever, and because there are plentiful explanations in lore which explain why it can be that way (even if the player doesn't care about the lore and just thinks golden skin is cool), then it breaks nothing.

    But the Allied races cannot participate in this, particularly those who are essentially glorified customisation options for existing races (LFD, Nightborne, Void Elves, HMT, DID and ,MHO). Their origins are set, in fact they are written in such a way that the fairly blank canvas roleplayers have with the core races is mostly coloured in.

    So not only can Exile's reach not service the Allied races due to their exclusion from it, but the other purpose you've said could have an effect on the overall design isn't really required either.

    Exile's reach is just what it purports to be. A better starting experience for new players to WoW that will teach them what WoW actually is.
    The concept here is that with Exile's Reach you don't need a lore justification to begin with - it's not weird for a Mossflayer, Darkspear, or Vilebranch Troll to start out in a shared experience decoupled from a preexisting lore setting. It would be weird for a Mossflayer to just show up on the Echo Isles, a continent away, and basically be a part of the local scene with no one saying anything. Ditto for a Wildhammer Dwarf leveling in and around Kharanos. No need for lore explanations for the explosions of foundlings and/or exiles from other tribes or clans or what have you - the scenario works for everyone equally.

    And I said previously, the Allied Races don't currently have starting experience for new characters - their "starting experience" is more or less their recruitment quests, which are performed by another character in any case (e.g. the PC's main character with the prerequisites met).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #14889
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Also @Traycor glad to see you again!

    Hope everyone's staying safe during these times.
    Hi @Pennem, thanks. Doing well, locked indoors like everyone else. Thank the Lord I'm able to work from home, and I stay pretty busy. Praying that all of you are healthy and well.

  10. #14890
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The concept here is that with Exile's Reach you don't need a lore justification to begin with - it's not weird for a Mossflayer, Darkspear, or Vilebranch Troll to start out in a shared experience decoupled from a preexisting lore setting. It would be weird for a Mossflayer to just show up on the Echo Isles, a continent away, and basically be a part of the local scene with no one saying anything. Ditto for a Wildhammer Dwarf leveling in and around Kharanos. No need for lore explanations for the explosions of foundlings and/or exiles from other tribes or clans or what have you - the scenario works for everyone equally.

    And I said previously, the Allied Races don't currently have starting experience for new characters - their "starting experience" is more or less their recruitment quests, which are performed by another character in any case (e.g. the PC's main character with the prerequisites met).
    I wouldn't be surprised if the real roadblock to adding High Elves in the past was the fact that Silvermoon City would always be a Blood Elf capital. By the old paradigm of capitals with starting zones for each race, High Elves had no solid place to start. With Exile's Reach, this problem goes away.

    In fact, this change to the starting experience could be driven in large part by the desire to give fans what they want: High Elves. But it also opens the door to many others, like forest trolls.

  11. #14891
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the real roadblock to adding High Elves in the past was the fact that Silvermoon City would always be a Blood Elf capital. By the old paradigm of capitals with starting zones for each race, High Elves had no solid place to start. With Exile's Reach, this problem goes away.

    In fact, this change to the starting experience could be driven in large part by the desire to give fans what they want: High Elves. But it also opens the door to many others, like forest trolls.
    for a start, they can just band together with the Highborne and Night Elves to restore Eldre'thalas
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  12. #14892
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the real roadblock to adding High Elves in the past was the fact that Silvermoon City would always be a Blood Elf capital. By the old paradigm of capitals with starting zones for each race, High Elves had no solid place to start. With Exile's Reach, this problem goes away.

    In fact, this change to the starting experience could be driven in large part by the desire to give fans what they want: High Elves. But it also opens the door to many others, like forest trolls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    for a start, they can just band together with the Highborne and Night Elves to restore Eldre'thalas
    I'd prefer the High Elves to settle around Quel'danil, for various reasons.

    For starter, it's close to the Wildhammer, and it was established early on that this dwarven Clan and the Quel'dorei were friendly. If the Silver Covenant joined force with the inhabitants of the Lodge, it would greatly bolster the Alliance forces here, while also making sure that they are all relatively safe.

    Secondly, it'd allow for some radical take on the High Elves. With the Void Elves around, have Vereesa come to the conclusion that it is the peoples of Quel'danil who are in the right and have them decide to ditch the mages and warlock classes (Void Elves will be the Thalassian representatives of those in the Alliance). Lean on the Wildhammers and Draenei being here to give them shamans and possibly druids. So they'd be Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Paladin, Monks, Shaman (+Dk?).

    Thirdly, it'd allow her to cement a crucil distinction with the Void Elves. the Ren'dorei want Silvermoon to return to the Alliance, and they have little bad blood with their former brethren. The High Elves are alreayd far more removed from this idea, and them reinforcing the isolated Quel'dnil lodge would be the ultimate testament to their divorce with Quel'thalas.

    Of course, with Exile's Reach, there won't be a need to implement such a change, but frankly, when High Elves will be playable, it'd be great to have the whole world evolve to show the changes. The Horde and Alliance have a lot of settlements in dire need of development and rework. Furthermore, even if it was terribly executed, BFA must have redrawn a lot of borders on the maps.

  13. #14893
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    The live Worgen model was a response to the beta Worgen model that looked like this:



    This was a situation exactly as I am describing, some people were crying out "they look too disney!" and thus Blizzard changed it to the 'new model' for live. Except that then also turned out to be botched to Worgen fans. Turns out the part of the playerbase who were calling out the 'old model' for being 'too disney' were fairweather fans of the race, not the actual majority of worgen fans/mains that let their disappointment be known for years and Blizzard acknowledging.

    And of course Blizzard acknowledged it, because they weren't trying to 'sell' a Void Worgen to the playerbase. They then took that feedback, kept it internal for almost a decade, and finally showcased it for BFA. Where again, once we see the BFA Worgen designs we still see comments (you can look through on MMO-C alone and find these) talking about how BFA Worgen are too Disney from mainly fairweather people but the responses from dedicated Worgen fans are that Blizzard did a good job listening to their feedback.

    It was a long time-coming and great example to use for showing that targeted feedback is what matters, not just simply feedback from anywhere. Similar case here, Blizzard didn't care to listen to High Elf fans they just put the Blood Elf model on Alliance and that's that. Then defended it because it was such a new release.

    Did Blizzard say Worgen were botched relatively close to their release, or did that comment come years after? Something Blizzard always does. I already brought the example of Player Housing, where Ion touted Garrisons as 'WoW's version of Player Housing' and then many years now after WoD we hear rumblings about how they're still working on how to better implement player housing. Or what about the level of RNG within BFA/defending TF/WF throughout BFA/defending pruning and then come Shadowlands and admitting their wrong and doing away with those?

    Blizzard do not always quickly admit when they are wrong, that's something that is par for the course. Void Elves are still fresh, Void Elves are part of a stand-out feature for BFA, the current expansion. Par for the course for Blizzard to defend what was very recently implemented.


    None of it requires me to keep a conversation going here. Just like I always wanted a ton of features WoW has now and never had to participate in those discussions, because the majority in the community do it well enough already. Examples: LFR similar to LFD (because I started in Wrath), Tmog, DHs, Account-wide accessibility, Collections tab, changing every aspect of your character in the barbershop. Never had to be a part of any of those conversations.
    Yet the Worgen were botched on an aesthetic level. The end result just looked bad. This is why Blizzard took the opportunity to deviate from their previously expressed guidelines regarding the upgrades, that the end results should closely adhere to what was created previously, and instead upgraded the Worgen models to look far, far better. But the substance of the Worgen remains the same. Nothing about the nature of the race itself was changed.

    Void Elves were not botched on an aesthetic level. Void Elves are perfectly fine because fundamentally all they are is the Blood Elf model with blue skin. The objection is not to the Void Elves being presented badly, but the nature of the Void Elves themselves and their relevant void based aesthetic. In other words, Void Elves are fine, they just aren't what was wanted by a small group of hardcore pro High Elfers. Conversely, Worgen were wanted by people really into the Werewolf fantasy, but they were bad looking werewolves. Now they look far better.

    In other words, once again, this is another in a long line of false equivalencies, yet another example where pro High Elfers say because they did 'X', then them doing high elves for the Alliance is completely logical. Each and every example provided always falls apart under interrogation because the situation of the high elves in the Alliance is unique. No other request is predicated on duplicating an existing core race from one faction to the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I don't expect Blizzard to "correct a mistake" because by letting it be that road towards High Elves coming to Alliance in some form is already happening. Majority of Void Elf mains want high elf/alleria customizations. New people still come into the overall topic (on general forums) and make the requests for Alliance High Elves. Blizzard devs themselves have stated it's possible, restated it's possible when asked again. Acknowledged it is a community favorite.
    Firstly, Void Elves are not a mistake, neither in their creation or their implementation. We know exactly why they are the way they are.

    Secondly, Void Elves ARE the way the high elves came to the Alliance, as they are 'another flavour' of High Elf. If anything happens, it is going to be via the medium of Void Elves rather than a dedicated allied race.

    Thirdly, the forums are never a good place to ascertain that a majority of players agree with you. Whilst they are useful for feedback, it is also true that the vast majority of players never darken a forum to state their opinions. So you stating a majority of Void Elf mains agree with you is an unsupported and unsupportable statements as the vast majority of Void Elf players have never been polled on the topic.
    Even were it provable it was a 'majority', well, so what if most Void Elf players want such customisations? It has been explained that maintaining an aesthetic distinction between Void Elves and Blood Elves not only shores up the identities of both races but protects the integrity of the respective factions. That's important to a lot of players. Should Void Elf fans be prioritised even if their desires do harm to what other players AND the developers consider to be important? No other customisation request threatens this which is why no other customisation request generates this level of pushback.
    Just because Void Elf players doesn't mean everyone else has to indulge them.

    Fourthly, a single Blizzard developer stated it was possible in an extremely brief answer that immediately segued into a somewhat longer commentary on forum behaviour. Ion also stated high elves were possible when asked about a sub-race system in 2013 and we know how that ended up once they sat down and thought things through.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Blizzard were also okay with dwarf players at the time for having to choose the ashy skintone with red eyes dwarf as a way to play Dark Iron since vanilla. Didn't stop proper Dark Irons from continuing to be requested and didn't stop Blizzard from implementing true Dark Iron Dwarves whilst still keeping the 'old solution' that's been there since Vanilla.
    Yeah Blizzard doesn't really support roleplayers beyond some barebones server structures. If some players wanted to pretend those Dwarves they were playing were Dark Iron that was up to them, but that wasn't what they were. They were playing ordinary Dwarves. Just because you wish to headcanon something for a scenario doesn't mean the rest of the player base has to go along with it.

    What Blizzard are satisfied with now has no bearing with how they handle future additions. Just look at all the stuff people have pointed out to you that they've previously improved upon despite having a workable solution before the improvement.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Replicating options isn't required or needed. Nightborne, per Blizzard's writing, are considered Purple Elves. Do any of their skin tones appear on Night Elves? Likewise, do any Night Elf skin tones appear on Nightborne? I have also already discussed how Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes all have fair skin options that are unique to their own race respectively as well.
    Which of course only works because Nightborne and Night Elves collectively use non human skin tones which Blizzard can arbitrarily carve up and assign in order to enhance differentiation between the two groups. Unlike the Nightborne and Night Elves however, Blood/High Elves use the human skin tone range. It's brutally hard to carve that up without controversy in WoW because the races that utilise the human range skin tones are getting that range expanded. We are going to have black skinned Dwarves, black skinned Gnomes and truly black skinned humans very shortly, a positive development I am sure you will agree.
    Yet which segment of the human skin tone range would you like to carve off from the Blood Elves in order to get human like skin tones on the otherwise alien toned Void Elves whilst maintaining differentiation. Perhaps the skin tone from brown to black? It's a human range, just like an uncorrupted elf would sport, and you would definitely be able to go around looking like a high elf for the short periods entropic embrace had not procced. Somehow I suspect that wouldn't quite make those looking for high elf customisation on Void Elves jump for joy.

    See? It's a bunk point drawing on Nightborne and Night Elves. It's another false equivalency that doesn't work. The Human skin tone range comes as a complete package and as it is being expanded for all the races that use it, those races must have access to all the tones within. Nightborne and Night Elves both use a non human skin tone range, Blizzard can assign it however they deem appropriate. But the Blood Elf human skin tone range cannot be so neatly diced up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    The only point at which I will accept High Elves won't ever happen is if Blizzard themselves explicitly state they will never happen. Fortunately, they have not. I question if you believe they have, what is your continued purpose in this thread?

    Are you trying to emulate Sylvanas and stamp out hope? If someone believes High Elves are never happening I question their purpose in continuing to participate in a thread with a supposed forgone conclusion.

    We all already have our arguments laid out, going in cycles over them is useless and not something I wish to do.
    My purpose in this thread is to demonstrate continued opposition to a request that undermines a core race of the Horde for the vanity of a group of players who have never reconciled themselves to the story as it actually is. Same as yours in a way, hoping to continue demonstrating support for high elf exiles in the hope Blizzard will change their mind.

    And you wouldn't accept Blizzard saying it will explicitly never happen. Because they will never say never. But what they can do is calmly set out the rationale as to why they didn't happen and why they introduced a 95% match to what was desired. Which was as explicit a no as they tend to give these days, and if that wasn't good enough for you all an even more explicit no would accomplish would be for the pro High Elf community to convince itself it must try even harder to change their minds.

    As that community does not regard Void Elves as the huge success it actually was, we are now going on fifteen and a half years of no success. The only point you will accept it in other words seems to be when the game is finally put into maintenance mode.

    Still it seems that without new information we remain where we are with the current status quo.

    We are now on the cusp of alpha and new information. I have always stated the next big blow up on this thread will be the presence of blue eyes on Blood Elves in the alpha build or their absence. Probably best to see what happens in the next few days.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The concept here is that with Exile's Reach you don't need a lore justification to begin with - it's not weird for a Mossflayer, Darkspear, or Vilebranch Troll to start out in a shared experience decoupled from a preexisting lore setting. It would be weird for a Mossflayer to just show up on the Echo Isles, a continent away, and basically be a part of the local scene with no one saying anything. Ditto for a Wildhammer Dwarf leveling in and around Kharanos. No need for lore explanations for the explosions of foundlings and/or exiles from other tribes or clans or what have you - the scenario works for everyone equally.

    And I said previously, the Allied Races don't currently have starting experience for new characters - their "starting experience" is more or less their recruitment quests, which are performed by another character in any case (e.g. the PC's main character with the prerequisites met).
    Except players will have the option to do exactly that, show up in the Echo Isles with Mossflayer skin tones, should they not be a new player.

    I don't think any lore beyond what exists in the players own mind is required to explain why that may be the case. These new customisation options exist solely to allow players to have increasingly unique avatars, and assuming they require lore is probably overthinking it. The scenarios I provided are merely justifications for those who DO require a lore explanation. Personally I don't think it will be necessary or even explained.

    The Allied races remain excluded from these considerations though due to the nature of their origins. Whatever customisations they get will be consistent with their existing stories. So no green Mag'har Orcs, no non lightforged lightforged-Draenei, no Highmountain Tauren with cow horns and no Void Elves who aren't Void Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the real roadblock to adding High Elves in the past was the fact that Silvermoon City would always be a Blood Elf capital. By the old paradigm of capitals with starting zones for each race, High Elves had no solid place to start. With Exile's Reach, this problem goes away.

    In fact, this change to the starting experience could be driven in large part by the desire to give fans what they want: High Elves. But it also opens the door to many others, like forest trolls.
    The real roadblock has nothing to do with Silvermoon city. The real roadblock is what they told us it was, that Blood Elves are High Elves and thus form an intrinsic, core part of the Horde and duplicating that race to the Alliance degrades the boundaries between the factions. There is no need to invent reasons as to why the exiles didn't happen when they already told us why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    We are now on the cusp of alpha and new information. I have always stated the next big blow up on this thread will be the presence of blue eyes on Blood Elves in the alpha build or their absence. Probably best to see what happens in the next few days.
    Again, not sure why this would be a "big blow". People are going to continue asking for High Elves on Alliance despite blue eyes on Blood Elves. It will actually be good because it will show even more that people want to experience a very specific group and are not just looking to play "blue eye Blood Elves".

    Indeed the only ones wishing to play "Blue Eye Blood Elves" appear to be already BE mains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Again, not sure why this would be a "big blow". People are going to continue asking for High Elves on Alliance despite blue eyes on Blood Elves. It will actually be good because it will show even more that people want to experience a very specific group and are not just looking to play "blue eye Blood Elves".

    Indeed the only ones wishing to play "Blue Eye Blood Elves" appear to be already BE mains.
    That is your personal stance but to pretend it's not going to be a development of interest should it happen seems a little off.

    Fundamentally, blue eyes for Blood Elves are just an extra eye colour option. They are a requested addition by Blood Elf players and they would clearly be very easy to implement once the basic framework for separating eye colour from faces is finished (which we know is going to happen across the board for most if not all races). I personally am going to be far more interested in the potential tattoo options Blood Elves may receive than eye colours.

    Yet we all know what blue eyes represent. Even Taliesin, whom you previously labelled an authority, summed up what blue eyes mean. For the vast majority of the playerbase, blue eyes are shorthand for the Alliance high elf exiles. The one tangible and consistent differentiating factor between a Blood Elf and an exile. The opening up of that last sliver of differentiation can only be seen by many in one way, high elf customization being added to Blood Elves.

    I disagree with that of course, because Blood Elves are High Elves and the addition of a single shade of colour isn't going to suddenly complete them as high elves, but the symbolism of gaining access to this last shred of differentiation will be powerful. I imagine many of those who wish for high elves will not take the addition of blue eyes to Blood Elves in such a sanguine manner as you appear to plan. Hence the potential for another big blow up on the forums. Conversely, should blue eyes for Blood Elves not be present, the blow up will come as those who support the addition of the exiles leap to the conclusion that they are being reserved for the inevitable addition of a high elf allied race. Which would happen, given how it seems the high dwarves joke was taken as a kind of soft sign because Blizzard would, for some reason, not dare to tease you unless they had something concrete in the pipeline (Blizzard's responses about High Elves for the past two years have actually invovled some kind of snark or joke at the pro High Elf communities' expense so yes, they would tease you with no plans).

    We shall see soon if this particular question is answered rapidly. There is every chance the new customisations will not be implemented in the alpha build that is datamined, or that they are not fully implemented. Only the addition of blue eyes, or the conclusion of new customisations being added, will answer the query.

  16. #14896
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Again, not sure why this would be a "big blow". People are going to continue asking for High Elves on Alliance despite blue eyes on Blood Elves. It will actually be good because it will show even more that people want to experience a very specific group and are not just looking to play "blue eye Blood Elves".

    Indeed the only ones wishing to play "Blue Eye Blood Elves" appear to be already BE mains.
    It will only be an alpha, as long as SL is not out, they can still make changes.
    And I think that if the blood elves have the blue eyes of the high elves, we will see other requests that will come, like this:
    The Void Elves must have the appearance of the Blood Elves as a customization option since they were former Blood Elves.

    In short, it will never end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    It will only be an alpha, as long as SL is not out, they can still make changes.
    And I think that if the blood elves have the blue eyes of the high elves, we will see other requests that will come, like this:
    The Void Elves must have the appearance of the Blood Elves as a customization option since they were former Blood Elves.

    In short, it will never end.
    The difference between the two requests, is that blue eyes for Blood Elves is a request for a customisation that lorewise they should be able to have as they had it in the past and otherwise biologically identical high elf exiles have been known to sport blue eyes. As the exiles are a political faction of a Horde race that has not been differentiated from Blood Elves beyond politics, blue eyes should not be off the table. As the exiles are not a playable part of the Alliance, the Alliance loses nothing from it's core identity with blood elves being able to express all options available to their uncorrupted race.

    As you admit that the appearance of the Blood Elves is what you are after (not indulging in some nonsense that high elves and blood elves are different) you run into issues the blue eyed request does not. Namely that the Void Elves only exist as they do now because that was the way to differentiate them from Blood Elves and allow the Alliance their own flavour of Void Elves. De-voiding Void Elves defeats the point of creating them in the first place. This request is far, far less likely to be granted.

  18. #14898
    Lol, just noticed that Obelisk Kai's signature "quote" wasn't actually the real statement but simply another example of twisting the facts to suit his agenda xD (not sure how I haven't noticed that before). As for blue eyed Blood Elves, I doubt Blizzard would risk that kind of move just to satisfy the small part of belf players who want a third eye color, but I guess we'll see.

    Edit: Me being an idiot
    Last edited by Uthan; 2020-04-05 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Stupidity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uthan View Post
    Lol, just noticed that Obelisk Kai's signature "quote" wasn't actually the real statement but simply another example of twisting the facts to suit his agenda xD (not sure how I haven't noticed that before). As for blue eyed Blood Elves, I doubt Blizzard would risk that kind of move just to satisfy the small part of belf players who want a third eye color, but I guess we'll see.
    Haven't watched the video in years but if you listen to his answer the whole way throug he actually says the approximate line twice, different the first time, but with added snark the second time which is probably why I quote that instance and not the first instance.

    https://youtu.be/AUik9-2ygS8?t=2860

    So, you hadn't noticed I was twisting things before because I wasn't twisting anything.

    As for 'risking that kind of move' I like to think Blizzard will prioritise those who are playing an actual race and give them more options rather than sparing the feelings of those who wish for a hypothetical.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-04-05 at 05:39 PM.

  20. #14900
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Haven't watched the video in years but if you listen to his answer the whole way throug he actually says the approximate line twice, different the first time, but with added snark the second time which is probably why I quote that instance and not the first instance.

    https://youtu.be/AUik9-2ygS8?t=2860

    So, you hadn't noticed I was twisting things before because I wasn't twisting anything.

    As for 'risking that kind of move' I like to think Blizzard will prioritise those who are playing an actual race and give them more options rather than sparing the feelings of those who wish for a hypothetical.
    Ah, all my bad then Dx (went and doublechecked the same video before posting as I also hadn't watched it in years but didn't realize there was another take at the end). Sorry!

    I for one will likely quit the game if they were to give an alliance thing to the horde just like that (blue eyed thalassians having been an alliance thing since vanilla), not that I expect many others to do the same, but I'm sure it'd be a sizeable shitshow regardless.

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