1. #15001
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And then we got void elves and nightborne. Makes one think that what Blizzard says and what Blizzard does are not exactly in sync with one-another.
    Not really, you cling to those two races existing as some sort of winning argument and have done for years now despite it being dismantled again and again and again. Blizzard doesn't want to grant the exact same races to the other faction, they said nothing about variants. Nightborne and Void Elves are variants and not identical to Blood Elves and Night Elves. High Elves are identical to Blood Elves and those are disallowed.

    So Identical=not allowed and Variant=allowed, though they probably aren't keen on it. Frankly the only reason they probably invented Void Elves was to give the pro High Elf people something. And unhappy forum minority excepted, Void Elves being the most popular allied race shows they made a good call.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm bolding the first part because those are my exact feelings toward you. The lore behind the blood elves would not change at all if high elves were made into a playable race for the Alliance.
    Except it's not about lore, it's about identity. Blood Elves are high elves, high elves are part of the Horde faction, if you want to play a traditional high elf you should have the decency to play Horde. And the lore for high elven exiles would have to change because Blizzard has been insistent that they are almost all dead as a justification for not adding them. Remember, there is a difference between a reason and a justification. The reason high elves weren't added is because Blood Elves are a Horde race and adding the same race to the Alliance undermines faction diversity.
    A justification is an explanation in lore, they are almost dead. If they weren't almost all dead, arguing they shouldn't be a part of the Alliance would be a much harder argument to make.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet we have the gnomes... who were also "almost dead" when Gnomeregan got irradiated. We also have the void elves, who are little more than a "research group" that suffered huge losses in the war.
    I thankyou for falling into the trap of using Gnomes as a comparison. It allows me to go back to that very first no from September 2005 where someone made the exact same point regarding Gnomes being playable and high elves not being playable.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are still some High Elves in the land, but the majority of those once known as the Quel'dorei no longer fit the bill of "High Elf".

    Your comparison with Gnomeregan is a logical conclusion to draw, but incorrect. The Gnomes managed to evacuate a good percentage of their people from their home as it was corrupted from within. Ironforge was close by; they were able to save a good number of their people. Naturally they were indebted to the Dwarves and, by extension, the Alliance, so they fight for their cause.

    The High Elves had less of a chance to flee, as they were surrounded by the vast bulk of the Scourge army as they pressed in and destroyed the Sunwell. Still, some survived, certainly enough to show a presence, right?

    And so they did after the destruction of Quel'thalas, fighting for the Alliance, but with the destruction of the Sunwell they found an ever-increasing need, an addiction, for magical power. The remaining Elves were placed under the command of a man named Garithos, who was grossly intolerant of other races and drove the Elves into near-suicidal situations in the hopes they would no longer be his problem.

    These remnants of the High Elves -- named Blood Elves in remembrance of their people -- were not stupid, and the commands from their "Alliance" became more and more ludicrous. It was only through the help of the Naga that they were able to survive these grim tasks; time and again, they appeared to aid Prince Kael'thas and his men. The Blood Elves came to realize they could no longer trust in the Alliance. When the offer was extended to join the Naga in service of Illidan Stormrage -- and perhaps find a cure to their addiction to magic -- Kael took it, leaving the Alliance behind.

    In short, High Elves are not playable because there are very few true "High Elves" left -- far less so than Gnomes. While there are Blood Elves in much larger supply, they are busy with other pursuits alongside Illidan. You'd certainly not see them fighting side by side with the Alliance anytime soon, not after such betrayal.
    So the Gnome counterpoint was debunked nearly fifteen years ago. I don't feel I need to rebut it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, that's an actual response that makes explicit one huge fact that those who are against the implementation of high elves as a playable race do their best to ignore and avoid: what Blizzard says is not immutable gospel, and that they have changed their minds in the past.
    I'm afraid it is a lazy response, predicated on the notion that Blizzard is fated to give in on everything with enough time. Each item they changed their minds on has unique circumstances and rationales behind those changes in direction and rather than trying to understand each one in it's own way you've simply compiled a list and declared it evidence they can change their minds. Which, as I repeatedly stated, is something that does need to be proved. We know they can do that. All the evidence amassed across the fifteen years since the Caydiem post though, including the fact it's been fifteen years, strongly indicates why they aren't for turning. Each statement builds upon those that came previously.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Same for Blood elves who aren't listed as High elves, but as the Blood elves they are and will ever be.

    You always contradict yourself.
    Lorewise high elves were renamed Blood Elves and Blood Elves are in no other way different from who they were twenty years ago. You'll find that the citizens of Upper Volta or Zaire or didn't magically become different people once the names of their countries were changed to Burkino Faso and Congo. A name change doesn't change who they are and you place much too much emphasis on an adjective.

    Void Elves in contrast got blasted by void energy, turned blue and grew tentacles. They've a bit more going on behind their change.

  2. #15002
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except that, according to the lore, it's highly unlikely the high elves would ever join the Horde, considering their recent past. Not to mention that's like saying the nightborne should be on the Alliance.


    But you're fine with the Horde having the Alliance's most popular race? I.e. the night elves? Doesn't that stink of hypocrisy to you?
    As far as I know there are no night elves in the horde, not even random npcs. I'm not sure what you're talking about. If by chance you are refering to nightborne then that is a subrace of nightelves which have evolved in over 10 000 years of isolation and exposure to the nightwell. I don't think anyone sees them as Night Elves. As a Night Elf fan myself, I don't see them as Night Elves, their skeletal structure and culture are completely different. That would be like someone saying that Alliance already have high/blood elves - look at void elves.

    High Elves vs Blood Elves are way too similar to exist on both factions, physically difference is literally the color of their eyes. There hasn't been any other unique features which have evolved to make them different - no amount of blue tatoos is going to change that. If Blood Elves had developed some sort of horns or whatever from fel magic exposure then fine, but they did not - the opposite in fact happened - the sunwell got restored and their magic additiction got sated, pretty much to like how it was before the third war. They are now Blood Elves in name only.

    If Blizzard wanted High Elves for alliance, they should've added them at the same time as Blood Elves for the horde - either as seperate faction choices or something similar to Pandaren journey. Now its too late, Blood Elves have become staple race of the horde.
    Last edited by Sinraye; 2020-03-13 at 12:38 PM.

  3. #15003
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They did. They turned some Blood Elves, who are high elves, into Void Elves who are another flavour of high elf, another form of high elf. That was mission accomplished. Holding out for perfection and torturing yourself because of that ensures those who wanted high elves are denying themselves what they asked for because it wasn't exactly what they wanted.
    Nobody is "torturing themselves" over not being able to play High Elves. The hyperbole needs to end. Most are either playing other games or playing WoW or going on about their lives. Heck this thread isn't as active as it once was because there's not a lot to talk about regarding High Elves atm. How is that not indication that people aren't torturing themselves and simply going about their days until they get something they'd like in the game? Seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That is a bratty reaction, there were good reasons Void Elves were altered before being added to the Alliance and the entire pro High Elf movement has shown a remarkable lack of understanding when it comes to seeing things from the other side of the argument by refusing to accept the validity of the red lines that meant Void Elves needed to be different to justify their inclusion. Void Elves are the compromise. Void Elves are also almost certainly 'it'.
    Calling it a bratty reaction does nothing but minimize that there's lots of players in the community who have legitimate criticisms with how Void Elves were handled and the hypocritical response given about High Elves during a time when Nightborne were also given.

    This is the reason I bring up your BFA review, what I am showcasing is you commenting as if they are utterly logical and infallible regarding their statements on High Elves, yet you only comment this way because it fits with your heavy bias. You are not arguing it from a position where even many in the community who are neutral have also stated the Blizzard responses were illogical and hypocritical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is possible for the developers to be right on one thing and profoundly wrong on others.

    Frankly, there needs to be a better critique than I excoriated them on some decisions and support them on others so I'm a hypocrite because that is just a downright silly attitude.
    It is possible sure. But again that is not how your comments come off on the matter, you tend to argue that the developers words and their ideas are infallible, you do not come off as "regarding these matters I find their stance suitable." Nope, you argue "these developers know 100% what they're doing and understand the pillars of their game and are doing all they can to make sure those pillars do not crumble! WORD OF GOD" and yada yada.

    Then comes your BFA review trashing that they had no idea what they were doing. So is it inconceivable that just because you may not find 'wrong', that others do? Leaving High Elf topic for a moment, it's not even a secret that the way Void Elves themselves were implemented is considered the worst way to implement any new playable option. People, who don't even care about the High Elf topic, still comment on how Void Elves were introduced in one of the worst ways possible with such defunct lore (what lore? they'd say) that trying to minimize the criticisms aimed at them and act as if developers can do no wrong is hurtful to future implementations of race options.

    You come off as someone who often doesn't share their opinions because you want to be part of the status quo, because you often never want to be wrong. So you wait in silence until your position is the status quo and then become outspoken on those matters. This reduces the chances you'll have people challenging your opinions. Just like how I've stated in the past you were so completely wrong about not getting Nightborne before they were revealed to be an Allied Race.

    But it's okay though if you're like this. As I said, no one has to be beholden to your opinions. Nobody has to "get Obelisk Kai's blessing" and Blizzard isn't waiting on what you have to say to make their decision regarding their matters.

    On top of their own internal decision making, they take from the playerbase their collective feedback (such as the recent changes to account wide essences next week). And it's not hard to see that collective feedback shows this:

    1) High Elves for Alliance still maintains the most popular race request
    2) Void Elves were introduced in a hamfisted way that has yet to be paid off
    3) Even Void Elf fans want to secure High Elf skins

    It's simply a matter of time before Alliance gets its form of High Elves playable among its faction's playerbase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    None of the other options have been explicitly ruled out as high elves were.
    Because none of the other options had their question frequently asked within a QA. Do you believe, looking back now that BFA finished, their answer for Mogu/Ogre/Hozen/San'layn would be categorically different?

    They would give the same intended "No plans right now but anything's possible in the future". How would they be able to give any other answer? It's clear they already knew what Allied Races they were going to include for BFA, and that was the context of the question itself "why Void Elves instead of High Elves for Allied Race." Even Ion's answer, which you often like to remove this portion of his reponse, included "in an faction based expansion".

    Does this mean Ogres are not Horde faction material? No, it would be preposterous for one to think so, but they were not added during BFA so they must not be considered such going by your logic. That's silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    We also have no idea how they will implement extra customization options. You keep putting forth the idea that a Bronzebeard Dwarf with Wildhammer tattoos is going to be a a Wildhammer Dwarf rather than a Bronzebeard Dwarf with wildhammer tattoos. It depends upon how they implement it, if it is just an option added with no further explanation then it's probably a Bronzebeard Dwarf with wildhammer tattoos and frankly I would be surprised if they added any lore explanations to any of the extra customizations we are getting given the sheer volume heading our way.
    I don't get your point here. I believe we've discussed this matter before and the feedback/evidence that majority of playerbase given regarding WH Dwarves as increased customization favors my side.

    That is to say, it doesn't matter if Wildhammer Dwarves are "Bronzebeard with dwarven tattoos" because the concept that is a Wildhammer Dwarf meets all expectations: It's a Hill Dwarf with tattoos that's available on the Alliance side. People are ecstatic, because it nails everything: Faction, race, and classes.

    That I've argued they won't have WH Dwarf racials is minor, as people care more that they can look and play as the character they want to be on their chosen side.

    If WH Dwarves were given to Horde for some innane reason you'd have many in the Horde laughing and cheering at their new dwarven option while many in the Alliance upset one of their iconic races has gone to Horde side. It would be a shitshow of equal or greater proportions to when Void Elves first came out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    A Void Elf with high elf like tones is still going to be a Void Elf though. The thing about allied races, and we've been over this before, is that we know where they come from and how they got here. Players who roleplay are entitled to do with their characters as they please, but they can't expect everyone else to indulge. Were I to /who a void elf with high elf skin tones, it would still list them as a Void Elf.
    Read above: it doesn't matter to the general playerbase. Why do you think so many cheered at the Troll options shown during the Blizzcon reveal of increased customizations? The playerbase doesn't give a shit that "tan sand trolls aren't darkspear" they're happy to "play the different troll tribes", especially if we get forest troll coloration among them. You will see most forest troll fans heralding, "I can finally play a forest troll!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinraye View Post
    I don't see them as Night Elves
    They are Night Elves. Their island team literally carries "The Highborne" moniker which is what the upper class of Night Elf society called themselves. Highborne is a Night Elven societal term. All Nightborne all Highborne, thus all Nightborne are Night Elves.

  4. #15004
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Lorewise high elves were renamed Blood Elves and Blood Elves are in no other way different from who they were twenty years ago. You'll find that the citizens of Upper Volta or Zaire or didn't magically become different people once the names of their countries were changed to Burkino Faso and Congo. A name change doesn't change who they are and you place much too much emphasis on an adjective.

    Void Elves in contrast got blasted by void energy, turned blue and grew tentacles. They've a bit more going on behind their change.
    Because all that happened to Blood elves was a name change, obviously.

    Let's not talk about the annihilation of 90% of their population, the change in regime (Thing that High elves avoided by no longer being Quel'thalas citizens.), the lack of the substance that maintained them stable and the uses of smaller and dosified amounts of that substance (Through methods that High elves didn't shared.), and even the use of other substances as replacement (Like Fel, Valeera shows Blood elves consumed some amount of fel in some way and/or quantity, thing that High elves didn't do.), the change on their fountain of power that they, as rulers of Quel'thalas utterly own, and all that it implied (Never returning to the ways of the Church of the Light, for example, having abandoned it even before that.), the drastic difference in allies, like, you know, the Horde instead of the Alliance, the abandonment of traditionalism in the use of certain magics and beliefs, not abandoning the place where they have had their nation since seven thousand years ago, etc, etc, etc...

    Just a damn name change, obviously.

    Not any of the two groups is the same they were before the Scourge invasion, and as of today, the two of them are different.
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  5. #15005
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Because all that happened to Blood elves was a name change, obviously.

    Let's not talk about the annihilation of 90% of their population, the change in regime (Thing that High elves avoided by no longer being Quel'thalas citizens.), the lack of the substance that maintained them stable and the uses of smaller and dosified amounts of that substance (Through methods that High elves didn't shared.), and even the use of other substances as replacement (Like Fel, Valeera shows Blood elves consumed some amount of fel in some way and/or quantity, thing that High elves didn't do.), the change on their fountain of power that they, as rulers of Quel'thalas utterly own, and all that it implied (Never returning to the ways of the Church of the Light, for example, having abandoned it even before that.), the drastic difference in allies, like, you know, the Horde instead of the Alliance, the abandonment of traditionalism in the use of certain magics and beliefs, not abandoning the place where they have had their nation since seven thousand years ago, etc, etc, etc...

    Just a damn name change, obviously.

    Not any of the two groups is the same they were before the Scourge invasion, and as of today, the two of them are different.

    Okay, but they're not biologically different. By your logic we should have ARs for every single group made up of the same damn race.

    Let's have defias humans, stromgarde humans, exiled lorderon humans, uncorrupted gilneans.

    Come on its silly. This is why shadowlands are making wildhammers and others as such as customization options. Because despite culture differences they're the same fucking bilogical race.
    Unlike dark iron or maghar who have very clear differences.

    This is why playable kt humans are strictly the fat ones only. Because normal humans are already playable via stormwind.

    Essentially high elves would be the equivalent of giving horde normal humans and calling them defias humans or giving the alliance all the humans i listed and marketing them as new ARs.

    Its a joke.
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-03-13 at 02:57 PM.

  6. #15006
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Any high elves who hypothetically are resurrected in Shadowlands will almost assuredly join their blood elf kin. Why? Because it is the blood elves ho fought alongside their fallen kin, it is the blood elves who honored their fallen. The high elves of the alliance on the other hand went running to that human potential. So I highly doubt any hypothetically resurrected high elves would choose alliance aligned high elves over blood elves.
    Well... the HE do have a big hatred for the Trolls, and even more now that the Horde have the Zandalari in their ranks, it could be a reason for them to be completely against the idea and see the BE as "those who lost their way".

    In general, i think that if they join the Alliance or Horde depends on how well they explain such events.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    They are Night Elves. Their island team literally carries "The Highborne" moniker which is what the upper class of Night Elf society called themselves. Highborne is a Night Elven societal term. All Nightborne all Highborne, thus all Nightborne are Night Elves.
    I don't think this is a really fair way to put it, i mean... they do come from the same society, so its normal that they share somethings, like how they still have temples of Elune, in the end, Shalassian is an offshot language from Darnassian, so its normal that they still share some terms.

  7. #15007
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Okay, but they're not biologically different. By your logic we should have ARs for every single group made up of the same damn race.
    Excuse me my fine dude, that's you own logic, stop projecting your own logic on me, I have told you many times.

    Let's have defias humans, stromgarde humans, exiled lorderon humans, uncorrupted gilneans.
    Why? I can only see the Stromgarde humans as Horde AR but the rest? What kind of strawman is this?

    Come on its silly. This is why shadowlands are making wildhammers and others as such as customization options. Because despite culture differences they're the same fucking bilogical race.
    'Wildhammer' players will miss out on racials, voicelines, adequate class selection, proper Wildhammer mount, proper Wildhammer heritage armor, etc...

    But yeah, keep playing devil's advocate just to support a pity posture.

    Unlike dark iron or maghar who have very clear differences.
    Skin tone.

    This is why playable kt humans are strictly the fat ones only. Because normal humans are already playable via stormwind.
    It's just a model, NPC humans will have any model the designers feel at the moment regardless from where they are.

    Essentially high elves would be the equivalent of giving horde normal humans and calling them defias humans or giving the alliance all the humans i listed and marketing them as new ARs.

    Its a joke.
    And?

    Literally, and?

    High elves have been Alliance all this time, it would be simply a fix on currently unavailable player choice, the same way Dark Iron Dwarves weren't available but officially part of the Alliance through Bronzebeard Dwarves.

    What is a joke is to still pretend that all this is just an asking for a copy of a Horde race, willingly ignoring all the context and logic.
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  8. #15008
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    BTW i still think that the best way to add HE (if they ever do), is to give them a new model, the humans and... well... most main character have proven, that you can have a different model regardless if you're of the same race.

    I mean, we have already seen HE with different models with Nozdormu "mortal" form

  9. #15009
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Monkey's paw:

    Alliance gets High Elves which are Blood elves with blue eyes
    Horde gets an entirely new race with expansive customization
    Ogres or naga, please.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  10. #15010
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Ogres or naga, please.
    I would love to have the Naga in the Horde, heck, the first allies the BE had after leaving the Alliance were the Nagas!

    Regardless, it would be a slap in the face if they add them with the HEs as they are in game already (same models as BE)

  11. #15011
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Excuse me my fine dude, that's you own logic, stop projecting your own logic on me, I have told you many times.


    Why? I can only see the Stromgarde humans as Horde AR but the rest? What kind of strawman is this?


    'Wildhammer' players will miss out on racials, voicelines, adequate class selection, proper Wildhammer mount, proper Wildhammer heritage armor, etc...

    But yeah, keep playing devil's advocate just to support a pity posture.


    Skin tone.


    It's just a model, NPC humans will have any model the designers feel at the moment regardless from where they are.


    And?

    Literally, and?

    High elves have been Alliance all this time, it would be simply a fix on currently unavailable player choice, the same way Dark Iron Dwarves weren't available but officially part of the Alliance through Bronzebeard Dwarves.

    What is a joke is to still pretend that all this is just an asking for a copy of a Horde race, willingly ignoring all the context and logic.
    It is your logic. You told obelisk that they are different because of all the cultural reasons. So going by that then every group should have the potential to be an AR. Which is why i used all those human groups as an example.

    I'll tell you "and". The problem is saturating the damn game with redundant races just because some players cant get past the fact that technically high elves exist in the horde, just not the extremely specific group of high elves they want.

    Its like demanding to play a gilnean human because you identify more with gilnean culture instead of SW or worgens.

    How unbelievably stupid would it be if blizz just started pandering like that.

    The fact that wildhammers are a customisation option over an AR or that maghar orcs have multiple orc clans into 1 race proves my point.
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-03-13 at 03:40 PM.

  12. #15012
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    It is your logic. You told obelisk that they are different because of all the cultural reasons. So going by that then every group should have the potential to be an AR. Which is why i used all those human groups as an example.
    My logic is that High elves have, are, and will be Alliance, Varx. Your logic is that my logic has to be whatever fits your view.

    I'll tell you "and". The problem is saturating the damn game with redundant races just because some players cant get past the fact that technically high elves exist in the horde, just not the extremely specific group of high elves they want.
    Please go yell at the Mag'har then, I don't believe you are ok with them when they are Orcs with a different skin tone, with the excuse of the alternative universe in a bad taste way to give them some kind of a special theme.

    Its like demanding to play a gilnean human because you identify more with gilnean culture instead of SW or worgens.
    Not forcing worgen players to transform could be cool tho.

    How unbelievably stupid would it be if blizz just started pandering like that.
    That's your opinion, not an empirical fact.

    The fact that wildhammers are a customisation option over an AR proves my point.
    It proves you are ok with whatever crap they come up with when it fits your stance on a discussion.

    You, in an excercise of pure antagonism, willingly ignored why them being a customization option will be detrimental to having a complete playable option experience.
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  13. #15013
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    I would love to have the Naga in the Horde, heck, the first allies the BE had after leaving the Alliance were the Nagas!

    Regardless, it would be a slap in the face if they add them with the HEs as they are in game already (same models as BE)
    Oh, I miss the times when blood elves and nagas worked together. I want it now.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  14. #15014
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    My logic is that High elves have, are, and will be Alliance, Varx. Your logic is that my logic has to be whatever fits your view.


    Please go yell at the Mag'har then, I don't believe you are ok with them when they are Orcs with a different skin tone, with the excuse of the alternative universe in a bad taste way to give them some kind of a special theme.


    Not forcing worgen players to transform could be cool tho.


    That's your opinion, not an empirical fact.


    It proves you are ok with whatever crap they come up with when it fits your stance on a discussion.

    You, in an excercise of pure antagonism, willingly ignored why them being a customization option will be detrimental to having a complete playable option experience.
    No you clearly mentioned Every cultural difference or experience not just the fact that their alliance. So going by that then defias joining the horde would be ok and not completely redundant or pandery.

    All you're doing is just saying "oh hey this exists and some players identify with the VERY SPECIFIC group dispite the race already being playable so lets just make them an AR and give them new racials"

    From a marketing stand point and resource stand point its completly illogical to just pump out new races just to pander to a few players who HAVE to RP to the T.

    For you it sounds good on paper but you're thinking wishfully and like a fan not as a game developer.

    Imagine the share holders reaction when blizz announces high elves for the alliance and freaking ogres for the horde. Come on man...
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-03-13 at 03:52 PM.

  15. #15015
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    No you clearly mentioned Every cultural difference or experience not just the fact that their alliance. So going by that then defias joining the horde would be ok and not completely redundant or pandery.
    You are rounding up so many complex things as if it was so simple is not even funny, make a case, please.

    All you're doing is just saying "oh hey this exists and some players identify with the VERY SPECIFIC group dispite the race already being playable so lets just make them an AR and give them new racials"
    And that's a big miss from your part, since all I ever said was that High elves are part of the Alliance, and Alliance players don't have that part of their faction available to play.

    From a marketing stand point,l and source stand point its completly illogical to just pump out new races just to pander to a few players who HAVE to RP to the T.
    I see you are approaching a strategy where you pretend to have deeper knowledge about the matter in question through other areas that might be relevant, what a fail, it just takes someone to see just a bit under the façade.

    Marketing's role is to sell anything through appropriate methods, your oh-so-enlightening point just shows an attempt to look as if you have deeper and more important points than what you actually have.

    For you it sounds good on paper but you're thinking wishfully and like a fan not as a game developer.
    Yeah, because the stupid fans never ever know what's good. Is it?

    Imagine the share holders reaction when blizz announces high elves for the alliance and freaking ogres for the horde. Come on man...
    Not only you think you can give proper points about marketing but also about shareholders?

    I don't know who you have convinced in the past by presenting points like this, nor I don't want to know what these people are, but is not working with me.

    Stop pretending to give deeper and important points when you are clearly coming up with that stuff, please, it's disrespecting.
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  16. #15016
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    You are rounding up so many complex things as if it was so simple is not even funny, make a case, please.


    And that's a big miss from your part, since all I ever said was that High elves are part of the Alliance, and Alliance players don't have that part of their faction available to play.


    I see you are approaching a strategy where you pretend to have deeper knowledge about the matter in question through other areas that might be relevant, what a fail, it just takes someone to see just a bit under the façade.

    Marketing's role is to sell anything through appropriate methods, your oh-so-enlightening point just shows an attempt to look as if you have deeper and more important points than what you actually have.


    Yeah, because the stupid fans never ever know what's good. Is it?


    Not only you think you can give proper points about marketing but also about shareholders?

    I don't know who you have convinced in the past by presenting points like this, nor I don't want to know what these people are, but is not working with me.

    Stop pretending to give deeper and important points when you are clearly coming up with that stuff, please, it's disrespecting.
    You dont need a degree in marketing and economics to have common sense in this matter. Races and classes are the biggest selling points in this game. The alliance already got thalassian elves in velves. You really think the majority of alliance players will feel appreciated when they get another rehash thats even less unique aaesthetically while the horde gets something brand new.

    Ffs look at the vulpera and mechagnome fiasco. At least mechagnome look different than gnomes. Can you same the same for helves/belves?? Now imagine you get blue eyes belves and the horde gets light undead, ogres, etc, etc and you tell me blizz stock will be the same as if the alliance got something new too. As if alliance doesn't cry out horde bias enough.

    And sure some fans have good feedback like account wide essences. But helves after u got velves, lol okay nerd go back to ur nachos and lord of the rings collectors set is what blizz would say.

    Just because the alliance has helves is not a reason to add them. The horde also has taunka, hozen, kt humans, banshees, abiminations, etc. Doesnt mean any of those should be playable.
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-03-13 at 04:27 PM.

  17. #15017
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    You dont need a degree in marketing and economics to have common sense in this matter. Races and classes are the biggest selling points in this game. The alliance already got thalassian elves in velves. You really think the majority of alliance players will feel appreciated when they get another rehash thats even less unique aaesthetically while the horde gets something brand new.
    Well, wanna play common sense?

    What's bad for shareholders to 'resell' an already popular option as Blood elves with a variant? Oh yeah, they would be super upset about the same things you are upset about.

    What's bad for marketing? If marketing's role is to sell things? They would announce it as the next coming of Jesus Christ as they do with anything else.

    And about other players, you are very naive to think any addition has to please everyone. Look at mechagnomes, that disgusting concept has made it into the game, alongside Void elves and Draenei but even more into light than Draenei. Has the game collapsed in on itself and died? Well I'm still playing it so my sources are pretty good for me to say it didn't.

    You are repeating that High elves would be a simple copy without nothing more than your word, while others can also say that they could (and should) come with extra customization and aesthetics for them (apart from what they have now).

    Have Brown Orcs came with just that? Brown skin and that's all just like fans wanted all along? Food for though.

    Ffs look at the vulpera and mechagnome fiasco. At least mechagnome look different than gnomes. Can you same the same for helves/belves?? Now imagine you get blue eyes belves and the horde gets light undead, ogres, etc, etc and you tell me blizz stock will be the same as of the alliance got something new too.
    What a 'fiasco'. Is not like there are people being happy with their mechagnomes and everything that Blizzard introduces has to be agreed by a majority of the playerbase. Nu-uh b0i.

    And sure some fans have good feedback like account wide essences. But helves after u got velves, lol okay nerd go back to ur nachos and lord of the rings collectors set is what blizz would say.
    You didn't had enough with pretending to be a Blizzard marketing employee and a Blizzard shareholder that you also present your opinion as plainly Blizzard's as a whole?

    Just because the alliance has helves is not a reason to add them. The horde also has taunka, houjin, kt humans, banshees, abiminations, etc. Doesnt mean any of those should be playable.
    Yes, it's a reason for that.

    No, I'm not gonna start asking for other things just because you tend to round up things. I'm asking for what I'm asking, keep your ill charged responses to yourself.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2020-03-13 at 04:35 PM.
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  18. #15018
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    So Identical=not allowed and Variant=allowed,
    Then there's your answer: make the high elves more distinguished from the blood elves. Hairstyles are apparently more than enough to satisfy the "different silhouette", and tattoos and other body markings can be added too.

    Blood Elves are high elves, high elves are part of the Horde faction,
    False. Blood elves are part of the Horde faction. Not high elves. High elves are part of the Alliance faction. I honestly cannot fathom how one can constantly go against objective information shown over and over again in the game and lore.

    I thankyou for falling into the trap of using Gnomes as a comparison.
    It's amazing how you think you got a "gotcha" so hard you completely missed the point. Lore can be changed or expanded upon. Case in point: the high elves were just those of the Quel'lithien, but then the Wrath of the Lich King expansion came along and added a whole bunch of new high elves in Dalaran.

    I'm afraid it is a lazy response
    But it's not. You only call it "lazy" because you know you cannot honestly answer it and must use ad-hoc rationalization to avoid answering the argument while still making yourself look "superior" and "still 'winning'".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinraye View Post
    As far as I know there are no night elves in the horde, not even random npcs. I'm not sure what you're talking about. If by chance you are refering to nightborne then that is a subrace of nightelves which have evolved in over 10 000 years of isolation and exposure to the nightwell.
    The nightborne possess the same model (which minute differences), are also purple, and have the same animations. They also "take" a huge chunk of night elf lore. Hell, they even call themselves "highborne" and Suramar is the birth place of Tyrande.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  19. #15019
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Well, wanna play common sense?

    What's bad for shareholders to 'resell' an already popular option as Blood elves with a variant? Oh yeah, they would be super upset about the same things you are upset about.

    What's bad for marketing? If marketing's role is to sell things? They would announce it as the next coming of Jesus Christ as they do with anything else.

    And about other players, you are very naive to think any addition has to please everyone. Look at mechagnomes, that disgusting concept has made it into the game, alongside Void elves and Draenei but even more into light than Draenei. Has the game collapsed in on itself and died? Well I'm still playing it so my sources are pretty good for me to say it didn't.

    You are repeating that High elves would be a simple copy without nothing more than your word, while others can also say that they could (and should) come with extra customization and aesthetics for them (apart from what they have now).

    Have Brown Orcs came with just that? Brown skin and that's all just like fans wanted all along? Food for though.


    What a 'fiasco'. Is not like there are people being happy with their mechagnomes and everything that Blizzard introduces has to be agreed by a majority of the playerbase. Nu-uh b0i.


    You didn't had enough with pretending to be a Blizzard marketing employee and a Blizzard shareholder that you also present your opinion as Blizzard's period?


    Yes, it's a reason for that.

    No, I'm not gonna start asking for other things just because you tend to round up things. I'm asking for what I'm asking, keep your ill charged responses to yourself.
    Look we could keep going back and foward all day but the facts remain.

    Wildhammers tattoo options, maghar having multiple orcs clans in 1 race, and the fact that blizzard gave the alliance an asspull race in velves instead of high elves when their lore was already solidified is proof of what blizzard thinks of helves as their own race. It's not going to happen, its right in front of your face.

    Like why give velves when helves are in such high demand. Because they're already playable lmao.

  20. #15020
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Calling it a bratty reaction does nothing but minimize that there's lots of players in the community who have legitimate criticisms with how Void Elves were handled and the hypocritical response given about High Elves during a time when Nightborne were also given.
    Calling it a bratty reaction is appropriate. If you gave a child a present that was very similar but not exactly what they wanted and there were circumstances at play that prevented you from giving what exactly was wanted, say (to continue the child analogy) the present they wanted was owned and played with by another child they knew and they wanted that specific one, then yes, an upset reaction would be correctly categorised as bratty.

    In this case, there are genuine red lines which prevented them from granting an exact duplicate of a core Horde race to the Alliance which the hardcore pro High Elf community disregards or ignores and holds in such contempt that they cannot conceive as to why they've been denied, hence the rejection of the Void Elf compromise by the hardcore.

    And the Nightborne are as varied from the Night Elves as Void Elves are from Blood/High Elves. Both are variants whose parent race is on the other faction. Variants were acceptable so long as they were different enough not to cross the red lines laid down. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that the reason the Horde got the Nightborne was to justify giving Void Elves to the Alliance, a variant for a variant.

    Identical is not acceptable however. That really does damage faction diversity, hence why they developed those variants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    This is the reason I bring up your BFA review, what I am showcasing is you commenting as if they are utterly logical and infallible regarding their statements on High Elves, yet you only comment this way because it fits with your heavy bias. You are not arguing it from a position where even many in the community who are neutral have also stated the Blizzard responses were illogical and hypocritical.
    They've maintained the stance that Blood Elves are high elves for nearly fifteen years now. It is telling I can go back to the Caydiem post in 2005 and still find what she said at the time is applicable to what they've said on the topic in 2018. You will also find I was defending their stance on not adding high elves during the Warlord of Draenor era and I wasn't complimentary about that expansion either. This is a daft line of reasoning on your part predicated on your own bias, that they are wrong and that their foolish errors on other parts of the game prove they are wrong as evidenced by your claim that 'others' say Blizzard responses were illogical and hypocritical.

    They've made mistakes they are rightfully excoriated for. Preserving faction distinctiveness and integrity is not one of those mistakes. As long as there are two factions, those two factions should be respected. And should they ever remove those two factions you'll be allowed to play...a Blood Elf with Alliance players. Not sure how that counts as a win but I suspect objections Blood Elves aren't high elves will evaporate should that day come, highly unlikely as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    It is possible sure. But again that is not how your comments come off on the matter, you tend to argue that the developers words and their ideas are infallible, you do not come off as "regarding these matters I find their stance suitable." Nope, you argue "these developers know 100% what they're doing and understand the pillars of their game and are doing all they can to make sure those pillars do not crumble! WORD OF GOD" and yada yada.

    Then comes your BFA review trashing that they had no idea what they were doing. So is it inconceivable that just because you may not find 'wrong', that others do? Leaving High Elf topic for a moment, it's not even a secret that the way Void Elves themselves were implemented is considered the worst way to implement any new playable option. People, who don't even care about the High Elf topic, still comment on how Void Elves were introduced in one of the worst ways possible with such defunct lore (what lore? they'd say) that trying to minimize the criticisms aimed at them and act as if developers can do no wrong is hurtful to future implementations of race options.
    The importance of faction diversity is something of an abstract concept when compared to something more hands on such as the increasing systemification of the game or the benefits of a deterministic loot system versus the supposed excitement of a more RNG approach. Nor is an abstract concept as easy to judge as a story is, given story beats can be readily critiqued and character development evaluated. It's case of comparing apples to turnips then because you keep reach out for things to draw an equivalence with the high elf debate but the truth is, this particular strand of discussion is fairly unique.

    The desire for the exiles is itself an abstract demand. It will not improve the gameplay experience of the individual, they won't get more loot or become better at the game or become more powerful. Instead it a desire for personal gratification, to play a race they want on the faction they want, and there are multiple requests along these lines. The problem with this one, and the reason the devs are correct, is that it crashes against other abstract concepts.

    Would it damage faction diversity? Yes it would because whether people like it or not, Blood Elves and the exiles are the same race divided by an opinion. As Blood Elves are a Horde race, granting a duplicate of that race to the other side diminishes faction diversity.
    Is faction diversity important? Yes it is, factions only make sense if they are diverse. If factions are the same they become little more than what is your preferred colour, red or blue.
    Does the faction system help or harm Warcraft? Debateable, my own position is that it isn't cost free but that there are benefits and the benefits outweigh the costs. So long as the faction system endures, faction diversity is an important component of fostering faction adversity which is the point of having factions, having an enemy.
    Granting high elves to the Alliance undermines faction diversity, which in turn undermines faction adversity which in turns weakens a foundational pillar of the franchise.

    Hence what they have said on this unique topic, because no other topic deals with duplicating a core race of one faction to the other, is in fact true because the premise relies upon how you feel about the faction divide yourself. It is thus emblematic of a wider question.

    The 'how' of Void Elves being introduced is entirely separate from the 'why' they were introduced. In the long run only a few will care that their introduction was a badly written rush job. Their purpose was to provide a variant for the Blood Elves to join the Alliance and as none viable existed, one had to be created on the fly. Emphasis on the word variant there, a high elf in a bad tattoo (as was so often proposed) is as much a separate race from a Blood Elf as my brother is a separate race from me because of his tattoos.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You come off as someone who often doesn't share their opinions because you want to be part of the status quo, because you often never want to be wrong. So you wait in silence until your position is the status quo and then become outspoken on those matters. This reduces the chances you'll have people challenging your opinions. Just like how I've stated in the past you were so completely wrong about not getting Nightborne before they were revealed to be an Allied Race.
    I've been wrong plenty of times and I've happily shared my opinions on multiple topics which don't conform to the 'status quo'. In fact, you cite one yourself where you mention how I thought Nightborne wouldn't be added to the game before being revealed as a sub-race candidate. It is curious to claim one thing about me and then to provide the evidence that you are wrong yourself, all in the same paragraph. It is after all, about the evidence and where it points. The evidence at the time suggested playable Nightborne was unlikely but of course there was no commentary from the developers at that point on that topic, it was all based on opinion and precedent and I did indeed call it wrong. Conversely they've told us in very clear terms over the past two years that high elves aren't happening, why they aren't happening, and that the reason they aren't happening is still pretty important to them.
    Ignoring evidence shows up your own worst flaw, an inability to deal with that lack of evidence in support of your position and a tendency to leap upon any uttering, no matter how vague, and refashion it into a boost for your position no matter how unjustified. From blues asking for feedback to be kept in one place in forums threads, to Ion saying 'Anything is possible', to Void Elves skins being 'possible' to the most recent interview with a dev talking about certain positives of cross faction play, nothing it seems is too vague to not be a source of renewed hope for something they clearly, in very strong terms, on one occasion very clearly laughing at you, have ruled out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    But it's okay though if you're like this. As I said, no one has to be beholden to your opinions. Nobody has to "get Obelisk Kai's blessing" and Blizzard isn't waiting on what you have to say to make their decision regarding their matters.
    They don't need my blessing, they have it anyway on this topic due to their consistent and wise decisions on this particular topic. I don't think they particularly care either way mind you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    On top of their own internal decision making, they take from the playerbase their collective feedback (such as the recent changes to account wide essences next week). And it's not hard to see that collective feedback shows this:

    1) High Elves for Alliance still maintains the most popular race request
    2) Void Elves were introduced in a hamfisted way that has yet to be paid off
    3) Even Void Elf fans want to secure High Elf skins

    It's simply a matter of time before Alliance gets its form of High Elves playable among its faction's playerbase.
    That the compromise didn't please everyone was immaterial because nothing they do ever pleases everyone. Flying threads are still fairly endemic on the forums with each expansion grounding us after all and that is set to continue. They've given the Alliance void elves, you can make of them what they will but be in no doubt that the Alliance already has it's 'form' of high elves in the Void Elves, and a Void Elf with different skin tones is still a Void Elf. The traditional, standard high elf experience exists in one place alone and that is on the Horde as the Blood Elves.




    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Because none of the other options had their question frequently asked within a QA. Do you believe, looking back now that BFA finished, their answer for Mogu/Ogre/Hozen/San'layn would be categorically different?

    They would give the same intended "No plans right now but anything's possible in the future". How would they be able to give any other answer? It's clear they already knew what Allied Races they were going to include for BFA, and that was the context of the question itself "why Void Elves instead of High Elves for Allied Race." Even Ion's answer, which you often like to remove this portion of his reponse, included "in an faction based expansion".
    It's a faction based game, that was true before Batttle for Azeroth and given their responses at Blizzcon where they doubled down on rejecting cross faction play, it's going to be the truth for some time to come as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Does this mean Ogres are not Horde faction material? No, it would be preposterous for one to think so, but they were not added during BFA so they must not be considered such going by your logic. That's silly.
    Ogres are not currently playable as high elves are via Blood Elves and Void Elves. As such they fail as a point of a comparison.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I don't get your point here. I believe we've discussed this matter before and the feedback/evidence that majority of playerbase given regarding WH Dwarves as increased customization favors my side.

    That is to say, it doesn't matter if Wildhammer Dwarves are "Bronzebeard with dwarven tattoos" because the concept that is a Wildhammer Dwarf meets all expectations: It's a Hill Dwarf with tattoos that's available on the Alliance side. People are ecstatic, because it nails everything: Faction, race, and classes.

    That I've argued they won't have WH Dwarf racials is minor, as people care more that they can look and play as the character they want to be on their chosen side.

    If WH Dwarves were given to Horde for some innane reason you'd have many in the Horde laughing and cheering at their new dwarven option while many in the Alliance upset one of their iconic races has gone to Horde side. It would be a shitshow of equal or greater proportions to when Void Elves first came out.


    Read above: it doesn't matter to the general playerbase. Why do you think so many cheered at the Troll options shown during the Blizzcon reveal of increased customizations? The playerbase doesn't give a shit that "tan sand trolls aren't darkspear" they're happy to "play the different troll tribes", especially if we get forest troll coloration among them. You will see most forest troll fans heralding, "I can finally play a forest troll!"
    Once again, not everything is the same and there are critical nuances in the individual examples that render a one size fits all approach impossible. What happens with the Dwarves and the Trolls are irrelevant, the first thing you know about any Dwarf or Troll rolled in this game is that they are in Dun Morogh or the Echo Isles. That is it. Their backstory is entirely up to you. Same for every other core race, you are limited only by your imagination and the circumstances of the race. Your Dwarf could be a Wildhammer come south to learn mountain dwarf ways. Your troll could have had a forest troll mother. Entirely up to you.

    But we know what makes a Void Elf, getting zapped by enough void energy to trigger a transformation. There is a discrete set of events that makes a Void Elf. You cannot play a Void Elf who was never a Void Elf. You cannot play a Lightforged Draenei who never lightforged. You cannot play a Nightborne who wasn't a Nightborne. Certain races are circumscribed by their backstories. Many aren't. So the Wildhammer got what they wanted but what they wanted can never be replicated into what you want, being a genuine high elf using a void elf as a substitute. That simply doesn't work. A Void Elf is always going to be a Void Elf. You can roleplay an exile who was turned into a Void Elf, but never an exile who was never a Void Elf.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-13 at 04:59 PM.

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