1. #15021
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    So the devs made new lore stating new DKs are possible and not beholden to status quo made in Wrath, yet you think High Elves or Velf Paladins have to somehow stay beholden to a status quo of what's current? Especially when vanilla showed High Elves as sparse, then Wrath made them explode in population, relevance, and within the Alliance faction. And they've carried that forward since.

    This is how your logic looks daft. It comes off as 'devs do change what they want when they want but oh no you cannot touch anything about this particular subject nuh uh never ever whatsoever.'

    It's juvenile.
    That lore wasn't 'created' by the developers. The lore that reflects the new Death Knights has been present for years. The Lich King can raise Death knights. We currently have a non-antagonistic Lich King who wished to raise a new generation of death knights. Nothing has to be retconned, or rewritten, or reimagined to support this outcome. It was all there, ready-made and completely in harmony with the game world as it is actually is.

    As we saw with Void Elves, the developers are capable of inventing new lore in order to support new additions to the game, but as I recall the fact that Void Elves seemingly came out of nowhere is deployed as one of the biggest complaints about them. It is hypocritical in the extreme to say 'Blizzard could come up with brand new lore' to add high elves to the game for the Alliance whilst at the same time bitterly complaining about Blizzard inventing new lore to add high elves (and remember, Void Elves are a different flavour of high elf) to the Alliance because the new lore happened to render them blue. Now THAT is truly a juvenile attitude.

    As for the high elven exiles being relevant to the Alliance faction, not only is that claim spurious, it falls apart under even modest interrogation. They didn't 'explode', they added a few more in Dalaran. And the only time they were relevant to the Alliance was when Dalaran joined the Alliance. And the only time you really see them now is if Dalaran is involved. They are more Dalaran relevant than Alliance relevant.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-12 at 04:35 PM.

  2. #15022
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Monkey's paw:

    Alliance gets High Elves which are Blood elves with blue eyes
    Horde gets an entirely new race with expansive customization
    I don't think a lot of these alliance fans here mind, as longa s they get their blood elves with blue eyes. That is also worth factoring.

    Nightborne were designed to be a sub race variation of night elf. blood elves were not, they are the high elevs in a new direction, but high elves still remain. Void elves are the variation of blood elf on the alliance model wise. But Void elf doesn't render high elf or blood elf irrelevant or obsolete. And nightborne certainly doesn't render highborne or night elf obsolete, since its on the other faction

  3. #15023
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Nor would they if high elves became playable for the Alliance.
    Faction diversity was explicitly cited as the reason for high elves not being made playable as an Alliance race nearly TWO years ago.

    Maintaining a division between the factions was cited as a core pillar of World of Warcraft's development as recently as last Blizzcon.

    In other words, playable high elven exiles within the Alliance, a duplicate of a core Horde race, undermine the diversity of the two factions and therefore undermine the two faction system that currently underpins much of the game.

    Of course they have harm gameplay and it is disingenuous to say they don't simply because that facet of the game, the faction divide, is one you personally don't care about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're being very dishonest here since you're completely ignoring the fact that this "sole criteria" read, in its entirety, "individual must be dead BEFORE the Lich King's attack on Azeroth". Which was the reason pandaren and the allied races were excluded, and their starting zone was locked in time.

    You ignore the fact that a completely new starting zone was created. Completely new lore was written.

    And you're completely okay with that.

    But then you bring your double-standards to bear when you deny the "high elves as a playable race" the same courtesy.
    I fail to see how you are not getting the point. The lore that is behind the new Death Knights does not change anything we know previously and changes nothing in the status quo.

    High Elves are already playable as a Horde race, confirmed by multiple sources across a decade and a half of time from Chris Metzen to Ion Hazzikostas and their in game absence on the Alliance has been explained as them being almost all dead.

    What is disingenuous is you pushing a false equivalence that is easy to refute, but then continuing to push it as if it had not been refuted or the flaws pointed out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    For the record: you know something else "that would clearly never happen"? Classic servers. But here we are, aren't we?
    That's a lazy response that predicates that because they changed their mind on one thing they are definitely going to change their mind on another. Brack gave his infamous 'You think you do but you don't' response in November 2013 when they announced Warlords of Draenor. They changed their minds later due to a massive grassroots movement aimed at securing classic servers coupled with a culture change in the wider MMO industry which saw MMOs facilitating older versions of their worlds.

    In contrast the earliest negative response to the high elf community is from September 2005 when Caydiem explained why playable Alliance High Elves weren't a thing and every time Blizzard has commented on the topic in the nearly sixteen years since (four times longer than the vanilla server request being in the public consciousness) they have double down again and again and again on their desire not to duplicate a Horde race to the Alliance.

    A does not equal B. And just because A turned out one way does not mean B will turn out the same way. That they can change their minds is not a huge revelation that shakes the foundations of this argument, that is always priced in. What is also priced in is an analysis of why they changed their minds in each circumstance you can cite, and why that doesn't apply to the high elf exile request, and everything they have ever said which doubles down on the rejection of that request.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-12 at 04:44 PM.

  4. #15024
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    LB are evil zealots.
    I mean, that's one way to make the Alliance "actually evil" and close par with the Horde's aggression. I'm thinking of: Yrel and the Lightbound going after the Mag'har directly; Danath being a racist anti-Horde, Turalyon (and Alleria) inspired by Yrel being a warmongering High Commander of the Alliance, Vereesa and her High Elves continuing their open racism of the Blood Elves, and Tyrande being Daelin 2.0

    Since you said Calia, I'm thinking of making another thread for Forsaken Elf and another to mirror the High Elves as an Alliance offshoot of a Horde Race. Making it:

    Lightbound Orc - Alteraci Human
    Lightforged Undead - Forsaken Elf
    High Elf - Man'ari Eredar/Grimtotem Tauren/Forest Troll
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  5. #15025
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That lore wasn't 'created' by the developers. The lore that reflects the new Death Knights has been present for years. The Lich King can raise Death knights. We currently have a non-antagonistic Lich King who wished to raise a new generation of death knights. Nothing has to be retconned, or rewritten, or reimagined to support this outcome. It was all there, ready-made and completely in harmony with the game world as it is actually is.

    As we saw with Void Elves, the developers are capable of inventing new lore in order to support new additions to the game, but as I recall the fact that Void Elves seemingly came out of nowhere is deployed as one of the biggest complaints about them. It is hypocritical in the extreme to say 'Blizzard could come up with brand new lore' to add high elves to the game for the Alliance whilst at the same time bitterly complaining about Blizzard inventing new lore to add high elves (and remember, Void Elves are a different flavour of high elf) to the Alliance because the new lore happened to render them blue. Now THAT is truly a juvenile attitude.

    As for the high elven exiles being relevant to the Alliance faction, not only is that claim spurious, it falls apart under even modest interrogation. They didn't 'explode', they added a few more in Dalaran. And the only time they were relevant to the Alliance was when Dalaran joined the Alliance. And the only time you really see them now is if Dalaran is involved. They are more Dalaran relevant than Alliance relevant.
    It's basicaly a case of oh, these aren't the elves we wanted. Which fair enough, but doens't make void elves any less valid an option, but neither does having void elves somehow invalidate high elves, or makes them irrelevant and it certainlly doesn't make them less desired to some.

    Face it, I really don't think high elves will be as big a deal as mny think, because blood elves dominate that race, and all the assets are there. It would make a few people very very happy, and not change much for the vast majority.

    After playing both blood elves and void elves, the only thing that will make me play a high elf is an aalliance paaladin, i have all the other slots filled. And I like the elves alot, and have supported playable high elves. If i can feel that, I know most people aren't going to care, which supports the case for high elves. So if some people badly wanted, it seems meaningless to so vigorously oppose what they want.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As to why people are deadset against it, that has been explained multiple times over the year Ravenmoon. It's a duplicate of a Horde race in a game predicated on two factions knocking the stuffing out of each other so if you want to play a Horde race you should play Horde. Devaluing the factions whilst still trying to maintain a faction based game comes with a cost, that cost maybe relatively abstract but given the extent to which faction pride is still used as a motivating factor and how it impacts on player emotions (as the responses to the Alliance winning the war question proved at Blizzcon) this is one they are clearly loath to mess with and rightfully so.

    Faction diversity matters and pro High Elfers shouldn't act mystified as to why their goal is opposed when the reasons are continually provided.

    As for Highborne customisation, what exactly is that? The Highborne were an advanced caste within the Night Elf empire but they weren't physically different from the rest of their people. The Nightborne and the Blood Elves are the heirs of the Highborne and their physical evolutions. The Highborne that constitute the Night Elf Mages are physically identical to other Night Elves but they hid away in ruins for thousands of years. At best all I can think of regarding Highborne customisation is more sophisticated jewelry.
    The vehemeance is not logical, those reasons are not compelling enough, there has to be an underlying motive like greed, or jealousy, or covetousness - tha'ts the real heart of the isisue. Then it become a matter of understanding why such emotions are evoked over this and why so powerful, and what would change it.

    I for one feel the extreme faction partisan has heightened this immensely, the issue of being playable on teh other faction wouldn't be any where near as passionatewith you if the facitions wren't so seaprated.

    Just like the developers can change the racial composition, direction and meaning of each facition, so to they can change or vary how partisan they wnna make it.

  6. #15026
    Scarab Lord Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As for the high elven exiles being relevant to the Alliance faction, not only is that claim spurious, it falls apart under even modest interrogation. They didn't 'explode', they added a few more in Dalaran. And the only time they were relevant to the Alliance was when Dalaran joined the Alliance. And the only time you really see them now is if Dalaran is involved. They are more Dalaran relevant than Alliance relevant.
    7th Legion High Elves show this as false. A High Elf in one of the Alliance's island expedition teams shows it as false as well.

    No Dalaran involvement there at all since Khadgar (as essentially the leader of Dalaran) took Dalaran out of being involved with the war in BFA.

    You can attempt to minimize the representation all you want but when taken in the context of all other lore surrounding it (Silver Covenant, Three Sisters Comic, Alleria being back, more High elf Sorcerers now in Stormwind, the Purge of Dalaran, etc) High Elves on the Alliance have far more to show for it than any potential unplayable racial group within the Horde or Alliance (aka Ogres don't have much to show, San'layn don't have much to show, neither do Jinyu/Hozen, Alteraci Humans, Freebooter Kul Tiran).

    There's a reason this request comes up frequently and that's because Blizzard themselves keep the presence of High Elves among the Alliance. As you, who are main Horde player, would not understand this because your biases are toward the Horde faction. You cannot see why on the Alliance side this had been a popular request (and in general the most popular playable race request, since before this thread was even created, among the playerbase as a whole) because Horde has nothing like it on their side. If you flipped the switch for like say Ogres on Horde and gave them the same treatment then you would say many of your Horde fellows make the same comments (we see Ogres all the time among the Horde why can't they be playable!?), and I would love to see if put forward the same effort to stymie those efforts.

    And why it's been popular before me or most other posters (like the OP) here even came to support the idea. It'll probably stay the most popular request until Blizzard decides to allow it in some form on Alliance side.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The vehemeance is not logical, those reasons are not compelling enough, there has to be an underlying motive like greed, or jealousy, or covetousness - tha'ts the real heart of the isisue. Then it become a matter of understanding why such emotions are evoked over this and why so powerful, and what would change it.

    I for one feel the extreme faction partisan has heightened this immensely, the issue of being playable on teh other faction wouldn't be any where near as passionatewith you if the facitions wren't so seaprated.

    Just like the developers can change the racial composition, direction and meaning of each facition, so to they can change or vary how partisan they wnna make it.
    It's also illogical given Obelisk's thoughts on BFA. He appears to comment here in this thread as if the developers' ideas are so logical, comprehensible, and infallible then gives a review of BFA

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    ...Why did BFA fail? One word. CONFUSION. The developers, for all the praise we throw their way, have failed us on this occasion and they failed us because they didn't know what to offer us. Every single issue with BFA can be traced back to their inability to make a good decision.

    The confused story was, ultimately, garbage. I saw comments from the developers saying that it was all planned out, that we needed to see it all unfold, that we needed to give them a chance. Even Chris Metzen, in the aftermath of the burning of Teldrassil, asked us to give them a chance. I gave them that damn chance. And what did we receive?

    Nonsense. We got pure, unadulterated nonsense. It's not that the building blocks weren't there to tell a good cohesive story, it's that the developers were incapable of telling such a story (although props to the people who actually wrote the story beats, the dialogue was of a substantially higher standard than previously). The struggle against N'zoth and the Old Gods was a good foundation for an expansion. The faction war would also have been a good foundation for an expansion. Telling both, and jamming in Mechagon for the sake of it, left them overly reliant on simplistic characters whose purpose was to drive the plot rather than the plot being driven by their characters. And it was overly reliant on shocking, controversial set pieces whose impact should have been gargantuan and yet was diminished by the trying to have too many things happen at once....
    And there's more to that post. What it shows is that Obelisk's comments aren't that the developers can make no mistake, but he has extreme prejudice against the Alliance getting High Elves for some unknown reason and tries to make it seem as if they cannot be making "bad decisions" when it comes to this topic.

    Which, as far as the community reception was, their response backfired in their faces with multiple media outlets and heavy personalities like even The Red Shirt Guy (lore heavy figure) let it be known Blizzard's answer on the matter was hypocritical, full stop.

    Yet Obelisk will continue to use the hypocrisy to his advantage, because as I said he roots for his side. It makes trying to have a discussion with such a person useless. Yet trying to pass off as the developers are 100% correct in this manner when they are not 100% correct on other matters is frankly really foolish.
    Last edited by Geisl; 2020-03-12 at 05:07 PM.

  7. #15027
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Faction diversity was explicitly cited as the reason for high elves not being made playable as an Alliance race nearly TWO years ago.
    And then we got void elves and nightborne. Makes one think that what Blizzard says and what Blizzard does are not exactly in sync with one-another.

    I fail to see how you are not getting the point. The lore that is behind the new Death Knights does not change anything we know previously and changes nothing in the status quo.
    I'm bolding the first part because those are my exact feelings toward you. The lore behind the blood elves would not change at all if high elves were made into a playable race for the Alliance.

    High Elves are already playable as a Horde race, confirmed by multiple sources across a decade and a half of time from Chris Metzen to Ion Hazzikostas and their in game absence on the Alliance has been explained as them being almost all dead.
    And yet we have the gnomes... who were also "almost dead" when Gnomeregan got irradiated. We also have the void elves, who are little more than a "research group" that suffered huge losses in the war.

    That's a lazy response
    No, that's an actual response that makes explicit one huge fact that those who are against the implementation of high elves as a playable race do their best to ignore and avoid: what Blizzard says is not immutable gospel, and that they have changed their minds in the past.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  8. #15028
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That lore wasn't 'created' by the developers. The lore that reflects the new Death Knights has been present for years. The Lich King can raise Death knights. We currently have a non-antagonistic Lich King who wished to raise a new generation of death knights. Nothing has to be retconned, or rewritten, or reimagined to support this outcome. It was all there, ready-made and completely in harmony with the game world as it is actually is.
    You described by yourself why High elves make sense as an Allied race.

    'It was all there, ready-made and completely in harmony with the game world as it is actually is.' Is the phrase that highlights it more than anything else, and that directly counters the sentiment that High elves should not be playable.

    Double standards everywhere.

    As we saw with Void Elves, the developers are capable of inventing new lore in order to support new additions to the game, but as I recall the fact that Void Elves seemingly came out of nowhere is deployed as one of the biggest complaints about them. It is hypocritical in the extreme to say 'Blizzard could come up with brand new lore' to add high elves to the game for the Alliance whilst at the same time bitterly complaining about Blizzard inventing new lore to add high elves (and remember, Void Elves are a different flavour of high elf) to the Alliance because the new lore happened to render them blue. Now THAT is truly a juvenile attitude.
    Except High elves can be added with or without new lore, pal. Doesn't matter.

    As for the high elven exiles being relevant to the Alliance faction, not only is that claim spurious, it falls apart under even modest interrogation. They didn't 'explode', they added a few more in Dalaran. And the only time they were relevant to the Alliance was when Dalaran joined the Alliance. And the only time you really see them now is if Dalaran is involved. They are more Dalaran relevant than Alliance relevant.
    Can the same be said about other groups that mostly appeared under certain story themes? Yes.

    Is it so relevant and important as to decide what gets added and what doesn't? Nope.

    It's just another double standard.

    How much were the Nightborne seen when Suramar wasn't involved? A lot less, and? Exactly, nothing, they are playable now.

    High elves are Alliance regardless Dalaran is on the spotlight or not, everything else are just excuses.
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  9. #15029
    Scarab Lord Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    In contrast the earliest negative response to the high elf community is from September 2005 when Caydiem explained why playable Alliance High Elves weren't a thing and every time Blizzard has commented on the topic in the nearly sixteen years since (four times longer than the vanilla server request being in the public consciousness) they have double down again and again and again on their desire not to duplicate a Horde race to the Alliance.
    And when fans of Wildhammer Dwarves have been asking for it just as long, they've been continually denied as well until Shadowlands. Showing the length of time for a request doesn't matter. Or do you believe you should tell your teammates to stop requesting Ogres and Hozen and Mogu because it's been longer than 4 years and the game doesn't have them yet? Such dumb logic at this point. That it eventually gets added in is all that matters.

    And since we know that core races are all getting increased customization come Shadowlands. The next logical step would be to increase customization among Allied Races thereafter for fans of those races. I would bet then Void Elves getting High Elf like customizations (if High Elves are not added stand-alone before then).
    Last edited by Geisl; 2020-03-12 at 05:18 PM.

  10. #15030
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    And why it's been popular before me or most other posters (like the OP) here even came to support the idea. It'll probably stay the most popular request until Blizzard decides to allow it in some form on Alliance side.
    They did. They turned some Blood Elves, who are high elves, into Void Elves who are another flavour of high elf, another form of high elf. That was mission accomplished. Holding out for perfection and torturing yourself because of that ensures those who wanted high elves are denying themselves what they asked for because it wasn't exactly what they wanted. That is a bratty reaction, there were good reasons Void Elves were altered before being added to the Alliance and the entire pro High Elf movement has shown a remarkable lack of understanding when it comes to seeing things from the other side of the argument by refusing to accept the validity of the red lines that meant Void Elves needed to be different to justify their inclusion. Void Elves are the compromise. Void Elves are also almost certainly 'it'.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    It's also illogical given Obelisk's thoughts on BFA. He appears to comment here in this thread as if the developers' ideas are so logical, comprehensible, and infallible then gives a review of BFA

    And there's more to that post. What it shows is that Obelisk's comments aren't that the developers can make no mistake, but he has extreme prejudice against the Alliance getting High Elves for some unknown reason and tries to make it seem as if they cannot be making "bad decisions" when it comes to this topic.

    Which, as far as the community reception was, their response backfired in their faces with multiple media outlets and heavy personalities like even The Red Shirt Guy (lore heavy figure) let it be known Blizzard's answer on the matter was hypocritical, full stop.

    Yet Obelisk will continue to use the hypocrisy to his advantage, because as I said he roots for his side. It makes trying to have a discussion with such a person useless. Yet trying to pass off as the developers are 100% correct in this manner when they are not 100% correct on other matters is frankly really foolish.
    It is possible for the developers to be right on one thing and profoundly wrong on others. I can also praise BFA's dialogue, it's fantastic dungeons, gorgeous art and brilliant raids so to argue that I am hypocritically singling out this issue alone to give the developers unstinting support is disingenuous, they did some things good and they did many more things bad. I stand by assessment of BFA's shortcomings which mean it is going to be remembered at best as a mediocre expansion, just as I standby their excellent decisions to preserve faction diversity by ensuring the Horde and the Alliance remain distinct entities...a stance they have maintained since long before they even conceived BFA.

    Maintaining distinct factions is not an ideal, cost free proposition. There are downsides, most evidently in the coalescing of the mythic raiding community around one faction in order to ensure a sufficient pool of players. But there are upsides as well, in fostering a sense of teamwork and a unity of purpose by defining a common enemy. The two faction system has worked to Warcraft's benefits over the decades. So long as the two faction system endures, ensuring those two factions are kept distinct and that their distinction is respected is an admirable design philosophy that should not be upended for the sake of a tiny community of people who are unwilling to accept anything other than perfection, as the introduction of a compromise giving them 95% of what a thalassian elf is that they have rejected demonstrates.

    Frankly, there needs to be a better critique than I excoriated them on some decisions and support them on others so I'm a hypocrite because that is just a downright silly attitude.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    And when fans of Wildhammer Dwarves have been asking for it just as long, they've been continually denied as well until Shadowlands. Showing the length of time for a request doesn't matter. Or do you believe you should tell your teammates to stop requesting Ogres and Hozen and Mogu because it's been longer than 4 years and the game doesn't have them yet? Such dumb logic at this point. That it eventually gets added in is all that matters.

    And since we know that core races are all getting increased customization come Shadowlands. The next logical step would be to increase customization among Allied Races thereafter for fans of those races. I would bet then Void Elves getting High Elf like customizations (if High Elves are not added stand-alone before then).
    None of the other options have been explicitly ruled out as high elves were. We also have no idea how they will implement extra customization options. You keep putting forth the idea that a Bronzebeard Dwarf with Wildhammer tattoos is going to be a a Wildhammer Dwarf rather than a Bronzebeard Dwarf with wildhammer tattoos. It depends upon how they implement it, if it is just an option added with no further explanation then it's probably a Bronzebeard Dwarf with wildhammer tattoos and frankly I would be surprised if they added any lore explanations to any of the extra customizations we are getting given the sheer volume heading our way.

    A Void Elf with high elf like tones is still going to be a Void Elf though. The thing about allied races, and we've been over this before, is that we know where they come from and how they got here. Players who roleplay are entitled to do with their characters as they please, but they can't expect everyone else to indulge. Were I to /who a void elf with high elf skin tones, it would still list them as a Void Elf.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-13 at 10:13 AM.

  11. #15031
    Dreadlord elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Were I to /who a void elf with high elf skin tones, it would still list them as a Void Elf.
    Same for Blood elves who aren't listed as High elves, but as the Blood elves they are and will ever be.

    You always contradict yourself.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  12. #15032
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And then we got void elves and nightborne. Makes one think that what Blizzard says and what Blizzard does are not exactly in sync with one-another.
    Not really, you cling to those two races existing as some sort of winning argument and have done for years now despite it being dismantled again and again and again. Blizzard doesn't want to grant the exact same races to the other faction, they said nothing about variants. Nightborne and Void Elves are variants and not identical to Blood Elves and Night Elves. High Elves are identical to Blood Elves and those are disallowed.

    So Identical=not allowed and Variant=allowed, though they probably aren't keen on it. Frankly the only reason they probably invented Void Elves was to give the pro High Elf people something. And unhappy forum minority excepted, Void Elves being the most popular allied race shows they made a good call.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm bolding the first part because those are my exact feelings toward you. The lore behind the blood elves would not change at all if high elves were made into a playable race for the Alliance.
    Except it's not about lore, it's about identity. Blood Elves are high elves, high elves are part of the Horde faction, if you want to play a traditional high elf you should have the decency to play Horde. And the lore for high elven exiles would have to change because Blizzard has been insistent that they are almost all dead as a justification for not adding them. Remember, there is a difference between a reason and a justification. The reason high elves weren't added is because Blood Elves are a Horde race and adding the same race to the Alliance undermines faction diversity.
    A justification is an explanation in lore, they are almost dead. If they weren't almost all dead, arguing they shouldn't be a part of the Alliance would be a much harder argument to make.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet we have the gnomes... who were also "almost dead" when Gnomeregan got irradiated. We also have the void elves, who are little more than a "research group" that suffered huge losses in the war.
    I thankyou for falling into the trap of using Gnomes as a comparison. It allows me to go back to that very first no from September 2005 where someone made the exact same point regarding Gnomes being playable and high elves not being playable.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are still some High Elves in the land, but the majority of those once known as the Quel'dorei no longer fit the bill of "High Elf".

    Your comparison with Gnomeregan is a logical conclusion to draw, but incorrect. The Gnomes managed to evacuate a good percentage of their people from their home as it was corrupted from within. Ironforge was close by; they were able to save a good number of their people. Naturally they were indebted to the Dwarves and, by extension, the Alliance, so they fight for their cause.

    The High Elves had less of a chance to flee, as they were surrounded by the vast bulk of the Scourge army as they pressed in and destroyed the Sunwell. Still, some survived, certainly enough to show a presence, right?

    And so they did after the destruction of Quel'thalas, fighting for the Alliance, but with the destruction of the Sunwell they found an ever-increasing need, an addiction, for magical power. The remaining Elves were placed under the command of a man named Garithos, who was grossly intolerant of other races and drove the Elves into near-suicidal situations in the hopes they would no longer be his problem.

    These remnants of the High Elves -- named Blood Elves in remembrance of their people -- were not stupid, and the commands from their "Alliance" became more and more ludicrous. It was only through the help of the Naga that they were able to survive these grim tasks; time and again, they appeared to aid Prince Kael'thas and his men. The Blood Elves came to realize they could no longer trust in the Alliance. When the offer was extended to join the Naga in service of Illidan Stormrage -- and perhaps find a cure to their addiction to magic -- Kael took it, leaving the Alliance behind.

    In short, High Elves are not playable because there are very few true "High Elves" left -- far less so than Gnomes. While there are Blood Elves in much larger supply, they are busy with other pursuits alongside Illidan. You'd certainly not see them fighting side by side with the Alliance anytime soon, not after such betrayal.
    So the Gnome counterpoint was debunked nearly fifteen years ago. I don't feel I need to rebut it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, that's an actual response that makes explicit one huge fact that those who are against the implementation of high elves as a playable race do their best to ignore and avoid: what Blizzard says is not immutable gospel, and that they have changed their minds in the past.
    I'm afraid it is a lazy response, predicated on the notion that Blizzard is fated to give in on everything with enough time. Each item they changed their minds on has unique circumstances and rationales behind those changes in direction and rather than trying to understand each one in it's own way you've simply compiled a list and declared it evidence they can change their minds. Which, as I repeatedly stated, is something that does need to be proved. We know they can do that. All the evidence amassed across the fifteen years since the Caydiem post though, including the fact it's been fifteen years, strongly indicates why they aren't for turning. Each statement builds upon those that came previously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Same for Blood elves who aren't listed as High elves, but as the Blood elves they are and will ever be.

    You always contradict yourself.
    Lorewise high elves were renamed Blood Elves and Blood Elves are in no other way different from who they were twenty years ago. You'll find that the citizens of Upper Volta or Zaire or didn't magically become different people once the names of their countries were changed to Burkino Faso and Congo. A name change doesn't change who they are and you place much too much emphasis on an adjective.

    Void Elves in contrast got blasted by void energy, turned blue and grew tentacles. They've a bit more going on behind their change.

  13. #15033
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except that, according to the lore, it's highly unlikely the high elves would ever join the Horde, considering their recent past. Not to mention that's like saying the nightborne should be on the Alliance.


    But you're fine with the Horde having the Alliance's most popular race? I.e. the night elves? Doesn't that stink of hypocrisy to you?
    As far as I know there are no night elves in the horde, not even random npcs. I'm not sure what you're talking about. If by chance you are refering to nightborne then that is a subrace of nightelves which have evolved in over 10 000 years of isolation and exposure to the nightwell. I don't think anyone sees them as Night Elves. As a Night Elf fan myself, I don't see them as Night Elves, their skeletal structure and culture are completely different. That would be like someone saying that Alliance already have high/blood elves - look at void elves.

    High Elves vs Blood Elves are way too similar to exist on both factions, physically difference is literally the color of their eyes. There hasn't been any other unique features which have evolved to make them different - no amount of blue tatoos is going to change that. If Blood Elves had developed some sort of horns or whatever from fel magic exposure then fine, but they did not - the opposite in fact happened - the sunwell got restored and their magic additiction got sated, pretty much to like how it was before the third war. They are now Blood Elves in name only.

    If Blizzard wanted High Elves for alliance, they should've added them at the same time as Blood Elves for the horde - either as seperate faction choices or something similar to Pandaren journey. Now its too late, Blood Elves have become staple race of the horde.
    Last edited by Sinraye; 2020-03-13 at 12:38 PM.

  14. #15034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They did. They turned some Blood Elves, who are high elves, into Void Elves who are another flavour of high elf, another form of high elf. That was mission accomplished. Holding out for perfection and torturing yourself because of that ensures those who wanted high elves are denying themselves what they asked for because it wasn't exactly what they wanted.
    Nobody is "torturing themselves" over not being able to play High Elves. The hyperbole needs to end. Most are either playing other games or playing WoW or going on about their lives. Heck this thread isn't as active as it once was because there's not a lot to talk about regarding High Elves atm. How is that not indication that people aren't torturing themselves and simply going about their days until they get something they'd like in the game? Seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That is a bratty reaction, there were good reasons Void Elves were altered before being added to the Alliance and the entire pro High Elf movement has shown a remarkable lack of understanding when it comes to seeing things from the other side of the argument by refusing to accept the validity of the red lines that meant Void Elves needed to be different to justify their inclusion. Void Elves are the compromise. Void Elves are also almost certainly 'it'.
    Calling it a bratty reaction does nothing but minimize that there's lots of players in the community who have legitimate criticisms with how Void Elves were handled and the hypocritical response given about High Elves during a time when Nightborne were also given.

    This is the reason I bring up your BFA review, what I am showcasing is you commenting as if they are utterly logical and infallible regarding their statements on High Elves, yet you only comment this way because it fits with your heavy bias. You are not arguing it from a position where even many in the community who are neutral have also stated the Blizzard responses were illogical and hypocritical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is possible for the developers to be right on one thing and profoundly wrong on others.

    Frankly, there needs to be a better critique than I excoriated them on some decisions and support them on others so I'm a hypocrite because that is just a downright silly attitude.
    It is possible sure. But again that is not how your comments come off on the matter, you tend to argue that the developers words and their ideas are infallible, you do not come off as "regarding these matters I find their stance suitable." Nope, you argue "these developers know 100% what they're doing and understand the pillars of their game and are doing all they can to make sure those pillars do not crumble! WORD OF GOD" and yada yada.

    Then comes your BFA review trashing that they had no idea what they were doing. So is it inconceivable that just because you may not find 'wrong', that others do? Leaving High Elf topic for a moment, it's not even a secret that the way Void Elves themselves were implemented is considered the worst way to implement any new playable option. People, who don't even care about the High Elf topic, still comment on how Void Elves were introduced in one of the worst ways possible with such defunct lore (what lore? they'd say) that trying to minimize the criticisms aimed at them and act as if developers can do no wrong is hurtful to future implementations of race options.

    You come off as someone who often doesn't share their opinions because you want to be part of the status quo, because you often never want to be wrong. So you wait in silence until your position is the status quo and then become outspoken on those matters. This reduces the chances you'll have people challenging your opinions. Just like how I've stated in the past you were so completely wrong about not getting Nightborne before they were revealed to be an Allied Race.

    But it's okay though if you're like this. As I said, no one has to be beholden to your opinions. Nobody has to "get Obelisk Kai's blessing" and Blizzard isn't waiting on what you have to say to make their decision regarding their matters.

    On top of their own internal decision making, they take from the playerbase their collective feedback (such as the recent changes to account wide essences next week). And it's not hard to see that collective feedback shows this:

    1) High Elves for Alliance still maintains the most popular race request
    2) Void Elves were introduced in a hamfisted way that has yet to be paid off
    3) Even Void Elf fans want to secure High Elf skins

    It's simply a matter of time before Alliance gets its form of High Elves playable among its faction's playerbase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    None of the other options have been explicitly ruled out as high elves were.
    Because none of the other options had their question frequently asked within a QA. Do you believe, looking back now that BFA finished, their answer for Mogu/Ogre/Hozen/San'layn would be categorically different?

    They would give the same intended "No plans right now but anything's possible in the future". How would they be able to give any other answer? It's clear they already knew what Allied Races they were going to include for BFA, and that was the context of the question itself "why Void Elves instead of High Elves for Allied Race." Even Ion's answer, which you often like to remove this portion of his reponse, included "in an faction based expansion".

    Does this mean Ogres are not Horde faction material? No, it would be preposterous for one to think so, but they were not added during BFA so they must not be considered such going by your logic. That's silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    We also have no idea how they will implement extra customization options. You keep putting forth the idea that a Bronzebeard Dwarf with Wildhammer tattoos is going to be a a Wildhammer Dwarf rather than a Bronzebeard Dwarf with wildhammer tattoos. It depends upon how they implement it, if it is just an option added with no further explanation then it's probably a Bronzebeard Dwarf with wildhammer tattoos and frankly I would be surprised if they added any lore explanations to any of the extra customizations we are getting given the sheer volume heading our way.
    I don't get your point here. I believe we've discussed this matter before and the feedback/evidence that majority of playerbase given regarding WH Dwarves as increased customization favors my side.

    That is to say, it doesn't matter if Wildhammer Dwarves are "Bronzebeard with dwarven tattoos" because the concept that is a Wildhammer Dwarf meets all expectations: It's a Hill Dwarf with tattoos that's available on the Alliance side. People are ecstatic, because it nails everything: Faction, race, and classes.

    That I've argued they won't have WH Dwarf racials is minor, as people care more that they can look and play as the character they want to be on their chosen side.

    If WH Dwarves were given to Horde for some innane reason you'd have many in the Horde laughing and cheering at their new dwarven option while many in the Alliance upset one of their iconic races has gone to Horde side. It would be a shitshow of equal or greater proportions to when Void Elves first came out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    A Void Elf with high elf like tones is still going to be a Void Elf though. The thing about allied races, and we've been over this before, is that we know where they come from and how they got here. Players who roleplay are entitled to do with their characters as they please, but they can't expect everyone else to indulge. Were I to /who a void elf with high elf skin tones, it would still list them as a Void Elf.
    Read above: it doesn't matter to the general playerbase. Why do you think so many cheered at the Troll options shown during the Blizzcon reveal of increased customizations? The playerbase doesn't give a shit that "tan sand trolls aren't darkspear" they're happy to "play the different troll tribes", especially if we get forest troll coloration among them. You will see most forest troll fans heralding, "I can finally play a forest troll!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinraye View Post
    I don't see them as Night Elves
    They are Night Elves. Their island team literally carries "The Highborne" moniker which is what the upper class of Night Elf society called themselves. Highborne is a Night Elven societal term. All Nightborne all Highborne, thus all Nightborne are Night Elves.

  15. #15035
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Lorewise high elves were renamed Blood Elves and Blood Elves are in no other way different from who they were twenty years ago. You'll find that the citizens of Upper Volta or Zaire or didn't magically become different people once the names of their countries were changed to Burkino Faso and Congo. A name change doesn't change who they are and you place much too much emphasis on an adjective.

    Void Elves in contrast got blasted by void energy, turned blue and grew tentacles. They've a bit more going on behind their change.
    Because all that happened to Blood elves was a name change, obviously.

    Let's not talk about the annihilation of 90% of their population, the change in regime (Thing that High elves avoided by no longer being Quel'thalas citizens.), the lack of the substance that maintained them stable and the uses of smaller and dosified amounts of that substance (Through methods that High elves didn't shared.), and even the use of other substances as replacement (Like Fel, Valeera shows Blood elves consumed some amount of fel in some way and/or quantity, thing that High elves didn't do.), the change on their fountain of power that they, as rulers of Quel'thalas utterly own, and all that it implied (Never returning to the ways of the Church of the Light, for example, having abandoned it even before that.), the drastic difference in allies, like, you know, the Horde instead of the Alliance, the abandonment of traditionalism in the use of certain magics and beliefs, not abandoning the place where they have had their nation since seven thousand years ago, etc, etc, etc...

    Just a damn name change, obviously.

    Not any of the two groups is the same they were before the Scourge invasion, and as of today, the two of them are different.
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  16. #15036
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Because all that happened to Blood elves was a name change, obviously.

    Let's not talk about the annihilation of 90% of their population, the change in regime (Thing that High elves avoided by no longer being Quel'thalas citizens.), the lack of the substance that maintained them stable and the uses of smaller and dosified amounts of that substance (Through methods that High elves didn't shared.), and even the use of other substances as replacement (Like Fel, Valeera shows Blood elves consumed some amount of fel in some way and/or quantity, thing that High elves didn't do.), the change on their fountain of power that they, as rulers of Quel'thalas utterly own, and all that it implied (Never returning to the ways of the Church of the Light, for example, having abandoned it even before that.), the drastic difference in allies, like, you know, the Horde instead of the Alliance, the abandonment of traditionalism in the use of certain magics and beliefs, not abandoning the place where they have had their nation since seven thousand years ago, etc, etc, etc...

    Just a damn name change, obviously.

    Not any of the two groups is the same they were before the Scourge invasion, and as of today, the two of them are different.

    Okay, but they're not biologically different. By your logic we should have ARs for every single group made up of the same damn race.

    Let's have defias humans, stromgarde humans, exiled lorderon humans, uncorrupted gilneans.

    Come on its silly. This is why shadowlands are making wildhammers and others as such as customization options. Because despite culture differences they're the same fucking bilogical race.
    Unlike dark iron or maghar who have very clear differences.

    This is why playable kt humans are strictly the fat ones only. Because normal humans are already playable via stormwind.

    Essentially high elves would be the equivalent of giving horde normal humans and calling them defias humans or giving the alliance all the humans i listed and marketing them as new ARs.

    Its a joke.
    Last edited by Varx; 2020-03-13 at 02:57 PM.

  17. #15037
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Any high elves who hypothetically are resurrected in Shadowlands will almost assuredly join their blood elf kin. Why? Because it is the blood elves ho fought alongside their fallen kin, it is the blood elves who honored their fallen. The high elves of the alliance on the other hand went running to that human potential. So I highly doubt any hypothetically resurrected high elves would choose alliance aligned high elves over blood elves.
    Well... the HE do have a big hatred for the Trolls, and even more now that the Horde have the Zandalari in their ranks, it could be a reason for them to be completely against the idea and see the BE as "those who lost their way".

    In general, i think that if they join the Alliance or Horde depends on how well they explain such events.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    They are Night Elves. Their island team literally carries "The Highborne" moniker which is what the upper class of Night Elf society called themselves. Highborne is a Night Elven societal term. All Nightborne all Highborne, thus all Nightborne are Night Elves.
    I don't think this is a really fair way to put it, i mean... they do come from the same society, so its normal that they share somethings, like how they still have temples of Elune, in the end, Shalassian is an offshot language from Darnassian, so its normal that they still share some terms.

  18. #15038
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Okay, but they're not biologically different. By your logic we should have ARs for every single group made up of the same damn race.
    Excuse me my fine dude, that's you own logic, stop projecting your own logic on me, I have told you many times.

    Let's have defias humans, stromgarde humans, exiled lorderon humans, uncorrupted gilneans.
    Why? I can only see the Stromgarde humans as Horde AR but the rest? What kind of strawman is this?

    Come on its silly. This is why shadowlands are making wildhammers and others as such as customization options. Because despite culture differences they're the same fucking bilogical race.
    'Wildhammer' players will miss out on racials, voicelines, adequate class selection, proper Wildhammer mount, proper Wildhammer heritage armor, etc...

    But yeah, keep playing devil's advocate just to support a pity posture.

    Unlike dark iron or maghar who have very clear differences.
    Skin tone.

    This is why playable kt humans are strictly the fat ones only. Because normal humans are already playable via stormwind.
    It's just a model, NPC humans will have any model the designers feel at the moment regardless from where they are.

    Essentially high elves would be the equivalent of giving horde normal humans and calling them defias humans or giving the alliance all the humans i listed and marketing them as new ARs.

    Its a joke.
    And?

    Literally, and?

    High elves have been Alliance all this time, it would be simply a fix on currently unavailable player choice, the same way Dark Iron Dwarves weren't available but officially part of the Alliance through Bronzebeard Dwarves.

    What is a joke is to still pretend that all this is just an asking for a copy of a Horde race, willingly ignoring all the context and logic.
    Default dancing over the Obelisk of the Kairos's ruins.

  19. #15039
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    BTW i still think that the best way to add HE (if they ever do), is to give them a new model, the humans and... well... most main character have proven, that you can have a different model regardless if you're of the same race.

    I mean, we have already seen HE with different models with Nozdormu "mortal" form

  20. #15040
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Monkey's paw:

    Alliance gets High Elves which are Blood elves with blue eyes
    Horde gets an entirely new race with expansive customization
    Ogres or naga, please.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

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