1. #15161
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    He did not emphasize that, he even said debates were had. Also he would never say "yeah we just gave options cuz fuck it" because literally who would say that. What he emphasized is what I bolded in the post.

    It's more about options over trying to tell some specific narrative. For being such a wordy individual yourself, you should understand that exactly as the point I was saying: Lore isn't a factor, the goal is increasing the variety of options.

    Also I've already stated that's not how my interpretation is, but keep strawmanning and looking ignorant as usual putting words into other people's mouths.
    That is the logical outcome of your interpretation, that there are no barriers to what can be placed onto available races. This is the basis for your high elf skins on Void Elf request after all. Dark Iron Dwarf skins and Mag'har Orc skins are conspicuously absent from the customisation options being given to Dwarves and Orcs respectively.
    You attempt to draw a distinction between why those skins aren't available and the Void Elves because the aesthetic you desire on the Void Elves happens to be on the other faction, whereas the Dark Iron Dwarf and Mag'har Orc skins are on the same faction as their parent races. Which is of course a terrible distinction, given the entire reason Void Elves exist as they do was to differentiate them from Blood Elves. It's akin to saying the forty metre tall and forty metre thick wall in front of you is actually a motorway to your destination.

    And it is worth pointing out that none of the options presented to Moorgard violated canon. That none did is not the point. What matters is that he was specifically asked. Whilst they are clearly prepared to facilitate a great degree of player latitude in how they headcanon their character, some things ARE beyond the pale. Such as pretending your ordinary Orc is Mag'har or that your Dwarf is Dark Iron. If lore wasn't a consideration, he wouldn't have been asked. Nothing that has been added so far violates lore. And nothing was offered that could have violated lore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    If someone wants to go ahead and be an asshole to someone after the Lead Narrative Designer has literally said "you define your character and don't let anyone else, or even the game, tell you otherwise" then they're free to do so and be an asshole. It doesn't make them any less ignorant of "Word of God" statements.

    That statement Danuser made is already having such an impact that people here on MMO-C and Twitter and official forums are already using it as justifications for their characters. It's a way for people to give the proverbial finger to those who get anal about "BuT yOuR rAcIaLs N jOkEs!" Which is what it was meant to do.
    What he says was correct. Where you fall down is that you expect everyone else to take that decision seriously. He is not saying they support your choices. He is saying they don't care, you do you. BUT he is also saying in that in relation to the changes he approved, which form the context of the question. The Wildhammer Dwarf skins, the Forest Troll skins etc.

    For the most part, these changes are inoffensive. Who would object to a Dwarf declaring they are wildhammer or a Troll declaring they are descended from or related to the Sandfury? Nobody. These examples don't violate the overall lore.

    But some things do violate lore and would not be accepted. Which of course brings us to the specific case vexing you, your desire to be a Void Elf who can pretend to be a high elf. That is not something that can be accepted because a Void Elf is, by nature, a transformed high elf. It would be akin to a lightforged draenei arguing they aren't lightforged, or a Nightborne arguing they are in fact a pure Night Elf.

    Now, if players are insistent on roleplaying that, then what Danuser said is correct. It's entirely up to you how you rationalise away everything about your avatar that will continually remind you that your chosen fantasy is actually inconsistent with what you've selected in a way that Dwarf and Trolls fans won't have to engage with. But any Void Elf player who attempts to argue that they aren't a high elf will be stretching things too far to be taken seriously beyond themselves and those who chose to humour them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    As we have seen with Wildhammer and Sand/Dark Troll skins etc the skins are enough, loads of players were and are immediately excited they get to finally play the characters they've envisioned in their head. Danuser's response supports that. "hopefully giving players a way to realize their characters in their head and they weren't able to get it on the screen."
    And that is where that reality exists, in the player's head. Where the game agrees, that fantasy can now be expressed within the game. But if you choose a story for your character at odds with what your avatar is well, that's up to the individual to suffer through it.

    And let's be honest, it's your particular idea that is driving this particular debate. They made Void Elves different for a reason. And just because some Void Elf players still hanker for the ability to look like a Blood Elf you somehow expect the rationale that led to the creation of the Void Elves in the first place to be ignored.

    Even were they to facilitate your request exactly with something that isn't a monkey-paw and provide you with an option that left you indistinguishable from a blood elf, you would still be playing a Void Elf. What is the next step then? New racials that aren't Void themed? New emotes that don't remind you that you are a Void Elf? No reverb on the emotes because that is a by-product of the void? The 'need' for a Void Elf Paladin despite the fact that such a race-class combination is a contradiction?



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    So how is it when a fan asks about Alliance High Elves it's just merely a pacifying statement, but when a fan asks about dark skin on Blood Elves that isn't considered the same?

    I believe this is enough. Your frank bias has been illuminated for a long time, so I'm going to let you get the last word however you wish because it has been obvious for a while now all you hope is that they never add Alliance High Elves as a playable option and that means your "debating" is actually useless because even when "Word of God" statements occur that go against your bias you then do what you claim your opposition to be doing: twisting it around in a way that sees your pov as the correct one.

    I'll leave you with some facts that you and others seem to be ignoring.

    1) The Blue Eyes coming to Blood Elves are not the same as what the High Elves have, further differentiation has thus been made while giving more unique options.

    2) People are still going to ask for High Elves because they're looking to play a group on the Alliance, not the Horde.

    3) Danuser has stated Azeroth is meant to be a welcoming world with all these options players can use to express themselves, it gives further backing to players to request what they're wanting to play as in-game.

    4) Increased customizations have been given because otherwise it wouldn't be feasible to give them at all if each and every option had to have their own starting experience, thus the most feasible way we'll likely see High Elves on Alliance as a playable option is through Void Elf increased customizations.

    5) >99% of Void Elf fans want to look like Alleria/request High Elf skins, we're now moving toward character customization allowing one to look like their leaders thus giving more heft to the request.

    6) Ion and Afrasiabi have noted it is possible to get High Elves/High Elf skins on Void Elves to give Alliance players that "High Elf fantasy".
    Frank bias? Only one of us has engaged in a serial disconnect with reality over the years. Need I remind you that your reaction to the Void Elf announcement in 2017 was to argue, without a hint of doubt, that the reason Ion said 'Blood Elves are High Elves' next to Jesse Cox was because they didn't want to rain on the Void Elves big reveal day and that high elves would clearly come later. You kept that particular line going for months as I recall because the simpler truth was too much to handle.

    Historically you have done everything possible to avoid the truth. They considered high elves as an allied race. They determined high elves and Blood Elves were identical. They created Void Elves as a compromise to give the Alliance a thalassian elf model without giving them a duplicate of a core horde race. And they consider giving them a duplicate of a core horde race a devaluation of the factions they went out of their way to assert the importance of at the last Blizzcon.

    Increased customisations are not a license to junk everything that went before. They are not a blank page. This is not a year zero. It is possible to offer advanced customisations to existing races without junking the rationale that led to the creation of Void Elves. It is possible to expand Void Elf customisations without turning them into ersatz high elves. As for your points.

    1.) Beta isn't finished yet, but how blue eyes are depicted is currently wildly inconsistent and it would be beneficial if things were standardised. If not, that the blue eyes on some exiles in older content isn't up to the same level as the blue eyes Blood Elves are potentially getting is irrelevant. What are you going to argue, that high elves are different from blood elves because blood elf blue eyes are a slightly different shade than the eye colour used by some exiles? You aren't scraping the barrel there, you have scraped through the barrel, through the foundation of the building the barrel was in, down through layers of soil and are approaching bedrock. If Blood Elves get blue eyes, then that's it for the eye colour argument. It's gone.

    2/5.) The same point and as Blizzard has shown they aren't willing to cross some lines just because the player base wants them to. If they were ever going to give the Alliance High Elves, it was going to be as an Allied race and it was going to be instead of Void Elves. Void Elves are as big a barrier to the exiles being an allied race as Blood Elves are after all. And if 99% of Void Elf players (absolute hyperbole) want that badly to look like a high elf, the Horde is waiting for them as Ion said.

    3.) Danuser said you do you, not you do you and if people point out you aren't what you say you are in game please open a ticket to report them.
    He also said none of the options presented to him violated canon, so you doing you with these options isn't an issue because it is perfectly consistent with the game world. Nobody is arguing over what Danuser said, we are arguing over our interpretations, because you seemingly believe what he said means there are no limits whereas the fact he was asked to judge whether certain selections could violate canon implies there are certain options they won't give for being beyond the pale.

    4.) No, the most feasible way as an Allied race before Void Elves existed. High Elf like skins on a Void Elf won't be a high elf, it will be a Void Elf. The racials for Trolls are Dwarves are agnostic, they are race wide. Void Elf racials establish you as a Void Elf, no matter how you look.

    6.) Ion said high elves were possible as a sub-race when asked in 2013...and then he sat down and thought about. Afrasiabi said it was merely possible, then segued into a commentary on the dumpster fire of a debate it is on the general forums. Possible is not a promise. Possible is not even probable. Possible is possible. And what you end up getting may not be what you wanted.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-04-12 at 10:16 AM.

  2. #15162
    Quote Originally Posted by The Silver Covenant View Post
    Horde players get to live one of the Alliance's classic fantasies: playing an elf from Quel'thalas.

    World of Warcraft is incomplete until Alliance players can experience the game from the perspective of an Elven Ranger, Priest, or Sorceress.
    I thought Void Elves were from Quel'thalas

  3. #15163
    https://youtu.be/u7jAJjcKoQY

    For the blood elves, there are already 25 personalizations that are already dataminated on the 40 announced.

    - 12 colors for the eyes (several shades of green and gold, with a glassy white eye on the right or on the left)

    - 3 hair colors

    - 4 skin colors

    - 6 body jewelry for women

    They only have 15 customizations left to share between men and women (hairstyles, head jewelry, scar?, Make up? and facial hair?)
    I think the rest will be put in hairstyles and jewelry because they really need it.

    Overall we can say that Blizzard respects the identity of the factions.

  4. #15164
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    https://youtu.be/u7jAJjcKoQY

    For the blood elves, there are already 25 personalizations that are already dataminated on the 40 announced.

    - 12 colors for the eyes (several shades of green and gold, with a glassy white eye on the right or on the left)

    - 3 hair colors

    - 4 skin colors

    - 6 body jewelry for women

    They only have 15 customizations left to share between men and women (hairstyles, head jewelry, scar?, Make up? and facial hair?)
    I think the rest will be put in hairstyles and jewelry because they really need it.

    Overall we can say that Blizzard respects the identity of the factions.
    For one, when Ely Cannon made the statement about "40 additional customization options," he said over 40. Beyond that, you're overreaching on the idea that that initial estimate would be the final number in the first place, especially if we're talking about slightly different tints for eye colors. That's not to say that it's confirmed that blood elves are getting the options you want to be reserved for the Alliance, but none of the evidence that you're using to back this up is confirmed on its own, let alone altogether.

  5. #15165
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    For one, when Ely Cannon made the statement about "40 additional customization options," he said over 40. Beyond that, you're overreaching on the idea that that initial estimate would be the final number in the first place, especially if we're talking about slightly different tints for eye colors. That's not to say that it's confirmed that blood elves are getting the options you want to be reserved for the Alliance, but none of the evidence that you're using to back this up is confirmed on its own, let alone altogether.
    It's not proof, it's just what's being examined for the blood elves for now.

    And I do not think that the blood elves will have in the end 20, 30, 40 ... colors for the eyes lol.
    Do not abuse it either.

  6. #15166
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Realistically some would. Just like realistically some people of the races in the opposite faction would side with the other. There's realistically some orcs/humans that are fine with each other and etc.

    It's just gameplay restrictions that are holding those 'realities' from existing. Just like in the real world. Because this is a game.
    I'm still clinging on hope for the proud Kingdom of Alterac to rise up and return to the Horde
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  7. #15167
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I'm still clinging on hope for the proud Kingdom of Alterac to rise up and return to the Horde
    Sylvanas's hate boner for living humans has all but assured their decimation and absorbtion into the forsaken.

  8. #15168
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Sylvanas's hate boner for living humans has all but assured their decimation and absorbtion into the forsaken.
    Well she's gone now; and the Horde had human allies in BFA anyway with the approval of Nathanos
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  9. #15169
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Most Void Elf players aren't interested in those. Void tatoos sure - and considering what Blood Elves seems to get, ie, jewelry, it's possible that Blizzard would do so, to look more like Alleria - some more beards and hairstyles, of course. But tentacle beards are already a Draenei thing, sorry.
    Yeah, no point in adding customization no one wants. They would be better served thinking up some goth, punk or emo hairstyles, tats and jewelry than adding more tentacles.

  10. #15170
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think that the possibility of a Thalassian reunification -under whatever name tbh- is possible in theory, but after the Fourth War it just seems more unlikely to be soon than ever; Only as of Legion Vereesa's resentment cooled down enough to think BE's can be redeemed -and return to the Alliance- and truly I don't see how there wouldn't be some regression after the Blood War. Like It's even hard to not see the BE's themselves making parallels between the Fall of Quel'thalas and The Burning of Teldrassil, but alliance and neutral High Elves would certainly not have the in-group bias to not see them.

    It's just hard to believe that now, of all times, High Elves would decide to return in masse to QT. It just wouldn't ring true when it would had made sense for them to do so at any other time -honestly end of Legion would have been the perfect time-

    As Vereesa puts it, the only issue for reunification for her is the BE's politics, and I really doubt the Blood War has made any reticent HE's now decide to go back to Quel'thalas.
    The bigger question for me lies iin why we don't se things liket his happen in game at all, swing over to the night elf side, the Nightborne and the re-unification or healing of the Kaldorei and their various branches, especially the demon hunters, after theeffot against the lgion and the truth finally revealed, the curing of arcane addiction, etc.


    why would I see night elves and nightbonre fighting when the latter were initialy quite clarly presented as very much loving the former or the more interesting plot of some sort of collaboration which is far more appealing when they're on opposite factions.


    All these kind of storylines including Thalassian re-unification etc, are all being stifled because of the faction divide, and the uwllingness of writers to be creative or the senior staff who monitor the situation to give it a chance.

    One wonders that witho so many people desiring a peace and corpproation why some meaningful choice and system doesn't exist in game to facitilate a measure of that even if being on the opposite faction, like a high elf group in islvermoon, that's both horde and alliance friendly, that blood elves who want to get on with the alliance can choose to join and instead pursue healing the wounds and mending the divides, while at the same time you have a larger majority blood el pop that is still very angry with humans and prefer conflict..facilitating a system that both those who loike conflict and those who want peace can have.

    And having similar in every race. The Draenei have the Shattered offensive, that work with Blood elves, allowing draenei alliance players who want to work with the horde to have an avenue.

    EVery race has an avenue in the lore in game that makes the player choice legitimate

    Night elves - have highborne an Illidair who wanna work with the Nightboren (vice versa too)

    Draenei - have shattered offensive
    Blood elves - have high elves
    Void elves - have their love for blood elves providing
    Forsaken - have Calia and vice vera
    Tauren - have druids of the Cenarion circle
    Gnomes - have mechagnomes who were fine with working with goblins
    Goblins - Steamwheedle cartel working on both factions


    no need for every race to have a reason to love every other race in the opposite faction, just each race have 1 race/group in the opposite faction that opens it up and allows players to pursue a legit peace rout that th e in game lore actually reflects and facitliates.. it doesn't make it any less Warcraft.. And this is eacceptable, it doesn't make it peacecraft, it's really only a race likeing only one race in the opposite faction.

    on eof the side benefits of this is playable high elves on alliance is less important now that your horde blood elf can play as one on the horde that is instead working towards peace and unification. That is a setting that allows you to even correctly role play your blood elf as a high elf.

    They would ofc have to decide what system allowances a peace pursuit brings.

    Example


    • Do you allow access to opposite faction cities on that path? or just the one of the race you're friend with?
    • Do you allow inter grouping and guilding? Or do you create a new type of organisation that allows players of similar pursuit to group together in a community without affecting the pre-existing system divided across the factions, allowing htem to have their hoode guild but this new cross faction organisaiton too (most player have two communtieis anyway
    • Do you suspend allowance s while War mode is on, or do you provide an alternative directive - e.g. as a blood elf you have to kill horde players now because they are actively trying to break out war, or you kill alliance players because they're working against peace - do you give players the option to kill either faction? or do you make war mode for peace pursuits active against players of both factions who are not on the path of peace, but friendly to those who are. OR: the best option, in war mode, you can only kill opposite faction players who are not pursuing peace, so an al liance player who has joined the peace pursuing faction in his race would not be an enemy to you, only those who haven't.

    This way the agency is in the hands of the player. Now these aren't difficult questions, they're just choices to make. And look, a way that facilitates a measure of cross faction for those who are peace minded that doesn't conflict with the current 2 faction separation nor diminish the war effort or the majority who want war.

  11. #15171
    Did anyone notice that they are adding nightbourne skin tones to night elves now?

  12. #15172
    Last edited by Frenchvince; 2020-04-12 at 04:09 PM.

  13. #15173



    Welcome maybe, but its still seems like a bone thrown your way, whiles the majority of the featrues are on blood elves. Not to mention, it is alarming they're all in shadowlands, which coudl mean they're all dead, which may mean a killing off of the High elves.

    • IF they had done something like have outlined in reply #14681 above here, this issue wouldn't even exist in my opinion.
    • If they were less biased they would have provided better options, I think high elves would have happened instead of void elves because why give the horde purple night elves, yet somehow if youw ant to play blonde haird white skinned Thalassians the horde is there for you.. I mean srsly? Its play if night elves are played on the horde, but won't even modify the blood elf model to make the alliance ones be high elves?
    • Finally if the night elves were done properly, especially the highborne -shown really attractive night elves, and in cool places like Suramar or Zin'Azshari in addition to forest homes and zones like val'shaarah and Ashenvale, then a lot of alliance players would have been happy with their elves.

    But they had to make the blood elf better in every way, better magical forests, better magical civilization , better model, and when they did the nighte elves own, they couldn't in all their bias allow it to be on the alliance, no, it ALL went over to the horde.

    This iss why you have this problem now. There are so many ways out of it, but none are taken, why.. cos they like it as it is, and for all yorur moaning on this topic, they aren't changing it because .. as said, bias.. they still feel the horde needs to have everything better for you to paly it despite the alliance having a constnatly dwindling population to the point that the imbalance is affecting the game.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-04-12 at 04:14 PM.

  14. #15174
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    An expansion dealing with dead people is exactly where I would expect to find high elves in any numbers so I am unsure what this proves. We have no context as to what these are or what they mean. This is the definition of 'jumping the gun'.

  15. #15175
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    3) Danuser has stated Azeroth is meant to be a welcoming world with all these options players can use to express themselves, it gives further backing to players to request what they're wanting to play as in-game.
    this one's pretty on the nose with the new skin colors and other real life diversity pandering across blizzard IPs.

  16. #15176
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    An expansion dealing with dead people is exactly where I would expect to find high elves in any numbers so I am unsure what this proves. We have no context as to what these are or what they mean. This is the definition of 'jumping the gun'.
    Except they are all alive, they come from the silver tournament, Blizzard often brings NPCs from one extension to another instead of creating new ones, and in addition the high elves are in the process of update.

    If you remember Alleria and Vereesa were on a mission to track down Sylvannas during the 4th war.

    This is why I told the story continues.

    Another NPC : https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/npc=...enant-guardian
    Last edited by Frenchvince; 2020-04-12 at 05:15 PM.

  17. #15177
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    Except they are all alive, they come from the silver tournament, Blizzard often brings NPCs from one extension to another instead of creating new ones, and in addition the high elves are in the process of update.

    If you remember Alleria and Vereesa were on a mission to track down Sylvannas during the 4th war.

    This is why I told the story continues.

    Another NPC : https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/npc=...enant-guardian
    if they were from the silver tournament, from the wtlk expansion, could very well mean they are already dead, died in that battle, thus we are finding then now.

    Alleria went to shadowlands seeking Sylvanas and she found lots of then dead is more likely

    But sure, it definitely means something else bigger

  18. #15178
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    Except they are all alive, they come from the silver tournament, Blizzard often brings NPCs from one extension to another instead of creating new ones, and in addition the high elves are in the process of update.

    If you remember Alleria and Vereesa were on a mission to track down Sylvannas during the 4th war.

    This is why I told the story continues.

    Another NPC : https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/npc=...enant-guardian
    Again, we have no idea what this means if anything.

    However, let us surmise.

    Would living Silver Covenant NPCs be in the Shadowlands? No. Dead ones, yes, but living ones? No.

    Would living Silver Covenant NPCs be present in the pre-patch event that sees us enter the Shadowlands? Possibly.

    Does the Shadowlands pre-patch event see us imprisoned in the Maw for a period before we escape? Absolutely.

    If we are stuck in the Maw for a period, does that imply that what happens in the pre-patch is a defeat for us? Yes.

    Are these NPCs of sufficient emotional weight that their imprisonment in the Maw will provide a sufficient emotional hook for us to spend our days working towards freeing them when compared to a character such as, say, Malfurion? Going to say no.

    Could they be cannon fodder in the initial loss? People we see die early on only to see their souls marched into purgatory minutes later?Absolutely.

    So again, we know nothing and you can read into this anything you want. Hold your horses in other words.

  19. #15179
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Again, we have no idea what this means if anything.

    However, let us surmise.

    Would living Silver Covenant NPCs be in the Shadowlands? No. Dead ones, yes, but living ones? No.

    Would living Silver Covenant NPCs be present in the pre-patch event that sees us enter the Shadowlands? Possibly.

    Does the Shadowlands pre-patch event see us imprisoned in the Maw for a period before we escape? Absolutely.

    If we are stuck in the Maw for a period, does that imply that what happens in the pre-patch is a defeat for us? Yes.

    Are these NPCs of sufficient emotional weight that their imprisonment in the Maw will provide a sufficient emotional hook for us to spend our days working towards freeing them when compared to a character such as, say, Malfurion? Going to say no.

    Could they be cannon fodder in the initial loss? Absolutely.

    So again, we know nothing and you can read into this anything you want. Hold your horses in other words.
    Why would they do that with HIGH ELVES when there is all the playable races to make uses of, exactly ? Wether alive or dead, that seems rather strange.

  20. #15180
    Why do you want them to be dead lol.

    We go to the Shadowlands completely alive like all the other players and NPCs who accompany us (Tyrande for example).

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