1. #15221
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    You aren't actually adressing any problem, just saying that we are all hostile for no real reason whatsoever over the topic. There's a reason why the discussion can't exist in a normal, healthy way, since the existence of it is more than enough for those in favor to try to be heard again and again over time, while the other side's intention is to derail and destroy all topics on all forums to cause the other side to not have a public voice, that's why this discussion has gotten so disgusting and toxic.


    What makes you think this topic is the only thing that, for example I, talk about?

    I can't be bothered with the sickness of the west all day, but sadly, it's everywhere, everyday.
    Honestly, I am kind of sorry for that earlier post. I was somewhat in a bad mood and obsessive-compulsive tendencies can be a bitch, so I've basically been super-neurotic and stressed over the last few days. I'm honestly just more confused as to why this is such an area of aggression for the fanbase and why this gets so toxic so often.

    The thing is I don't think this should have sides in either way that are so intent to see or not see this happen. The addition of High Elves would please some people, but I can also very easily understand hoping they conserve their resources for other Allied Races and the like over adding something that we kind of have portrayed as is.

    Admittedly, it's very funny to me how those who are so heavily anti-High Elf would spend their time on this, but I also find it just as strange that you guys are so highly intent on seeing this added, too. I think we all just need to seriously calm down a lot of the hectic and obsessive behavior of a very simple and ultimately pointless thing.

    I can see there are actually a lot of very interesting ideas for how High Elves could be implemented without becoming redundant here, so it is kind of a fun idea. They're not really my cup of tea, but the aesthetics proposed are very interesting and I could see how High Elves could contribute to the lore in the days to come.

    On the other hand, it's just kind of stupid that people are so zealous about this. It's not even a real race, but one that's purely theoretical. I don't see why anyone would be this obsessive about seeing it added nor seeing it not added.

    I'm going to maintain that the anti-High Elf side is definitely far more toxic, overall, however. It seems like this thread was initially a fun little design and development thread that was taken far too seriously.

  2. #15222
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Given that High Elf customization is asked for unanimously even amongst Void Elf fans and given the precedent with variance coming with increased customizations (aka Trolls no longer have to stay blue, dwarves no longer have to stay fair-skinned/charcoal, undead no longer have to be pale, etc) I don't really see how a form of High Elf customization doesn't come to Void Elves other than if Blizzard absolutely does not allow increased customizations on Allied Races.

    Which I highly doubt since they were already asked about it multiple times after the reveal of increased customizations ("Will these increased customizations come to Allied Races?") and they've said for the moment it's just going to be the core races.

    And btw, just because a race was intentionally made with a certain aesthetic does not mean it can't be changed. Orcs have had bent backs for incredibly long time despite players continually asking for them to have straight backs. The common argument back then used to be "the silhouette is part of the race, if you wanna play straight backs then go play humans".

    Look at how dead in the dirt that is now, as it was always presumed to be by many in the playerbase - not just those who eagerly wanted straight-back orcs customization.
    I don't think allied races are getting added customization in shadowlands, I think that was mentioned in one of the panals that this was an expansion of core races customization. I'll try to dig up the link tmoz when I get up. But I'm pretty sure I recall them saying words to the effect. As I was bummed my zandalari wasn't getting anymore bling.

    youtube.com/watch?v=fMpe_i5SdBo&t=5m55s

    Found it at 5:55 in the vid.

    The dk allied races though "might" get some dk specific customization but that is based on interpretation of the 8.3 allied race dk advert.
    Last edited by Monster Hunter; 2020-03-31 at 01:01 AM.

  3. #15223
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You should give yourself a break. Nobody forces you to come back and parrot same exact thing you've already said 100+ pages ago.

    But you probably can't help yourself.

    Just like everyone else both pro and against helves in this thread. This is a comedy show. Cant wait to see what other excuses are made to try and justify helves in the alliance one belves get blue eyes during SL.

    At that point might as well demand helves to be the alliance equal to tushui pandas and give the horde a new paladin race to compensate. Only way it'll work.

  4. #15224
    Scarab Lord Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    I don't think allied races are getting added customization in shadowlands, I think that was mentioned in one of the panals that this was an expansion of core races customization. I'll try to dig up the link tmoz when I get up. But I'm pretty sure I recall them saying words to the effect. As I was bummed my zandalari wasn't getting anymore bling.
    Oh they definitely are not getting added customization in Shadowlands. I never meant to appear as if I was arguing that. I just argue that it's pretty much a forgone conclusion it will happen, as every playable race is someone's favorite and WoW team aren't gonna treat the Allied Races as "second class citizens" by not giving them a pass of increased customizations down the line.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Just like everyone else both pro and against helves in this thread. This is a comedy show. Cant wait to see what other excuses are made to try and justify helves in the alliance one belves get blue eyes during SL.
    It would actually be more helpful for this to happen (belves getting blue eyes). Because then when High Elf fans continue asking then the ignorant comment of "you just want to play a blue eyed blood elf" has no leg to stand on anymore. As if High Elf fans actually wanted to do that then flocks in droves would go play Blood Elves and the request for High Elves to be playable on Alliance should cease.

    But I doubt it will be the case.

    Kind of like how Void Elves, who are blue eyed blood elves, did not stop the request. Kind of like people still kept asking for Wildhammer, until they're now coming through increased customizations feature.

  5. #15225
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Just like everyone else both pro and against helves in this thread. This is a comedy show. Cant wait to see what other excuses are made to try and justify helves in the alliance one belves get blue eyes during SL.

    At that point might as well demand helves to be the alliance equal to tushui pandas and give the horde a new paladin race to compensate. Only way it'll work.
    Simple. High Elves have been Alliance longer than Blood Elves Horde, since Vanilla in fact. Alliance players interact more with them than with Gnomes. They are also the only allied race which makes sense Alliance-wise, instead of the usual ass-pulls of Blizzard (Draeneï, Worgen, Void Elves, Lightforged, Kul Tirans and Trash Gnomes are all, to an extent ranging from "absolute bullshitting" to "relatively harmful" on the asspull charter).

    And wether Hordies who hate the idea of the Alliance finally getting a race they care about beyond jus tthe Dark Irons care to admit it or not, Blizzard needs to buy back the trust of a lot of players, especially on the Alliance side, and High Elves are a cheap and easy way to do so.

  6. #15226
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Another question: if the Highborne and High Elves see themselves as higher than the rest, why don't they bother teaming up to restore Eldre'thalas as a start?
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  7. #15227
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Comments like these are exactly why that video is a win. As they succinctly describe what it is the High Elf fans want. And that's good because as a higher authority in the community (and yes they do have higher authority than you or me or any rando player, accept that reality) it's something the WoW designers can take further stock of on the topic.

    That you continue to ignorantly put words into other's mouth is what's not a win. There's already an available option to play a Blood Elf in the game, if what you're saying is what really is the case then "High Elf fans wanting to play High Elves" wouldn't even be a thing. It wouldn't be a "long-known requested option" as put in the T&E video. We have Blood Elves for how many years now? How can something stay as a long-requested if purportedly "people just wanna play Blood Elves"?

    People would simply play Blood Elves and that'd be it. Just like people want player housing still despite Ion stating Garrisons "are our version of player housing". Continuing to stay ignorant about it and say "no you don't actually want what you're saying, you actually want this instead" just makes you look foolish instead.
    The video is in a win in the sense that a drowning man, treading water, finds a holed plastic bag to hold onto. It doesn't do any good beyond the fleeting moment of hope it provides by it's mere existence before even the most cursory examination of the facts reveals it has little to no impact on the situation at hand.

    What the video did do was describe 'high elf customisation' as giving Blood Elves a blue eye option. That's an implicit admission that that is what 'high elves' ultimately are seen as by the pro High Elf community, Blood Elves with blue eyes,. I wouldn't even describe it as high elf customisation myself, because Blood Elves are High Elves and to say giving them blue eyes is giving them high elf customisation then that is akin to saying giving brown eyes to humans will be giving a human customisation option to humans. An eye colour does not make a race. That it means far more to the pro High Elf community than to Blood Elf players is obvious. For Blood Elf players, it will be a nice little extra option for us, perhaps options 6, 7 and 8 under the seventh category of customisation choices for Blood Elves. For pro High Elfers, it is a thin blue line that seemingly must be defended to preserve the one physical difference they can sell between the exiles and the Blood Elves. But as I said earlier, an eye colour does not make a race.

    Blood Elves are High Elves. And the exiles are the same race as Blood Elves, their politics are irrelevant to their racial status, so what you do want to play is a Blood Elf.
    The option you want is already in the game, just not on the faction you want them to be on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    This doesn't even make sense to me and doesn't sound like what I was arguing at all. Nice strawman.
    It is what you are arguing. You are arguing that because of the faction wall, Void Elves should get special consideration and receive customisations to make them look like unchanged high elves. Blood Elves ARE unchanged high elves, so these customisations are to make them look like an already available option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Yes, and I don't see how this doesn't make sense. It would be like if one of the customization options added in the future puts a Goblin onto the Alliance with customization options not available with Horde Goblins.

    Now a Goblin player cannot simply play Horde Goblins to have access to all their looks, they must upend their guilds/groups etc if they wanted to access options for Goblins exclusive to Alliance side.

    How does that not make sense? Why wouldn't the Horde player request access to similar options so they can stay on the faction they have pride in if faction has such importance?

    Orc, Tauren, Troll, Draenei, Dwarf, Gnome players all do not have to leave their faction to get access to all race customizations for their given faction. There is no need at all for Green Orcs to get Mag'har customization because both options are available already to Horde. There is no need for Dark Iron options on Dwarves because both options are available already for Alliance.

    The Elves are an exception. And it should be obvious by now that Night Elf players have been wishing for more Highborne customizations (customizations that basically the Nightborne have). Why are they asking for it? Because those customization options are not available to Night Elves on Alliance side.

    Are you still having trouble understanding this? You seem to be struggling with it. This is why your "do you expect Mag'har to get Green Orc customization" does not make sense. It is already there, on the same side. Is that how it is for Void Elves/Blood Elves?

    Blood Elf players are wanting beard options available to Void Elf players since those were revealed, are you going around adamantly telling them to go play a Void Elf to have beards on Blood Elves? Should Blood Elf players not ask for more beard options for males because that's already a thing on Void Elves? That's how stupid your argument sounds because that would be the logical conclusion for it.

    I think it's hilarious how you try to put great importance on "factions matter" then at the same time try to minimize it "oh just go play on the other side".
    Factions do matter, saying I am minimising their importance by saying 'just go play the other side' seems to be a wilful misreading of what that means. It means if you want those options so badly, go play the faction they are available on.

    This entire point is convoluted and nonsensical. You are again attempting to argue that the faction barrier that led to the creation of the Void Elves in the first place, so that they could give the Alliance a long asked for thalassian elf variant (without infringing on the aesthetic and thematic identity of the Blood Elves as the high elves of the franchise OR infringing upon the integrity of the Horde by giving the Alliance access to a core Horde race) is going to facilitate high elf like customisations on the Alliance Void Elves.

    It is incorrect to argue that the factors that precluded the addition of the exiles as an Allied race are actually what is going to be a reason in favour of high elf like customisations on Void Elves. Once again, it seems you have an esoteric interpretation of what was said and you are clinging to it fiercely despite the gaping holes in your logic. It is worth reminding you of your form on this topic, where you alone insisted for months after Ion's initial November 2017 Jessie Cox interview that the reason he didn't announce high elves was because he didn't want to overshadow Void Elves on their big reveal day when the far more obvious explanation (which turned out to be true), that Void Elves were the intended replacement for the exiles, was simply rejected out of hand.




    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You must be nonsensical then because you've repeatedly stated that you agree it's possible for Void Elves to get "high elf like" options. How does Darkspear Trolls getting skins of different troll tribes not support that? A jungle troll would be very different from a sand troll, just as Kul'Tirans were made "seafaring specialty humans" and thus have racials tied to it. Only here with increased customizations Blizzard are just throwing out racials mattering since sand trolls will be an increased customization over being an Allied Race (despite the potential to be one in the same vein as a Kul'Tiran/HMT/LFD).
    High Elf like and High Elf exact are two entirely different things, as you may learn in the fullness of time. Human range skin tones mottled, cracked and deformed by void energies would be high elf like in my book.

    Darkspear Trolls are not biologically different from other Trolls, with the exception of the Zandalari who are already an Allied race. The skin tones currently unique to the other Troll tribes are still within the 'troll skin range', just as Humans getting african and asian tones within the human skin tone range does not mean a huge disruption of lore for them. Humans and Trolls aren't getting zapped by magic, trapped under dome for millenia or forged in the power of the light for these tones. These are just normal options for their species. Just as the Human tone range is expanding, so is the Troll tone range via playable Darkspear Trolls. And all that needs to be said to explain why a Darkspear looks like a Sand Troll is that their Dad or their Mum was a Sand Troll and they take after them. No extra lore is required beyond that.

    On the other hand we know exactly where the Allied races came from. Nightborne trapped for millenia in their city. Lightforged Draenei who have pledged themselves fully to the light and been transformed by it. Void Elves zapped by torrents of void energies. The skin tone ranges for Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves are not natural Draenei or thalassian skin tone ranges, they are by-products of the transformation. They are also deliberate, designed to ensure a measure of thematic and aesthetic distance between them and their parent races.

    So basically, asking why Trolls are getting all these new skin tones is beside the point. It's as lore breaking for Trolls to get these new tones as it for Humans to get these new tones. They are all natural, within the skin tone ranges for these races we have observed. Void Elves, Lightforged Draenei...even ordinary Orcs in fact, are trapped in specific skin tone ranges as a result of their respective stories.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    This entire segment disregards that character customization isn't a need, but a want. One could argue we don't need increased customizations on existing races (what you are arguing essentially) and that focus should go to adding new races currently not available. Increased customizations throw out the "we don't need" bit. It's what people want. It's what people have wanted for a long time, and now they're finally getting it.

    High Elves are another thing people have wanted for a long time, still remains to be seen if they get.
    People got High Elves in 2007 with Blood Elves, a race of thalassian elves controlling Quel'thalas, a restored Sunwell, who have a connection to the light and offer Paladin, Hunter and Mage options (representing the big three strands of elven culture). What some people want is to duplicate that race to the Alliance because they don't like the company the Blood Elves keep. Had the story been written in such a way that the Blood Elves had rejoined the Alliance in TBC, I doubt you would be here arguing over thirteen years later that High Elves still needed to be added.

    Those who wanted thalassian elves on the Alliance received Void Elves as the compromise option. To argue it still remains to be seen if they will get what they want conjures an image of a child on the day after Christmas, sitting with his Megatron with purple cannon toy in front of the fireplace, waiting to see if Santa will come back and give him Timmy down the road's Megatron toy with a red cannon because THAT is the one he wanted. That child got something almost exactly what he wanted, and he couldn't have exactly what he wanted because what he wanted was in use by someone else.

    The refusal to accept that the factions matter, that faction diversity matter and that some diversity must be maintained in the name of that faction divide is why the pro high elf side is perennially unhappy, incapable of receiving a 95% compromise option and insisting on complete perfection in order to be appeased. Void Elves were given to the Alliance because a desire was articulated by some Alliance players. They were created the way they were to respect the diversity of the factions and the identity of the Blood Elves. Most people have accepted the compromise, as Void Elven popularity shows.

    Nothing it seems is ever good enough. Blood Elves are High Elves, identical in every way to the traditional high elf fantasy with the exception that they are on the Horde which, by the pro High Elf reckoning, means they can't be the true high elves, legitimacy is conferred not by the race themselves but by their fealty to the correct faction.
    And when they get a thalassian elf variant, the very variations used that allow them to exist in the first place are also deemed so offensive that thry desire to neuter them by adding 'high elf customisation' to Void Elves. They would tear out what makes Void Elves unique, and their skin tones are emblematic of their theme, just to get ersatz high elves. Two thalassian elven races they would happily damage in their quest because neither is absolutely, one hundred percent what they want. Just as a Void Elf with those tones wouldn't be a hundred percent what they want, their constantly triggering racials and emotes would shatter any attempt at a suspension of disbelief to the point where IF the pro high elf community got the look down pat, the next step would be a cry for 'unique racials' and 'voice options'.




    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    He states "it would be the simplest thing for Blizzard to do" which is true and is what everyone accepts: putting Blue eyes on Blood Elves then going around to herald 'see high elves now'. It would be no different than if Blizzard decided to put brown skins on green orcs and say 'there now you have mag'har' or put spotty green skins with an upright option onto darkspear and say 'there's your zandalari'. I'm highly confident the fans of Mag'har or Zandalari would be upset if that was a case for them as well.


    It in no way means "the casual playerbase accepts these as mag'har and zandalari". It just means Blizzard took the laziest route they could and did not care for what those fans wanted.

    Same as we're seeing them give us 100% right now for kicks, do you think they're doing this just because "it helps to bring the game to a better state and not damage it"? No, it's because it provides an incentive to help with social isolation. Has nothing to do with being better or worse for the game.

    Just like if they do add blue eyes to Blood Elves and then say "this is your high elves that's it". Except they've stated High Elves are a possibility on Alliance so I don't believe it matters whether blue eyes come to Blood Elves. It only changes if as I said, they then proclaim "we decided this is how we're going to handle high elves."
    Actually had Blizzard implemented brown skins onto Mag'har years people would have accepted them. But they were implemented as an Allied race, as the Zandalari were. Allied races are defined by unique lore origins which resulted in customizations that are unique to them. Zandalari are biologically distinct from ordinary Trolls. Mag'har are uncorrupted Orcs.

    And Blood Elves ARE High Elves. As stated, blue eyes for them will just be a neat extra customization option if we get them, but it won't make Blood Elves high elves in the same way the addition of brown eyes won't suddenly start making humans, well, Human. They already are High Elves.

    And they have never stated high elves are a possibility on the Alliance. If you are referring to the two occasions Ion said 'Anything is possible', those were both after lengthy answers where he explained why they weren't happening. And as his answer to Preach on the topic of the return of master loot illustrated, 'Anything is possible in future' is Ion's go to phrase when what he really means is 'we have absolutely zero plans or intentions to alter what we've said or done on this'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Simple. High Elves have been Alliance longer than Blood Elves Horde, since Vanilla in fact. Alliance players interact more with them than with Gnomes. They are also the only allied race which makes sense Alliance-wise, instead of the usual ass-pulls of Blizzard (Draeneï, Worgen, Void Elves, Lightforged, Kul Tirans and Trash Gnomes are all, to an extent ranging from "absolute bullshitting" to "relatively harmful" on the asspull charter).

    And wether Hordies who hate the idea of the Alliance finally getting a race they care about beyond jus tthe Dark Irons care to admit it or not, Blizzard needs to buy back the trust of a lot of players, especially on the Alliance side, and High Elves are a cheap and easy way to do so.
    The High Elves left the Alliance after the Second War, pulled out by Anasterian at the first opportunity due to Quel'thalas isolationist tendencies. They were the first to leave. They were also the last to join, committing to the Alliance only when the Horde directly attacked them.

    A brief reattachment to the Alliance in the days following the collapse of Quel'thalas did not last as Kael'thas left the Alliance entirely following the Garithos incident. The few stragglers that are left in the Alliance are their of their own volition. To say the High Elves are Alliance would be like saying the Britsh are still a part of the European Union because some of their expatriates live in the EU.

    In contrast the Gnomes, a race you frequently denigrate throughout this post, has been Alliance since the Second War, has helped the Alliance on numerous occasions, and even allowed their own city to fall and most of their people to die so as not to distract the Alliance at a critical opportunity.

    Your assertion that Alliance players deal more with the exiles rather than the Gnomes seems like a case of selective bias. Gnomes, as a core Alliance race, are ominipresent throughout the game and are seen in multiple Alliance bases and scenarios. They are a far more iconic Alliance race than a race that bailed on the Alliance on two separate occasions and the vast majority of whom merrily spent the past year waging war on the Alliance.

    As for your criticisms of the 'usual ass-pulls' the Alliance got, all options listed seem suffer from the same sin. Namely, none of them were High Elves. Your diagnosed solution, adding High Elves, is therefore unsurprising. I do not think the value of the races the Alliance did get should be judged because they weren't the one option you clearly want above all others.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-31 at 12:50 PM.

  8. #15228
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And Blood Elves ARE High Elves. As stated, blue eyes for them will just be a neat extra customization option if we get them, but it won't make Blood Elves high elves in the same way the addition of brown eyes won't suddenly start making humans, well, Human. They already are High Elves.
    Why then did Blizzard not add blue eyes along with golden eyes?

  9. #15229
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    Why then did Blizzard not add blue eyes along with golden eyes?
    As any answer I give can only be speculative, the most likely one in my opinion was that they wished to offer golden eyes to emphasise the contrast between the light orientated Blood Elves and the void infused Void Elves. As you may have noticed, it was implemented by taking three existing faces and changing the eye colours to golden, rather than as an independent eye colour option.
    As they would have known enhanced customisations were coming in the expansion after BFA, a small gesture now to cement the Blood Elf/Void Elf dichotomy was fine but offering multiple eye colours using the same brute force method probably wasn't.
    Blue eyes for Blood Elves are still a likely outcome of enhanced customisation options and we may have confirmation of that in the near future once the alpha is datamined.

  10. #15230
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldefard Aelfwine View Post
    Why then did Blizzard not add blue eyes along with golden eyes?

    The identity of the factions, a thing which he does not stop defending but which only works in one direction.:rouler des yeux:

  11. #15231
    Dreadlord elbleuet's Avatar
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    Yea. When it comes to get blue-eyed blood elves (which will never happen, fortunately), oddly the identity of the factions only works in one direction hahahaha

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    because Blood Elves are High Elves and to say giving
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Blood Elves are High Elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Blood Elves ARE unchanged high elves
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Nothing it seems is ever good enough. Blood Elves are High Elves
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And Blood Elves ARE High Elves. As statedThey already are High Elves.
    In just one post. Looks like you're trying to convince yourself.

    For recall, Blood elves are corrupted, Horde Thalassian elves. And High elves are part of the Alliance since WII. And your "Blood elves are our high elves" argument was wrong since the beginning.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  12. #15232
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Yea. When it comes to get blue-eyed blood elves (which will never happen, fortunately), oddly the identity of the factions only works in one direction hahahah
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    The identity of the factions, a thing which he does not stop defending but which only works in one direction.:rouler des yeux:
    Saying never is a hostage to fortune and is a calculated risk. If you wish to give that hostage, be my guest. However, high elves do not comprise a core part of the Alliance. Therefore the request for blue eyes does not infringe on the identity of the Alliance. Were there a request for Night Elf like skintones on Nightborne, then that would be an unreasonable request as Night Elves are a core part of the Alliance.

    As such, what is being asked for is an eye colour for the playable race of uncorrupted high elves currently in game, the Blood Elves who feed on the arcane-holy sunwell. In the grand scheme of things a very small thing, but still something it would be nice to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    In just one post. Looks like you're trying to convince yourself.
    Which is an incorrect interpretation. Restatement of this fact in that particular response is warranted given the continually perpetuated fiction that Blood Elves and high elves are somehow different races, when the truth is the exiles are a political faction of the overall race.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    For recall, Blood elves are corrupted, Horde Thalassian elves.
    Blood Elves are not corrupted. As lore demonstrated, the green eye colour was the result of magical ambience from being in proximity to fel magic rather than the direct consumption of those energies. They have now been chowing down on light energy for far longer than they were ever exposed to fel energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    And High elves are part of the Alliance since WII.
    The High Elves left the Alliance. For reference, please check page 34 of Warcraft Chronicles Volume 3 under the heading 'the Alliance splinters'.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    And your "Blood elves are our high elves" argument was wrong since the beginning.
    Given Chris Metzen, creator of the franchise, said it in 2005 and Ion Hazzikostas, current game director, said it in 2017/2018, you are factually wrong. Common sense also shows you are wrong, as the sum total physical changes that Blood Elves underwent when Kael renamed them was zero. They were the same people they were the day before he renamed them as they were the day after.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-03-31 at 03:45 PM.

  13. #15233
    Dreadlord elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post

    Which is an incorrect interpretation. Restatement of this fact in that particular response is warranted given the continually perpetuated fiction that Blood Elves and high elves are somehow different races, when the truth is the exiles are a political faction of the overall race.
    I never said they were. High elves and blood elves are part of the same race, I think everyone agrees with it except you.

    Blood Elves are not corrupted. As lore demonstrated, the green eye colour was the result of magical ambience from being in proximity to fel magic rather than the direct consumption of those energies. They have now been chowing down on light energy for far longer than they were ever exposed to fel energy.
    Yea, so they're corrupted. Fel eyes don't come from nowhere. And sorry but in Warcraft, you don't have to absolutely drink some source of energies to be corrupted. This is far more vast than that so your argument is wrong.

    The High Elves left the Alliance. For reference, please check page 34 of Warcraft Chronicles Volume 3 under the heading 'the Alliance splinters'.
    The Thalassian government did indeed. Alleria (ironically the most famous ranger and heroin of Quel'Thalas), and Vereesa did not same for the Allerian elves, some elves of Dalaran, the elves from Theramore and Stormwind, those of Quel'Lithien and Quel'Danil lodges.

    Did you play WIII ? There were even high elves helping Arthas during the purge.

    Given Chris Metzen, creator of the franchise, said it in 2005 and Ion Hazzikostas, current game director, said it in 2017/2018, you are factually wrong. Common sense also shows you are wrong, as the sum total physical changes that Blood Elves underwent when Kael renamed them was zero. They were the same people they were the day before he renamed them as they were the day after.

    Chris Metzen, creator of the franchise thought Falstad was dead in Day of the Dragon.
    And Ion's words aren't words of god I'm sorry for you.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  14. #15234
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    The Thalassian government did indeed. Alleria (ironically the most famous ranger and heroin of Quel'Thalas), and Vereesa did not same for the Allerian elves, some elves of Dalaran, the elves from Theramore and Stormwind, those of Quel'Lithien and Quel'Danil lodges.

    Did you play WIII ? There were even high elves helping Arthas during the purge.
    The High Elves were volunteers commissioned under the Kirin Tor and the Silver Hand. Anasterian did send some more priests though when he heard Terenas died
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  15. #15235
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Saying never is a hostage to fortune and is a calculated risk. If you wish to give that hostage, be my guest. However, high elves do not comprise a core part of the Alliance. Therefore the request for blue eyes does not infringe on the identity of the Alliance. Were there a request for Night Elf like skintones on Nightborne, then that would be an unreasonable request as Night Elves are a core part of the Alliance.

    As such, what is being asked for is an eye colour for the playable race of uncorrupted high elves currently in game, the Blood Elves who feed on the arcane-holy sunwell. In the grand scheme of things a very small thing, but still something it would be nice to have.
    The problem is that there will no longer be lairs and / or be confused between the two factions if a playable horde race gets an option from an alliance NPC race.
    The faction identity also applies between playable races and NPCs.
    What you are proposing might only be possible if the High Elves and Blood Elves become BFF and are united in the same faction, but that is not the case.

  16. #15236
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The High Elves left the Alliance after the Second War, pulled out by Anasterian at the first opportunity due to Quel'thalas isolationist tendencies. They were the first to leave. They were also the last to join, committing to the Alliance only when the Horde directly attacked them.

    A brief reattachment to the Alliance in the days following the collapse of Quel'thalas did not last as Kael'thas left the Alliance entirely following the Garithos incident. The few stragglers that are left in the Alliance are their of their own volition. To say the High Elves are Alliance would be like saying the Britsh are still a part of the European Union because some of their expatriates live in the EU.

    In contrast the Gnomes, a race you frequently denigrate throughout this post, has been Alliance since the Second War, has helped the Alliance on numerous occasions, and even allowed their own city to fall and most of their people to die so as not to distract the Alliance at a critical opportunity.

    Your assertion that Alliance players deal more with the exiles rather than the Gnomes seems like a case of selective bias. Gnomes, as a core Alliance race, are ominipresent throughout the game and are seen in multiple Alliance bases and scenarios. They are a far more iconic Alliance race than a race that bailed on the Alliance on two separate occasions and the vast majority of whom merrily spent the past year waging war on the Alliance.

    As for your criticisms of the 'usual ass-pulls' the Alliance got, all options listed seem suffer from the same sin. Namely, none of them were High Elves. Your diagnosed solution, adding High Elves, is therefore unsurprising. I do not think the value of the races the Alliance did get should be judged because they weren't the one option you clearly want above all others.
    As always, you demonstrate a tenuous - at best - grasp on the Alliance lore. The High Elves remained in the Alliance even after the Second War.

    The Kingdom of Quel'thalas left, yes, but the High Elves, those who proved to be the sole deserving of that name, the ones who didn't reject it and didn't ally with the monsters which slaughtered their families (be it the orcs or the undeads) kept to this name. they are the only one whom matters when talking about the High Elves nowadays, because they are the last ones to call themselves that way. And those same elves were already part of the Alliance back in vanilla, remained as such during Burning Crusade, received an upgraded involvement in Wrath and have kept apeparing ever since, be it Cataclysm were some joined the forces of the Kaldorei in Stonetalon, played a huge role in two patches of MoP - and were instrumental in the one time in-game where the Alliance was allowed to bloody the nose of the Horde, the Purge of Dalaran.

    They have somewhat faded during WoD and Legion, and had to be sidelined pretty hard by Blizzard to try and push the Void Elves, who proved to be an utter failure in that they were clearly designed to be the death-knell of the high Elves demands, and have only intensified it, because they destroyed utterly any and all arguments made against playable High Elves.

    If you also think that the Gnomes, a race whom representatives almost always end undermining the Alliance war effort in every base they appear (like in the Tarides, in Blazedge Mountains, Uldum and many other places) and have largely been written as a pathetic joke race since Vanilla, unable to retake their city from one pathetic loser and having to wait until Battle of Dazar'alor to be of slight importance in the game... only to be upstagged in technological achievments by their allied race - which is the ugliest and least played of them all, as far as I know), you're deluded.

    I'd also like to signal that my main has been the same male Draeneï from day one of my WoW history, wayback in TBC. They are still my favorite race, their zones are my favorites. But they have been an utter asspull, and we know it. Same with Worgens, who ended being humans with hair problems anyway, like Kul Tirans are somehow big humans because reasons. The Lightforged exist to be Draeneï harder - and probably have ûber-Turalyon alive I suspect - and Void Elves... Well, I love them, I mean I made a thread for them. But pretending that they aren't an asspull, when nothing in the reputation which allows to unlock them is pretty telling that they were hastily chosen and designed. As for Trash Gnomes, the least said about them, the better.
    Last edited by Manariel; 2020-04-01 at 02:15 PM.

  17. #15237
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    I never said they were. High elves and blood elves are part of the same race, I think everyone agrees with it except you.
    If they are the same race, then a high elf option is present for players in warcraft and the desire for an exact duplicate of an existing Horde race on the Alliance is superfluous.



    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Yea, so they're corrupted. Fel eyes don't come from nowhere. And sorry but in Warcraft, you don't have to absolutely drink some source of energies to be corrupted. This is far more vast than that so your argument is wrong.
    A fel corrupted elf is known as a Felblood Elf. You can find them in select areas of Outland as well as in Sunwell plateau. Elven eyes reflect the ambience of the dominant magic they are exposed to. This is why they have golden eyes now, green eyes when fel energy was stored in vast crystals to sustain Silvermoon's spellwork (NOT directly imbibed) and blue when the Sunwell was a font of arcane energy. Note that the difference between the three periods is that they are imbibing the arcane and light energies of the sunwell to sate their addiction during the blue and golden periods, but during the green periods they fed off arcane energies stored in vermin.

    During the same period when the Sunwell was down, the exiles were consuming arcane energies at the same rate as the Blood Elves, just using rare artefacts to accomplish the same statement. If the thalassian elves are anything, it is arcane corrupted. All of them.



    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    The Thalassian government did indeed. Alleria (ironically the most famous ranger and heroin of Quel'Thalas), and Vereesa did not same for the Allerian elves, some elves of Dalaran, the elves from Theramore and Stormwind, those of Quel'Lithien and Quel'Danil lodges.

    Did you play WIII ? There were even high elves helping Arthas during the purge.
    The elves who remained after Quel'thalas left prioritised their allegiance to the Alliance, as the warcraft manual 3 stated. However, most of them are likely dead. Dead in battle, dead from being on the business end of a mana bomb, dead from messing with magic they knew nothing about it. Dead at the hands of a nascent Death Knight who turned on his own followers and raised them into undeath after he fell (Marwyn and Falric were two among many of Arthas's followers whom he slew to fill the ranks of his forces). All you list are either gone or few in number, scattered to the four corners of Azeroth, tallying with the established commentary that the exiles are few in number and assimilating into their host societies.




    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Chris Metzen, creator of the franchise thought Falstad was dead in Day of the Dragon.
    And Ion's words aren't words of god I'm sorry for you.
    Chris Metzen got mixed up on a minor point of lore involving two minor characters. Ion Hazzikostas is the current game director who also played a role in evaluating the exiles as an allied race candidate, rejected them and helped create Void Elves in their stead. If part of your argument relies upon your interpretation being right and the interpretation of the creator's being wrong, you aren't going to come out on top in the argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    The problem is that there will no longer be lairs and / or be confused between the two factions if a playable horde race gets an option from an alliance NPC race.
    The faction identity also applies between playable races and NPCs.
    What you are proposing might only be possible if the High Elves and Blood Elves become BFF and are united in the same faction, but that is not the case.
    The exiles are a rebel faction of a Horde. Nothing can be considered unique to the exiles as everything that they are stems entirely from being a traditional high elf, which is what a Blood Elf is. Therefore anything that the exiles have is also something open to the Blood Elves. This is not an infringement on the identity of the Alliance because the exiles are not a true part of the Alliance. They are not a playable Alliance race.
    I do not accept the idea that NPC races form a part of the identity of the factions. Ogres and Mok'Nathal are not part of the Horde. They have an association with the Horde due to the past, but that does not give the Horde claim to what they are or were as a part of what the Horde is. Same with the Hozen and the Kelfin.

    Giving blue eyes to Blood Elves is just giving Blood Elves an extra customisation option entirely consistent with the established biology of their race. However, giving Blood Elves the skin tones of the void elves would be an infringement of the identity of an Alliance race and would not be acceptable. Void Elves, as a playable race, constitute an important part of the Alliance and what makes them unique helps keep the Alliance unique.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    As always, you demonstrate a tenuous - at best - grasp on the Alliance lore. The High Elves remained in the Alliance even after the Second War.

    The Kingdom of Quel'thalas left, yes, but the High Elves, those who proved to be the sole deserving of that name, the ones who didn't reject it and didn't ally with the monsters which slaughtered their families (be it the orcs or the undeads) kept to this name. they are the only one whom matters when talking about the High Elves nowadays, because they are the last ones to call themselves that way. And those same elves were already part of the Alliance back in vanilla, remained as such during Burning Crusade, received an upgraded involvement in Wrath and have kept apeparing ever since, be it Cataclysm were some joined the forces of the Kaldorei in Stonetalon, played a huge role in two patches of MoP - and were instrumental in the one time in-game where the Alliance was allowed to bloody the nose of the Horde, the Purge of Dalaran.
    Like it or not, the High Elves left the Alliance. Clinging to a few individuals who decided not to follow orders to argue that a High Elf presence was maintained in the Alliance is akin to arguing the British are an important part of the EU post Brexit. That isn't how it works. The Elves were, pre-socurge, an isolationist and faintly xenophobic people with a superiority complex who wanted as little to do with the rest of Azeroth as they could manage. A few rejected this approach, and this same few are probably the band who ended up in exile, but they do not constitute a unique, strong part of the Alliance. They are what they appear to be, a rebel faction of an existing Horde race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    They have somewhat faded during WoD and Legion, and had to be sidelined pretty hard by Blizzard to try and push the Void Elves, who proved to be an utter failure in that they were clearly designed to be the death-knell of the high Elves demands, and have only intensified it, because they destroyed utterly any and all arguments made against playable High Elves.

    If you also think that the Gnomes, a race whom representatives almost always end undermining the Alliance war effort in every base they appear (like in the Tarides, in Blazedge Mountains, Uldum and many other places) and have largely been written as a pathetic joke race since Vanilla, unable to retake their city from one pathetic loser and having to wait until Battle of Dazar'alor to be of slight importance in the game... only to be upstagged in technological achievments by their allied race - which is the ugliest and least played of them all, as far as I know.

    I'd also like to signal that my main has been the same male Draeneï from day one of my WoW history, wayback in TBC. They are still my favorite race, their zones are my favorites. But they have been an utter asspull, and we know it. Same with Worgens, who ended being humans with hair problems anyway, like Kul Tirans are somehow big humans because reasons. The Lightforged exist to be Draeneï harder - and probably have ûber-Turalyon alive I suspect - and Void Elves... Well, I love them, I mean I made a thread for them. But pretending that they aren't an asspull, when nothing in the reputation which allows to unlock them is pretty telling that they were hastily chosen and designed. As for Trash Gnomes, the least said about them, the better.
    This passage reeks of bitterness regarding how you feel the Alliance was treated with the options granted.

    Irrelevant. Damaging the faction barrier in a doomed attempt to assuage your complaints by duplicating a core Horde race isn't a solution. If they thought a new race would be that easy a fix they'd probably create a brand new one to give to the Alliance with a cool level to give Horde players a serious case of envy.

    Gnomes ARE a core and iconic Alliance race, far more so than the high elves. It might chagrin you that they are portrayed as iconic, but that is the case given their ubiquitous presence throughout the game as a part of the Alliance. That they are treated very often for comic relief is also irrelevant. The Goblins are a core and iconic Horde race and they receive the same treatment, that does not mean they are any less a core part of the Horde.

    One race is not going to fix the problems you imagine the Alliance faction has. And given the downsides towards faction identity of adding that race have been thoroughly described, you almost certainly aren't going to get them. After all, the discussion in recent months has not been about a high elf allied race option, it's been about void elves getting pretend high elf like skins. A Void Elf maybe a different flavour of high elf, but they aren't the traditional style of high elf that is found as a Blood Elf and even if Void Elves were to get high elf like skins, it would still be a void elf, with the void enhanced reverb emoting and the proccing into void form every one or two minutes.

  18. #15238
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Like it or not, the High Elves left the Alliance. Clinging to a few individuals who decided not to follow orders to argue that a High Elf presence was maintained in the Alliance is akin to arguing the British are an important part of the EU post Brexit. That isn't how it works. The Elves were, pre-socurge, an isolationist and faintly xenophobic people with a superiority complex who wanted as little to do with the rest of Azeroth as they could manage. A few rejected this approach, and this same few are probably the band who ended up in exile, but they do not constitute a unique, strong part of the Alliance. They are what they appear to be, a rebel faction of an existing Horde race.

    This passage reeks of bitterness regarding how you feel the Alliance was treated with the options granted.

    Irrelevant. Damaging the faction barrier in a doomed attempt to assuage your complaints by duplicating a core Horde race isn't a solution. If they thought a new race would be that easy a fix they'd probably create a brand new one to give to the Alliance with a cool level to give Horde players a serious case of envy.

    Gnomes ARE a core and iconic Alliance race, far more so than the high elves. It might chagrin you that they are portrayed as iconic, but that is the case given their ubiquitous presence throughout the game as a part of the Alliance. That they are treated very often for comic relief is also irrelevant. The Goblins are a core and iconic Horde race and they receive the same treatment, that does not mean they are any less a core part of the Horde.

    One race is not going to fix the problems you imagine the Alliance faction has. And given the downsides towards faction identity of adding that race have been thoroughly described, you almost certainly aren't going to get them. After all, the discussion in recent months has not been about a high elf allied race option, it's been about void elves getting pretend high elf like skins. A Void Elf maybe a different flavour of high elf, but they aren't the traditional style of high elf that is found as a Blood Elf and even if Void Elves were to get high elf like skins, it would still be a void elf, with the void enhanced reverb emoting and the proccing into void form every one or two minutes.
    You can downplay the number of High Elves still remaining, but they are still outnumbering the few Void Elves by a wide margin, forming real and sustainable groups (like the Silver Covenant and the Lodge of Quel Lithien) which had to be purposely left out of BFA because otherwise the ren'doreï would have suffered even more than they did to become acceptable. In that regard, the High Elves do constitue a unique, distinct experience of elves than the Void, Blood or Night (Kal and Shal) Elves offer.

    Their story, their growth, isn't the Blood Elve's, it has become distinct and remains as such. It isn't either the Human's, even if the two are interwinned, like the Blood Elves' isn't the Forsaken's.

    And some people just want High Elves skins on Void Elves. If we can't have what we deserve because Blizzard still wants to spat on the Alliance playerbase -while probably handing out something great and requested to the Horde, as always - that's their problem. I'd rather have that than nothing at all, but between reskinned Void Elves and true playable High Elves, I'd take the latter. Bonus point for the rage it'd induce in BE players, who have always been the only ones clinging to appearance when talking about High Elves.

  19. #15239
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    You can downplay the number of High Elves still remaining, but they are still outnumbering the few Void Elves by a wide margin, forming real and sustainable groups (like the Silver Covenant and the Lodge of Quel Lithien) which had to be purposely left out of BFA because otherwise the ren'doreï would have suffered even more than they did to become acceptable. In that regard, the High Elves do constitue a unique, distinct experience of elves than the Void, Blood or Night (Kal and Shal) Elves offer.
    I've seen some source somewhere that there's even lesser Darkspears at this point than High Elves
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  20. #15240
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I've seen some source somewhere that there's even lesser Darkspears at this point than High Elves
    I'm actually not sure about this, because we know trolls mate a lot and probably grow a lot faster than elves. Since the Echo Isles have been largely left alone in recent years, i think a lot of them can have been born and soon able to be teenagers/adults.

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