Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

EDIT ": It seems all the Argent Tournament NPC's were added, so I think it mostly means we will pass through there or the grounds will be relevant for a reason.

Weird to think they are still all there.

The Argent Tournament grounds are located in Icecrown, so their involvement is not that unthinkable.

As to why they are all still there... why not? I imagine the place may have turned into an actual tournament place where the Argent Crusade trainees test their mettle and train.

[FlubberPuddy]

No one is arguing that it is, so why bring it up?

Lol this is false, just from the recent pages we have posters saying that "people finally got their High Elves, Blue Eyes have come to Blood Elves!" and we've had people insisting that "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" are what High Elf fans are asking for.

You're not new to this discussion and I already know where your stance is so I'm not sure the purpose of egging on a question you clearly know the answer to other than trying to be inflammatory.

The biggest takeaway from the video is reinforcing what is meant when High Elf fans ask for High Elves. As clearly by Ion's response of "Horde is waiting for you," it was misunderstood.

Ion's response is like someone saying "How come people are asking for High Elves? There's already Blood Elves on the Horde" which completely ignores or misses that for a very long time it's always been about the High Elves that exist on Alliance.

Essentially, T&E's video is pointing out people will continue asking for High Elves because it's about being able to play a specific group that exists on the Alliance which the game itself recognizes as a distinct group from the Blood Elves on Horde.

"So it's not the same thing" -T&E

Blood Elves receiving Blue Eyes doesn't change that. Telling a person asking for High Elves to go play a Blood Elf is and always will be meaningless.

- - - Updated - - -

Also in reference to why share the video: Because they're continuing to reiterate the essence of what High Elf fans want. They have a huge audience and this helps to get more people understanding what is wanted (and yes there's people who don't understand it, look to when Aucald asked for clarification after this discussion thread alone was hundreds of pages deep).

[Beloren]

It wouldn't make sense to have blood elves go full light. They're still a strong arcane based society heck look at their racials, every one of them is arcane focused.

.

Some players really struggle to accept non-human races having more than one thing to them - so streotypical and cliched - something you'd think they'd know is distinctive about blizzard races for not following other franchises. The Night elf crowd are screaming to stop considering Night elves only as forest elves, and remember they're also arcane dark elves.

And I come here and see the same thing been implied by @Gurluas for Blood elves but with the Light instead. What about a fan like me that really likes the Farstrider ranger side, the Magister arcane side and the Blood Knight light side? e see blood elves being shown in lore as very strong in all 3. Yes, very strong. Showing the strength of the light side doesn't automatically make them bad at the arcane just because Nightborne are around.

It's like NElf fans are saying, Nightborne around doesn't auto mean Night elves are now only about the forest and rural society , they're still night elves and still have Highborne, Moonguard and others like Illidari around who are all heavy magic users.

it's okay for Elves to have more than one thing they're good at. This is not D&D or NWN, where non-human races only have one main thing to them.

- - - Updated - - -

Blue eyes for blood elves are a lore accurate expansion of the customization options available to blood elves, as announced at Blizzcon. Why even bother acting like this is about the Alliance?

Exactly. Thank you. I'm not a high elf hater, and if you guys get em, good for you, i'm convinced the impact would be insignificant to the horde. Cos no one would faction change just to be High elves from horde (especially if blood elves get blue eyes). If anything, it is the Night elf race that will lose numbers, because Elves are supposed to be pretty, and Night elves, especially males, just don't quite make it. Blizzard really have put a ceiling on them, their Nightborne horde versions are even uglier.

Blue yes for Blood elves really has nothing to do with High elves. Yes iI understand why alliance fans may feel this is a dig, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but blood elves need this option and they also need some of these lovely high elf concepts to be used for Farstrider customisations.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The Argent Tournament grounds are located in Icecrown, so their involvement is not that unthinkable.

As to why they are all still there... why not? I imagine the place may have turned into an actual tournament place where the Argent Crusade trainees test their mettle and train.

Honestly I just had the idea that it was there to train for the fight against the Lich king, so it's interesting to think they didn't packed up after Arthas left lol.

[Ielenia]

Honestly I just had the idea that it was there to train for the fight against the Lich king, so it's interesting to think they didn't packed up after Arthas left lol.

Well, that was the original intention, but then... why "pack up and leave", especially since there was that whole shpiel about "there must always be a Lich King yadda yadda", so their continuous presence there was kind of warranted.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well, that was the original intention, but then... why "pack up and leave", especially since there was that whole shpiel about "there must always be a Lich King yadda yadda", so their continuous presence there was kind of warranted.

I guess *shrug emoji*

[Strippling]

This is the second Taliesin and Evitel video you have posted here recently and then dissected as if it were some kind of developer commentary. They make extremely entertaining videos but they are not developers. And as much as you like repeating what they say about this particular topic, they never actually engaged with the rationale that saw High Elves rejected as an Allied race (the degradation of faction diversity), so their power of analysis on this particular point are not above reproach. But then again they are fans, not developers, and shouldn't be held to developer standards.

I attribute the part bolded to T&E's alliance bias. They make great videos for the most part though.

It seems to be an attempt to establish a moral and temperamental superiority for the Exiles over the Blood Elves. That does not stand up to scrutiny of course, but the power of the myth created by pro high elf fans can be very powerful. For example, a pro High Elfer can insist that the high elves wouldn't mess with dangerous magics and if you point out Quel'lithien lodge, the high elves who sold their souls to Malygos or the high elves working with the twilight's hammer, those are simply ignored in favour of a restatement of the myth.

Alliance aligned high elves are certainly no moral compass. From failing to lift a finger to defend their homeland from the scourge, to the purge of dalaran (which they jumped at the opportunity), to Quelithian lodge.... they are more like their blood elven kin than pro high elfers would like to admit.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol this is false, just from the recent pages we have posters saying that "people finally got their High Elves, Blue Eyes have come to Blood Elves!" and we've had people insisting that "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" are what High Elf fans are asking for.

You're not new to this discussion and I already know where your stance is so I'm not sure the purpose of egging on a question you clearly know the answer to other than trying to be inflammatory.

The biggest takeaway from the video is reinforcing what is meant when High Elf fans ask for High Elves. As clearly by Ion's response of "Horde is waiting for you," it was misunderstood.

Ion's response is like someone saying "How come people are asking for High Elves? There's already Blood Elves on the Horde" which completely ignores or misses that for a very long time it's always been about the High Elves that exist on Alliance.

Essentially, T&E's video is pointing out people will continue asking for High Elves because it's about being able to play a specific group that exists on the Alliance which the game itself recognizes as a distinct group from the Blood Elves on Horde.

"So it's not the same thing" -T&E

Blood Elves receiving Blue Eyes doesn't change that. Telling a person asking for High Elves to go play a Blood Elf is and always will be meaningless.

- - - Updated - - -

Also in reference to why share the video: Because they're continuing to reiterate the essence of what High Elf fans want. They have a huge audience and this helps to get more people understanding what is wanted (and yes there's people who don't understand it, look to when Aucald asked for clarification after this discussion thread alone was hundreds of pages deep).

If Horde players were to request alterac humans as a playable race in the Horde I can guarantee you that Blizzard would offer them a similar response to what they gave high elf fans.

It doesn't matter if high elfers want the "specific high elves aligned with the alliance", fact of the matter is that those specific elves are not unique enough from blood elves to warrant becoming playable. They are the same race, a race already available to the Horde. Blizzard have stated they do not wish to blur faction lines and they feel a group of high elves on the alliance will blur the faction lines, given the high elf race is already playable on the Horde.

This game involves two factions, each with distinct and unique races allied to them. This distinction plays an integral roll in the entire system of WoW, so just because a handful of one race are aligned to the other faction does not mean Blizzard are going to make them playable. Blizzard have very clearly stated that blood elves are our high elves, and that is where they want to keep the focus for "high elf" story in general. The few alliance aligned high elves are a minor contribution to the story of WoW and the story of the high elven race, and as such, are delegated to NPC status. Same reason why other minor races are not playable (such as Taunka, etc..). Alliance aligned high elves are not thriving, they're dissipating into human society. There is no real example of what a high elf is. Is it an elf from the lodge, is it the SC, is it the handful of them in SW? Each of these small groups of high elves have differing views and stances, they're effectively different groups from each other. They do not unite under one banner as a "nation of high elves" and lore makes us believe they have no real desire to unite.

SO again, whether some players want high elves is mute. The reason for them not being playable has been given, it's up to those specific players to accept that blood elves are there if they choose so. Same for Horde players who want humans or DID, due to the faction system (a core system) those Horde players would need to play Alliance. It's not about Blizzard not understanding what high elfers want, it's high elfers either not understanding or choosing to ignore a core system of the game. Faction identity > a third playable high elf group

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm amazed at how a one minute segment has seemingly ruffled so many particular feathers

[protip]

Lol this is false, just from the recent pages we have posters saying that "people finally got their High Elves, Blue Eyes have come to Blood Elves!" and we've had people insisting that "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" are what High Elf fans are asking for.

You're not new to this discussion and I already know where your stance is so I'm not sure the purpose of egging on a question you clearly know the answer to other than trying to be inflammatory.

The biggest takeaway from the video is reinforcing what is meant when High Elf fans ask for High Elves. As clearly by Ion's response of "Horde is waiting for you," it was misunderstood.

Ion's response is like someone saying "How come people are asking for High Elves? There's already Blood Elves on the Horde" which completely ignores or misses that for a very long time it's always been about the High Elves that exist on Alliance.

Essentially, T&E's video is pointing out people will continue asking for High Elves because it's about being able to play a specific group that exists on the Alliance which the game itself recognizes as a distinct group from the Blood Elves on Horde.

"So it's not the same thing" -T&E

Blood Elves receiving Blue Eyes doesn't change that. Telling a person asking for High Elves to go play a Blood Elf is and always will be meaningless.

- - - Updated - - -

Also in reference to why share the video: Because they're continuing to reiterate the essence of what High Elf fans want. They have a huge audience and this helps to get more people understanding what is wanted (and yes there's people who don't understand it, look to when Aucald asked for clarification after this discussion thread alone was hundreds of pages deep).

My point remains. That segment approaches the topic as if this is Blizzard's way of trying to compromise with Alliance high elf fans. That is very presumptuous. Blue eyes for blood elves are a positive and entirely predictable expansion to blood elf customization options regardless of the position of Alliance high elf fans. The idea that this is a failed attempt to compromise with high elf fans, rather than simply being what blood elves should have according to their own lore and fantasy, strikes me as a bit self centered, to be perfectly honest.

[Obelisk Kai]

As long as the only official lore of Void Elves is that they are Blood Elven scholars transformed against their will, not really.

I mean, sure, you can, that's not the issue; the problem is if any elf that delved on the void could became a VE, then you'd look like Alleria. VE's look like they do because of the specific context that created -a botched ritual- the only other VE we have seen in game -Alleria- looks like a High Elf.

And more importantly; you can headcanon your character's background to be whatever you want, that has no incidence, or relevance, to what is the official lore. It's pretty disingenuous to answer the concern of a tangible lore advancement/resolution for the High Elves -or at least the Silver Covenant- by saying "you can just pretend you are a SC high elf-

Sure it's also fun to play a redeemed Eredar as a Draenei, does not mean that in the official lore that is a fact. The realms of personal headcanon or narrative just aren't the same that those of official lore.

But head canoning your own lore is exactly what many other people are now expected to do as per Moorgard's interview with Taliesin and Evitel.

If you want to roleplay as a Wildhammer Dwarf, you can do that. If you want to roleplay as a Forest Troll, you can do that. What they aren't going to do is take the time to lay out a formal lore foundation for these choices because that would take so much time that they wouldn't do the new customisations if it were a requirement.

Those people who want to play Wildhammer Dwarves or Forest Trolls are expected to settle for this.

Why should those people who want to argue that their Void Elf was previously a high elf exile get that extra level of attention that other players explicitly aren't going to get? In fact by placing the High Elf Waryfarers inside Telrogus, Blizzard has already gone a step further by demonstrating that high elf exiles who wish to explore the powers of the void canonically exist.

Just as Wildhammer and Forest Troll roleplayers must settle for using their internal headcanon narrative in lieu of an introduction, so too must those who wish to play their Void Elves as former high elf exiles. What matters is that the story makes sense with your chosen race and as thalassian bob has shown, a narrative can easily be constructed that demonstrates why your Void Elf was a former high elf.

As for your specific point on Alleria and her appearance, that isn't the case. Alleria looks the way she does because she is a hero character and her method of becoming a Void Elf was unique in that she ate the heart of a dark naaru. The other method may have been a botched attempt to turn the victims into ethereals, but story wise it seems easier to replicate a ritual where you are just bombaring the target with void energy than finding an incredibly rare dark naaru and eating it's heart.

Remember also the lore is sort of irrelevant on this. Alleria's hero character status is why she has the toggle. Common Void Elves are purple to distinguish them from Blood Elves, and it is that distinction that allowed them to be added in the first place. If they had wanted to, they could have written the lore so that Void Elves did look identical to Blood Elves. They wrote the lore they way they did because making them look different was the point. It was the idea of making them purple that came first in other words, then the lore to underpin that change.

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed. People construct this paragon image and then just ignore any lore that contradicts that. People sometimes do it for the Alliance as a whole and Sylvanas is another figure who garners (or used to) defence to that degree.

Alliance aligned high elves are certainly no moral compass. From failing to lift a finger to defend their homeland from the scourge, to the purge of dalaran (which they jumped at the opportunity), to Quelithian lodge.... they are more like their blood elven kin than pro high elfers would like to admit.

It gets a bit weird when the evidence shows they are far from perfect. In fact, viewed from a holistic, neutral perspective, they've committed the worst crime any citizen of a state can commit, treason against their home and aiding an enemy in a time of a war.

Which of course leaves aside the unwarranted murders they've committed. Not even talking about the purge.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=14457/...-plan#comments

There's a quest to kill a Sunreaver on the sly for information that took place in WOTLK. Hardly noble or pure in my opinion.

Frankly they strike me as a tiny bunch of grumpy exiles embittered by their irrelevance.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm amazed at how a one minute segment has seemingly ruffled so many particular feathers

No it's not that. It's your unerring habit to pick one piece of a video or a comment entirely out of context and then inflate it's importance wildly beyond all actual relevance.

In 2017 when Ion gave the first Blood Elves are high elves rejection in the Jesse Cox video, for months you peddled the theory that you yourself had originated, with no evidence to back it up, that he was essentially lying and that the reason he had said that was to not rain on the Void Elves big reveal. High Elves would undoubtedly come later. You also railed against the obvious, correct answer, that Void Elves were the replacement for high elves within the Alliance and that their differences were intended to provide a measure of distance with the Horde Blood Elves.

In the early part of 2018, as forum threads ballooned across the official website, blue posts appeared to corral and contain the high elf comments as much as possible. The obvious reason was that the forum managers were managing forums. Instead you interpreted it as they were actively soliciting feedback from pro high elfers for the inevitable reveal of a high elf allied race.

In April 2018, nearly two years ago, when Ion delivered his lengthy rejection of a high elf allied race, you latched onto his 'anything is possible in future' comment. Even though it has been repeatedly pointed out to you that 'anything is possible in future' is Ion's legalese way of saying 'don't count on it' you have insisted on reinterpreting it as some kind of promise. You seemingly fixated on it to the exclusion of the meat of his answer.

In November 2018 when Afrasiabi commented on the potential of Void Elf skins, you focused entirely on the very brief comments that it was possible whilst ignoring everything that came after, which was an extended commentary on the forum behaviour clearly associated in the minds of the devs with this topic. Similarly, when the pro high elf fan spoke privately with Ion (in a conversation we have no record of and which was reported back by a pro High Elfer) at that very same Blizzcon, even though Ion essentially delivered the same message he had in his previous two (much more public rejections), the fact he softened that message was somehow interpreted as progress. The more obvious rationale, that Ion was simply being friendly with a fan he met and cut the snark in an actual human interaction, was again ignored.

Now we have had three videos in the past three weeks. Two of which are from Taliesin and Evitel and are merely their opinions. As incredibly entertaining as their videos are, they aren't always right, and being a well known content creator does not make you a developer. Their opinions on high elves within the Alliance are free to be aired, but we can also point how flawed those opinions are, particularly given that on the occasions they have touched on this issue they have not once dealt with the reason high elves were rejected, the impact on faction diversity and that Blood Elves ARE playable high elves.

The Danuser video joins the other videos in this list as the latest in a long series of selective interpretations where you pick out the parts you like and strip them of context and nuance to bolster your case. The Danuser video supports you headcanoning whatever you want, but it also says they don't need to formally support it. The options given to Dwarves and Trolls are not to support their roleplaying, it is merely to give them extra options, options that are compatible with already playable Dwarves and Trolls because those Dwarves and Trolls are biologically identical with the sub-groups they are now capable of representing.

In short, no feathers are ruffled because even the wind needs some force behind it to ruffle those feathers. A content creator, no matter how entertaining, has no force. It is just one more example of attempting to build something when there was nothing much to build with.

- - - Updated - - -

My point remains. That segment approaches the topic as if this is Blizzard's way of trying to compromise with Alliance high elf fans. That is very presumptuous. Blue eyes for blood elves are a positive and entirely predictable expansion to blood elf customization options regardless of the position of Alliance high elf fans. The idea that this is a failed attempt to compromise with high elf fans, rather than simply being what blood elves should have according to their own lore and fantasy, strikes me as a bit self centered, to be perfectly honest.

As I have argued in the past, the idea that blue eyes would be denied to Blood Elves on the objections of the pro High Elf fans never struck me as correct. Why would Blizzard pander to people NOT playing a group when they could give people playing that race what they are asking for?

Presumptious is the correct word, the presumption that their feelings on the high elf exiles are to be treated with care and reverence. This was demonstrated as recently as April Fools, where the High Dwarf jokes was interpreted by some as an indication high elves were, in some fashion, on the way because Blizzard wouldn't dare poke fun at them without having actual High Elves in the pipeline.

It is still not certain that we will receive blue eyes, although the five options datamined (far more than what is necessary for an NPC option) mean the prognosis is currently positive. But if we don't receive them, it will likely be because of reasons of lore rather than the pro High elf community being listened to. Though they will doubtless interpret such an outcome that way.

[elbleuet]

So glad to see the Silver Covenant back again because that means Vereesa will be relevant again along with Alleria in Shadowlands.

Once more High elves are back in the upcoming expansion. This is great.

[protip]

As I have argued in the past, the idea that blue eyes would be denied to Blood Elves on the objections of the pro High Elf fans never struck me as correct. Why would Blizzard pander to people NOT playing a group when they could give people playing that race what they are asking for?

Presumptious is the correct word, the presumption that their feelings on the high elf exiles are to be treated with care and reverence. This was demonstrated as recently as April Fools, where the High Dwarf jokes was interpreted by some as an indication high elves were, in some fashion, on the way because Blizzard wouldn't dare poke fun at them without having actual High Elves in the pipeline.

It is still not certain that we will receive blue eyes, although the five options datamined (far more than what is necessary for an NPC option) mean the prognosis is currently positive. But if we don't receive them, it will likely be because of reasons of lore rather than the pro High elf community being listened to. Though they will doubtless interpret such an outcome that way.

Agreed, nothing is confirmed yet, but there is a range of options from blue to green, so I'd be pretty surprised if they had put in the time to expand NPC options prior to their stated goal of adding options for the core races. For NPCs, some minor updates would be necessary to work with the new rigging (because the eyes are being separated from the facial textures), but there would be no need to add new options. In particular, though, the fact that there is a range with very subtle differences communicates that there is no binary value that determines high elf eye color. It's a confirmation of the fact that the green eye color was developed over time, rather than as an immediate transformation caused by mana tap. It's true that these options haven't even been tested properly on alpha, and therefore that Blizzard could change their plans, but their inclusion in the game files does have certain implications.

[Thalassian Bob]

It gets a bit weird when the evidence shows they are far from perfect. In fact, viewed from a holistic, neutral perspective, they've committed the worst crime any citizen of a state can commit, treason against their home and aiding an enemy in a time of a war.

Which of course leaves aside the unwarranted murders they've committed. Not even talking about the purge.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=14457/...-plan#comments

There's a quest to kill a Sunreaver on the sly for information that took place in WOTLK. Hardly noble or pure in my opinion.

Frankly they strike me as a tiny bunch of grumpy exiles embittered by their irrelevance.

Yeah, fair enough for the Dalaran expats who, for whatever reason, just don't really feel strong enough ties to their ancestral homeland to have answered Kael'thas' rallying call after the fall of Quel'Thalas. It's only really dawned on me now that with the ancient beginnings of Dalaran (apparently some 2,000 years before the First War), there have probably been generations of high elves born in the magocratic city-state who have never called Quel'Thalas home. Pluralistic Dalaran might be all they've ever really known. If those elves want to prioritise Dalaran over Quel'Thalas, I can understand that.

But, the Silver Covenant started as a reaction to Silvermoon's recent political endeavours and its ranks are probably filled with recently expatriated elves with big chips on their shoulders. Their founder, the youngest surviving member of a family that has dedicated itself to defending Quel'Thalas for millennia, abandoned her nation to elope with a human mage, morally condemned the remnants of her people still left in Quel'Thalas due to the actions of one demented relative and did so with murderous contempt and was completely absent during the reclamation and rebuilding of Quel'Thalas but then had the gall to say that she had as much right to be there as the blood elves.

Vereesa's disloyalty doesn't stop with her homeland, she almost abandoned her children as well because Sylvanas waved the prospect of joint leadership of the Forsaken and unfettered access to the nation she betrayed in her face. Thankfully for her kids, someone reminded her they existed and she realised that maybe there wouldn't be much room in the Undercity for two little mortal boys.



I really think a rejection of the idea of rubbing shoulders with the Horde would have been a much stronger and sympathetic explicit motivation for Vereesa and the Silver Covenant working against the blood elves (at least before all the assassinations and purges) because the Farstriders fought the Amani trolls for millennia and Vereesa herself even lost a brother to an Amani raid. So, having her and the SC membership - made up largely, by the looks of it, of former Farstriders - work as foils to the blood elves on that premise would have felt a lot more natural to me.

Instead, we have all this "Blood elves are vampires!" bollocks that leads to the belief in some that the high elves are all puritanical paragons.

[FlubberPuddy]

My point remains. That segment approaches the topic as if this is Blizzard's way of trying to compromise with Alliance high elf fans. That is very presumptuous. Blue eyes for blood elves are a positive and entirely predictable expansion to blood elf customization options regardless of the position of Alliance high elf fans. The idea that this is a failed attempt to compromise with high elf fans, rather than simply being what blood elves should have according to their own lore and fantasy, strikes me as a bit self centered, to be perfectly honest.

1) As I've said, that's because agitators have gone around painting it as so, "there's your High Elves, now stfu about it!" it's continuing to deliver the misunderstanding. So I see why T&E are calling for people to not get upset 'yet'.

If those agitators are being presumptuous about it then that's on them, and the comments Taliesin highlights are most likely from those response threads on Official Forums where people created threads purposely titled in a way to agitate High Elf fans.

The same thing happened when Blizzard changed how DK glowy eyes work and examples of Blood Elf DKs were used. Some people came into this thread trying be inflammatory and posted "oh look there's your High Elves now!"

If anything, the reason High Elf fans may push back the way they do is because there's an unmitigated amount of trolling them going around that doesn't occur with the other potential race topics. That's an observable fact as well.

2) This is the point I wasn't understanding until you became clear about it just now. Actually EnigmaAddict also helped illuminate what you were questioning because you weren't being clear about it in the first place.

And to that I have to say I think we are focusing on different things. I don't care whether Blue Eyes comes to Blood Elves, I've already stated that multiple times. While I don't expect someone to read every single post that's been posted, it's much better to read a few of the recent pages to get an idea of what's been said recently. Jumping in without context leads to posts like this.

So I think you and I are focusing on different things. I shared the video mainly because T&E succinctly point out "famously when players ask for High Elves they're specifically asking for Alliance High Elves." As there are still a great many in the community that do not even understand that, and especially Ion's response showcased he did not because he never acknowledged them (Silver Covenant) and the only one he could think of on the fly was Alleria.

I was not taking the position of what you're saying. I've been already commenting that whatever Blood Elves get has no bearing on people asking for High Elves and that High Elf fans will continue to ask for High Elves regardless.

Because again, as T&E points out, the game itself makes a distinction between High Elves and Blood Elves and they reiterate the High Elf fans want to be part of that specific High Elf group rather than part of the Blood Elf group.

So I've never been seeing it as a failed attempt to compromise (getting the blue eyes in datamining), which is why I've been asking why are you assigning that stance to me? I'm not the one who's ever voiced those concerns.

My big takeaway is what I've already said: The video presents what it actually is High Elf fans are asking for when they request for High Elves and highlights that with evidence from the game itself making a distinction between the two groups.

Because the argument that a lot of those against High Elves has always been the blatant "you just want to play Blood Elves on the Alliance" which is being put out there by T&E as not true at all, clarified on what is actually meant, and backed up by evidence from the game itself even.

It is a small victory to see that recognition from a big influencer in the WoW community. People want that specific Alliance High Elf experience and they have yet to get it, which is why the requests will continue.

- - - Updated - - -

Next time try not to be so vague @protip and actually say what you mean.

[Ardenaso]

It gets a bit weird when the evidence shows they are far from perfect. In fact, viewed from a holistic, neutral perspective, they've committed the worst crime any citizen of a state can commit, treason against their home and aiding an enemy in a time of a war.

Which of course leaves aside the unwarranted murders they've committed. Not even talking about the purge.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=14457/...-plan#comments

There's a quest to kill a Sunreaver on the sly for information that took place in WOTLK. Hardly noble or pure in my opinion.

Frankly they strike me as a tiny bunch of grumpy exiles embittered by their irrelevance.

to be fair it's no longer treason when you get kicked out first

- - - Updated - - -

Also,

Arcanist Tybalin says: Never trust The Sunreavers. They are hard at work undermining us in the eyes of our Argent Crusade allies.

He probably talks about the time the Blood Knights massacred the Silver Hand refugees in the Alonsus Chapel. Not very good sweeping hasty generalization though

[Koryn123]

He probably talks about the time the Blood Knights massacred the Silver Hand refugees in the Alonsus Chapel. Not very good sweeping hasty generalization though

I believe those were ghosts that appeared when you started defiling the chapel. The only living person in the chapel was Aurius, and fighting or killing him is non-canon as his WoWPedia says he dies in the fight with Baron Rivendare.

We could perhaps say that some of the Blood Elf/Draenei content that takes place in Azeroth could perhaps canonically happen before the end of Vanilla, and the Blood Knights go to the chapel before the main "adventurers" enter Stratholme and kill Rivendare with Aurius' help. Could say that the Blood Knights defiled the chapel, fought Aurius, wounded him, but the spirits of the place or the Light was so strong that it could heal/rez him for adventurers to find in Vanilla.

I don't think very much Blood Elf/Draenei content happening during Vanilla conflicts with the timeline up to the Dark Portal, so I wouldn't mind if they were just added in already in Classic.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

But head canoning your own lore is exactly what many other people are now expected to do as per Moorgard's interview with Taliesin and Evitel.

If you want to roleplay as a Wildhammer Dwarf, you can do that. If you want to roleplay as a Forest Troll, you can do that. What they aren't going to do is take the time to lay out a formal lore foundation for these choices because that would take so much time that they wouldn't do the new customisations if it were a requirement.

Those people who want to play Wildhammer Dwarves or Forest Trolls are expected to settle for this.

Why should those people who want to argue that their Void Elf was previously a high elf exile get that extra level of attention that other players explicitly aren't going to get? In fact by placing the High Elf Waryfarers inside Telrogus, Blizzard has already gone a step further by demonstrating that high elf exiles who wish to explore the powers of the void canonically exist.

Just as Wildhammer and Forest Troll roleplayers must settle for using their internal headcanon narrative in lieu of an introduction, so too must those who wish to play their Void Elves as former high elf exiles. What matters is that the story makes sense with your chosen race and as thalassian bob has shown, a narrative can easily be constructed that demonstrates why your Void Elf was a former high elf.

Because it's simply not the same context dear lord. Because it's not the same to add the Wildhammer appearance to Dwarves to make them playable, and to not give Void Elves a High Elven appearance, but just pretend the High Elf became a Void Elf. The later OBVIOUSLY needs more explanation, how can you even say they are on the same level man. You'd have a point if Void Elves were given HE appearance without more explanation, but that's certainly not what you are asking; again, there's just worlds of difference between what it is instantly recognizable as a WHD being playable because that's the aesthetic on itself. You can see they are a wildhammer; if you are not going to give VE's a HE look, then there's no visible way of even noticing, thus is entirely a matter of lore bakcground what would differentiate them.

And we already have lore reasons why Wildhammer are alliance and Revantusk are Horde. We already know that background. What there is simply not is any specific lore that High Elves or more Blood Elves can even be turned into VE's at this point. Seriously I can't get why are you arguing about more lore clarification, it comes across as contrarian for its own sake.

As for your specific point on Alleria and her appearance, that isn't the case. Alleria looks the way she does because she is a hero character and her method of becoming a Void Elf was unique in that she ate the heart of a dark naaru. The other method may have been a botched attempt to turn the victims into ethereals, but story wise it seems easier to replicate a ritual where you are just bombaring the target with void energy than finding an incredibly rare dark naaru and eating it's heart.

Remember also the lore is sort of irrelevant on this. Alleria's hero character status is why she has the toggle. Common Void Elves are purple to distinguish them from Blood Elves, and it is that distinction that allowed them to be added in the first place. If they had wanted to, they could have written the lore so that Void Elves did look identical to Blood Elves. They wrote the lore they way they did because making them look different was the point. It was the idea of making them purple that came first in other words, then the lore to underpin that change.

Indeed, the point of VE's palette is simply -and lazily- make them different from Blood Elves, so from a design perspective they will justify why they are blue if they make more. Whatever way they find in universe to do so, will most likely result in more blue elves.

What I am saying in regards to this is that we need an explanation on how more VE's can be made, and why they will be blue. You can justify laziness with just saying "the playerbase has to headcanon it." Come on man, it's patently evident how the context for High Elves changing race is just not the same than "now there are wildhammer skins." If lore gives us two ways of becoming a Void Elf and only one can be replicated and it's not the one ends up with you looking blue, We Need a Lore Clarification That States Otherwise.

[Varodoc]

So glad to see the Silver Covenant back again because that means Vereesa will be relevant again along with Alleria in Shadowlands.

Once more High elves are back in the upcoming expansion. This is great.

I am expecting an Alleria-Vereesa-Lirath reunion in Shadowlands to be honest.

Vereesa seems to be accompanying Alleria a lot, at least based on the SoO 2.0 questline.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Vereesa's disloyalty doesn't stop with her homeland, she almost abandoned her children as well because Sylvanas waved the prospect of joint leadership of the Forsaken and unfettered access to the nation she betrayed in her face. Thankfully for her kids, someone reminded her they existed and she realised that maybe there wouldn't be much room in the Undercity for two little mortal boys.

I mean this has always been the most bad faith argument against Vereesa. Sure, let's just forget she was making horrible choices out of grief, let's pretend she was entirely rational at this point, that's totes as she was written! Like come on, it's just hilarious.

And INB4 "oh then are you justifying Vereesa's shity character", the whole point is that Rhonin's death broke her, it's not pretty at all, she was ready to give up all she believed out of vengeance, it's supposed to be dark. But can we pretend that is exemplary of her as a character and not of the situation she was in?

So, having her and the SC membership - made up largely, by the looks of it, of former Farstriders - work as foils to the blood elves on that premise would have felt a lot more natural to me.

Also why people keep repeating this headcanon? There's no evidence the Silver Covenant is made considerably of anything but Dalaran citizenry.

Instead, we have all this "Blood elves are vampires!" bollocks that leads to the belief in some that the high elves are all puritanical paragons.

Which has never been the position of the Silver Covenant or Vereesa herself. There's one group of High Elves that we know they left QT for moral reasons, and they are all dead. The divide of the SC has always pointed out to political disagreement and no much else; the main crux is that Theramoore radicalized the SC and made the grieving Vereesa all too willing to lash against the BE's in Dalaran and Isle of Thunder.

Only recently she has moved on and believe the BE's can be redeemed after all -meaning, returning to the alliance because as always, she hates the horde- but IDK how that would remain so after the Burning of Teldrassil.

- - - Updated - - -

I am expecting an Alleria-Vereesa-Lirath reunion in Shadowlands to be honest.

Vereesa seems to be accompanying Alleria a lot, at least based on the SoO 2.0 questline.

TBH I'm still shook they remembered Vereesa during 8.2.5 lol. Honestly there HAS to be some Windrunner family moments in Shadowlands, if not it's just a waste of getting Alleria back. I'm still thinking they are going to downright forget about Vereesa tho.

[Varodoc]

I mean this has always been the most bad faith argument against Vereesa. Sure, let's just forget she was making horrible choices out of grief, let's pretend she was entirely rational at this point, that's totes as she was written! Like come on, it's just hilarious.

And INB4 "oh then are you justifying Vereesa's shity character", the whole point is that Rhonin's death broke her, it's not pretty at all, she was ready to give up all she believed out of vengeance, it's supposed to be dark. But can we pretend that is exemplary of her as a character and not of the situation she was in?



Also why people keep repeating this headcanon? There's no evidence the Silver Covenant is made considerably of anything but Dalaran citizenry.

Which has never been the position of the Silver Covenant or Vereesa herself. There's one group of High Elves that we know they left QT for moral reasons, and they are all dead. The divide of the SC has always pointed out to political disagreement and no much else; the main crux is that Theramoore radicalized the SC and made the grieving Vereesa all too willing to lash against the BE's in Dalaran and Isle of Thunder.

Only recently she has moved on and believe the BE's can be redeemed after all -meaning, returning to the alliance because as always, she hates the horde- but IDK how that would remain so after the Burning of Teldrassil.

- - - Updated - - -



TBH I'm still shook they remembered Vereesa during 8.2.5 lol. Honestly there HAS to be some Windrunner family moments in Shadowlands, if not it's just a waste of getting Alleria back. I'm still thinking they are going to downright forget about Vereesa tho.

Novel will be about Alleria and Turalyon, so I'm sure they'll fit Vereesa in there somewhere. She's very close to Alleria, and I'm sure she too seeks to hunt down Sylvanas.