Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Syegfryed]

Sure, Vereesa is not relevant at all to the narrative of one of her sisters hunting down the other one. Are you being for real?

yes, quite real, i know people like to give her much credit, but, what is her relevance? JUST being someone else sister? she will not partake any role and will not be relevant at all, even in the comic she was there just because she was their sister

I mean just look at the Siege of orgrimmar 2, she was just there, and nothing more, like i said, she being mentioned is understandable, but to appear and do stuff? if the book was about alleria only, maybe, i doubt they will waste time making Alleria visit her and talk, and blablablabla, when the book is about a lot of key characters, they will prob cut to the important parts

[Highelf]

yes, quite real, i know people like to give her much credit, but, what is her relevance? JUST being someone else sister? she will not partake any role and will not be relevant at all, even in the comic she was there just because she was their sister

I mean just look at the Siege of orgrimmar 2, she was just there, and nothing more, like i said, she being mentioned is understandable, but to appear and do stuff? if the book was about alleria only, maybe, i doubt they will waste time making Alleria visit her and talk, and blablablabla, when the book is about a lot of key characters, they will prob cut to the important parts

She was actually the reason sylvanas didn't kill them both right there on the spot.

There was and have always been lore characters that are "just there", and there always will be.

[kingarthas]

So all of my blood elves can have blue eyes? Very cool, i don’t even have to lvl up a fresh one! I dont like to hide helm that much but its okay

[elbleuet]

yes, quite real, i know people like to give her much credit, but, what is her relevance? JUST being someone else sister? she will not partake any role and will not be relevant at all, even in the comic she was there just because she was their sister

I mean just look at the Siege of orgrimmar 2, she was just there, and nothing more, like i said, she being mentioned is understandable, but to appear and do stuff? if the book was about alleria only, maybe, i doubt they will waste time making Alleria visit her and talk, and blablablabla, when the book is about a lot of key characters, they will prob cut to the important parts

Of course she's not relevant.

When she freed Alexstasza, purged the Horde from a human city, battled against the Amani in Zul'Aman, was asked to act as an Ambassador by Terenas himself, defended Theramore, was there during the siege of Suramar and the fall of Gul'Dan, was there during the Siege of Orgrimmar 1 and the the Siege of Orgrimmar 2, served the Alliance interests upon the Isle of Thunder, battled the Legion on Argus while Lor'Themar was taking care of his hairs she wasn't relevant at all.


Remember, she's more relevant than more of 90% of both the current Horde leadership and the blood elf one.

[Thalassian Bob]

Very fair point; what I am ultimately saying is that we all have biases against certain characters, and I am not saying Vereesa has been written consistently well, or just consistently. But I do think a lot of people are unfair on her assessment of her to the point of vilifying. I get Vereesa is not likeable to some, but we all have to be wary of our own biases, because it may result on an emotional response that's not intended by the writing.

Indeed, I was just doing fact checking work on that, mostly because a lot of people keep bringing it up as a fact. Just making clear where we should stand on the issue. I do agree it makes sense that many could be Farstriders on the same position than Vereesa, but it also could be just Dalarani elves; not all the citizenry is forced to be mages or scholars, they always had a military. IMO, since the Silver Covenant is a paramilitary unit, it makes as much sense if Vereesa recruited Dalaran High Elves. Most likely is a mix of both.

Well many pro high elves just want to be a pretty blond good elf, doesn't make it a sensible argument. I have always liked High Elves, but I only really wanted them to become playable in MoP, because they became very interesting in their grief and resentment fueled self righteousness. Honestly I would have even liked if they continued to edge to the bad side to the point not even the alliance could have vouched for them. Would have been cool to see them go off the deep end.

In a franchise with dozens of prominent characters and dozens of lenses through which to view those characters (affiliation with particular player races or fraction groupings), I think it's impossible to control how players respond to those characters. For example, I see Lor'themar as a fundamentally good man who did his best in a terrible situation which inevitably came with some mistakes (mind-controlling citizenry, even if it wasn't his idea, he oversaw it). However, others, it seems, see him as a weak and spiteful man who refuses to accept help he doesn't deserve (Zul'Aman Cata) and who acted as Kael'thas' puppet. Inversely, I don't like Tyrande and Malfurion, but they are some people's favourite characters. I think all the characters I mentioned are ideally in Blizzard's eyes meant to be seen as heroic when viewing the fullness of their character journeys. But people, including myself, will latch on to certain things they may have done that affects their favourite groups in negative ways and struggle to get past that. It's an Azerothian equivalent to the old "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" adage.

I think that's a fair assessment of the SC's likely membership.

I'd love to see more Alliance corruption. But, Blizz seems to struggle with adding grey to blue. Personally, with BfA's story I would have thrust Sylvanas into the accidental anti-hero role making the Alliance the aggressors with Genn controlling Anduin, but we play the cards we are dealt.

Better yet, they can learn to control the void without being physically changed.

You never know, but I wouldn't hold your breath for Alleria-looking "void elves". Pinky, blotchy with some more natural hair colours though? Perhaps.

@Thalassian Bob and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder

Regarding the Purge of Dalaran, I still view it as an highlight of the Alliance experience, because it is one of the handful of times where the Alliance is allowed to strike back in kind to the Horde's agression, and the anger of the Silver Covenant, their hatred even, is perfectly understandable, and even justifiable.

The Sunreavers didn't just allowed the Horde to get the Divine Bell, an extremely dangerous artifact, which couldn't be stored in Dalaran in the first place because of the Horde's presence there (which they represented) and the already known affiliation to Garrosh of one of their member, who allowed Theramore's gates to be destroyed. No, the Sunreavers didn't stop there.

They also gave Garrosh the means to wipe out Theramore, which was the other largest concentration of High Elves remaining in the world. Sin'dorei may speak all they want about being the true heirs of the Quel'dorei and all that bullshit, that the Silver Covenant is full of enraged fanatics and what not. But it's them who helped Garrosh exterminate at least a half of the remaining High Elves. It's also the Horde who drove the inhabitants of Quel'Lithien Lodge to despair because of their constant raids, when they already suffered eking out a living in the Plaguelands, alone and cut offs.

The Sin'dorei as a whole and expecially the Sunreavers have a lot of Quel'dorei's blood on their hands, and it was great to make them pay, to make them feel the wrath of all those peoples whose lives had been snuffed out just so their new masters of the Horde could go on a rampage.

And don't come barging about Theramore being a viable military target and what not. Garrosh stated his goals to wipe out the Alliance on Kalimdor long before the Cataclysm. In Wolfheart, he was the one invading Ashenvale when no war had yet started, and Theramore answered to this first invasion. And no Horde leader ever came close to Jaina's actions toward peace. And yet, living in an horribel swamp, letting her own father and all his men be slaughtered by the Horde and doing her best for years to promote peace, even in the face of the horrors of the Undercity, earned her a mana-bomb in the face.

The Purge was justified, like the gunning down of those orcs sailors in the water. When your motto is "Victory or Death" you can't come crying when you lose and that the opponent give you death.

Fair enough. It may have felt like karma, but if you're going to relish in the Purge, I think it's difficult to frame it in any way other than, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.". And in most civilised societies, we've moved past that form of "justice".

Members of the Sunreavers - who were not acting as representatives of the organisation - played a part in killing hundreds or even thousands of non-combatants and in turn the Alliance, largely through the Silver Covenant, started killing non-combatants in response when they resisted expulsion from their homes and livelihoods. No one looked good in that whole affair.

[Obelisk Kai]

See now you are completely missing the point. Pay attention and don't jump to conclusions, comprehend what other people are saying:

The point is that giving VE's a HE origin NEEDS a lore explanation because it's not just an aesthetic, but a whole "race change" to pass from one to the other. The point I was bringing up is that you saying "we don't need an explanation for that" and comparing it to Wildhammer and Forest troll only would fit if Void Elves were given a HE look. Which We All Know You Disagree With.

I don't believe the Void Elves actually need further clarification that they can turn other elves into Void Elves. There has been a substantial debate about this before over Danuser's previous comments on the matter and the in game representation of Void Elves not lining up with the initial tiny group of Mage researchers who triggered the transformation. Even the presence of High Elf Wayfarers and Blood Elf scholars in Tel'rogus seems to serve no other purpose than to show the Void Elves are expanding and can have multiple origins. Now, further clarification would be welcome, but there is nothing there now that would prevent a Void Elf player arguing they had a High Elf exile origin.

Again, it's not even on the same ball park to say "this sand troll joined the Horde" and "this high elf went through a hitherto unknown voidification process to become a void elf. And even so, I fully believe we ALSO need some lore explanation why we are able to play as Farraki, since they do not a horde background, it's still bad, but not as bad as to just pretend we are able to replicate an admiteddly accidental process at will.

Yet Danuser has explained why they aren't going to do that, it is so time consuming to construct these origins that to do so would preclude them expanding customisations if each customisation had to be justified. It is up to the player to explain to themselves why their Sand Troll is now within the Horde.
Similarly, it is up to the player to explain to themselves why their Void Elf has a high elf origin. Unlike the Sand Troll, there is enough circumstantial evidence in game to support this origin. Whilst you have doubts the process could be replicated, the process seems very simple, merely bombard a being with void energy for a certain amount of time and then stop. The Void Elves themselves deployed this process during the Zuldazar assault to convert Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs.
There is enough there for a Void Elf player to create a plausible, lore consistent high elf origin. More so than the Sand Troll player has to work with.

All I know now is that we need lore explanations for HE VE's and Farraki trolls joining the Horde. And I'm fully on board with this being done through flavor or quest text -which can also apply to Forest Trolls and Wildhammer- I see degrees of necessity for all, what I don't get why are just against the idea of lore clarification on this.

Yet they aren't going to provide even that in the majority of cases. These new options are not being provided for any story rationale, they are being added for the sake of adding new options. It's up to the player to determine the meaning of their chosen appearance should they care to do so. That is the true meaning of Danuser's interview with T&E, not that everything is possible but that players have the right to interpret their own appearances however they wish.

I'll give you this is a matter of opinion to a degree -which process would be harder to replicate or the more likely results- and ultimately irrelevant because I'm not trying to justify VE's giving HE's skin tones. My point here is that the process that made VE's was an accident, so if there's any intention and further success to replicate it, that has to be addressed by the lore . What I don't get is you being against this needing explaining, I don't see the rationale behind clarifying and expanding a lore point that's notoriously contentious.

I'm not against it being explained, what I am against is this idea that it is impossible until it is explained, particularly given the considerable body of evidence showing it is possible. Rather than wait until Blizzard decides to be more explicit about it (which I think they already have been given Moorgard was directly asked where Void Elf numbers where coming from and he answered other elves are seeking them out), the assumption should be that they can expand.

[Domm530]

Can we not talk about us finnaly getting humans in the game? Not talking about those fake elwynn forest humans, but you know, the real humans? Like i realy realy want them.. please blizzzz?

[Syegfryed]

Of course she's not relevant.

When she freed Alexstasza, purged the Horde from a human city,

something who happened years ago.

battled against the Amani in Zul'Aman,

Same as elfranger#542

was there during the siege of Suramar and the fall of Gul'Dan

same as nightelfranger#125

was there during the Siege of Orgrimmar 1 and the the Siege of Orgrimmar 2

same as, well you get it by now.

Remember, she's more relevant than more of 90% of both the current Horde leadership and the blood elf one.

She is rly not, until she actually head something i will agree you, the point is, she is not relevant in years, and there is little reason for her be in the book, let alone do something.

but well lets wait the book and we can tag ourselves after we read it.

[elbleuet]

Same as elfranger#542



same as nightelfranger#125


same as, well you get it by now.




She is rly not, until she actually head something i will agree you, the point is, she is not relevant in years, and there is little reason for her be in the book, let alone do something.

but well lets wait the book and we can tag ourselves after we read it.

"She has blue eyes and she's Alliance so I don't like her so I'm stating she's not relevant"

Am I right ?

I gave you some notable deeds she did and you reject them.

something who happened years ago.

So that doesn't count by your own standards ?

She is rly not, until she actually head something i will agree you, the point is, she is not relevant in years, and there is little reason for her be in the book, let alone do something.

She already did something. See my list above. But given your animosity toward her, I guess that for you the only way for her to be """relevant""" would be to kill herself and all the Silver Covenant elves with her.

[Ardenaso]

Like for fucks sake, it's not an wild conclusion that Alleria's sister and son will show up at some point since she will be one of the main characters. It might be wrong of course, but it's probable given their relationship. Saying she "probably won't be" because we haven't already see her mentioned is just being contrarian out of spite lol. Like what is even the motivation behind it?

Blizzard forgot about Arator and Vereesa in BFA so all hope is lost for them

unless they make it so the Silver Covenant and the important High Elves only appear every other expansion

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@Thalassian Bob and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder

Regarding the Purge of Dalaran, I still view it as an highlight of the Alliance experience, because it is one of the handful of times where the Alliance is allowed to strike back in kind to the Horde's agression, and the anger of the Silver Covenant, their hatred even, is perfectly understandable, and even justifiable.

The Sunreavers didn't just allowed the Horde to get the Divine Bell, an extremely dangerous artifact, which couldn't be stored in Dalaran in the first place because of the Horde's presence there (which they represented) and the already known affiliation to Garrosh of one of their member, who allowed Theramore's gates to be destroyed. No, the Sunreavers didn't stop there.

They also gave Garrosh the means to wipe out Theramore, which was the other largest concentration of High Elves remaining in the world. Sin'dorei may speak all they want about being the true heirs of the Quel'dorei and all that bullshit, that the Silver Covenant is full of enraged fanatics and what not. But it's them who helped Garrosh exterminate at least a half of the remaining High Elves. It's also the Horde who drove the inhabitants of Quel'Lithien Lodge to despair because of their constant raids, when they already suffered eking out a living in the Plaguelands, alone and cut offs.

The Sin'dorei as a whole and expecially the Sunreavers have a lot of Quel'dorei's blood on their hands, and it was great to make them pay, to make them feel the wrath of all those peoples whose lives had been snuffed out just so their new masters of the Horde could go on a rampage.

And don't come barging about Theramore being a viable military target and what not. Garrosh stated his goals to wipe out the Alliance on Kalimdor long before the Cataclysm. In Wolfheart, he was the one invading Ashenvale when no war had yet started, and Theramore answered to this first invasion. And no Horde leader ever came close to Jaina's actions toward peace. And yet, living in an horribel swamp, letting her own father and all his men be slaughtered by the Horde and doing her best for years to promote peace, even in the face of the horrors of the Undercity, earned her a mana-bomb in the face.

The Purge was justified, like the gunning down of those orcs sailors in the water. When your motto is "Victory or Death" you can't come crying when you lose and that the opponent give you death.

at this point I would've loved to see the Blood Elves as chill "don't mess with us or you die" and the High Elves as self-righteous bastards who are like "You helped the cousin of the servant of the brother of the guard of the Horde character #4342324? I kill you today"

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So glad to see the Silver Covenant back again because that means Vereesa will be relevant again along with Alleria in Shadowlands.

Once more High elves are back in the upcoming expansion. This is great.

They do have a nice habit of showing up every other expansion

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I believe those were ghosts that appeared when you started defiling the chapel. The only living person in the chapel was Aurius, and fighting or killing him is non-canon as his WoWPedia says he dies in the fight with Baron Rivendare.

We could perhaps say that some of the Blood Elf/Draenei content that takes place in Azeroth could perhaps canonically happen before the end of Vanilla, and the Blood Knights go to the chapel before the main "adventurers" enter Stratholme and kill Rivendare with Aurius' help. Could say that the Blood Knights defiled the chapel, fought Aurius, wounded him, but the spirits of the place or the Light was so strong that it could heal/rez him for adventurers to find in Vanilla.

Wait nvm, he actually meant he didn't like how the humans were going along with the Blood Elves and he wants all the approval to themselves (of course they're like this on the Kirin Tor and now Argent Dawn)

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-snip-

also, if you want to hear something about treason - it's Aethas giving out the most glorious important high-profile national treasure and heirloom to a human faction, just to get their approval (again)

because standing up on your own as a Magister with Rommath and building each other up and basking in the glory of Felo'melorn with the fellow Blood Elves (and Nightborne) doesn't sound as good as screwing around with sugar mommy Modera

[Koryn123]

Can we not talk about us finnaly getting humans in the game? Not talking about those fake elwynn forest humans, but you know, the real humans? Like i realy realy want them.. please blizzzz?

I wouldn't mind Stromgarde humans, or Scarlet Crusade humans. Red human buildings > blue human buildings.

[Ardenaso]

I wouldn't mind Stromgarde humans, or Scarlet Crusade humans. Red human buildings > blue human buildings.

on one hand I'm trying to get Alteraci Humans on the Horde approved (see my signature)

[Syegfryed]

"She has blue eyes and she's Alliance so I don't like her so I'm stating she's not relevant"

Am I right ?

I gave you some notable deeds she did and you reject them.

you gave something from the first/second war, and some other little apparitions who were not much important trying to make her relevant now. What im sing here is a desperate tentative of making her more important she is to keep some hope going on

So that doesn't count by your own standards ?

Yes, its kinda hard to say someone is relevant now, when the only thing important was something 30 yeas ago

She already did something. See my list above. But given your animosity toward her, I guess that for you the only way for her to be """relevant""" would be to kill herself and all the Silver Covenant elves with her.

she did nothing in world of warcraft relevant, she didn't head something, she didn't push the lore forward, she just "there" as sidekick or doing nothing

Just being "there" is not doing something relevant.

[elbleuet]

you gave something from the first/second war, and some other little apparitions who were not much important trying to make her relevant now. What im sing here is a desperate tentative of making her more important she is to keep some hope going on

Second war.

She was so irrelevant that Halduron begged her to come to Zul'Aman to help him dealing with the Amani. The irony.

Yes, its kinda hard to say someone is relevant now, when the only thing important was something 30 yeas ago

See the list above.

she did nothing in world of warcraft relevant, she didn't head something, she didn't push the lore forward, she just "there" as sidekick or doing nothing

Just being "there" is not doing something relevant.

Just like all the blood elf leadership.

And she did. She headed the purge of Dalaran.

[Syegfryed]

Second war.

She was so irrelevant that Halduron begged her to come to Zul'Aman to help him dealing with the Amani. The irony.

the irony if that being retconed in chronicles, and i don't remember any begging but sure, wherever you say.

See the list above.

She being commanded by another irrelevant character, sure that shows a lot.

Just like all the blood elf leadership.

if you think she is more relevant than lorthemar alone, or the 3 elves, then we have nothing to discuss

And she did. She headed the purge of Dalaran.

pretty sure it was jaina, she was just killing the elves downstairs

[elbleuet]

the irony if that being retconed in chronicles, and i don't remember any begging but sure, wherever you say.

She being commanded by another irrelevant character, sure that shows a lot.

These are facts. The rest is your opinion.

if you think she is more relevant than lorthemar alone, or the 3 elves, then we have nothing to discuss

Vereesa has been more proactive than the 3 elves (liadrin, halduron and rommath) that's a fact.
Halduron isn't worthy of his title since he needs to ask the help of the exiled high elves to do his job.
As for Rommath, Blizzard did a pretty decent job with him.

Lor'Themar did absolutely nothing since his introduction. He's more important than Vereesa of course since he's leading an entire nation. But from a story perspective, yes Vereesa is way more relevant than him.

pretty sure it was jaina, she was just killing the elves downstairs

Yeah. Jaina defeated the Sunreavers alone. She's op

[Syegfryed]

These are facts. The rest is your opinion.

it is a fact that chronicles retconed her and the alliance in that instance

Vereesa has been more proactive than the 3 elves (liadrin, halduron and rommath) that's a fact.

I don't think you know what is a fact, cause she sure wasn't, well maybe halduron but i never claim him to be relevant anyway.

Liadrin headed the Suramar thing with blood elves and also went Argus, more than veressa did.

Lor'Themar did absolutely nothing since his introduction. He's more important than Vereesa of course since he's leading an entire nation. But from a story perspective, yes Vereesa is way more relevant than him.

Except you know, being a key plot point in MOP with Garrosh and blood elves, commanded the horde naval force in SoO with Sylvanus, again a key point in bfa in Nazjatar, as well apparition in books and novels

But sure, she is more relevant.

Yeah. Jaina defeated the Sunreavers alone. She's op

she was the head in the purge, everyone else was just subordinate of her command

[Magicon]

It's just logic tbh.

I mean there's been a whole expansion dedicated to adding races for a war effort and mechagnomes were added over them.

Then there's ion flat out saying, blood elves are high elves,

And then there's the datamined adittions to the allied race dB having everything from tuskar to vrykul but no mention at all of another elf.

And then there's the large community opposition to anymore elves being added to World of elfcraft.

I mean that is the current state of play. Do you want people to lie and give false hope? Throw out some lore reasons that ultimately don't matter at all because blizz will do what they want no matter how articulated your lore based arguments are?

You have a right to indulge in fantasy all you want but Eod you can't blame people for pointing out it is only just that. And the state of play currently indicates heavily it will remain as such for a long time yet to come.

Sadly they ain't tuskarrs, vrykuls etc, if you look at their models, it is the damn races we meet in Shadowlands the Fauns, vampires, Kyrians and Skeletons...

[elbleuet]

it is a fact that chronicles retconed her and the alliance in that instance

Retconned or not, Blizzard chose Vereesa to represent the Alliance in Zul'Aman. So she's relevant.

Liadrin headed the Suramar thing with blood elves and also went Argus, more than veressa did.

Liadrin co-leaded the blood elves in Suramar. Vereesa leaded the High elves alone in Suramar, and was also present on Argus. What's your point ?

Except you know, being a key plot point in MOP with Garrosh and blood elves, commanded the horde naval force in SoO with Sylvanus, again a key point in bfa in Nazjatar, as well apparition in books and novels

Just like Vereesa being a key plot in MOP too during the purge and then on the Isle of Thunder. She appeared in books and novels too. A whole short story was centered about her and her sisters.
Except she isn't a racial leader unlike Lor'Themar.

she was the head in the purge, everyone else was just subordinate of her command

Without Vereesa, Jaina couldn't have handled the purge and thus won against the Horde in Dalaran. So she was relevant.

[Frenchvince]

Sadly they ain't tuskarrs, vrykuls etc, if you look at their models, it is the damn races we meet in Shadowlands the Fauns, vampires, Kyrians and Skeletons...

Maybe placeholders while waiting for their new NPC models.
I have the impression that there are going to be several factions/races of the Northrend who will be there for the prepatch of the Icecrown zone.