Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ardenaso]

Discussion of moderation is not a permitted topic - if you have a question about a point of moderation, discuss it with the moderator via PM or with a global moderator.

I apologize for my rash statements

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that the point of this thread (other than consolidating all high elf talk) is to discuss ideas and possibilities. What those against the idea of playable high elves do, though, is return every now and then to repeat the same arguments that have been addressed and challenged before, as if what they're saying is a "fresh new take" or something.

Every time someone brings something new to the thread, certain anti-high-elf posters show up and repeat the same arguments as before, and so, instead of discussing the merits of whatever new information was brought, instead the "conversation" devolves back into re-addressing and re-challenging those same old arguments.

Thank you. 10 characters

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that the point of this thread (other than consolidating all high elf talk) is to discuss ideas and possibilities. What those against the idea of playable high elves do, though, is return every now and then to repeat the same arguments that have been addressed and challenged before, as if what they're saying is a "fresh new take" or something.

Every time someone brings something new to the thread, certain anti-high-elf posters show up and repeat the same arguments as before, and so, instead of discussing the merits of whatever new information was brought, instead the "conversation" devolves back into re-addressing and re-challenging those same old arguments.

Thank you. 10 characters

- - - Updated - - -

Horde kul tiran pirate,
defias human,
alterac human

I've pooled those three together on my Horde Alteraci Human Allied Race suggestion. If you haven't seen it yet, I'd like your takes and criticisms

[FlubberPuddy]

At this time, feels like best case scenario, but to be frank, I don't see it happening. I have a very different outlook on what I'd like to happen, and what we will end up getting, and even if I do think at this point less blue VE's are the closer we are gonna get, still feels relatively unlikely to me.

In short, I'm just not hopeful, which kinda sucks, but kinda used at this point, which works for me.

For me I don't see it happening while the focus is on increased customizations for the original races. Afterwards? I fully expect majority of the fans who've chosen an Allied Race as their mains to be expectant of increased customizations as well.

The little snippets we're getting of small changes to Allied Races in the datamining pretty much confirms that they're working on increased customizations for AR on the side where they can easily do it.

At that point, is when we'll see if Blizzard has any inkling of allowing some form of High Elf fantasy to be playable for Alliance players.

My personal outlook and outcome on what I'd like to happen is very different than what will most likely be coming down the line too. But gotta roll with dem punches y'know.

[elbleuet]

Both of which I have done. I have a copy of Day of the Dragon. I would be very surprised to learn of a Blood Elf upset to be called a High Elf in that book, considering it is set well before the Third War and the Scourge invasion which precipitated the renaming.
As for the Purge of Dalaran I have done the questline on both my Horde and Alliance characters. I don't recall anytime a Blood Elf objected to being called a High Elf. If you could provide the quest wherein this happens, it can be validated on wowpedia or wowhead.

I've never said that. I just said blood elves never identify themselves as High elves.
Blood elves are Horde thalassian elves, and High elves are Alliance thalassian elves.

As for this :

In most of those cases, there are literally one only a handful of them about. So handfuls of high elves, scattered across the world.

Then you say :

A Blood Elf was a boss in the Alliance version of the Battle of Dazar'alor.
A Blood Elf Paladin was tragically killed defending an aid convoy being transported to Darkshore.

2 random blood elves (one did nothing) for 2 major battles. That's incredibly huge for you. Is that what you're calling "troops" ?

But when a High elf is making some portals to let the Alliance take back it's kingdom, that's unimportant. Enough with your contradictions

Blood Elves were present during the Siege of Undercity, led by Lor'themar Theron.

2-3 priests. Less than the void elves who are less numerous than the High elves. An insignificant presence from the blood elves.

You didn't speak about the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0. Why ?

Whose purpose is merely to facilitate roleplaying and nothing else

That's your interpretation. They could have just put other high elves instead but no.

Let's go back to the facts. There are friendly blood elves under the guidance of Alleria.

[Aldo Hawk]

He saved the Blood Elf datamines till the very end, but I find it hilarious what he had to say for most of it.



Time: starts at 10:37.

Basically "The Blood Elves are getting customizations that the Alliance players have been asking for, for a very very long time" I just love how well-known this is

Then it's funny how he tries to end it with the "consolation" being that Night Elves get, in his own opinion, "Dark Ranger skins" while the Blood Elves do not. Like what? Lol!

Bellular reasoning: Hey guys it's okay you're not getting something you've asked for hella long, because Horde also aren't getting something they've asked for since a lesser amount of time! it equals out!

A 'consolation' literally branded forever in the DNA of the game is not a consolation, it's a mess, it's a travesty, it's a mistake.

Will Blizzard ever stop being so stuck up with their own franchise? Players ask for things they themselves presented as part of their own fantasy world, how can they be so out of touch with it?

And yeah, it's a typical Bellular video, hot news that will be polished in the future, but the video has to sail fast.

[Xath]

This is true, and the fact that Nightborne and Night Elves are not related, is nothing but a lie, their models are really close.

Yup it's literally just the ears changed.

[bloodykiller86]

At this time, feels like best case scenario, but to be frank, I don't see it happening. I have a very different outlook on what I'd like to happen, and what we will end up getting, and even if I do think at this point less blue VE's are the closer we are gonna get, still feels relatively unlikely to me.

In short, I'm just not hopeful, which kinda sucks, but kinda used at this point, which works for me.

- - - Updated - - -



Here starts your misunderstanding of the actual issue. The presumption that one only wants high elves because one dislikes the Horde. And as someone who plays both sides and mains horde, that's just not true.

Whether you like it or not, the ideological difference of High Elves makes them interesting to a lot of people, because that by itself is a major variation which is the appeal of an allied race.



Which is also the problem with all AR based on an already existing one. The problem is that HE are viable lorewise, but gameplay design-wise, unattainable. The fact that Blood Elves are a playable race is as immaterial than saying that we couldn't have had HMT because Tauren already were playable*, because the issue has never been that another grouping of that "race" is already playable the issue is that the HE aesthetic crosses faction lines, and that's Blizzards priority concern over any Lore; Is not a lore issue, nor is an issue the race is already playable as another group, the problem is that crosses lines.

*If High Elves were horde aligned (I know it makes no sense but follow through) different hairstyles, eye, hair color and skin tones would have made them as different as HMT from Tauren.



While I overall think the faction dichotomy hurts WoW's lore regarding races and I have wanted for a while for a game to either make races neutral or allow every race to play on an "independent" manner, I do think there are many ways if making plausible playable High Elves aesthetically different enough because the model can just look different; the playable model represents an heroic average of a group, and there are enough behavioral and lifestyles differences in High Elves to just look different -specially groups like the Silver Covenant that are accused of "mingling with lesser races and diluting their bloodline"- It would make them no different from Kul Tirans, who we can all see they just are not baseline humans but everyone in universe just says so.

- - - Updated - - -



So if Void Elves are Blood Elves, then how is it they are two playable "races" in different factions? The problem with reductive statements like yours is that they obviously don't fit the facts. Per design of VE and BE, skin and hair colors is literally all that matters, because that's the difference that makes them aesthetically distinct.

If Skin color "didn't matter", then how come Void Elves just didn't look like Alleria?

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah but to a point then we can argue that a "regular" Void Elf doesn't need the heart of a naaru to be created, and could be done so with lesser Void Entities. So would that alternate VE process lead to more Alleria looking VE's? Would that process be easier than replicating the failed transformation?

Alternative, Alleria looks like herself specifically because she ate a naaru, and the nature of their light/void cycle is what results in her distinct two forms. Entirely out of ,y ass, but plausible I think.

They are high elves but because of being corrupted by the void, they have been banned from quel thelas. so alleria being a part of the alliance, got them the right to stay with them

- - - Updated - - -

First time I'm hearing that Vereesa and her sons and the Silver Covenant and Highvale and 7th legion shieldmages are all Blood Elves. Do you have proof providing evidence for this?

Or is it baseless statements all over again?

..........where are all those elves from(besides her kids because they were born in dalaran i believe)? Quel Thelas. They have always been from Quel Thelas, the original home of all High Elves. Remember all the sisters are from Quel Thelas. Blood elves is just a name change after WC3 but Blood Elves are still High Elves lol

[FlubberPuddy]

..........where are all those elves from(besides her kids because they were born in dalaran i believe)? Quel Thelas. They have always been from Quel Thelas, the original home of all High Elves. Remember all the sisters are from Quel Thelas. Blood elves is just a name change after WC3 but Blood Elves are still High Elves lol

Sand Trolls don't originate from Darkspear Isle. What shit arguments being thrown around. Increased customizations means the 'starting city' is not a factor anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

Yup.. literally the same except, the eyebrows which are slightly different, the ears, and the eyes that are ever so slightly larger on NE's and glow different and also another color, but yup.. totes 1:1 the same. /s

Oooh oh interesting. So when similar tweaks are suggested for high elves it's "no you can't do that" but here we see it being used as enough to differentiate Nightelf from Nightborne.

Yup, keep showing the hypocrisy.

[Xath]

Yup.. literally the same except, the eyebrows which are slightly different, the ears, and the eyes that are ever so slightly larger on NE's and glow different and also another color, but yup.. totes 1:1 the same. /s

Also love how that the two models are under different lighting affects to try and further force the issue.. not disingenuous at all.

edit

Actually.. the difference in eye size might just be from the bloom affect from the eye glow, not 100% sure.

So slight eyebrow and ear differences and eye size would be enough to allow high elves?

[The Silver Covenant]

What if i wanted to specifically play a normal kul tiran human? Well too bad because playable KT humans are fat only and if i wanna play a normal human then I need to suck it up and be a SW human.

This ignores that Stormwind humans look identical to normal Kul Tiran humans. It’s a viable option. There is no viable option for Warcraft’s oldest and most enduring fans to live the adventure that WoW promised at launch.

High Elves are an Alliance race.

[Aldo Hawk]

Coming from the side that disingenuously keeps portraying two models as being the exact same thing even though it's painted differently.. you know like those Void Elves Alliance got.

Yep, keep on projecting.

It's exactly the reason why all the comments about tweaking High elves being constantly countered by antis is hypocritical, antis will never ever agree with anything remotely near something they would suggest to be happy with if that implied High elves being playable, because pride is too much of a curse for some of them.

Yes, Night elves and Nightborne are similar, it's exactly the same model with tweaks, and these tweaks can be applied to High elves, but of course no anti will be happy with that

It shows how little you and others care to understand the other side by a single bit, since suggesting changes is something that has been done to compromise the request to some degree, while on the other side what is found is categorical misunderstanding, what a surprise High elves being playable would hurt that much?

[FlubberPuddy]

Coming from the side that disingenuously keeps portraying two models as being the exact same thing even though it's painted differently.. you know like those Void Elves Alliance got.

Yep, keep on projecting.

Anti-helfers: slight tweaks to Horde night elves was enough to differentiate em.

High Elfers: would slight tweaks to Alliance high elves be enough for y'all?

Anti-helfers: No! Absolutely not! There's no WAY that can happen, you guys are just asking for the exact same model! Stop trying to take a Horde race and DUPLICATE IT.

Also, why don't you respond to Xath's post?

[Luck4]

Also love how that the two models are under different lighting affects to try and further force the issue.. not disingenuous at all.

That comparison was literally taken from the character selection screen, but you talk like the lighting was changed intentionally, lmao.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Anti-helfers: slight tweaks to Horde night elves was enough to differentiate em.

High Elfers: would slight tweaks to Alliance high elves be enough for y'all?

Anti-helfers: No! Absolutely not! There's no WAY that can happen, you guys are just asking for the exact same model! Stop trying to take a Horde race and DUPLICATE IT.

Also, why don't you respond to Xath's post?

Also there's a lot to be said about "how different are Nightborne from Night Elves" when they don't have major difference besides ear shape. Because here's the thing; NE and NB models just have one "median" body type, this does not mean all NE or NB have the same body, it's the heroic average at best, so then whe have the legit question of what actually separates NE and NB physically wise, beyond the limitations of a model?

What I mean, is that artwork of Night Elves and Nightborne is basically just purple elves, there us just not a consensus whether they have even a set of distinct features; human ethnicities have more variation in appearance, and yet Humans are all the same race, but NB and NE are "different races"

IMO it just shows how flimsy the concept of race functions in WoW, NB and NE are less different than human ethnicities within the same game. Their models are just a representation of anm average or ideal at best, and their most unique feature, the stance, is entirely behavioral. You see artwork of Night Elves and Nightborne, and they are just differently eared purple elves. That's it.

It just feels very disingenuous to presume the in game differentiation of their models means that in universe NE and NB are easily distinguishable at first glance.

Model differences do not require a "biological" differentiation, it can just be whatever makes them visually distinct (hairstyle, jewelry, and most importantly, animations/stance)

[Powerogue]

I've got to say, evaluating the potential high elf eyes option, if they just add that (it may still be death knight only, still not 100%) and the tattooes to both them and void elves (but the void ones being glow in the dark, please) I'd be sated. IDK what the general sentiment here is on if you guys would be.

[Redzonetode]

He saved the Blood Elf datamines till the very end, but I find it hilarious what he had to say for most of it.



Then it's funny how he tries to end it with the "consolation" being that Night Elves get, in his own opinion, "Dark Ranger skins" while the Blood Elves do not. Like what? Lol!

Bellular reasoning: Hey guys it's okay you're not getting something you've asked for hella long, because Horde also aren't getting something they've asked for since a lesser amount of time! it equals out!

lol you are purposely exaggerating and misrepresenting his "consolation"

[ravenmoon]

Indeed, and in that case they went ahead and exchanged elves. If faction identity was SO IMPORTANT, a Night Elf would never be on Horde and a Blood Elf would never be on Alliance. But yet Horde get night elves without a palette swap and Alliance it's 'deemed so' that the blood elves needed a palette swap. Was the most hypocritical statement of the decade.

I know right.. I'm glad they're not fooling every one.

i mean.. "if you want pale skinned blond haired elves, then the horde is waitingfor you"... but hey horde, if you want purple skinned, silver haired night elves, here you go, and to make them feel better, we'll throw the alliance another group of purple elves. you can both have purple elves now, but only hte horde has pale skinned elves.

- - - Updated - - -

But then judging by the new night elf skin tones, they'd rather give Night elves pale skin than void elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

That comparison was literally taken from the character selection screen, but you talk like the lighting was changed intentionally, lmao.

Implying malice like that is nasty as fuck, such things can only come from a stance of fundamental spiteness.

It begs the rethorical question: Is there any real intent of being mindful?

[Rhlor]

Anti-helfers: slight tweaks to Horde night elves was enough to differentiate em.

High Elfers: would slight tweaks to Alliance high elves be enough for y'all?

Anti-helfers: No! Absolutely not! There's no WAY that can happen, you guys are just asking for the exact same model! Stop trying to take a Horde race and DUPLICATE IT.

Also, why don't you respond to Xath's post?

the alliance already has the equivalent of nightborne, they are the void elves

[Manariel]

the alliance already has the equivalent of nightborne, they are the void elves

No, the Alliance equivalent of the Nightbornes are the Quel'dorei (High Elves), because they'd give us access to fair-skinned elves the same way Nightbornes give access to purple-skinned elves to the Horde.

Also, it would really be simple to tweak the High Elves model to differentiate them. There is three main ways, one being totally lore friendly as it is, the other requiring a very small retcon which would actually makes more sense than what we have now fort BE and HE.

1. Lore friendly as it is :
Keep the current High Elves skins, but change the skeleton slightly so idle postures and moves are different between BE and HE. That way, it's easy to differentiate them from VE and BE (the VE being carbon copy of the BE with a hasty paint put on them, unlike the Nightbornes who at least look superficially different at first glance).

2. Small retcon needed : the Sunwell doesn't sustain High Elves because they are too far from Quel'Thalas :
It's a retcon which justify the presence of HE pilgrims in Quel'Danil (because if they can feel the radiance of the Sunwell from the other side of the world, they have no reason to risk their lives on a deadly pilgrimage toward a nation which despise them and has allied with the Horde).

Then, it's easy to say that the High Elves have been affected by the effects of not abthing in the Sunwell's radiance for years and :
a) use their skin on a slightly tweaked Nightfallen skeleton
b)create a brand new skeleton to highlight this change

But to say that the Void Elves, who are former Blood Elves, tapes in the exact same fantasy as TBC Blood Elves (without the arrogance) are comparable to the Nightbornes, who are vastly different from their former Kaldorei brethren in term of fantasy (them being the ultra-arcane dependent elves, who refuses to change their ways even after they have broke the world against Kaldorei who have chosen to build a brand new civilization which shuns arcane because it destroyed the world) is a little strange to me.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yeah but to a point then we can argue that a "regular" Void Elf doesn't need the heart of a naaru to be created, and could be done so with lesser Void Entities. So would that alternate VE process lead to more Alleria looking VE's? Would that process be easier than replicating the failed transformation?

Alternative, Alleria looks like herself specifically because she ate a naaru, and the nature of their light/void cycle is what results in her distinct two forms. Entirely out of ,y ass, but plausible I think.

You seem to have the wrong end of the stick here. Lore is not the true reason Void Elves are purple, nor are 'lesser void entities' required to produce an Alleria like transformation (on a side note, Alleria consumed several lesser void entities while working up to consuming the heart of the dark naaru, and while they empowered her they didn't transform her. Had they transformed her, the Dark Naaru would have been irrelevant). If an Alleria like transformation was the goal they could simply hand wave it away as how they do things now.

The lore reason WHY Alliera is a different kind of Void Elf in lore is because she ate a dark naaru heart. But the true reason Void Elves are purple is to evoke their void theme and contrast them with them human range skin tones of the Blood Elves. It is to justify their addition as an Allied race in the first place, for the same reason the Lightforged Draenei have to be bone white/gray to contrast with the blues tones of the Draenei. It's an easy differentiator.

Headcanoning explanations as to how Void Elves COULD be different is pointless because it doesn't deal with the real reason they got the skin change in the first place. And if the skin tone change wasn't a factor, they'd never have invented Void Elves and just gone with the exiles. Something had to be different. If it wasn't the skin tone it would have been something else you would have found vexatious.

- - - Updated - - -

No. I'm saying they're not "nearly dead/nearly extinct" because they aren't.

Yes, they are. You are back to stating they aren't nearly dead again when the only evidence you have offered against it is 'they can retcon it', which is not an argument, it's a prayer. They ARE nearly dead.

Again, you make it clear that your only intention is to muddle the conversation with word-play. Every time someone hears "blood elves" they know exactly what the other people are talking about: the Horde-aligned thalassian elves. And when someone hears "high elf" they know exactly what the other people are talking about, especially in this thread: the Alliance-aligned thalassian elves.

That 'word play' is a direct quote from the game director. And if you think he is biased, Chris Metzen was fairly interchangeable with the distinction between Blood Elves and High Elves himself.

You, on the other hand, insist on muddling the terms because, without calling the groups for how they are presented in the game (high elf = Alliance; blood elf = Horde; thalassian elf = high elf + blood elf), many of your arguments have no leg to stand on.

It's a good thing then that when I say Blood Elves are High Elves I am, in many cases, quoting the creators of the game and the lore.

Yeah, once again you make it clear your only intention is to muddle the conversation with word-play.

Was that the intent of Ion Hazzikostas and Chris Metzen as well or are you simply being dismissive of a truism you still don't want to accept after all these years?

False. Blood elves are Horde-aligned thalassian elves, who have different policies and goals than the high elves, who are Alliance-aligned. We don't want blood elves, we want high elves.

The only distinction you can cite here is the political division between the vast majority of the population and the handful of exiles, who for the most part don't even live among the Alliance, they live in neutral Dalaran. Blood Elves are high elves, the high elf option is in game. If you can't stomach the Horde, there is an Alliance aligned variant of High Elves, a different flavour of High Elf, in the Void Elves who are so loyal to the Alliance they are blue in colour.

- - - Updated - - -

You didn't get a variant you got night elves without a palette swap. I get that you are a horde player but stop lying and just admit blizz favors the horde.

That is actually a lie. Nightborne have a highly limited skin tone range, and hair tone range, as Blizzard clearly wants to keep the the Nightborne within a very specific aesthetic. They remind me of the Everquest Dark Elves, who were also similarly limited.

Night Elves on the other hand have a far more expansive, warm palette set and a far wider selection of hair colours that is more evocative of their wood elf origin. Some Night Elves are a very soft pink, very close to a fair human range skin tone. However, the deep, saturated blues of the Nightborne are beyond them.

Nightborne ears are also upswept rather than backswept, and the male musculature is considerably degraded compared to the Night Elf male. All minor changes to be sure, but enough to differentiate them from Night Elves and on par with the changes made to differentiate Void Elves from Blood/High Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

Why should they go to the horde they belong to void elves who are already on the alliance.

Eye colour is really a matter for uncorrupted thalassian elves, due to their trait of their eyes reflecting the predominant magical ambience they are exposed to.

The Void Elves, who have taken the void into their essence, are locked to colours that evoke the Void. These may include dark purples, blacks and shades of blue.

The Blood Elves on the other hand are dominated by three different types of magic. There is the fading fel ambience, which may persist as a green eye colour for a time (certainly the duration of WoW). There is the gold, due to their connection to the Sunwell, because gold evokes the holy light, and the Sunwell is partly a font of holy energy. But the Sunwell is also a font of arcane energy, which usually manifests itself as blue and pink-purple. The Sunwell used to be an entirely arcane energy source and that is where blue eyes came from in the first place. Thus is a connection to the Sunwell is allowing the more light devoted members of the Blood Elves to manifest golden eyes, it is equally logical that some Blood Elves who deal more with the arcane would now manifest blue eyes again. Or, as in the case of Lanesh the blue eyed Blood Elf, they never lost them.

- - - Updated - - -

I've never said that. I just said blood elves never identify themselves as High elves.
Blood elves are Horde thalassian elves, and High elves are Alliance thalassian elves.

As for this :



Then you say :




2 random blood elves (one did nothing) for 2 major battles. That's incredibly huge for you. Is that what you're calling "troops" ?

But when a High elf is making some portals to let the Alliance take back it's kingdom, that's unimportant. Enough with your contradictions



2-3 priests. Less than the void elves who are less numerous than the High elves. An insignificant presence from the blood elves.

You didn't speak about the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0. Why ?



That's your interpretation. They could have just put other high elves instead but no.

Let's go back to the facts. There are friendly blood elves under the guidance of Alleria.

The problem with your counterpoint is that you hold Blood Elves and the exiles to the same standard. I certainly don't. Whereas Blood Elves have been compared to Gnomes in terms of their population struggle, the exiles were defined as being way beyond that point.

Blood Elves are a playable Horde race. The exiles are not. Blood Elves are a major part of the Horde. The exiles are not a major part of the Alliance. Blood Elf participation in the Fourth War is a canonical given, particularly given Lor'Themar's comments AND presence in Nazjatar in 8.2.

Basically, I don't need to justify Blood Elf participation in the war. It happened. They are a core Horde race. It is up to those who argue the exiles are a 'strong' and 'important' part of the Alliance to justify their absence from the Fourth War. The obvious explanation, there are too few of them about and those who were about were bound by Dalaran's neutrality and so sat on their hands, rankles because it undermines the headcanon of the exiles being a strong and important part of the Alliance.

They aren't. UNLESS you accept the Void Elves as a high elf variant...in which case yes, there was plentiful alliance variant high elf participation in the fourth war. Something to be proud of?