Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ardenaso]

They didn't understand what the Naaru was and many blood elves did not approve of what was going on.
IIRC, they only burned one church and it is canonly still standing.
We have no idea how they supported the bombing of Theramore, we know some did, only the siege.
Did they do the same thing that Arthas did? I fail to see the scourged land leading up to Teldrissil. They were assuming they were going to capture the city, not raze it?

Don't assume everything the player means that they supported it.

Yes. Even Lorash can be considered as an isolated case himself

[elbleuet]

They didn't understand what the Naaru was and many blood elves did not approve of what was going on.
IIRC, they only burned one church and it is canonly still standing.
We have no idea how they supported the bombing of Theramore, we know some did, only the siege.
Did they do the same thing that Arthas did? I fail to see the scourged land leading up to Teldrissil. They were assuming they were going to capture the city, not raze it?

Don't assume everything the player means that they supported it.

The blood elves are still in the Horde after Garrosh destroyed Theramore, Sylvanas comitted genocide in Gilneas and later in Teldrassil whereas the modern Alliance did nothing to them. One of its leader even reignited their sacred Sunwell.

Doesn't mean that they should be in the Alliance either. But the blood elves are Warcraft's worst hypocrites.

[Ielenia]

That 'word play' is a direct quote from the game director. And if you think he is biased, Chris Metzen was fairly interchangeable with the distinction between Blood Elves and High Elves himself.

Whatever the director said or didn't say is irrelevant to the discussion on this thread. The game makes a clear distinction between "high elves" and "blood elves" in the form of separate groups in separate factions with separate names. The lore also already has a name that encompasses both high elves and blood elves: "thalassian elves".

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elven exiles from Silvermoon, aligned with the Alliance, and not the thalassian elves currently aligned with the Horde.

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elves that the game and lore themselves make a clear distinction from their Horde cousins.

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elves currently aligned with the Alliance who are not currently playable.

The context of such is beyond clear to everyone who lays eyes on this thread, because I honestly doubt anyone here lacks the intellectual capacity to understand that. Which is why I am accusing you of being dishonest and trying to "muddle the conversation" with word-play. Because I know you're smart enough to understand the context, and yet you willingly continue to engage in the word-play game to derail the conversation away from whatever new information was brought up.

[FlubberPuddy]

@Ielenia

To back up what you're saying even more. When Blood Elves skin colors/customizations were datamined there were entirely separate and sanctioned threads created for those to be discussed. Threads about lore focused on Blood Elves are separated. Etc etc.

Because everyone and their mothers knows this 'High Elf Discussion thread' is about those High Elves you've clearly outlined. Not the Blood Elves. Otherwise every piece of news for Blood Elves would be merged into this thread.

Trying to keep muddling the conversation like that at this point is pretty much akin to trolling in my book.

[elbleuet]

Whatever the director said or didn't say is irrelevant to the discussion on this thread. The game makes a clear distinction between "high elves" and "blood elves" in the form of separate groups in separate factions with separate names. The lore also already has a name that encompasses both high elves and blood elves: "thalassian elves".

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elven exiles from Silvermoon, aligned with the Alliance, and not the thalassian elves currently aligned with the Horde.

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elves that the game and lore themselves make a clear distinction from their Horde cousins.

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elves currently aligned with the Alliance who are not currently playable.

The context of such is beyond clear to everyone who lays eyes on this thread, because I honestly doubt anyone here lacks the intellectual capacity to understand that. Which is why I am accusing you of being dishonest and trying to "muddle the conversation" with word-play. Because I know you're smart enough to understand the context, and yet you willingly continue to engage in the word-play game to derail the conversation away from whatever new information was brought up.

Exactly. But Obelisk Kai is smart. He knows this perfectly well. Back on the thread. I hope this week will bring us some new costumisation options for the void elves

[Darththeo]

The blood elves are still in the Horde after Garrosh destroyed Theramore, Sylvanas comitted genocide in Gilneas and later in Teldrassil whereas the modern Alliance did nothing to them. One of its leader even reignited their sacred Sunwell.

Doesn't mean that they should be in the Alliance either. But the blood elves are Warcraft's worst hypocrites.

After the bombing of Theramore, Lor'themar at some point starting working with Varian on the Blood Elves leaving the Horde. We do not know when or how those talks began. They stayed Horde because an Alliance aligned character killed and drove out Blood Elves from Dalaran.

Sylvanas' razing Teldrassil put the Blood Elves in a position where they would have to fight the Alliance OR fight the Alliance AND the Horde ... you can't blame them for choose the option that doesn't limit their allies. And Sylvanas was ordered to do what she needed to do by Garrosh, she did add her own flair so to speak, but it is easy to explain that Blood Elves may put that genocide at the feet of Garrosh and not Sylvanas (before BfA).

And would the Alliance understand anything of the Blood Elves? Also, the Blood Elves are anything but hypocrites. Lor'themar is very clear on his stance. The survival of the Blood elves above all else. Above alliances, above blood, etc ... The Blood Elves and Silvermoon will endure by any means necessary, you can't call someone a hypocrite when all their actions fall 100% in line with what they stand for.

[AthranThom]

I think the hypocrisy is evident by the fact that they are perfectly cool with doing to other peoples what happened to them.

Yes Garosh destroying Theramore is not so much a sign of it, but their participation(as well as the participation of all other horde races) in the destruction of Teldrasil but more importantly how late they turned against Sylvanas(again same goes for other horde races), is very telling.

As for Lor'Themar yes he is probably one of the less hypocritical ones and more pragmatic but the same cannot be said for the rest of the race.

Would the Alliance understand the Blood Elves? Are you kidding me. Pretty much every other race both Horde and Alliance have gone through a catastrophic event within the last 60 years of lore. There is nothing unique about the Blood Elves being attacked by the Scourge and having to adapt to their new reality. Not anymore at least

[FossilFree]

Just give the High Elves a new model! I vote for this one:

[FlubberPuddy]

Just give the High Elves a new model! I vote for this one:

Would love that. And High Elf antagonizers can't say shit about it (best part)

[Aldo Hawk]

snip

Saying that the image was manipulated into having a certain degree of forced differentiation for no more reason than to cause unrest is malicious, sorry for pointing out reality.

Maybe try to cleanse that 'argumentative assery' that you display on your signature and attitude, it does no good. It really shows you think you are smarter than everyone else that doesn't agree with you.

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Whatever the director said or didn't say is irrelevant to the discussion on this thread. The game makes a clear distinction between "high elves" and "blood elves" in the form of separate groups in separate factions with separate names. The lore also already has a name that encompasses both high elves and blood elves: "thalassian elves".

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elven exiles from Silvermoon, aligned with the Alliance, and not the thalassian elves currently aligned with the Horde.

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elves that the game and lore themselves make a clear distinction from their Horde cousins.

When we say "high elves" in this thread, we are talking about the group of thalassian elves currently aligned with the Alliance who are not currently playable.

The context of such is beyond clear to everyone who lays eyes on this thread, because I honestly doubt anyone here lacks the intellectual capacity to understand that. Which is why I am accusing you of being dishonest and trying to "muddle the conversation" with word-play. Because I know you're smart enough to understand the context, and yet you willingly continue to engage in the word-play game to derail the conversation away from whatever new information was brought up.

Who the hell needs such level of clarification on a constant basis?

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@Ielenia

To back up what you're saying even more. When Blood Elves skin colors/customizations were datamined there were entirely separate and sanctioned threads created for those to be discussed. Threads about lore focused on Blood Elves are separated. Etc etc.

Because everyone and their mothers knows this 'High Elf Discussion thread' is about those High Elves you've clearly outlined. Not the Blood Elves. Otherwise every piece of news for Blood Elves would be merged into this thread.

Trying to keep muddling the conversation like that at this point is pretty much akin to trolling in my book.

Yeah, pretty much.

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BFA made me lose any interest I had in playing Horde. I care too much about the lore that I wouldnt enjoy playing a self righteous Blood Elf paladin with gallons of innocent blood on their hands. Torturing a Naaru, burning down churches and hospitals, bombing Theramore, a city with one of the highest High Elf populations, and Teldrassil. That last one is a doozy because they happily did to the Night Elves what Arthas did to them. Help an undead warlord wipe out an elven city and raise their fallen defenders as undead sent to kill their living survivors.

All of that is specifically Blood Elf history, and cant be erased with some eye color changes. Even if they claim to be holy rollers now. Or worse, claim to be High Elves again. (Which they wont, because their recent heirloom gear quest reminds everyone that they have renounced that name.)

The Horde was tricked into conquering Dark Shore and then Sylvanas decided at the last moment to burn down the dang tree, just right after she told everyone to jump into ships to enter the city through the sea.

It was not the initial plan.

[Ielenia]

Who the hell needs such level of clarification on a constant basis?

Trust me when I say this: I honestly wish nobody needed this level of clarification. But apparently some people do.

[Strippling]

He saved the Blood Elf datamines till the very end, but I find it hilarious what he had to say for most of it.



Time: starts at 10:37.

Basically "The Blood Elves are getting customizations that the Alliance players have been asking for, for a very very long time" I just love how well-known this is

Then it's funny how he tries to end it with the "consolation" being that Night Elves get, in his own opinion, "Dark Ranger skins" while the Blood Elves do not. Like what? Lol!

Bellular reasoning: Hey guys it's okay you're not getting something you've asked for hella long, because Horde also aren't getting something they've asked for since a lesser amount of time! it equals out!

You happily post and support videos about high elves from Taliesin (arguably an alliance biased content creator) but dismiss a video about high elves from Bellular (arguably a Horde biased content creator, though he is definitely more impartial to things than Taliesin).

Which is it, content creators view on the HE debate matters or not?

[FlubberPuddy]

You happily post and support videos about high elves from Taliesin (arguably an alliance biased content creator) but dismiss a video about high elves from Bellular (arguably a Horde biased content creator, though he is definitely more impartial to things than Taliesin).

Which is it, content creators view on the HE debate matters or not?

Another shit attempt at making an argument. Please try harder.

He doesn't even defend it lol, doesn't even say that "Blood Elves were always meant to have these options". He instead acknowledges it as the Horde are getting something that Alliance players have been asking for a long while lol.

How am I dismissing anything? I am pointing out plainly what Bellular himself is saying.

[Rhlor]

Yes. Even Lorash can be considered as an isolated case himself

Lorash blamed Malfurion for his father's death when they were going cold and hungry when they reached Lordaeron.

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He saved the Blood Elf datamines till the very end, but I find it hilarious what he had to say for most of it.



Time: starts at 10:37.

Basically "The Blood Elves are getting customizations that the Alliance players have been asking for, for a very very long time" I just love how well-known this is

Then it's funny how he tries to end it with the "consolation" being that Night Elves get, in his own opinion, "Dark Ranger skins" while the Blood Elves do not. Like what? Lol!

Bellular reasoning: Hey guys it's okay you're not getting something you've asked for hella long, because Horde also aren't getting something they've asked for since a lesser amount of time! it equals out!

blood players are asking for blue eyes for years! some people are only concerned with the alliance and never talk about blood elf players calling for blue eyes since sunwell was restored.

[Strippling]

2 random blood elves (one did nothing) for 2 major battles. That's incredibly huge for you. Is that what you're calling "troops" ?

But when a High elf is making some portals to let the Alliance take back it's kingdom, that's unimportant. Enough with your contradictions



2-3 priests. Less than the void elves who are less numerous than the High elves. An insignificant presence from the blood elves.

You didn't speak about the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0. Why ?

We have many blood elves actively helping the Horde in the war campaign (alongside the nightborne). Blood elves in Nazjatar. Blood elves participating in the war of thorns and battle for Lordaeron. Blood elf sunreaver loyalists keeping an eye on Baine in prison. Blood elves in the arathi warfront. Blood elf portal keepers. Etc...

There is a good presence from the blood elves throughout this expansion. You;re being disingenuous.

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Anti-helfers: slight tweaks to Horde night elves was enough to differentiate em.

High Elfers: would slight tweaks to Alliance high elves be enough for y'all?

Anti-helfers: No! Absolutely not! There's no WAY that can happen, you guys are just asking for the exact same model! Stop trying to take a Horde race and DUPLICATE IT.

Also, why don't you respond to Xath's post?

Void elves were an equal exchange for nightborne.

Horde and Alliance swapped their elf models, with each new elf receiving a level of modification to differentiate them from their parent race.

Tic for tac. Ying and yang. They were a trade. Your argument is apples to oranges mate.

Alliance high elves goes beyond the equal trade that was nightborne and void elves.

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Well, as wildhammers and other troll races are being added to bronzebeards and darkspears, i guess the new blizzard pattern is to crumble subraces in the existing playable races. I would prefer that the silver covenant had their own race, but if they hammer them into the void elves with untainted hair and skin, i wouldnt mind, as it already happened with wildhammers and others.

Untainted hair and skin on a void elf would literally be a blood elf. How is that fair to the Horde? You would literally be giving an exact replica of a core horde race to the Alliance.

[FossilFree]

Would love that. And High Elf antagonizers can't say shit about it (best part)

Very true! Plus, we haven't been to the Dragon Isles yet, who knows what possible undiscovered civilization could be hiding there? Kind of like Suramar in the Broken Isles.

Also, every other dragon taking mortal form has taken the form of a group that exists somewhere. Generally they pick humans, high elves, and half-elves. But the one Nozdormu chose was quite unique. This implies that there is a group out there somewhere that looks like him.

Maybe some of the Highborne that left with Sunstrider to start anew in the Eastern Kingdoms actually stopped halfway along the journey, kind of like the Nandor of Tolkien. And this group never lived in Quel'thalas or absorbed the energies of the Sunwell, so they are intermediate in form between night elves and high elves. Later on, Nozdormu made contact with them and took their form.

[Strippling]

Just make the portals blue and give an option to disable the voidform from the proc passive. There, you can now RP your void elf as a high elf.

In other words, make the void elf no longer a void elf.

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Would love that. And High Elf antagonizers can't say shit about it (best part)

I can. It's ugly. Lol.

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Another shit attempt at making an argument. Please try harder.

He doesn't even defend it lol, doesn't even say that "Blood Elves were always meant to have these options". He instead acknowledges it as the Horde are getting something that Alliance players have been asking for a long while lol.

How am I dismissing anything? I am pointing out plainly what Bellular himself is saying.

Your rude tone is noted.

Back to the debate though, he notes that Alliance have requested it but he doesn't defend their request. Just because its been requested does not make the request reasonable. It never was and still isn't a reasonable request in my opinion, and clearly in the opinion of the WoW devs.

[FlubberPuddy]

blood players are asking for blue eyes for years! some people are only concerned with the alliance and never talk about blood elf players calling for blue eyes since sunwell was restored.

If it's as comparable how come Bellular didn't even mention it? Instead he acknowledges what the Alliance players have been asking for.

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Void elves were an equal exchange for nightborne.

Horde and Alliance swapped their elf models, with each new elf receiving a level of modification to differentiate them from their parent race.

Tic for tac. Ying and yang. They were a trade. Your argument is apples to oranges mate.

Alliance high elves goes beyond the equal trade that was nightborne and void elves.

If they were an equal exchange you'd have all the HE antagonists not be here, and you've had all the HE agitating why are Nightborne there on Horde. That Nightborne are 'destroying faction identity, a pillar of the game.'

But they're not. And Blizzard even said both the Horde and the Alliance wanted to get Nightborne as a playable race. Re-read that. The Horde wanted Nightborne. Looks like Horde doesn't care about a 'pillar of the game' when it benefits them.

And Blizzard doesn't seem to care either when it goes directly against what they were trying to tout as 'a pillar of the game.' Which is why that statement by Ion has never been regurgitated by any Blizzard employee since that April Q&A. They knew how shoddy it was.

Instead we have Afrasiabi going 'yeah it's possible high elf fantasy comes through Void Elf customization'.

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Back to the debate though, he notes that Alliance have requested it but he doesn't defend their request. Just because its been requested does not make the request reasonable. It never was and still isn't a reasonable request in my opinion, and clearly in the opinion of the WoW devs.

I see you dodged my question. You state I'm dismissing Bellular and I pointed out I'm stating plainly what he said. So how am I dismissing anything?

[Strippling]

It's exactly the reason why all the comments about tweaking High elves being constantly countered by antis is hypocritical, antis will never ever agree with anything remotely near something they would suggest to be happy with if that implied High elves being playable, because pride is too much of a curse for some of them.

That's a lie.

I've agreed to the following options in the past (and other "anti's" also):

- half elf AR: this option would offer a unique aesthetic and thematic from blood elves (which high elves don't) and would be supported by the story, given Elisande pointed out how the alliance aligned high elf exiles were diluting themselves with the "lesser" races (ie. humans). Note that this option is for a half-elf AR option, not a half-elf AR with "full elf" customization options. No, the AR entirely would be half elf aesthetics only so as to maintain physical distinctions.

- SC becoming void elves: this would allow void elf players to RP their void elf as an ex-SC. That way they get the elves "they've always wanted". I maintain my position though that no "high elf customizations" should be given to void elves though, as this will tear away any aesthetical distinction between void elves and blood elves, and would detract from the thematic of the void elves. The story would allow players to RP their void elf as coming from the SC, but they'd maintain their void aesthetic and thematic to prevent blurring of faction lines.

Both the above options are reasonable and allow high elfers to play the elves that have "always been with the alliance", though offering sufficient differences so as to not impede on the aesthetic, thematic and story of the blood elves. The response I generally get from pro's though is "that's not a compromise", which only comes across as "that's not the pretty light skinned elf we want" to me. You're either wanting alliance high elves for the lore or not, though it seems a majority of pro's seem to care more about the aesthetic (to me at least that's how it comes across) and are happy to butcher void elf thematic if it means getting their coveted aesthetic.

High elves being playable would hurt that much?

Yes. Because high elves are an already playable race on the Horde and making them playable on the Alliance would make this core playable Horde race de-facto neutral.. which is extremely unreasonable.

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If they were an equal exchange you'd have all the HE antagonists not be here, and you've had all the HE agitating why are Nightborne there on Horde. That Nightborne are 'destroying faction identity, a pillar of the game.'

But they're not. And Blizzard even said both the Horde and the Alliance wanted to get Nightborne as a playable race. Re-read that. The Horde wanted Nightborne. Looks like Horde doesn't care about a 'pillar of the game' when it benefits them.

That's your opinion.

What are the facts though:
- Horde got an AR of the Alliance elf race while Alliance got an AR of the Horde elf race = equivalent trade
- Both elf ARs were changed slightly aesthetically from their parent race = equivalent trade
- Both elf ARs were made playable at the same time = equivalent trade
- One AR undergoing a physical transformation in a short period of time to offer thematic distinction to their parent AR, and the other undergoing a long term physical transformation (over 10000 years) to offer a thematic distinction to their parent AR. Both transformed/evolved from their parent race = equivalent trade

The facts show us it was an equal trade. An elf for an elf, both of which received aesthetical changes to offer some level of differentiation from their parent race and both being "transformed" from their parent race with differing thematics to their parent race. Alliance aligned high elf exiles do not offer aesthetical or thematical distinctions from blood elves.

Facts you like to ignore though:
- void elves have more customization options than nightborne
- void elves are more popular than nightborne
- void elf racials are objectively better than nightborne racials

And Blizzard doesn't seem to care either when it goes directly against what they were trying to tout as 'a pillar of the game.' Which is why that statement by Ion has never been regurgitated by any Blizzard employee since that April Q&A. They knew how shoddy it was.

Have you got an official quote from a WoW dev stating this?

[FlubberPuddy]

What are the facts though:
- Horde got an AR of the Alliance elf race while Alliance got an AR of the Horde elf race = equivalent trade
- Both elf ARs were changed slightly aesthetically from their parent race = equivalent trade
- Both elf ARs were made playable at the same time = equivalent trade
- One AR undergoing a physical transformation in a short period of time to offer thematic distinction to their parent AR, and the other undergoing a long term physical transformation (over 10000 years) to offer a thematic distinction to their parent AR. Both transformed/evolved from their parent race = equivalent trade

The facts show us it was an equal trade. An elf for an elf, both of which received aesthetical changes to offer some level of differentiation from their parent race and both being "transformed" from their parent race with differing thematics to their parent race. Alliance aligned high elf exiles do not offer aesthetical or thematical distinctions from blood elves.

Facts you like to ignore though:
- void elves have more customization options than nightborne
- void elves are more popular than nightborne
- void elf racials are objectively better than nightborne racials

Hey dude I got some words for you.

That's your opinion.

Oh wait, looks like you already said them yourself ^ .

Have you got an official quote from a WoW dev stating this?

Afrasiabi from his Lost Codex interview when asked about High Elf customization coming to Void Elf. Note Afrasiabi doesn't regurgitate "if you want to play a High Elf go roll a Blood Elf" nor any semblance of Ion's Q&A statement. He doesn't even mention Blood Elves at all regarding High Elf fantasy.

And if it was a statement they were meant to regurgitate it would've been like at the Blizzcon 2019 where when multiple different WoW devs were asked about cross-faction they all stated almost word for word the exact same statements on that not happening.

No point to speaking on these points anymore as you're just continually looking for circular discussion and again dodging my questions. No reason to engage with someone who's not looking to engage properly with yourself.