Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

Oh really ? I'm pretty much aware of it, since I was the first to speak about them in August 18.

Void elves' eyes are not really blue. Not as blue as the eyes we're getting with the Night elves and the Void elves

So you were speaking about them, huh. I assume you are referring to that leak back in Legion about void elves and lightforged draenei. It's been too long.

[FlubberPuddy]

You are making a whole heap of assumptions and subjective interpretations as always. By Ion's own words from the interview you love to quote, among the differences that very much do exist between Blood Elves and High Elves a big one is "in terms of their relationship to magic in the Sunwell". While some of the High Elves still make pilgrimages, they're all cut off from it more than the Blood Elves are who can bask in it's energies as much as they like (probably leading to some of them now having gained yellow eyes), whereas others like the elves of Quel'danil have sworn off magic altogether, which might mean they have cut themselves off from the Sunwell or at least somehow limit the effect it would have on them, leaving them unchanged (the Elves of Quil'lithien had a similar mindset if I understand it correctly, though now all but a few turned wretched or dead, but at least 3 survivors are shown in game). Regardless of how one interprets those facts, there's clearly SOME difference between the groups as far as the Sunwell's magic is concerned (as per Ion's words and in-game sources etc), so to just assume they'd be affected the same isn't a logical assumption to make.

(not gonna try to argue against the lack of logic on the first part, but hey, keep telling yourself that ^^)

Yes you're right. Even back then Ion did mention there's a difference in relationship to the Sunwell between Blood Elves and High Elves. Looks like we see what that difference is.

High Elves aren't reliant on the Sunwell the same way Blood Elves worship it, and this difference is shown visually through High Elven blue eyes and Blood Elves being cut off from those options.

[Obelisk Kai]

The same thing occurred with us hearing about dark skin on Blood Elves. It was from a Twitter post where it said "I heard from a friend on the floor that dark skin Blood Elves are coming" and while it may be datamining still, that appears to have been true.

So what's your point here?

That the dark skin thing was corroborated by multiple races with human range tones getting dark skin options and wasn't just sourced from one random guy on twitter. Dwarves were depicted with those tones in the slides. Besides, that was ultimately verifialbe via the alpha

Like I said, they would never let High Elves get in the way of freshly released Void Elves - the focus was 'hey look at these guys we just came out with'.

As I recall, and continuously remind you, you said that about Ion after he said Blood Elves are High Elves and High Elves are playable on the Horde. Your basic premise is that he was lying. Funny then how quick you are to believe what he said tonight because it was what you wanted to hear. That IS a first class hypocrisy.
Still, the theory remains ridiculous. Nothing that was said tonight materially changes the chances of a distinct high elf allied race i.e. still practically non existant.

And the focus atm now is on the traditional races as Ion said. But he also said character customization isn't ever going to end and is an ongoing process as they want people to have lots of different options to express themselves.

And while it may not be on their priority list right now, High Elf request is going to stay the most stark request until it's granted. It really is just a matter of time now

Yeah, again, you keep saying that but there seems to be a level of cognitive dissonance going on. Tonight proved popularity doesn't matter, lore does. You are unable to reconcile the denial of a popular request for blue eyes on Blood Elves for reasons of lore with your own request for high elf skin tones. Somehow one being denied for reasons of lore despite their popularity makes sense, yet the other which is far more controversial is still possible because of it's popularity.

That is doublethink. The ability to simultaneously hold two ideas at once despite them being mutually contradictory. A principle has been established. The popularity of a request is meaningless. What matters is the lore. If what you want goes against what they deem to be lore, they won't do it. If it involves them having to make up new lore to justify a choice, they won't do it. That is what happened to blue eyes.

It is what will almost certainly happen to your request for the skin tones on Void Elves. They will not write new lore to justify high elf like skin tones on Void Elves. Void Elves will get new options, but remain in their niche. As they should.

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Blizzard never stated that Elven eyes change color based on what magic they use as well, but people took a comment on fel eyes for Blood Elves and extrapolated it to come up with headcanon reasoning on why Blood Elves should have blue/purple/red/orange etc you name it eye color. Ion shut all that headcanon down with his comment today.

So excuse me if I exercise the same headcanoning atm, it's not a crime!

It was a logical extrapolation that came to a logical conclusion. It didn't start with a conclusion and headcanon excuses as to why that conclusion should come to pass. Important distinction.

[Varodoc]

They dont even need to write new lore to justify pink skin tones for void elves, case in point dark troll customization options for darkspears (dark trolls are basically extinct).

Even if they needed to write new lore, they already established that the void elves have endless potential in void research by virtue of living in a dimension filled with void knowledge.

Furthermore, Alleria Windrunner, the leader of the void elves, is a void elf who can maintain a balance between a fair-skinned elf form and a void elf form, and thus giving them pink-colored skin options would not contradict their niche at all.

[Obelisk Kai]

You are making a whole heap of assumptions and subjective interpretations as always. By Ion's own words from the interview you love to quote, among the differences that very much do exist between Blood Elves and High Elves a big one is "in terms of their relationship to magic in the Sunwell". While some of the High Elves still make pilgrimages, they're all cut off from it more than the Blood Elves are who can bask in it's energies as much as they like (probably leading to some of them now having gained yellow eyes), whereas others like the elves of Quel'danil have sworn off magic altogether, which might mean they have cut themselves off from the Sunwell or at least somehow limit the effect it would have on them, leaving them unchanged (the Elves of Quil'lithien had a similar mindset if I understand it correctly, though now all but a few turned wretched or dead, but at least 3 survivors are shown in game). Regardless of how one interprets those facts, there's clearly SOME difference between the groups as far as the Sunwell's magic is concerned (as per Ion's words and in-game sources etc), so to just assume they'd be affected the same isn't a logical assumption to make.

(not gonna try to argue against the lack of logic on the first part, but hey, keep telling yourself that ^^)

The line '"in terms of their relationship to magic in the Sunwell' was among the few minor differences he did acknoweldge, the cumulative point of which was to say those minor differences were irrelevant to the overall point that Blood Elves are High Elves. The nature of the Sunwell is well documented, it is a force that transcends time, space and dimensions and reaches any thalassian elf to sustain their addiction. High Elves are still bound to the Sunwell, as evidenced by them feeling the restored connection and making pilgrimages.

There is no canon evidence for the Quel'Danil elves having forsworn magic. That was mentioned in the manga. The same manga also said Sylvanas could raise undead herself long before she met the Val'kyr. There is no evidence the Quel'Danil elves have made this vow in the canon universe. Besides, plenty of elves don't use magic but they still need to feed on it to survive.

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They dont even need to write new lore to justify pink skin tones for void elves, case in point dark troll customization options for darkspears (dark trolls are basically extinct).

Even if they needed to write new lore, they already established that the void elves have endless potential in void research by virtue of living in a dimension filled with void knowledge.

Yes, they do, as the by-product of the transformation is the new skin tones. The other troll tribes are fundamentally trolls, no different from the Darkspear biologically, just different in terms of tribe.

And let's not forget that the void elf skin tones are not an accident. They are what was used to justify Void Elves as an allied race once High Elves were rejected.

The principle is clear. They will not bow to what is perceived as a popular demand if it contravenes lore. High Elf like skin tones on Void Elves does that. They will not write new lore to justify a change. High Elf like skin tones on Void Elves does that.

And if they won't do either of those things for something as small as blue eyes, the chances they will do them on Void Elves, on the thing they selected to differentiate Void Elves from Blood Elves? That's like saying a thief won't rob a piggy bank because stealing money is wrong, but a bank is ok.

If you accept the justification and rationale for no blue eyed blood elves, you have to accept it in total and apply it to all existing races. You can't celebrate it on the one hand and then pretend void elf like skin tones are still possible.

[HailToTheKing]

God I love the fact that blue eyes for Blood Elves won't be available to players. It's like, reverse salt.

[Varodoc]

The line '"in terms of their relationship to magic in the Sunwell' was among the few minor differences he did acknoweldge, the cumulative point of which was to say those minor differences were irrelevant to the overall point that Blood Elves are High Elves. The nature of the Sunwell is well documented, it is a force that transcends time, space and dimensions and reaches any thalassian elf to sustain their addiction. High Elves are still bound to the Sunwell, as evidenced by them feeling the restored connection and making pilgrimages.

There is no canon evidence for the Quel'Danil elves having forsworn magic. That was mentioned in the manga. The same manga also said Sylvanas could raise undead herself long before she met the Val'kyr. There is no evidence the Quel'Danil elves have made this vow in the canon universe. Besides, plenty of elves don't use magic but they still need to feed on it to survive.

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Yes, they do, as the by-product of the transformation is the new skin tones. The other troll tribes are fundamentally trolls, no different from the Darkspear biologically, just different in terms of tribe.

And let's not forget that the void elf skin tones are not an accident. They are what was used to justify Void Elves as an allied race once High Elves were rejected.

The principle is clear. They will not bow to what is perceived as a popular demand if it contravenes lore. High Elf like skin tones on Void Elves does that. They will not write new lore to justify a change. High Elf like skin tones on Void Elves does that.

And if they won't do either of those things for something as small as blue eyes, the chances they will do them on Void Elves, on the thing they selected to differentiate Void Elves from Blood Elves? That's like saying a thief won't rob a piggy bank because stealing money is wrong, but a bank is ok.

If you accept the justification and rationale for no blue eyed blood elves, you have to accept it in total and apply it to all existing races. You can't celebrate it on the one hand and then pretend void elf like skin tones are still possible.

Once again talking randomly. Having to write new lore does not mean that they are contradicting lore, and they never said void elves are an allied race because of their skin tone. Also dark troll customization options already contradict the lore, because canonically there is only ONE dark troll left, whereas with pink-skinned void elves they can literally come up with something new or just dont justify it at all, like they did for literally every other customization they are adding in Shadowlands.

Your last argument makes no sense. Blood elves dont have blue eyes because they have evolved beyond that. Void elves can still have pink skin tones because they are literally led by a void elf who has pink skin tone.

[Obelisk Kai]

Once again talking randomly. Having to write new lore does not mean that they are contradicting lore, and they never said void elves are an allied race because of their skin tone. Also dark troll customization options already contradict the lore, because canonically there is only ONE dark troll left, whereas with pink-skinned void elves they can literally come up with something new or just dont justify it at all, like they did for literally every other customization they are adding in Shadowlands.

Your last argument makes no sense. Blood elves dont have blue eyes because they have evolved beyond that. Void elves can still have pink skin tones because they are literally led by a void elf who has pink skin tone.

Yet they could have written new lore to justify it. They didn't. Yet somehow you argue that they will write new lore for the far bigger ask of giving void elves high elf like skin tones, obliterating the differences between them and blood elves?

That's cognitive dissonance. If they denied a popular request on a small thing because of lore, they will deny another request for a far bigger thing for the same reason.

After all, void elves were 'evolved' out of their current state by a void based laser beam. Pink (just pink btw? None of the darker skins appealing? Funny how when a shorthand for human range is required it's always 'pink' or 'fair') skins, they've evolved beyond that.

[FlubberPuddy]

That the dark skin thing was corroborated by multiple races with human range tones getting dark skin options and wasn't just sourced from one random guy on twitter. Dwarves were depicted with those tones in the slides. Besides, that was ultimately verifialbe via the alpha

And as I stated, we haven't seen the 'end' of what Ion said: Just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in WoW ever. That has no time limit, it doesn't mean 'because you don't see it in Shadowlands doesn't mean High Elves never coming.'

Dark skin on Blood Elves was the same hearsay, seeing dark skin on other races doesn't mean much for Blood Elves. Indeed we were just shown today: No Blue Eyes coming to Void Elves despite every other race with eye color options are getting Blue Eyes, hell possibly even Night Elves.

So what a bunch of other races are getting with the increased customizations doesn't mean those same options will transfer to every race included. Blue Eyes not coming to Blood Elves goes against that form of evidence you bring up.

As I recall, and continuously remind you, you said that about Ion after he said Blood Elves are High Elves and High Elves are playable on the Horde. Your basic premise is that he was lying. Funny then how quick you are to believe what he said tonight because it was what you wanted to hear. That IS a first class hypocrisy. Still, the theory remains ridiculous. Nothing that was said tonight materially changes the chances of a distinct high elf allied race i.e. still practically non existant.

You recall wrong. I never said Ion was a liar. I've never called him a liar. I said what I said: He wanted to keep the focus on Void Elves as they just released and not about other races. Just like when Wildhammer Dwarves were asked about to John Hight, they were given the same "it's possible but not right now" answer.

You seem to be projecting how you wish my arguments were, not what they actually are.

Yeah, again, you keep saying that but there seems to be a level of cognitive dissonance going on. Tonight proved popularity doesn't matter, lore does. You are unable to reconcile the denial of a popular request for blue eyes on Blood Elves for reasons of lore with your own request for high elf skin tones. Somehow one being denied for reasons of lore despite their popularity makes sense, yet the other which is far more controversial is still possible because of it's popularity.

That is doublethink. The ability to simultaneously hold two ideas at once despite them being mutually contradictory. A principle has been established. The popularity of a request is meaningless. What matters is the lore. If what you want goes against what they deem to be lore, they won't do it. If it involves them having to make up new lore to justify a choice, they won't do it. That is what happened to blue eyes.

It is what will almost certainly happen to your request for the skin tones on Void Elves. They will not write new lore to justify high elf like skin tones on Void Elves. Void Elves will get new options, but remain in their niche. As they should.

There is no doublethink. If lore matters the High Elves have that in spades. High Elf request may be popular but it's basis is very well established within the lore. It is not some request that has no backing by the lore at all, and only reason it comes up continually is because Blizzard themselves continue to insert High Elves among the Alliance.

So I don't think there's anything to fret over. But you can keep thinking how you want, there's no longer any reason to debate on this matter.

High Elf request is now more hopeful to be continued as an ongoing request by Alliance players. That's the BIG WIN.

It was a logical extrapolation that came to a logical conclusion. It didn't start with a conclusion and headcanon excuses as to why that conclusion should come to pass. Important distinction.

It wasn't logical. It did start with a conclusion, because the conclusion was "Blood Elves are justified to have blue eyes" and then people dug up that explanation as justification for it.

Regardless, it's not an important distinction as all. Because what matters is what's actually allowed by the game. And that is no blue eyes for Blood Elves!!

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God I love the fact that blue eyes for Blood Elves won't be available to players. It's like, reverse salt.

You should take a gander at the official forums and the wowhead post, Blood Elf stans are leaving their salt everywhere.

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If they denied a popular request on a small thing because of lore

You keep thinking Eye color for Blood Elves is a 'small thing', it is in fact huuuuuuge from a lore perspective. Some races, eye color doesn't mean much, like humans/gnomes/dwarves/orcs/tauren/ etc.

For Blood Elves it absolutely does. They drew the 'eye color has meaning' straw.

[delus]

Now would be the time to add blue eyed blood elves if they wanted to. I guess if you want a blue eyed Thalassian, the Alliance is there waiting for you.

[Varodoc]

Yet they could have written new lore to justify it. They didn't. Yet somehow you argue that they will write new lore for the far bigger ask of giving void elves high elf like skin tones, obliterating the differences between them and blood elves?

That's cognitive dissonance. If they denied a popular request on a small thing because of lore, they will deny another request for a far bigger thing for the same reason.

After all, void elves were 'evolved' out of their current state by a void based laser beam. Pink (just pink btw? None of the darker skins appealing? Funny how when a shorthand for human range is required it's always 'pink' or 'fair') skins, they've evolved beyond that.

Except that they can still do it? They already said they will add more customization options for void elves.

Also, how can you tell the difference between an Alliance pandaren and a Horde pandaren?

Void elves didn't evolve beyond that though, since Alleria prefers being in her high elf form. Also, who said ONLY pink skin options? Please stop assuming. I've already said plenty of times I'd like the option to constantly look like void Alleria too.

[delus]

And as I stated, we haven't seen the 'end' of what Ion said: Just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in WoW ever. That has no time limit, it doesn't mean 'because you don't see it in Shadowlands doesn't mean High Elves never coming.'

Dark skin on Blood Elves was the same hearsay, seeing dark skin on other races doesn't mean much for Blood Elves. Indeed we were just shown today: No Blue Eyes coming to Void Elves despite every other race with eye color options are getting Blue Eyes, hell possibly even Night Elves.

So what a bunch of other races are getting with the increased customizations doesn't mean those same options will transfer to every race included. Blue Eyes not coming to Blood Elves goes against that form of evidence you bring up.



You recall wrong. I never said Ion was a liar. I've never called him a liar. I said what I said: He wanted to keep the focus on Void Elves as they just released and not about other races. Just like when Wildhammer Dwarves were asked about to John Hight, they were given the same "it's possible but not right now" answer.

You seem to be projecting how you wish my arguments were, not what they actually are.


There is no doublethink. If lore matters the High Elves have that in spades. High Elf request may be popular but it's basis is very well established within the lore. It is not some request that has no backing by the lore at all, and only reason it comes up continually is because Blizzard themselves continue to insert High Elves among the Alliance.

So I don't think there's anything to fret over. But you can keep thinking how you want, there's no longer any reason to debate on this matter.

High Elf request is now more hopeful to be continued as an ongoing request by Alliance players. That's the BIG WIN.


It wasn't logical. It did start with a conclusion, because the conclusion was "Blood Elves are justified to have blue eyes" and then people dug up that explanation as justification for it.

Regardless, it's not an important distinction as all. Because what matters is what's actually allowed by the game. And that is no blue eyes for Blood Elves!!

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You should take a gander at the official forums and the wowhead post, Blood Elf stans are leaving their salt everywhere.

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You keep thinking Eye color for Blood Elves is a 'small thing', it is in fact huuuuuuge from a lore perspective. Some races, eye color doesn't mean much, like humans/gnomes/dwarves/orcs/tauren/ etc.

For Blood Elves it absolutely does. They drew the 'eye color has meaning' straw.

It's a shame to see the fel go away as it was so central to what it meant to be a blood elf in the beginning of their story. Now they have light corruption which sort of takes them back to their roots.

[Uthan]

The line '"in terms of their relationship to magic in the Sunwell' was among the few minor differences he did acknoweldge, the cumulative point of which was to say those minor differences were irrelevant to the overall point that Blood Elves are High Elves. The nature of the Sunwell is well documented, it is a force that transcends time, space and dimensions and reaches any thalassian elf to sustain their addiction. High Elves are still bound to the Sunwell, as evidenced by them feeling the restored connection and making pilgrimages.

There is no canon evidence for the Quel'Danil elves having forsworn magic. That was mentioned in the manga. The same manga also said Sylvanas could raise undead herself long before she met the Val'kyr. There is no evidence the Quel'Danil elves have made this vow in the canon universe. Besides, plenty of elves don't use magic but they still need to feed on it to survive.

So basically, one only needs to take the evidence we have super literally when it supports your agenda, otherwise it can be ignored? Regardless of what you think, he acknowledged that difference as being a thing, so for you to claim as if fact that there is no difference in regards to THE VERY THING was stated to be different is more than a bit sanctimonious (especially since his words are over-literal law in any other case where it suits you).

Why wouldn't the manga be canon? Afaik only the Warcraft RPG has been uncanonized (tho some of it still made it into the game eventually afaik). Where there are inconsistencies sure, the game trumps outside sources, but as far as Quel'danil is concerned the game doesn't.

[FlubberPuddy]

Except that they can still do it? They already said they will add more customization options for void elves.

For some reason there's people that will argue 'it's not in the game now, it'll never be!!!!' and they turn a blind eye to all the things added since. Even things that were initially refused by the developers.

Doesn't make sense to me to have that sort of argumentative stance.

[Varodoc]

For some reason there's people that will argue 'it's not in the game now, it'll never be!!!!' and they turn a blind eye to all the things added since. Even things that were initially refused by the developers.

Doesn't make sense to me to have that sort of argumentative stance.

The real clownery is people who claim void elves would look too similar to blood elves when nightborne females are basically a carbon copy of night elves females when covered in armor.

[Ardenaso]

It's a shame to see the fel go away as it was so central to what it meant to be a blood elf in the beginning of their story. Now they have light corruption which sort of takes them back to their roots.

to be fair Blood Elves in WC3 Classic still had blue eyes

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I didn't like the retcon that they quickly got blue eyes as early as Tyrande chapter

[FlubberPuddy]

The real clownery is people who claim void elves would look too similar to blood elves when nightborne females are basically a carbon copy of night elves females when covered in armor.

Pretty much. Like I said it was very hypocritical in more than one way and people have most likely since pointed it out in such effort that they most likely knew they messed up.

Which is why no one has re-iterated what's been said at the Q&A since.

It's funny to read some of the threads on official forums, some people are very salty. "All High Elves should have Golden Eyes" "Blizzard should kill off the High Elves so people stop talking about them!".

Awww yeah

[Frenchvince]

https://twitter.com/MrGMYT/status/1255061585124626433
@MrGMYT

<3

[FlubberPuddy]

https://twitter.com/MrGMYT/status/1255061585124626433
@MrGMYT

<3

Good on him and over 500~ likes already. "High Elf supporters only have 100 at most I'd bet" oh I'll never forget those laughable comments.

[Obelisk Kai]

Good on him and over 500~ likes already. "High Elf supporters only have 100 at most I'd bet" oh I'll never forget those laughable comments.

Considering that isn't what I said, you've clearly forgotten it already and replaced it with something else in your mind entirely.