Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[elbleuet]

As is Blood Elves being the high elf option in WoW, Void Elves being the high elf option in the Alliance, and the exiles being a dissolute group scattered across the planet with barely any numbers and no real focus.

Numbers don't matter when it comes to add new races. And High elves are way more numerous than the void elves, so please stop using this argument.

and the exiles being a dissolute group scattered across the planet

Most of them are unified under the banner of the Alliance so they aren't a "dissolute group".
Some created their own faction. They even brought war in various places, including Suramar, Dalaran, Theramore and the Isle of Thunder.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves. That is a fact.

Also no.

No blue eyes. No tattoos. No High elves. Blood elves envolved. We got the confirmation.

[Uthan]

No rationalising involved at all. After all, I am not arguing that he didn't rule out blue eyes last night or that he was misunderstood, or that he is lying and that blue eyes are clearly coming in a future update as a surprise.

If you take what he said last at face value, then it is hypocritical to call other direct statements into question simply because you don't like what was said.

Bit silly to bring that specific one up since Ion has now completely turned around on stating that blue eyed elves are a horde thing, meaning it's proven to not have been wrong to have questioned him last time at all (though last time his statement went contrary to what's shown in the game and this time it lines up with it, so less reason to argue now I agree). That you're not trying to twist this particular statement in that particular direction and that there are others more unreasonable than you around doesn't really change my point in the slightest however.

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[yana]

Well, I remember the statement a while ago, that if they had made Night elves more attractive, including presenting their highborne side properly like they eventually did in Legion (but only in the Nightborne sub-race - gone horde), many players would be satisfied with that, and a much smaller number would want high elves.

TBh, I and many others feel that Blood elf

• Have superior models, more attractive and largely better animations (especially male casting) - appearance wise.
• They also have the more complete fantasy - people who love elves, love magical cities and forests - The blood elves have both, the Night elves have ruins and magical forests (most of which are charred and invaded).
• Lore wise in game - the blood elves constantly outperform the Night elves

In every department blood elves are better.

• Night elf models look derpier - especially the males - females have competition with Belves, males have a huge gap - NIght elf males need better faces and a better posture and better animations.
• Night elves need cool Night elf cities - Suramar is a night elf city, but it's with the Nightborne (horde night elves), both Zin'Azshari and Eldre'thalas, Nar'thalas all ruins, if they could actually fix up all 3, …
• Night elves need to start appearing in-game as magical as the lore is. Most of that magic was seen in the Nightborne -- while the Night elf connection is quite clear, this is not associated with the blue team, - hence players covet that. Now the Moonguard and Farondis had serious displays of magical power, but again, everyone was looking at Suramar and the Nightold, now if half the Nightborne still had their night elf appearances, and it was a mixture, people may feel differently.

I still think they should turn half the Nightborne NPC population into Night elves, and call it an accelerated effect of taking the fruit :P - and either build them New Zin'Azshari like we see in Warbringers, or share/give Suramar.
Finally fix the model issues - then maybe.

If Night elves were as attractive as blood elves, this thread would largely be for the real original High elf fans. And rather than horde hard cores trying to cockblock with arguments like low numbers and same models, the chief counter would be demanding they get night elves on the horde side.


Have you not noticed, that nobody wanted night elves on the horde? Not one request, but the minute they gave slimmer looking Night elves in a super magical Night elf city, - look at how the demand for Nightborne was largest on the horde - even after managing to have the player male model look so much worse. But rather than give them to the alliance they gave them void elves, as a means to avoid giving them high elf skin tones in the exchange trade. It also tells me that the fantasy of the race plays a huge role. They showed the best with the blood elves, whiles with the Night elves, its tucked in the lore, in-game had their better pieces given to the horde when it eventually came in 7.0, leaving them generally a lot shabbier.

Anyway, it's too late now. Even with much prettier Night elves, the demand for high elves will be high. Although I could be wrong. If Night elves became really attractive all round - I.e model, assets (forests and cities), lore developments - people might just not be that interested in high elves, or having the skin tone wouldn't affect them that much.

So basicaly you wanted the night elves to abandon their elune and druidic roots and their story of repenting for their sins and reimagining themselves to prevent a second sundering so they can have pretty cities? Suramar represents everything the kaldorei dont want to be and you are trying to force a fantasy to them that is contradictory to their core.
their magic is druidic and divine, the highborne are at best kept around in a leash and should have never been accepted back and are basicaly the warlocks of their race: kept around because they are usefull but never accepted and forced to keep quiet and out of sight.

If you want the kaldorei to regress to a culture they activaly despise, then just play a nightborne lol.

[Obelisk Kai]

So basicaly you wanted the night elves to abandon their elune and druidic roots nad their story of repenting for their sins and reimagining themselves to prevent a second sundering so they can have pretty cities? Suramar represents everything the kaldorei dont want to be and you are trying to force a fantasy to them that is contradictory to their core.
their magic is druidic and divine, the highborne are at best kept around in a leash and should have never been accepted back

The entire point of the Night Elves is that they were concepted to be a mix of the dark elven and wood elven fantasy tropes. Just as Blood Elves are the Warcraft franchise's original spin on traditional high elves, Night Elves were the original spin on wood elves.

https://www.lby3.com/2005/10/29/bliz...e-of-warcraft/

'Blood Elves were chosen as the Horde expansion race in the Burning Crusade because designers were thrilled with how well Samwise had redesigned the classic wood elves with the night elves. And they knew that, “one day, high elves are going to have to get a facelift, too.'

Wood Elves do not live in big cities. Wood Elves are not keen on any other magic than nature based ones. Wood Elves try and live in harmony with their enviroment. (The Dark Elf elements in Night Elf DNA are the matriarchal society with female warriors and male spellcasters).

You can see that the big divide in elven society on Azeorth is rooted in the original societal stratification of the old Night Elf empire, between the aristocratic Highborne magic users and those who were, for want of a better word, lowborne.

The Highborne shaped the Night Elf empire. When it came crashing down around them, those that hadn't sunk into the sea with Azshara and become Naga became the ancestors of the Blood Elves. The Blood Elves created a magical kingdom where the enviroment was bent to their will, in line with highborne beliefs.
In Suramar, the highborne sealed the city off and created an entirely new arcane energy source on which to live, the Nightwell. Suramar is a time capsule of what the old Night Elf Empire was, and that Empire was built in line with highborne beliefs. That they find the high elves of Silvermoon, the Blood Elves, to be kindred spirits is completely unsurprising.

The 'lowborne' though rejected all that. They rejected arcane magic. They rejected urban life. They rejected everything they felt had contributed to their fall. They created an entirely new culture centred around Druidism. Whilst a few void elves are part of the Alliance, and even fewer exiles, the rough division of the elves of Azeroth now maps onto the current faction divide. The highborne elves, the Blood Elves and the Nightborne, form a part of the Horde, meaning that 'Highborne' culture is pretty much a strand of Horde identity.
The wood elven theme of the Night Elves constitutes the strongest element of elven lore within the Alliance. Yes, a few highborne elves returned to the fold, but they don't live in a highborne culture. They live in the new Night Elf culture which de-emphasises any other magic than nature magic or the holy magics of faith in Elune. They are tolerated, just as Warlocks in Stormwind are similarly tolerated.

So I apologise for the long spiel, but I wished to back up your correct analysis. People need to accept Warcraft races as they are, instead of dreaming them into what they are not. The presumption must be, as it was with the character model redesign, that those playing a race already enjoy the fantasy behind it. Attempting to upend that fantasy because one individual doesn't like it and wishes it could be more like that of another race not only isn't going to happen, it's a fundamentally selfish aim because it's achievement would ruin what the people playing it now without issue are enjoying.

If anyone really feels the need to play a highborne elf in all their glory, the Nightborne are there for them. They are as close to a highborne as it possible to get. And the only reason they aren't exactly the same as the highborne is that their long isolation and dependence on the Nightwell have accentuated the traits that defined the Highborne in the first place. In other words, Nightborne are highborne taken to the next level.

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Bit silly to bring that specific one up since Ion has now completely turned around on stating that blue eyed elves are a horde thing, meaning it's proven to not have been wrong to have questioned him last time at all (though last time his statement went contrary to what's shown in the game and this time it lines up with it, so less reason to argue now I agree). That you're not trying to twist this particular statement in that particular direction and that there are others more unreasonable than you around doesn't really change my point in the slightest however.]

No, he didn't say blue eyes were a Horde thing last time. In fact, he listed the different eye colour as one of the minor differences that didn't alter the overall fact that Blood Elves were high elves. He did jokingly suggest we could get contact lenses for blue eyes at the end which is where the germ of the possibility of blue eyes for Blood Elves came from, but I guess a joke really is a joke.

I thought blue eyes for Blood Elves were plausible on the basis of existing lore. I still think had that explanation been proffered, it would have been acceptable. But he said no. It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to turn around and attempt to poke holes in his reasoning, so I accept it. After all, the logic of blue eyes was based on the idea of a Sunwell that was equal parts light and equal parts arcane. If the light part is instead dominant, in makes sense why blue wouldn't stand a chance in the transition from green to gold. This logic also applies to the exiles of course, while it will probably occur after the end of WoW, the few of them who are left will be unable to stop the slow transition to golden eyes either. But that is for the future.

If I had to speculate on a gameplay motive, I think it's likely to increase differentiation with Void Elves, who also possess blue eyes. With Void Elves being locked to their limited skin tone range as a result of their transformation, they don't really have much room to expand there beyond yet more subtle shades of blues and purples, possibly blacks...possibly ivory white as well, a true void of colour. Blue eyes must now be considered a Void Elf thing, and they may get other eye colours such as pure white and dark purple which may also evoke their inherent void theme.

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Numbers don't matter when it comes to add new races. And High elves are way more numerous than the void elves, so please stop using this argument.

Which of course leads back to the traditional rebuttals.

1.) Void Elves can almost certainly change other elves, as the small batch of mages initially transformed does not tally with a multi class organisation that can send lots of people on a suicide mission and still remain a viable force.

2.) The population issue is not the reason the exiles aren't playable, it is the justification. Were the exiles strong, numerous and well organised then the arguments against making them playable would be a lot more contested. As they are none of those things, it makes it easier to sustain the true, gameplay reason they aren't playable.

That High Elves are already playable as Blood Elves and that adding a duplicate of that race to the Alliance undermines the two faction principle.

Most of them are unified under the banner of the Alliance so they aren't a "dissolute group".
Some created their own faction. They even brought war in various places, including Suramar, Dalaran, Theramore and the Isle of Thunder.

Those in Theramore are likely dead thanks to the mana bomb. Those in Suramar, Dalaran and the Isle of Thunder were the same small group of elves re-used. Even smaller groups are scattered across the place, with Quel'Danil hosting a handful, Allerian Stronghold hosting a handful (six I think) and individuals found here or there.

The Alliance alignment of the Silver Covenant is also doubtful given they didn't participate in the recent all out war between Alliance and Horde. At all.

Also no.

No blue eyes. No tattoos. No High elves. Blood elves envolved. We got the confirmation.

Individuals cannot evolve. A biological change in an individual is a metamorphosis. Void Elves did not evolve from high elves into Void Elves, they metamorphosed. To 'evolve' away from something in a biological sense is impossible for an individual, as evolution is a process that takes place over countless generations. However, the term 'to evolve' can also be used to reflect societal shifts, such as their previous reliance on the Sunwell as an arcane energy source towards a greater devotion to the holy light. So Blood Elves are evolving away from blue eyes in the same way modern societies have evolved away from feudalism.

[elbleuet]

If anyone really feels the need to play a highborne elf in all their glory, the Nightborne are there for them. They are as close to a highborne as it possible to get. And the only reason they aren't exactly the same as the highborne is that their long isolation and dependence on the Nightwell have accentuated the traits that defined the Highborne in the first place. In other words, Nightborne are highborne taken to the next level.

Fair enough.

But with the new night elf costumization options, the original Highborne will be available on the Alliance side too.

[Ielenia]

If they will not give a 'much demanded' option for Blood Elves, as blue eyes were, for reasons of lore, then what chance is there for the high elf like skin tones you've been arguing for?

Is there really a "high demand" for blue eyes for blood elves? The only time I see anything of the sort are from anti-high-elf posters saying it should go to the Horde.

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Here's a 1000iq explanation for pink-skinned void elves:

"After a year of research into the void knowledge kept within Telogrus Rift (an established plot point), Magister Umbric and his kin have learned how to revert back to their high elf forms."

I'll have you know it took me a total of 20 seconds to come up with this and I'm one guy.

How about this: "Umbric and his magisters finally devised a way to make the void infusion less scarring on the body."

[Mace]

So basicaly you wanted the night elves to abandon their elune and druidic roots and their story of repenting for their sins and reimagining themselves to prevent a second sundering so they can have pretty cities? Suramar represents everything the kaldorei dont want to be and you are trying to force a fantasy to them that is contradictory to their core.
their magic is druidic and divine, the highborne are at best kept around in a leash and should have never been accepted back and are basicaly the warlocks of their race: kept around because they are usefull but never accepted and forced to keep quiet and out of sight.

If you want the kaldorei to regress to a culture they activaly despise, then just play a nightborne lol.

When did you EVER see that written, and how could you possibly draw that conclusion.

How is showing night elf cities and prettier night elf models somehow abandoning their druidic and Elune aspects?

Do you even know their lore? Elune never conflicted with either their civilisation or their druidism, the priesthood has a form that worked well with both.

Druidism is different sort of lifestyle tot he civilization arcane side, the Night elves having one never excludes the other. THey are big enough to have both, and not once is it suggested, or implied that druidism should be removed or abandoned.

thi sis a classic case of mis-reading because you may be assuming what my intention is rather than actually taking my words at face value.

In lore night elves have always had these 2 contrasting sides. they're not at war with each other, they are just very different. It is an extreme difference. The race has always had a duality of 2 contrasting ends, that don't make sense at first sight. How can you be so calm yet so tempestuous? so civilized yet so savage? So magical yet so feral? so serely wise and advanced, yet be so impulsive. Humble yet arrogant.

Having forests doesn't mean they can't have cities. It is not against their core, it is part of their lore. My observation is that you don't see that part much in game, not until 7.0, and the fact that the Nightborne are ont he horde shouldn't blind you to the fact that this is part of the night elf civilization of things.

The point of my response was that because it is not on the alliance, and the Night elf isn't as attractive, people don't want the night elf, but want what blizzard also ook from their alliance fantasy and gave to the horde. Except in game they made it look very pretty, showed off the blood elves more and better. In lore, the Night elves on paper are more magical, more intelligent, stronger, longer lived than the blood elves - blood elves are like the humans of elves. Night elves aren't uglier either. Their cities are more magical than the blood elves, as are their forests - this is because they are made to be the original elf, yet y ou would never think so from in game, because they've not been as highlighted. Their is a disparity, and in game night elves are generally weak, undeveloped and just not as attractive.

So people will want to play high elves a lot more.

[Ielenia]

Every time someone points this out the obvious answer is, why don't you just dress your Void Elf up like this and pretend?

Because every time someone points that out it's in reply to the "faction identity" that the anti-high-elf posters often repeat, and not because "we want the blood elf model" like, again, what anti-high-elf posters often repeat.

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Just curious. Why don't you guys give feedback about how to make the current Alliance race's more appealing instead of asking for opposite faction's most popular race? Another human-looking race would be boring imo.

I take it this is your first time ever in this thread, then, and didn't even bother reading the opening post?

[Odintdk]

Fair enough.

But with the new night elf costumization options, the original Highborne will be available on the Alliance side too.

The Highborne no longer exist as they were either exiled or exiled themselves back then, and applying a paintjob on currnet Nightelves does not magically make them Highborne.

why would you hate if playable High Elves were added to the Alliance?

On top of the reasons ThatsOurEirc listed: Because even now the majority of horde character are Blood/High elves, it would simply turn the entire fuckin game and it's 2 factions into Elves vs Elves..

I for one am already sick of seeing my entire faction so filled with Elves, and so devoid of the original races that actually created the Horde (Orc, Tauren, Troll). I most definitely do not want most if not all of what I'm seeing or fighting on the enemy faction to be the SAME. And yes, every character I play is Orc.

With how obsessed many people are with Elves in general, adding the most popular race from the Horde, to the Alliance, may aswell happen if/when they want to remove factions and make it a full on PVE game.

[elbleuet]

The Highborne no longer exist as they were either exiled or exiled themselves back then, and applying a paintjob on currnet Nightelves does not magically make them Highborne.

They do. Most of them have rejoined the Night elf society. See : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shen%27dralar

[Obelisk Kai]

Fair enough.

But with the new night elf costumization options, the original Highborne will be available on the Alliance side too.

What is an original highborne? It's just a Night Elf who likes using magic, that's it. It was never a racial component of their society, merely an aspect of it. I don't believe there is such a thing as a highborne skin tone, much in the same way I don't believe there is a Blood Knight skin tone or a Blood Elf Magister skin tone or a Night Elf druid skin tone. A night elf druid with whatever you are calling the highborne skin tone isn't going to be a highborne.

The Nightborne are what happens when an aspect of a society completely consumes it. They are utterly defined by their affinity for arcane magic. And they have altered as a result, with the upswept rather than the backswept ears and their own tightly defined aesthetic of shockingly white hair and jet blue skin setting them apart from the Night Elves.

It is the Nightborne who have been differentiated from the Night Elves and along a very narrow path. Whatever customisations Nightborne get should respect that.

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They do. Most of them have rejoined the Night elf society. See : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shen%27dralar

There were very few survivors from that, and they now form an aspect of Night Elf society. They had to reconcile themselves to a druidic, arboreal order in contrast to an arcane, urban lifestyle.

[Mace]

The entire point of the Night Elves is that they were concepted to be a mix of the dark elven and wood elven fantasy tropes. Just as Blood Elves are the Warcraft franchise's original spin on traditional high elves, Night Elves were the original spin on wood elves.

https://www.lby3.com/2005/10/29/bliz...e-of-warcraft/

'Blood Elves were chosen as the Horde expansion race in the Burning Crusade because designers were thrilled with how well Samwise had redesigned the classic wood elves with the night elves. And they knew that, “one day, high elves are going to have to get a facelift, too.'

Wood Elves do not live in big cities. Wood Elves are not keen on any other magic than nature based ones. Wood Elves try and live in harmony with their enviroment. (The Dark Elf elements in Night Elf DNA are the matriarchal society with female warriors and male spellcasters).

You can see that the big divide in elven society on Azeorth is rooted in the original societal stratification of the old Night Elf empire, between the aristocratic Highborne magic users and those who were, for want of a better word, lowborne.

The Highborne shaped the Night Elf empire. When it came crashing down around them, those that hadn't sunk into the sea with Azshara and become Naga became the ancestors of the Blood Elves. The Blood Elves created a magical kingdom where the enviroment was bent to their will, in line with highborne beliefs.
In Suramar, the highborne sealed the city off and created an entirely new arcane energy source on which to live, the Nightwell. Suramar is a time capsule of what the old Night Elf Empire was, and that Empire was built in line with highborne beliefs. That they find the high elves of Silvermoon, the Blood Elves, to be kindred spirits is completely unsurprising.

The 'lowborne' though rejected all that. They rejected arcane magic. They rejected urban life. They rejected everything they felt had contributed to their fall. They created an entirely new culture centred around Druidism. Whilst a few void elves are part of the Alliance, and even fewer exiles, the rough division of the elves of Azeroth now maps onto the current faction divide. The highborne elves, the Blood Elves and the Nightborne, form a part of the Horde, meaning that 'Highborne' culture is pretty much a strand of Horde identity.
The wood elven theme of the Night Elves constitutes the strongest element of elven lore within the Alliance. Yes, a few highborne elves returned to the fold, but they don't live in a highborne culture. They live in the new Night Elf culture which de-emphasises any other magic than nature magic or the holy magics of faith in Elune. They are tolerated, just as Warlocks in Stormwind are similarly tolerated.

So I apologise for the long spiel, but I wished to back up your correct analysis. People need to accept Warcraft races as they are, instead of dreaming them into what they are not. The presumption must be, as it was with the character model redesign, that those playing a race already enjoy the fantasy behind it. Attempting to upend that fantasy because one individual doesn't like it and wishes it could be more like that of another race not only isn't going to happen, it's a fundamentally selfish aim because it's achievement would ruin what the people playing it now without issue are enjoying.

If anyone really feels the need to play a highborne elf in all their glory, the Nightborne are there for them. They are as close to a highborne as it possible to get. And the only reason they aren't exactly the same as the highborne is that their long isolation and dependence on the Nightwell have accentuated the traits that defined the Highborne in the first place. In other words, Nightborne are highborne taken to the next level.

While you stated some facts well, you really aren't given an accurate interpration. Druidism was never all there was to the Night elves. Developing the wood elf fantasy, did not replace or substitute the arcane dark elf one - that still is and originally was a core a part of the Night elf as the wood elf fantasy. Both by intention and implementation both in lore and in game (even though that hasn't seen as big an effort). THe horde aren't given Nightborne because they are continuing the legacy on the horde instead and that aspect of the night elves is abandoned. You mistake the intention of the sub-races if that is the conclusion you are drawing from it.

The Night elves Have Not Lost their Dark Elf half
No, the Nightborne were a display of that aspect of the Night elves, that is still a part of them. Nightborne are not now the dark elves so the Night elves can continue as generic fantasy wood elves they were never only intended to be (anymore than Lightforged draenei some how continue as the priest draenei or substitute the normal draenei from that, or void elves substitute the blood elves for magical scholarship or any other aspect). The size of the druidic part in the current time for Night elves is irrelevant (for those who bring it up as some sort of indication that Night elves are somehow now wood elves and are no longer the dual arcane/nature race - despite the kaldorei being the only elf not to have changed physically from its arcane origin), the story constantly changes that, and it continues to present the arcane night elves, whether Highborne, Nightborne, Moonguard and others - nor does it ever class them as blood elves or shift what they are away from their lore roots.

They always presented the two halves of the night elves, and continue to do so, they always show the variations too. The inception of the Nightborne doesn't make the Highborne nor night elf mage redundant, anymore than the Highmountain makes the Tauren redundant, or the void elf makes the blood elf redundant in anyway. They have stated exactly what the Night elf is , and continue to show and develop that is. Don't take the lack of assets on the alliance half or the seemingly slower pace it is realised as some indication otherwise.

The Purpose of Sub/Allied Races
Allied or Sub-Races aren't given to replace another race, they are not designed to have 1 major aspect intentionally different from the main race at all. They are designed to be a different story of a part of the race. Nightborne were not designed to go horde at all, in fact when it was decided to make them an allied race, it had to be debated to switch to the horde, and in 7.1 a horde connection was introduced where NONE existed in 7.0.1

Open your eyes. People stating the existence and pointing out the Highborne or civilization aspect of the Night elves are not caught in some sort of weird loop thinking Night elves were what blood elves were don't be silly. Night elf lore was developed right from their start, and it wasn't developed to be some opposite to blood elves.

Night elves the interview shows were the ones intended to be a full race, while high/blood elves were part of the alliance, and to this day don't have the full scope the Night elf has.


Are you one of those people who feel that because blizzard start showing another aspect to a race, then the other aspects in their past are not a part of them anymore? What if they start showing those parts again. If blizzard wanted to change Night elves into wood elves, they'd have fixed a magical transformation for them and made them like The Ardenweald shadowlands race or the Sons of Cenarius. No, cos the wood elf is only a part of the identity, not the whole, always was. As the developer, they would remember what the point of each race actually is, regardless of what the focus at the time is or what you see most prevalent.

Back to my Statement
Pointing out that people would be more satisfied with the Night elves and not request High elves as much as an opinion I and others hold with good cause. However judging by the way you write, that you would even think that possessing the in-lore aspects of the Night elf civilization and magic to be visible in an attractive way in game, to me points out the heart of your bias, and the core reason why you are opposed to High elves on the alliance. It is clear to me, that for you it's not about whether this is possible lore wise, or practically or even should be at all. You actually feel that civilization and high magic, with pretty and beautifully attractive elves is a right on the horde and belongs there only. You don't want high elves on the alliance for that reason, and you like everyone who feels like you, don't want Night elves being as attractive either, clearly not wanting them visibly showing any of the more magical cooler sides. This is because you are behaving like a possessive jealous type person. The horde is yours, and "your" elves are the best. Which you interpret as all the traits and characteristics the blood elves have superior to the night elves - or rather the blood elves are displayed in game in a superior way to the night elves.

You will never want the alliance elves to be as nice as "your" horde elves, cos you've attached yourself to them, and now you protect them in your head from others getting what you have or worse it being better - like those men who are fans of their football team, and would defend the honour of their team they've given their love to the end, and will fight to brag about their team being better or the best. Somehow despite not working or being an actual part of that team, put their honour on the line for it.

Absolute nonsense. Don't do this about a video game fictional character or a sport team.

[Obelisk Kai]

Because every time someone points that out it's in reply to the "faction identity" that the anti-high-elf posters often repeat, and not because "we want the blood elf model" like, again, what anti-high-elf posters often repeat.

If you feel a Void Elf dressed up in armour isn't good enough because you know it's a Void Elf, then rest assured the fact it's a Void Elf dressed up in armour rather than a blood elf duplicate ensures the preservation of faction identity and diversity.

[Kiri]

Which of course leads back to the traditional rebuttals.

1.) Void Elves can almost certainly change other elves, as the small batch of mages initially transformed does not tally with a multi class organisation that can send lots of people on a suicide mission and still remain a viable force.

2.) The population issue is not the reason the exiles aren't playable, it is the justification. Were the exiles strong, numerous and well organised then the arguments against making them playable would be a lot more contested. As they are none of those things, it makes it easier to sustain the true, gameplay reason they aren't playable.

That High Elves are already playable as Blood Elves and that adding a duplicate of that race to the Alliance undermines the two faction principle.

Those in Theramore are likely dead thanks to the mana bomb. Those in Suramar, Dalaran and the Isle of Thunder were the same small group of elves re-used. Even smaller groups are scattered across the place, with Quel'Danil hosting a handful, Allerian Stronghold hosting a handful (six I think) and individuals found here or there.

The Alliance alignment of the Silver Covenant is also doubtful given they didn't participate in the recent all out war between Alliance and Horde. At all.

I mean, it is true that it is more of a justification - some might say excuse - than a real reason. Blizzard can make the numbers whatever they want without too much regard for consistency and logic, anyway. They pretty successfully did that with the orcs, to be honest, who without much procreation moved from disparate prisoners/refugees to one of the most numerous races in Azeroth, despite being almost constantly involved in harsh wars. There really isn't any point in trying to use actual logic and 'facts' here. If they wanted High Elves playable, they would just make up big enough numbers of them and call it a day. Heck, that's what they just did with the Void Elves.

That's also why I wouldn't read too much into the whole Silver Covenant not appearing much in BFA thing. Blizz just didn't know how to write them in or didn't want to. Their narrative function of 'other elven faction opposing bloodelves' was pretty much filled by the Void Elves, so there probably was just no point at all. We will probably see them again once Blizzard remembers Vereesa and wants some cheap sister's drama that never pays off.

[elbleuet]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a highborne skin tone

Maybe you should



Dath'Remar was a blond Night elf.

There were very few survivors from that, and they now form an aspect of Night Elf society. They had to reconcile themselves to a druidic, arboreal order in contrast to an arcane, urban lifestyle.

"You're are trying to say MY Nightborne are less cool and interesting and less Highborne than your Highborne so I will do all my best to tell people they're not really Highborne but Night elves hanging on trees"

Isn't it enough already with what you're doing with the High elves ? I mean yes, Nightborne are also Highborne, and a really interesting race. No need do do this on another subject.

[Obelisk Kai]

while you stated some facts well, you really aren't given an accurate interpration. Druidism was never all there was to the Night elves. Developing the wood elf fantasy, did not replace or substitute the arcane one.

Given the Night Elves forbade the practice of arcane magic with a presumed sentence of death upon anyone found to be using it, I find this statement extremely hard to defend. To clarify, their Empire collapsed and the survivors blamed the Mages who caused it because, well, the Mages had caused it. They therefore rejected their society as it had existed previously and reconstructed a new society based on the principles of druidism and the priesthood of elune.

THe horde aren't given Nightborne because they are continuing the legacy on the horde instead and that aspect of the night elves is abandoned.

It was an abandoned aspect of Night Elf culture, they used to sentence practitioners of the arcane to death and only exiled the high elves because there were too many of them to execute after their act of defiance.
And the Horde was given Nightborne as part of the quid pro quo under which the Alliance got Void Elves. An elf variant for an elf variant.

No, the Nightborne were a display of that aspect of the Night elves, that is still a part of them, the size of the druidic part in the current time is irrelevant, the story constantly changes that, and it continues to present the arcane night elves, whether Highborne, Nightborne, Moonguard and others - nor does it ever class them as blood elves or shift what they are away from their lore roots.

The Nightborne are all about that one aspect. That's the entire point, they have a tightly defined story based on their adherence to the arcane and highborne culture.
The Highborne built a horrible society in Shendra'lar that collapsed because they tried to feed on a demon and the survivors begged to be let in Night Elf society, which is why Night Elves have Mages now but it's clear they are only tolerated. A Night Elf Mage isn't going to get the same reverence as a Blood Elf Magister or a Nightborne Arcanist.
The Moon Guard also remained in exile upon the Broken Isles, a forgotten organisation performing ancient tasks. Tiny groups do not necessarily major parts of warcraft societies, particularly when those societies deem their practices worthy of a death sentence or exile.

They always presented the two halves of the night elves, and continue to do so, they always show the variations too. The inception of the Nightborne doesn't make the Highborne nor night elf mage redundant, anymore than the Highmountain makes the Tauren redundant, or the void elf makes the blood elf redundant in anyway.

No, they have presented Night Elf society and they have presented a few outliers, Night Elves outside the mainstream. Human Warlocks are similarly tolerated in Stormwind but that doesn't mean Warlocks are a defining part of Human culture. The Highmountain to Tauren comparison is poor, as an allied race on the same side as their parent they have received only modest differentiation.

Void Elves were tremendously differentiated from Blood/high elves with their identity now being defined by the void, in contrast to the light orientated blood elves.
And the urban dwelling, arcane magic using Nightborne are thematically a massive distance apart from the arboreal, druidic Night Elves.

Allied or Sub-Races aren't given to replace another race, they are not designed to have 1 major aspect intentionally different from the main race at all. They are designed to be a different story of a part of the race. Nightborne were not designed to go horde at all, in fact when it was decided to make them an allied race, it had to be debated to switch to the horde, and in 7.1 a horde connection was introduced where NONE existed in 7.0.1

There is no evidence that the Night Elves have any interest in replicating what the Nightborne have become. We know what a Night Elf is. It's a wood elf. SOME of them can be Mages, but among Night Elves that profession is merely tolerated rather than exalted as it is among Nightborne.

Open your eyes. People stating the existence and pointing out the Highborne or civilization aspect of the Night elves are not caught in some sort of weird loop thinking Night elves were what blood elves were don't be silly. Night elf lore was developed right from their start, and it wasn't developed to be some opposite to blood elves.

Night Elves were created to be the warcraft spin on wood elves. It's there in black and white in the interview. The ability to be Mages is a concession to player choice, but one implemented consistent with established Night Elf lore i.e. underlying hostility to arcane magic.

Pointing out that people would be more satisfied with the Night elves and not request High elves as much as an opinion I and others hold with good cause. However judging by the way you write, that you would even think that possessing the in-lore aspects of the Night elf civilization and magic to be visible in an attractive way in game, to me points out the heart of your bias, and the core reason why you are opposed to High elves on the alliance. It is clear to me, that for you it's not about whether this is possible lore wise, or practically or even should be at all. You actually feel that civilization and high magic, with pretty and beautifully attractive elves is a right on the horde and belongs there only. You don't want high elves on the alliance for that reason, and you like everyone who feels like you, don't want Night elves being as attractive either, clearly not wanting them visibly showing any of the more magical cooler sides. This is because you are behaving like a possessive jealous type person. The horde is yours, and "your" elves are the best. Which you interpret as all the traits and characteristics the blood elves have superior to the night elves - or rather the blood elves are displayed in game in a superior way to the night elves.

Look, if you like soaring magical elven cities and the elves you clearly consider to the prettiest, you should be playing Horde. The Horde has that. Night Elves don't do magical cities. And Night Elves to my eye look fine, so comparisons on looks is clearly an eye of the beholder thing. The commentary on highborne culture forming a thread within the Horde is just that, commentary. Because that is what has happened. Both horde elves are arcane using, city dwelling magical elves. Both are living out the highborne ideal, just as was practices at the height of the Night Elf Empire. It is hard to argue that highborne culture is NOT a part of the Horde when two cultures descended from the Highborne are a part of the Horde, living according to Highborne precepts and when against that you have a few highborne night elves who've literally crawled out from the rubble of the hubris in Shendra'lar and begged to be let back into Night Elven society.

You will never want the alliance elves to be as nice as "your" horde elves, cos you've attached yourself to them, and now you protect them in your head from others getting what you have or worse it being better - like those men who are fans of their football team, and would defend the honour of their team they've given their love to the end, and will fight to brag about their team being better or the best. Somehow despite not working or being an actual part of that team, put their honour on the line for it.

Absolute nonsense. Don't do this about a video game fictional character or a sport team.

Actually attempting to turn Night Elves into Nightborne infringes on the thematic identity of an allied Horde race. If you want to play a Nightborne, please play a Nightborne. But the wood elf fantasy is a long and respected part of fantasy lore. Night Elves are Warcraft's spin on it. There are plenty of people who like Night Elves for what they are because they like the wood elf fantasy. Upending that with cities and fashionable robes and gaudy jewellery just because you want a Night Elf culture that is highborne again isn't going to happen. You may play a Night Elf Mage, but the story that comes with that is of being on society's edge rather than it's centre.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe you should



Dath'Remar was a blond Night elf.

Dath'remar definitely started purple, as all high elf ancestors did, but they metamorphosed due to their lack of a connection to the well of eternity following their exile. This is either an intermediate stage, or the lighting off screen is shifting the colour, as his hair is distinctly orange rather than blonde.

Where is the rest of the comic? It looks familiar.

"You're are trying to say MY Nightborne are less cool and interesting and less Highborne than your Highborne so I will do all my best to tell people they're not really Highborne but Night elves hanging on trees"

Isn't it enough already with what you're doing with the High elves ? I mean yes, Nightborne are also Highborne, and a really interesting race. No need do do this on another subject.

Night Elves tolerate the former highborne within their society, whereas Nightborne society IS highborne society. Mace is seemingly arguing that Night Elves need to be made more highborne like for him to be happy. I don't think that is required at all.

[Ielenia]

If you feel a Void Elf dressed up in armour isn't good enough because you know it's a Void Elf, then rest assured the fact it's a Void Elf dressed up in armour rather than a blood elf duplicate ensures the preservation of faction identity and diversity.

Yeah, this is bullshit.

You people are the ones that brought the "faction identity" excuse. Not us. So everything you wrote up there? Complete drivel. We don't care if the high elf model is a 99.99% duplicate of the blood elf model, or if the model would get some differentiations.

We don't care.

We also explained that we don't hold this "faction identity/lines" thing as highly as you people do, because we believe that Blizzard has irreparably damaged it with the pandaren, the void elves and the nightborne. Which is why throwing this "faction lines" reasoning falls flat.

[elbleuet]

Dath'remar definitely started purple, as all high elf ancestors did, but they metamorphosed due to their lack of a connection to the well of eternity following their exile. This is either an intermediate stage, or the lighting off screen is shifting the colour, as his hair is distinctly orange rather than blonde.

No. You shoud read his biography.

Night Elves tolerate the former highborne within their society, whereas Nightborne society IS highborne society. Mace is seemingly arguing that Night Elves need to be made more highborne like for him to be happy. I don't think that is required at all.

"High elves ARE the exiles, and Blood elves ARE the High elves"

I think I've already seen it somewhere

Some people would just like to play Highborne Night elves. Blizzard is leaning toward this by giving fair skin and blue-eyes options to the Night elves.

And given Night elves no longer have a home, maybe the Highborne will start building relationships with other Alliance races with arcane affinities such as the High elves, the Humans or even the Draeneï.

I believe the first Alliance Highborne ever introduced IG was with the Silver Covenant in Dalaran.

[Obelisk Kai]

No. You shoud read his biography.

The Sundering, chapter 10,page 164 'Through it came a highborne whom the captive had not met before....most arresting though was his pale, violet skin and, especially his hair-auburn with streaks of gold in it, something Tyrande had never seen'.

You know, that image you linked has him with pale violet skin. And that hair IS somewhat auburn. But I can't find any reference to him being blond as a Night Elf, although some artwork thousands of years later after his metamorphosis into a high elf do display him with that colour, but that is likely a consequence of the shift towards being a high elf.

But I've checked wowpedia and I've google Dath'remar blond, and there is no evidence of him being blonde while he was a Night Elf.

"High elves ARE the exiles, and Blood elves ARE the High elves"

I think I've already seen it somewhere

Some people would just like to play Highborne Night elves. Blizzard is leaning toward this by giving fair skin and blue-eyes options to the Night elves.



But that's the thing, I don't think there is a Highborne skin tone in the same way there is a void elf range or a human skin tone range. Highborne were just Night Elf nobles, physically indistinguishable from other Night Elves.

And I've looked through the three new skin tones datamined for Night Elves so far, none of them can be described as 'fair' as in peach coloured human tone.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=311980/...shots:311980:2

That is the lightest one available of the new options and it's fully consistent with other pink options available to Night Elves, a little softer and less garish maybe but not in the human range.

As for eye colours, if Night Elves get blue eyes more power to them if people want them. I reckon they will get soft yellow and silver as well.

And given Night elves no longer have a home, maybe the Highborne will start building relationships with other Alliance races with arcane affinities such as the High elves, the Humans or even the Draeneï.

I believe the first Alliance Highborne ever introduced IG was with the Silver Covenant in Dalaran.

Well Tyrande did say 'I will tarry no longer in this city of men. Let us leave for the boughs of Nordrassil' in the aftermath of the peace treaty, suggesting that with the retaking of Darkshore and the development of Mount Hyjal as a Night Elf base their home is intended to be in northeastern Kalimdor, as it always was.

Teldrassil itself was a mistake if you recall, planted by Fandral Staghelm for his own nefarious purposes. With it's loss, and the vulnerabilities of having so many Night Elves in a flammable structure exposed, I suspect the Night Elves will revert to their woodland existence of smaller towns and villages scattered throughout the great forests.

That and Blizzard doesn't seem to be in the mood to add more capital cities. So they don't need to build bridges with the tiny groups of exiles from the Blood Elves. Besides, if they needed assistance, far better to seek it from stronger Alliance allies such as the Draenei, Humans or Dwarves.

[FlubberPuddy]

That's also why I wouldn't read too much into the whole Silver Covenant not appearing much in BFA thing. Blizz just didn't know how to write them in or didn't want to. Their narrative function of 'other elven faction opposing bloodelves' was pretty much filled by the Void Elves, so there probably was just no point at all. We will probably see them again once Blizzard remembers Vereesa and wants some cheap sister's drama that never pays off.

Some people are very upset about the No blue eyes on blood elves thing so they try to rationalize 'it's ok because High Elf fans won't ever get what they want either' which I find hilarious.

I agree about not reading too much into things, I mean hell just in BFA Blizzard forgot about Void Elves as well during Siege of Org 2.0 and brought in High Elf Ballistas with Vereesa lol. They also went and used so many Void Elves for a suicide mission where it's confirmed all those who served on the Nazmir assault perished.

Numbers of population never mattered, it's as you say - Blizzard makes the numbers whatever they want without much consistency and logic.

I believe they never wanted High Elf request to outshine their new Void Elf toy and that's why Ion answered as he did back in the Q&A, almost mockingly. To answer a question that kept showing up repeatedly among their various Q&A question threads.

Like with BFA over, imagine if somebody asked 'why vulpera over gilgoblin' or something to that effect. Answer would most likely be the same MO: prop up vulpera to justify the add, marginalize gilgoblin to keep focus on vulpera.

Nice thing is even during then Ion stated High Elves are possible, then later on Afrasiabi said they're possible through Void Elf customization with a Blizzcon goer having talked with Ion on the showfloor where Ion also said 'the door hasn't closed' 'just because they won't be in bfa doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever'.

And just recently we saw Ion saying no blue eyes for blood elves because it doesn't make sense for them. I remember when Obelisk Kai was making arguments about how eye color is such a small thing and Blizzard wouldn't keep it only relegated to an NPC race when it can instead serve players as a playable option.

Well looks like that's what will happen, because all those different datamined files are new, and why would designers update NPC races that will only continue to be NPCs so looks like there might be High Elves some time in the far future (10.0+).