Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[The BrewCity Monk]

After watching this, maybe High Elves are able to being a allies race with the Alliance.


They are no different then Orcs (corrupt) and Mag'har Orces (not corrupt). So maybe it can happen. But I'm still not going to play as one thou. Still rather have Saberons or Stormheim Vrykuls.

[Traycor]

It is depressing how a fan with good will and imagination could come out with something this interesting, while the best Blizzard could make was "Void Elves": "Hey Alliance, aren't you happy with the purple and blue elves you already have? Don't worry, we are offering a brand new option: another kind of purple and blue elves!"
I mean, seriously...

Good creatively is almost always defined by constraints and limitations. This is why I think the Void Elves turned out the way they did. Blizzard's only real constraint was that they be cool, and be elves. Lore, look, ideology, theme... none of these were limiting factors. I think they likely started out in concept as a High Elf compromise, but they kept tweaking and tweaking, eventually deciding the "shadow form" felt too much like a race of shadow priests and turned them purple and tentacley all the time. Without constraints, creativity wanders away and gets lost. The end result was drow, vampire, demon-possessed elves.

The only difference for this thread here is that we had simple ground rules. Any design changes do not involve mutating the High Elves into something else, and do not violate the core of who the High Elves are. It's better if the changes fit with established lore, but not strictly required.

Blizzard could come up with something just as good (or even much better) if they just gave themselves constraints. It's the hallmark of good creativity. These are professionals, after all.

[Larodar]

Hopefully.

[Traycor]

After watching this, maybe High Elves are able to being a allies race with the Alliance.


They are no different then Orcs (corrupt) and Mag'har Orces (not corrupt). So maybe it can happen. But I'm still not going to play as one thou. Still rather have Saberons or Stormheim Vrykuls.

Lots of interesting points in this video. One of the most interesting observations he made was that visual distinction isn't even a large requirement, since the changes to the Draenei and Lightforged are barely noticeable unless you play one and know the options. Personally, I have a hard time telling them apart. Warpaint, hairstyles, and skin tones alone would likely be changes enough for High Elves. Everything else is just gravy.

The real thing they needed was a theme (other than "we're not them"). We've provided several possible themes here that could do nicely.

[sammygm]

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I don't really see why it's necessary to make sure there is a difference between the two races. It just feels like that is adding a restriction, for the sake of there being a restriction. I think there not being any Warlocks HE should be enough, and as far as I know there aren't any High Elf Warlocks.

They could delay it, but I don't feel the reason being too few High Elf Paladins a legitimate excuse either. High Elf Paladins would be part of the same order as Humans and Dwarves, and wouldn't really require any High Elves to train High Elves.

High Elves also didn't get their Holy powers from the Sunwell. They got it the same way as Humans and Dwarves by having faith in it. It is also why Blood Elves lost their Holy powers because they lost faith after Arthas sacked Silvermoon. High Elves would still have their faith in the Light, because they never gave up.

[Larodar]

In glorious Alliance Blue <3

And of course, there is this one here, also featured in a recent post promoting high elves.

[Gurluas]

That is not shamanism, and hence that would not be a shaman.

It would fit the class mechanics. Sunwalkers aren't paladins, they're Sun druids, but they still use the paladin mechanics.
It would be the same thing with High elf shamans.

[Traycor]

I don't really see why it's necessary to make sure there is a difference between the two races. It just feels like that is adding a restriction, for the sake of there being a restriction. I think there not being any Warlocks HE should be enough, and as far as I know there aren't any High Elf Warlocks.

They could delay it, but I don't feel the reason being too few High Elf Paladins a legitimate excuse either. High Elf Paladins would be part of the same order as Humans and Dwarves, and wouldn't really require any High Elves to train High Elves.

High Elves also didn't get their Holy powers from the Sunwell. They got it the same way as Humans and Dwarves by having faith in it. It is also why Blood Elves lost their Holy powers because they lost faith after Arthas sacked Silvermoon. High Elves would still have their faith in the Light, because they never gave up.

You're right, of course. We're trying to justify changes as an attempt to create a greater difference. But in reality, even with Paladins (or even paladins + shamans) the Blood Elves would have Warlocks, Death Knights, and Demon Hunters. High Elves would have none of these classes, so the class list is different.

I think shaman gives the most bang for the buck because it gives them something the Blood Elves don't have, which creates a greater distinction. Paladins don't really change that equation.

The problem with restricting Light classes (Priest/Paladin) or arcane (Mage) is that both ideas remove iconic elements from the race. Paladin just removes the least iconic elements. I'm still in the camp of removing the Warrior class. If you want to dual wield a High Elf, play a rogue

Monk is more of a 'nice to have'. It fits their theme, but you don't lose anything 'High Elf' if you drop the Monk class.

[Uthan]

Taliesins video got me thinking, maybe half-elves really is half of the answer to most of the issues (population, model, etc). While I'm not sure I'd be happy with "just" some in-between half-elf model, they could make it a rather large model spectrum, with a few pure high elf looking options on one end, and almost human looking on the other (and a few inbetweeners). The "race" could be called Quel'dorei legacy (High Elf Diaspora?) or something to that effect (probably better words for it for someone to come up with).

This would also help stifle an explosion of pure Quel'dorei which still should be somewhat rare, whether you feel they're almost extinct or that that's been overblown, since part of people picking the race would be some extent of half-elf. And while we know there are half-elves in Stormwind and prolly Dalaran and elsewhere, there's afaik never been anything said about how many? But considering how frequent these bondings seem to have become in recent years there's no reason to assume this hasn't happened previously during the THOUSANDS of years humans and elves have interacted, even tho it could be argued the recent calamities suffered by both sides may have made it increase in frequency. For all we know the half-elves have their own small communities and might be willing to join their relatives in their struggle.

Edit: And don't you dare argue for not letting them be warriors ;P My warrior forever-main has wanted to be Quel'dorei for as long as he's existed D:

Extra edit: The fact half-elves would finally be added would of course be a substantial added bonus on it's own. Then Arathor etc could get the models they deserve and those who've specifically wanted half-elves since forever would get what they wanted too. Blizz could even if they so wished go and make part of the silver covenant half-elves, which while borderline retcon might make kind of sense?

[Deleted]

I could see the High Elf = Half Elf aspect being handled like Goblins' (ear+nose+chin) customization, with different ear (and maybe even face shape?) options.

[Zorish]

The only difference for this thread here is that we had simple ground rules. Any design changes do not involve mutating the High Elves into something else, and do not violate the core of who the High Elves are. It's better if the changes fit with established lore, but not strictly required.

I start to see some lack of lore knowledge in you. The moment you say that "Lore, look, ideology, theme... none of these were limiting factors." you can be moved to the gropu "i want elves for the sake having them and i don't care how".

You're right, of course. We're trying to justify changes as an attempt to create a greater difference. But in reality, even with Paladins (or even paladins + shamans) the Blood Elves would have Warlocks, Death Knights, and Demon Hunters. High Elves would have none of these classes, so the class list is different.

for your note. Horde representative in Archeus - Koltira - DIED and actually he is so called "High elf". So my dear your "High elves" are part of Blood elves faction (tell me why if he is "High elf" he didn't gone to Dalaran to join veressa? or maybe alleria elves? Same can go with part of "High elves" returned to their homelands (after/during/before Sunwell events in BC).
And more - the moment you "add the High elves (ancestors please no)" your crowd will start screaming "where is my DK, where is my mages, where is my paladins (whatever class they not have from list)".

Just understand - every concept you trying to pull in this thread CAN and MUST be applied to Blood elves. Because they are even. Their architecture is the same (remnants of it in outlands) with only different color. But because they LIVE with humans they are slowly being assimilated to their ranks. They don't keep being independant as race. they exists only in tandem with humans every time. You can ask for half-elves (because 2 windrunner sisters already have such children, third sister keep human (even dead) "friend" close to her, and i think more "nonamed" elves too), but as "High elves" you CAN'T create something different from Blood elves just because of their 20 years of history and stagnation as INDEPENDENT race. You see? they not developed something to differ them from Blood elves (and they won't till they recive Void elf type of events, wich will end them being "High elves") and they not exists without humans always being in their ranks.

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oh and more - EVEN in warcraft creature who call themself "High elf" is always synonym of "magic attuned". The moment when you take their magic from them - they stop exists as "High elf" and turn into other type of elves (depend of what happened).

[Garfurion]

It would fit the class mechanics. Sunwalkers aren't paladins, they're Sun druids, but they still use the paladin mechanics.
It would be the same thing with High elf shamans.

It could be done according to lore but I'm not a fan of the idea. In Tides of War Jaina steals/borrows a book from Dalaran titled: The Sixth Element: Additional Methods of Arcane Augmentation and Manipulation which had been found and sealed by Antonidas. The author theorized that the arcane was like an element, and that the Focusing Iris had been used once to enslave and control elementals. Jaina used this knowledge to summon and control a tidal wave of water elementals.

However, in Chronicle it is written that Decay (used by Dark Shaman to enslave the elements) is sometimes called the Sixth Element (Spirit used by monks and shaman is the 5th). Not sure if that is a coincidence since the Focusing Iris was an arcane artifact

I think in general the water elementals summoned by mages (bound or unbound) are constructs (e.g. Khadgar's mana elemental in Shattrath) rather than spirit infused elementals although they seem to be able to develop personalities. Lorewise mages were also able to summon/construct other types of elementals.

I think that it would be better if High Elves 3.0 are shown to be more in-tune with the elements and nature rather than trying to control it as Blood Elves do (e.g. keeping Quel'thalas in an perpetual state of spring). It could be another distinction between Blood and High Elves.

The destruction of the Sunwell could have had an effect of the Elves ability to use magic (similar to the problems Night Elves had when they were cutoff from the well of eternity in the War of the Ancients). They could have used their knowledge of elementals to learn how to commune with them and so regain some of their power. The elementals of Azeroth are very chaotic and violent because the world-soul of Azeroth consumed most of the Spirit on the planet. Since Arcane is related to Order (the opposite of Chaos) perhaps the High Elves could use their knowledge of the arcane to sooth/placate Azeroth's elementals, making them less chaotic and in return these soothed elementals could aid them.

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Extra edit: The fact half-elves would finally be added would of course be a substantial added bonus on it's own. Then Arathor etc could get the models they deserve and those who've specifically wanted half-elves since forever would get what they wanted too. Blizz could even if they so wished go and make part of the silver covenant half-elves, which while borderline retcon might make kind of sense?

Arathor uses an Elf model but Alodi uses a human model so they could also be lazy and make it so Half-Elves get to choose their model similar to how Elrond and his brother (Elros I think) could choose their race in LOTR. As an added bonus they could add a third pointy eared human option like Kalecgos uses in humanoid form. Lorewise Half-Elves can use all 3 models.

I don't see Blizzard do this but it would in line with canon lore and they could even argue they seeded the idea in Legion with Ellisande's speech.

Edit:

Half-Elven Ranger Concept Art for Warcraft III
source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Elven_ranger#Third_War

[Deleted]

The problem with restricting Light classes (Priest/Paladin) or arcane (Mage) is that both ideas remove iconic elements from the race. Paladin just removes the least iconic elements. I'm still in the camp of removing the Warrior class. If you want to dual wield a High Elf, play a rogue

Monk is more of a 'nice to have'. It fits their theme, but you don't lose anything 'High Elf' if you drop the Monk class.

Losing Warriors is a great idea. Initially Blood elves couldn't be warriors but if you drop them you have to add Paladins so the race has at least one plate option.

I'm aswell still for shamans it would be a solution to a lot of problems and could destinguish High elves from blood elves a bit more.
And Shamans + Light affinity is no issue, draeneis are doing it aswell.


Monks are a gimick class everyone can be. For some reason even Nightborne can, even though they were locked away for 10k years. So Monks will just be an option because it is for everyone.

Also like you said, they can't be DKs, DHs and Warlocks witch are allready pretty harsh restrictions in terms of no corrupted class. So if they can't be corruped, being a Paladin and Shaman might even work as it is the exact oppsit.

[RangerDaz]

I don't really see why it's necessary to make sure there is a difference between the two races. It just feels like that is adding a restriction, for the sake of there being a restriction. I think there not being any Warlocks HE should be enough, and as far as I know there aren't any High Elf Warlocks.

They could delay it, but I don't feel the reason being too few High Elf Paladins a legitimate excuse either. High Elf Paladins would be part of the same order as Humans and Dwarves, and wouldn't really require any High Elves to train High Elves.

High Elves also didn't get their Holy powers from the Sunwell. They got it the same way as Humans and Dwarves by having faith in it. It is also why Blood Elves lost their Holy powers because they lost faith after Arthas sacked Silvermoon. High Elves would still have their faith in the Light, because they never gave up.

I think it is really important that they are different from each other, especially as they are cross-faction.
Being Tauren and Highmountain Tauren or Draenei and Lightforged Draenei similar to each other is less of a problem because they belong to the same faction than two very similar races cross-faction. And i think Blizzard does want to give a special flavour for each new race, but keep the old ones still relevant.

For example we can see that Lightforged didn't get the shaman class or the highmountain didn't get holy classes.
If we forget about hero classes, even without counting those void elves and nightborne have fewer classes available compared to blood elves and night elves respectively.

I don't think that simply taking out hero and warlock classes from high elves is the solution for the race. Blizzard wants to give a background for each allied race and a relevance in the story, without making them just one more skin for your alt collection or your new race change.

So i still think it is important that Alliance High Elves have a special role on the story and that makes them different from Blood Elves.

Why do Blood Elves and High Elves hate each other? (besides the purge of dalaran and theramore bombing events)
Why have they diverged so much after Arthas invasion?
Why didn't they all merged, but instead some remained on the alliance?
Why do many identify themselves more with the Alliance and accept to make part of the Silver Covenant lead by Vereesa?
Having been physically cut out from the Sunwell, especially after the BC when blood elves took over the sunwell, how has that impacted them?
Have they changed physically or mentally because they are no longer dependant on the sunwell?
Have they needed to change their class specializations to fit their new situation?


All the answers to these questions will define the difference of Alliance High Elves from the Blood Elves. Besides the fel addiction that Blood Elves seemed to have cured after the BC, and the fact that they control the access to the sunwell, i don't see much more effect that could impact their visual differences. Their physical bodies shouldn't have changed much, besides the fel taint the blood elves received.

Blizzard already created a race war between blood elves and void elves, and it matches the holy vs. void theme.
It should be nice for the lore of High Elves if they got a different identity from these two, so all three races will seem unique between each other.

As the sunwell is getting more and more relevance for the blood elves, i believe it is the best way to make High Elves different from Blood Elves, as the non sunwell addicted elves, who survived since warcraft 3 time as military elves (warrior, hunter and rogue) or as dalaran mages, or even learnt to become monks.

Could they become paladins and priests? I believe they could, yes, because they were once. Perhaps they voluntarily gave up the holy classes because of the sunwell, or were they cut off? i honestly can't see yet the best solution to this.

But we know they changed because of the absence from the sunwell, and that should be reflected in their behaviour, especially what makes them feel they are so different from the blood elves that they do not want to mix with them anymore. That identity that keeps them together and makes them stay on the alliance should have an impact on their classes and one their cosmetic differences from blood elves.

[Halefire94]

I think it is really important that they are different from each other, especially as they are cross-faction.
Being Tauren and Highmountain Tauren or Draenei and Lightforged Draenei similar to each other is less of a problem because they belong to the same faction than two very similar races cross-faction. And i think Blizzard does want to give a special flavour for each new race, but keep the old ones still relevant.

For example we can see that Lightforged didn't get the shaman class or the highmountain didn't get holy classes.
If we forget about hero classes, even without counting those void elves and nightborne have fewer classes available compared to blood elves and night elves respectively.

I don't think that simply taking out hero and warlock classes from high elves is the solution for the race. Blizzard wants to give a background for each allied race and a relevance in the story, without making them just one more skin for your alt collection or your new race change.

So i still think it is important that Alliance High Elves have a special role on the story and that makes them different from Blood Elves.

Why do Blood Elves and High Elves hate each other? (besides the purge of dalaran and theramore bombing events)
Why have they diverged so much after Arthas invasion?
Why didn't they all merged, but instead some remained on the alliance?
Why do many identify themselves more with the Alliance and accept to make part of the Silver Covenant lead by Vereesa?
Having been physically cut out from the Sunwell, especially after the BC when blood elves took over the sunwell, how has that impacted them?
Have they changed physically or mentally because they are no longer dependant on the sunwell?
Have they needed to change their class specializations to fit their new situation?


All the answers to these questions will define the difference of Alliance High Elves from the Blood Elves. Besides the fel addiction that Blood Elves seemed to have cured after the BC, and the fact that they control the access to the sunwell, i don't see much more effect that could impact their visual differences. Their physical bodies shouldn't have changed much, besides the fel taint the blood elves received.

Blizzard already created a race war between blood elves and void elves, and it matches the holy vs. void theme.
It should be nice for the lore of High Elves if they got a different identity from these two, so all three races will seem unique between each other.

As the sunwell is getting more and more relevance for the blood elves, i believe it is the best way to make High Elves different from Blood Elves, as the non sunwell addicted elves, who survived since warcraft 3 time as military elves (warrior, hunter and rogue) or as dalaran mages, or even learnt to become monks.

Could they become paladins and priests? I believe they could, yes, because they were once. Perhaps they voluntarily gave up the holy classes because of the sunwell, or were they cut off? i honestly can't see yet the best solution to this.

But we know they changed because of the absence from the sunwell, and that should be reflected in their behaviour, especially what makes them feel they are so different from the blood elves that they do not want to mix with them anymore. That identity that keeps them together and makes them stay on the alliance should have an impact on their classes and one their cosmetic differences from blood elves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Sr-sadSk4

This video sums up everything quite nicely. I would recommend adding it to the OP as well.

I think there is a very strong case, and if we keep pushing Blizzard eventually will at least give us a "non-Void" option for Void Elves.

[Traycor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Sr-sadSk4

This video sums up everything quite nicely. I would recommend adding it to the OP as well.

I think there is a very strong case, and if we keep pushing Blizzard eventually will at least give us a "non-Void" option for Void Elves.

Good point, this should be added to OP. Doing that now.

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Why have they diverged so much after Arthas invasion?
Why didn't they all merged, but instead some remained on the alliance?
Why do many identify themselves more with the Alliance and accept to make part of the Silver Covenant lead by Vereesa?
Having been physically cut out from the Sunwell, especially after the BC when blood elves took over the sunwell, how has that impacted them?
Have they changed physically or mentally because they are no longer dependant on the sunwell?
Have they needed to change their class specializations to fit their new situation?

All excellent questions! It would be great if everyone listed their answers and we could compile some of them.

[bowlink]

Can we cut the Farce here. the only reason blizzard doesn't make high elves playable is because Ion says so and that is it. any argument you make be it numbers, apparent similarities, etc can be explained away if you hold other allied races to the same standard. not having high elves isn't the horde fault. its Ion's. so if you want to blame anyone blame Ion

[Larodar]

Good point, this should be added to OP. Doing that now.

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All excellent questions! It would be great if everyone listed their answers and we could compile some of them.

You are doing a good job mate, keep it up.

[Garfurion]

Why do Blood Elves and High Elves hate each other? (besides the purge of dalaran and theramore bombing events)

Blood Elves were willing to kill living beings to satisfy their hunger for mana, High Elves weren't. Lor'Themar exiled those Elves who refused/resisted/opposed this behavior. Examples of this are the Farstriders that lived in Quel'Lithien Lodge and Vereesa Windrunner.

See for instance the dialog of the Silvermoon Messenger

Silvermoon Messenger says: I bring word from the Regent Lord of Silvermoon.
Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands.
Vereesa Windrunner says: Quel'Thalas is as much my home as it is yours and I would not see it fall to our ancient enemy. Now, you tell your cowardly regent --
Halduron Brightwing says: Vereesa, please!
Halduron Brightwing says: She is here at my invitation, courier. Most of my Farstriders are away and cannot be recalled easily. Vereesa's rangers know the land and are experienced combatants.
Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar does not concur with your reasoning, ranger-general. You have no authority to invite this --
Halduron Brightwing says: I am the commander of Silvermoon's defenses and I will seek assistance as I deem necessary!

It's is understandable that after being exiled from their Homeland, High Elves like Vereesa were reluctant to allow Blood Elves to live in Dalaran (effectively one of their main refuges).

Why have they diverged so much after Arthas invasion?

It's a question how much they diverged really. Perhaps the steps the Blood Elves took to rebuild their society changed them more than it changed the High Elves. As stated above the Blood Elves decided (or were told) that the survive they needed to drain mana from living things. Apparently, Chronicle 3 mentions this actually made them more addicted. You can imagine that going through a famine has a lasting impact on a person and a society.

The Dalaran High Elves were always much more cosmopolitan than the Elves of Quel'thalas. When the sunwell was destroyed they probably got aid from Dalaran mages who created manastones for them. Other High Elves outside of Quel'thalas were mostly Priests and Rangers who suffered less withdrawal symptoms since they were less mana dependent.

As a result the average High Elf will have suffered less than the average Blood Elf and the average Blood Elf will probably have done things they are not too proud off.

Highvale Elves decided to stop practicing magic which must have been a major decision but they are probably a small group.

Why didn't they all merged, but instead some remained on the alliance?

There were High Elves who had stayed with the Alliance after Quel'Thalas withdrew from the Alliance after the second war. They already chose their friends/comrades over the decision of their government.

The High Elves who were exiled (directly or indirectly) hold Lor'Themar responsible for their exile and the consequences.

Rommath hates the Kirin Tor and thus also hates the Kirin Tor/Dalaran High Elves.

Most High Elves have no love for the Horde (e.g. because the Orcs murdered their families in the second war) so they want to stay with the Alliance.

Personally I think if Lor'Themar and Rommath would be replaced with Halduron & Aethas (or another mage) that unification would be possible. Halduron and Vereesa got along quite well in the past.

Why do many identify themselves more with the Alliance and accept to make part of the Silver Covenant lead by Vereesa?

They hate the Horde and feel betrayed by Lor'themar and Rommath.

Having been physically cut out from the Sunwell, especially after the BC when blood elves took over the sunwell, how has that impacted them?

Lor'themar allows High Elf Pilgrims to visit the Sunwell (except the Windrunner sisters and perhaps other Elves directly elixed). However, physical contact with the Sunwell is not needed and none of the High Elves has been cut off from the Sunwell's power. Despite everything Lor'Themar still feels a responsible for all Thalassian Elves.

Have they changed physically or mentally because they are no longer dependant on the sunwell?

Mentally perhaps. Physically only eye colors differences are displayed in game but this is also part game-mechanic.

Have they needed to change their class specializations to fit their new situation?

No.

[Syferite]

Huh? That's some strange mental gymnastics you are doing there, friend.

-Highmountain Tauren are just upgraded tauren.
-Lightforged Draenei are just upgraded Draenei
-Dark Iron Dwarves share almost every theme with the regular dwarves, with a different color pallet
-Nightborne are just a blend of blood elves with the night elf color pallet.
-Mag'har are just different orcs.

They are okay to step on each others feet, as long as the color pallet differs, evidently. That's the pattern I see.

I feel that you're ignoring what makes them stand out. The RP motivation of how AR's work is important, because this is what drives their starting quest lines, their heritage armor, mounts, possible zones etc..

Highmountain Tauren adapted to living in the mountains (instead of plains) and have been blessed by Cenarius. They have a tribal culture vs Kalimdor Tauren's original nomadic culture.

Lightforged Draenei are zealots that undergo trials to purify themselves in the name of the light. They are a lot more religious and devoted compared to normal Draenei.

Dark Iron Dwarves are significantly different from the Bronzebeard and Wildhammer Clans. They were slaves to Ragnaros and have had a much darker history and culture than the others.

Nightborne are Highborne that closed themselves off from the world during the War of the Ancients. They preserved the wonders of Night Elven culture at their prime, and are masters of arcane knowledge.

Mag'har is a compilation of all the various Draenor Orc clans, and even then, there's so much different flavor between each of them.

There's nothing majorly huge about these distinctions, but the key point is how can Blizz make High Elves distinct enough from the Blood Elves. They could make it as simple as a branch of High Elves worship some sort of god/titan/blue aspect and that'd be enough for me because it creates a distinctive new branch that won't intersect with anything else that already exists.