Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

Was it not the HE position that "They can change their minds"? Now all of a sudden they can't? Come now, you're better than that.

Not that I care one way or the other, my position has been from it making sense due to the Arcane aspects of the Sunwell being present still. So I'm curious how they'll handle that.. if at all.

In general, Blizzard can change their mind on anything.

What you're implying here though is that what was said on High Elves and what was said here for Blue Eyed Blood Elves is equal.

They're not. 1) High Elves were never ruled out of ever happening. Answer's have always been "it's possible". 2) Blue Eyed Blood Elves were. Answer was "it doesn't make sense for how they've evolved." No "it's possible" no "anything can happen in the future". That's the biggest difference there.

But I'm not going to constantly agitate people who want to keep requesting for Blue Eyed Blood Elves. Just seems like y'all trying to have some 'gotcha' moment and failing hard.

Go ahead and request for Blue Eyes on Blood Elves all you wish. You won't see me entering those threads, telling people to stop hoping for it, and lord my posts as if I'm the messiah for Blizzard and I understand their every motive. I'm not into that unlike some others.

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After those files that were confused for blue eyes for belfs, I'm very sure we will at least get eye color selection for some, if not all, allied races. I wouldn't be surprised if they get a few new textures (skin and hair colors) as well, as those are quite easy to add. But I doubt we will see anything related to new meshes or geosets, like hair styles or jewelry.

That would seem to be the standard. But like with the blue eyed blood elves thing, I don't want to be celebrating too early and thinking that every race will get eye color selection.

I do think it would be strange for a race to not have it, but we can't be sure till we're at that point.

[Broflake]

In general, Blizzard can change their mind on anything.

What you're implying here though is that what was said on High Elves and what was said here for Blue Eyed Blood Elves is equal.

They're not. 1) High Elves were never ruled out of ever happening. Answer's have always been "it's possible". 2) Blue Eyed Blood Elves were. Answer was "it doesn't make sense for how they've evolved." No "it's possible" no "anything can happen in the future". That's the biggest difference there.

Hold up a second.
Ion stated it rather succinctly with his "The horde is waiting for you" in terms of playing high elves. I cannot agree with this statement by you when you are ignoring what was stated.
Let alone it was also stated by Metzen that the blood elves are WoW's high elves. The notion that platitudes hold greater weight than statements by lead devs is imply seeking to be facetious at best.

But I'm not going to constantly agitate people who want to keep requesting for Blue Eyed Blood Elves. Just seems like y'all trying to have some 'gotcha' moment and failing hard.

Go ahead and request for Blue Eyes on Blood Elves all you wish. You won't see me entering those threads, telling people to stop hoping for it, and lord my posts as if I'm the messiah for Blizzard and I understand their every motive. I'm not into that unlike some others.

It is your prerogative on whether you enter those threads to voice your disagreement. It is not appropriate to suggest others do not have the right to voice their disagreement on your request or passively imply they are wrong in anyway to do so. If you desire a place where you need not see those who disagree with you, there are plenty of other outlets that provide this for you.
This thread is about the high elves, and this includes being for, or against them.

That would seem to be the standard. But like with the blue eyed blood elves thing, I don't want to be celebrating too early and thinking that every race will get eye color selection.

I do think it would be strange for a race to not have it, but we can't be sure till we're at that point.

Look, as it stands, many things are put into the game that are never enabled for players even though they are applied to NPC's. Them choosing not to make it a feature for players simply looks to me as an attempt to avoid a vocal complaint by helfers.
If, however, you disagree on this notion and support the idea it is to protect the aesthetics of the void elves who have blue eyes, then it enforces the view void elves will never get lighter skins.
Which trashes the notion of those who say it is about lore when they request a feature that is unsupported by lore, and unsupported by the aesthetics argument pushed forth by the devs.

[FlubberPuddy]

Just seems like y'all trying to have some 'gotcha' moment and failing hard.

I seem to have been right about this based on the replies I recently got.

[Broflake]

Ah, the "I have nothing to say, but wanna feel as though I have something to say, while presenting myself from a higher ground" remark.. neat. No worries Pen, I'll leave you be.

As far as I see it, its just an enforcement of status quo. Which is bad for the helf demand.

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm confused, what ideal? A big reason many people don't like Void Elves is exactly because they are/were Blood Elves, and still remain much closer to Blood Elves than High Elves are in all but superficial aspects. And even if some of the High Elves were to turn Void Elves that would also mean for them to become more like Blood Elves, which is why many people aren't happy with that option other.

Also, if the Kul Tiran pirates had a lengthy history with the Horde and stick around for another 15 years, continually popping up to aid the horde in various circumstances then yeah, that'd definitely justify the Horde being allowed to play as them.

People who don't like Void Elves because they are/were Blood Elves don't really have much of a leg to stand on. Blood Elves after all are High Elves. The big difference between Blood Elves and the exiles remains the exile's political opinion after all. If an exile were to get sick of being away from home and start to think that maybe Lor'themar and the others had a point, they would move much closer to being like a Blood Elf simply by modifying their opinion.

And if, as seems likely, Void Elves can turn other elves into Void Elves, that is an alliance aligned elf throwing his lot in with other alliance aligned elves, physically changing but retaining his history as an always pro Alliance elf. It seems weird to argue that the physical transformation which moves them away from being a Blood/high elf actually moves them closer whilst glossing over that in their heart of heart's, that exile could be much closer to being like a Blood Elf than playable Void Elves could ever be.

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Honestly people like Obelisk Kai should just be muted. Mod was clear that this is supposed to be a threat were we lay out ideas on how high elves could be introduced into the game, NOT a thread to bash helfers -- which is what Obelisk Kai has been doing nonstop since the beginning.

You cannot respond to this. But I have seen this sentiment crop up from to time to time so I will address it.

When this thread was created there were multiple high elf debate threads on the go at the same time. All were closed and debate consolidated into this thread once it was designated as the megathread. Nobody is saying you can't have the thread's original purpose discussed here, but ALL relevant conversation must take place in this thread.

This request is not uncontroversial. It is not without cost to other people if granted. Opposition to this request should continue to be voiced. And to say that only the original intent of thread needs to be honoured misses the point of what a megathread is meant to accomplish.

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Ignoring would be the most sensible option yes. Sometimes there's just statements made that are easy to point out as weak/obtuse, so pointing those out helps show the frank bias as well.

But given that people who are neutral have come into this thread to celebrate the news that Ion said because it disappointed certain users, kind of hits the point home about how certain posters have portrayed themselves.

This is hypocrisy. And I am not stating that as an insult, I am stating it as demonstrable fact. You have taken two similar scenarios and are treating them differently based upon your own biases. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

For two years you have argued that Ion's definitive statement that Blood Elves are High Elves and that the Horde is waiting for you should you want to play that kind of Elf is incorrect.

When Ion says something you like, you have rushed to defend it as an absolute truth. None of the mental gymnastics you have applied to every single statement on this topic, whether direct or tangential, has been employed. This one statement above all others is correct, without any further need of parsing or interrogation from your perspective. And it is this way because you happen to agree with it.

You cannot therefore lecture other people about this arguments being weak or obtuse, as you have demonstrated a lack of principle in regards to your own. Namely, you process information according to whether you already agree with it or not. And if you don't agree with it, you over-rationalise until you find a way of making it fit.

Blood Elves have moved beyond blue eyes. This is now fact.

The Horde is waiting for you if you want to play a traditional high elf. This is also fact.

Neither statement contradicts the other. Both are true.

[Frenchvince]

Wishful thinking. He just said they're for NPCs. He also said in the same response that it's possible to take any assets and textures and apply them to different models. So for all we know, these blue eyes might be applied to other race NPCs. For instance we see Worgen and undead with new glowing eye colors, so there's a good chance that the different blue eye shades are for a variety of races and not just elves.

These eyes are identical to those of the void elves but I would not be surprised if they are for high-elf NPCs.
For now in the alpha the high-elf NPCs have no eyes, they are being updated.

We are going to wait wisely for the build that will update the high-elf NPCs because if they have several shades of blue for their eyes, they could perhaps eventually become an allied race in the future rather than a customization for the EVs.

[The Silver Covenant]

This request is not uncontroversial. It is not without cost to other people if granted.

There would be no negative impact or cost to any Warcraft player if High Elves were added for the Alliance. In fact, the only people currently losing out on being able to play their own faction's race in this situation are Alliance players waiting to finally experience the High Elf fantasy that World of Warcraft promised them — to experience Warcraft from the perspective of their favorite races and RTS units (classes) — when it was announced.

Everything you write about this topic is ridiculous.

[Obelisk Kai]

You are saying what I'm laying out. You're just trying to use wordplay to make it seem like you are not.

The use of the term wordplay, which has become something of a buzzword, is an attempt to say I am confusing matters through my verbosity. I like to think of it as presenting my thoughts as accurately as possible. After all, people have been known to interpret 'anything is possible' as 'everything I have said in the last two minutes doesn't count', so I feel accuracy is important.

How can you be saying anything different when you are going, "look at the datamining now, we don't see examples A B C, therefore they're following an established principle that denied my precious blood elves from getting blue eyes!"

Ion literally was talking about, and he mentioned it at Blizzcon as well in that recent interview, how they're just sorry it has taken so long. That they "have the technology now".

Aka, this is some fresh system that we're at the beginning of seeing. And you're trying to justify that because datamining doesn't currently show those options, they're following a principle that won't let those options be?

Exactly, because one of the options present is being denied on the basis of the lore. That establishes a parameter, which is echoed by Danuser being called up to review the proposals to ensure they didn't violate lore. That none did shows they are approaching this new system conservatively right now and are colouring within the lines rather than outside it. After all, if blue eyes for Blood Elves isn't happening because it 'violates the lore' then I am pretty sure that same Blood Elf looking like a San'layn has the same effect except on a far greater scale.

There is no need to break the parameters of what a race is currently understood to be when there are plentiful new customization options available simply by filling in obvious and more natural gaps.

You realize that they've repeatedly said what you'll see is 'initial character customization' updates towards the end of april, and that more are coming. REPEATEDLY.

Which in itself is likely a reference to what is present on the actual alpha and what has been datamined. Yes, more is definitely coming in both cases, but what is on the alpha is significantly behind what has been datamined. There are a substantial number of skins that have now been found across multiple races. Yet not one of these skins does what you said new customisation would allow you to do, ignore lore entirely.

That was the weakness of your free form interpretation of the Moorgard interview, you leapt to the conclusion that because he said you could headcanon what you wish that there were no barriers. Except, the context of his response was in regards to the already known Troll and Dwarf options. And those options are entirely consistent with existing Dwarves and Trolls rather than entirely new races, races deserving of their own sets of customisations and capable of being full allied races in their own right, being shoehorned onto another existing race.

So yeah, you're pretty much not happy over blood elves not getting blue eyes and are trying to 'extrapolate that rationale' as to why other races won't get any other examples you've mentioned all because 'they're not in the datamining right here and now'.

You are using the argument "we don't see it right now so it will not ever happen". Whether you want to own up to that shitty argument or not is up to you.

No, I am using that argument for the current set of characters customisations. And all datamined content so far supports the principle, that character customisations make sense with the race in question. A Wildhammer Dwarf is biologically identical to a Bronzebeard Dwarf, they merely live in different regions but they can share the same racials, theme and aesthetic. A Wildhammer Dwarf being expressed through the core Dwarf race is therefore fine. Same for a Revantusk Troll. And as Moorgard said, it is up to the individual to headcanon their explanation for background.

But there are limits. And that is allowing one race to pretend to be another. A Dwarf can't pretend to be a Dark Iron Dwarf after all as that is lore breaking.

1) Character customization updates for Shadowlands isn't over

And yet not one option from the hundreds datamined support your core assertion that the lore is no longer a factor in terms of character customization. Each option is fully consistent with the race.

2) Ion laments it's taken them this long

Why is this even a point? People have been begging for increased customisations for years. People were asking for blue eyes for Blood Elves for years too. Yet even though they have the technology, blood elves aren't getting blue eyes because they've determined that goes against the lore. Void Elves who aren't void elves seems to go against the lore too.

3) Ion says character customization will never end, and they want to continue to increase the options for people to express themselves through their characters.

Yep which is why I am sure that, in the likely event you are left entirely unsatisfied by the results of Void Elf customisations, you'll simply revert to saying high elves are coming in the next set of Allied races or that they'll come in the next wave of character customisations. But one expansion at a time please.

Those hard facts destroy your 'extrapolated rationale'. And it's funny you still try to extrapolate a rationale seeing as that's what led to people thinking Blood Elves should have blue eyes (extrapolating commentary about their fel eyes) and that's backfired brilliantly.

What hard facts? That was you stating broad generalities everyone accepts and then saying they prove you right.

So I'd caution you to be wary of 'extrapolating rationales', but you do you mate. Not gonna bother with this line of discussion because you're using a giant leap of logic just after your former leap of logic backfired. Doesn't look good for ya.

You are literally arguing that your own request is going to be treated as a special case by Blizzard when all available evidence points to them not wishing to undermine the lore of the existing races. And the sole reason you clearly think that is because you want it.

I'll end it with noting that the Blue Eyes Blood Elves statement was an explicit statement ("it doesn't make sense for how they've evolved"), he also admitted those eye options are for the NPCs, and what's been said on High Elves multiple times now needs no concern over what was said about Blue Eyed Blood Elves.

In no way does Blood Elves not getting blue eyes contradict the earlier assertion that Blood Elves are High Elves and the Horde is waiting for you. The 2018 statement after all was made when all we had were green eyes, so all that has happened is a reinforcement of the status quo. Both statements are true. You however will hold up that Blood Elves can't get blue eyes without questions whilst arguing every other statement that hasn't agreed with you. That is your hypocrisy.

So therefore what's happening to Blood Elves =/= it's happening to High Elves. This further reinforces that they're different and reinforces the High Elf request.

1) Ion: Anything's possible, but no plans in the near term

Anything is possible has been demonstrated to be a verbal tic of Ion's, a platitude he tosses in. He said it to Preach after Preach asked about master looting coming back, and Preach got the clear message that that was a no.

2) Afrasiabi: It's possible High Elf fantasy comes through Void Elf customizations

Which is the sole reason the notion has even been entertained. The principle of not violating the lore of a race seems to trump the supposed popularity of the request. And 'possible' does not mean 'promise'. They've now had that time to think since he made that comment. What we are seeing so far does not seem to be promising for you.

3) Ion on showfloor: Just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in WoW ever, the door hasn't closed.

A conversation reported by a pro High Elfer who was summarising, we which can't examine. Even if the jist of the conversation was accurate, it broadly reflected what was said in the statement earlier that year. Except he was talking to someone and being nice about it.

All statements that support potentially High Elves later in the future. I'm fine with however they decide to implement High Elves as an Alliance option as long as I get to play my always loyal to Alliance Blue Eyed Elves.

All statements you have taken entirely out of context or misrepresented to fit your own interpretation. And you can play a blue eyed alliance loyal elf by playing a Void Elf so once again, you are denying you.

Here's more proof of the "it's not in now so it won't ever be" as you're literally saying it right there.

But in this case since we're talking about racial leaders and Sylvanas isn't the racial leader of the Forsaken anymore then there is a point here. Because you know what's happened since?

They've made Lillian the Forsaken leader in the meantime, and Lillian simply looks like pretty much every female Forsaken except with glowy blue eyes. Now while datamining is datamining and not 'this is what we'll get'. We do see that there is potential for Female Forsaken to get glowy blue eyes.

Thus looking like their leader: Lillian Voss.



https://www.wowhead.com/news=312537/...ds-speculation

Ofc all speculation. But as I've said previously, they appear to be adding in customization options that allow players to emulate their racial leader. We won't really know until they finally put them into the game, but datamining has been showing lots of new potential character customization files with a lot having options for looking like your racial leader (Lor'themar eye scar, Genn's white werewolf fur, Lillian Voss Eye color, etc).

Looking like your leader isn't really a criteria. It's a sentiment that has been hyped up in this thread in an attempt to portray looking like Alleria as a reasonable expectation for Void Elf players, obfuscating of course that Alleria with her Void form off is almost indistinguishable from a Blood Elf.

If the principle were true AND absolute, then Mecha Gnomes should be demanding the option to look like their leader King Mekkatorque. I doubt that's going to happen, as reattaching those severed arms, legs and eyes after so long isn't feasible.

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There would be no negative impact or cost to any Warcraft player if High Elves were added for the Alliance. In fact, the only people currently losing out on being able to play their own faction's race in this situation are Alliance players waiting to finally experience the High Elf fantasy that World of Warcraft promised them — to experience Warcraft from the perspective of their favorite races and RTS units (classes) — when it was announced.

Everything you write about this topic is ridiculous.

Undermining the two faction system in a faction based and undermining the Blood Elf status as the traditional high elf option is a negative impact. Just because you don't care about it does not mean the cost does not exist.

And please, 'everything I write about this topic is ridiculous?'. Aren't you the guy who says a nearly dead bunch of exiles holed up in a neutral city are THE core race of the Alliance? Because there I was thinking it was Humans, what with the supreme leader of the Alliance being a Human, the biggest Alliance city being Human, multiple Human nations within the Alliance, them being the most numerous NPCs within the Alliance, most of the important characters in the Alliance being Human...

But sure, the exiles are the core of the Alliance.

And the Hozen are the core of the Horde. Ook-Ook-Ogar!

[Frenchvince]

But sure, the exiles are the core of the Alliance.

They have been, still are and will continue to be.

The opposite is your truth, You are in denial, it is your choice ...

[Obelisk Kai]

They have been, still are and will continue to be.

The opposite is your truth, You are in denial, it is your choice ...

No, seriously they really aren't.

[Frenchvince]

No, seriously they really aren't.

Blizzard continues the story of the high elves with more or less presence since wow vanilla but they are still there, they are part of the alliance and always have been.

So for me this is the only truth to take into account.

[Uthan]

People who don't like Void Elves because they are/were Blood Elves don't really have much of a leg to stand on. Blood Elves after all are High Elves. The big difference between Blood Elves and the exiles remains the exile's political opinion after all. If an exile were to get sick of being away from home and start to think that maybe Lor'themar and the others had a point, they would move much closer to being like a Blood Elf simply by modifying their opinion.

And if, as seems likely, Void Elves can turn other elves into Void Elves, that is an alliance aligned elf throwing his lot in with other alliance aligned elves, physically changing but retaining his history as an always pro Alliance elf. It seems weird to argue that the physical transformation which moves them away from being a Blood/high elf actually moves them closer whilst glossing over that in their heart of heart's, that exile could be much closer to being like a Blood Elf than playable Void Elves could ever be.

As much of a leg to stand on as you, seeing as it's all subjective ^^

[Obelisk Kai]

As much of a leg to stand on as you, seeing as it's all subjective ^^

Not really. Void Elves are physically transformed, hence the different skin tone range, different eye colours, different racials and optional tentacles.

Exiles and Blood Elves are physically identical.

It is therefore incorrect to state that becoming a Void Elf moves one closer to being a Blood Elf, particularly when that differentiation was the entire point behind creating Void Elves. You don't get closer to somewhere by moving further away from it after all.

[Uthan]

Not really. Void Elves are physically transformed, hence the different skin tone range, different eye colours, different racials and optional tentacles.

Exiles and Blood Elves are physically identical.

It is therefore incorrect to state that becoming a Void Elf moves one closer to being a Blood Elf, particularly when that differentiation was the entire point behind creating Void Elves. You don't get closer to somewhere by moving further away from it after all.

If you only care about one small aspect, ie the physical, sure. But there's a lot more to it than that.

[Obelisk Kai]

If you only care about one small aspect, ie the physical, sure. But there's a lot more to it than that.

Yet the mental is not the basis for an allied race candidate. Defias Brotherhood Humans maybe belong to a separate organisation than Stormwind Humans, but the they are still biologically identical to all other Humans from Stormwind. A Human option is in the game, but the absolute criteria is that your human serves Stormwind and the Alliance.

Void Elves serve the Alliance. They maybe former Blood Elves truculent about their circumstances, or bitter towards their former home or they maybe former silver covenant exiles who have elected to wield the power of the void to demonstrate their commitment to the cause of the Alliance, but that entire mental realm is encapsulated in your own story for your own Void Elf.

[Uthan]

Yet the mental is not the basis for an allied race candidate. Defias Brotherhood Humans maybe belong to a separate organisation than Stormwind Humans, but the they are still biologically identical to all other Humans from Stormwind. A Human option is in the game, but the absolute criteria is that your human serves Stormwind and the Alliance.

Changing the subject a bit but regardless, the Kul Tirans prove that false anyhow. Theirs is a purely cultural difference from Stormwindians, and Blizzard then limiting the player model to buff dudes to have there be a physical difference, despite the Kul Tirans being just regular humans (and the majority of them still shown as such) with even less difference than between High Elves and Blood Elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Changing the subject a bit but regardless, the Kul Tirans prove that false anyhow. Theirs is a purely cultural difference from Stormwindians, and Blizzard then limiting the player model to buff dudes to have there be a physical difference, despite the Kul Tirans being just regular humans (and the majority of them still shown as such) with even less difference than between High Elves and Blood Elves.

Whilst the particulars of the Kul Tirans you can play as are subject to debate over whether their bulk is the product of environmental factors (they have been separated from the mainland for over two thousand years) or whether they are throwbacks to the Vry'kul they cohabited with for a time, the more important point is you accidentally raised are the Kul Tirans you can't play as. Those indistinguishable from other Humans. The reason they aren't playable is obvious, the ordinary Human model is already available.

Would they qualify as an allied race all by themselves due to their 'different mental state', despite being absolutely identical in every other respect to other Humans?

[Uthan]

Whilst the particulars of the Kul Tirans you can play as are subject to debate over whether their bulk is the product of environmental factors (they have been separated from the mainland for over two thousand years) or whether they are throwbacks to the Vry'kul they cohabited with for a time, the more important point is you accidentally raised are the Kul Tirans you can't play as. Those indistinguishable from other Humans. The reason they aren't playable is obvious, the ordinary Human model is already available.

Would they qualify as an allied race all by themselves due to their 'different mental state', despite being absolutely identical in every other respect to other Humans?

If Kul Tirans were part of the Horde, yes (a few different customisation options unique to their culture would be more than enough to set them apart).

[Obelisk Kai]

If Kul Tirans were part of the Horde, yes (a few different customisation options unique to their culture would be more than enough to set them apart).

Which is what justifies Void Elves on the Alliance funnily enough, a few distinct customisation options unique to their new culture.

But I was talking about the non massive Kul Tiran Humans within the Alliance, who have nothing setting them apart from Stormwind humans except being Kul Tiran. They aren't playable because it would be redundant to make the same option available again. And the option being on one faction but unavailable to the other isn't a rationale to make it cross faction, it shows that there are elements attractive to all people on both sides of the divide, proving the system is working.

After all, as Hazzikostas said in regards to Covenants and which can be applied to faction as well, given how much he lauded the importance of factions in the past year, choice matters.

[Shiza]

If we're going by the narrative then the gnomes and dwarves present far than thehigh elves ever had in literature and game representation combined. The high elves werent a central presence of dalaran because the narrative of dalaran is through the kirin tor and other inhabitants which are more than just high elves. There is no high elf narrative where they are the focus of the story themselves. Even in MoP, it is about what Jaina was doing, and it is why Jaina is referenced for the purge and not the high elves.
There is no period where you have a high elf story. It is always about how they interact with their kin the blood elves. Let alone I disagree with blaming the dvelopers for the presence of high elves. They have no responsibility on how people react to them being int he story, nor should they consider it a factor. Astory is a story. If high elves appear, cool, but it means nothing towards being responsible for others response or desires.

Dont claim experience on how long you've played. Suggesting gnomes and dwarves, who are the backbone of the alliance are anything less to high elves is just not paying attention.

When where the Gnomes ever a backbone to the Alliance before Battle for Azeroth? Outside of their starting experience and a few camps and quests here and there, they were barely present. Hell, before Dazar'alore, there last moment of real screentime was in the one liberation event at the end of Wrath of the Lichking. And I'm certainly blaming the Devs and nobody else, stop making defenses for Blizzard. Blood Elves are the most popular model in the entire game. When Blizz is constantly showing High Elves off and pushes this race in an alliance alligned version into the faces of Alliance players, it is natural that they have the desire to play them.