1. #16761
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Or, IDK, DK's are the exception since they have their own very specific aesthetic? It's just more likely that DK aesthetic takes precedence over others? See: every race that gets to be a DK. DK are not supposed in any way, shape or form to represent their race, they are quite literally outliers.
    I would agree with you if it wasn't for the matter that for allied races such as Zandalari, the differences are minimal if not non-existent. There are also both blood elves and high elves which use those DK eyes. So I am unsure if they really cared about it until recently.
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I mean if it actually works for 3-4 races it's just not a mistake, just badly implemented.
    It really only works for Vulpera and the Zandalari in terms of being...well...different.
    Kul tirans are very different, even a brand new model, but because they are human you just interpret it as "oh its another strongman."


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Nah mate, the point I'm making is that NB and NE females are very similar model wise and it is indeed the animation what makes the difference between them. It's irrelevant if the males are more different, because i'm literally talking about how animations make enough difference by themselves.
    Similar? Yes.
    Noticeably different? Yes.
    Now let's look at where animations are irrelevant.
    Zandalari female and a troll female.
    Just reskins.
    Different dance animations.
    If you had logged into the game and saw the two models dancing side by side, but differently, you would not know which is which without being informed before hand. This is literally how irrelevant animations are, they come after the fact, and are not used as a means of differentiation because every race you use in this game is a humanoid and capable of the same movements.
    This is literally how the brain is hardwired dude.
    We don't care about animation of the body outside of determining if its male or female.
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You can disagree with that statement, but I can't believe you are being genuine when you say you can see a "clear" differentiation on proportions between NE and NB, all I am seeing is thighs and ears man, c'mon.
    I can disagree because of science and game design. Animations mean nothing.
    People STILL think that the zandalari male troll uses a night elf model because of the way they both wave, even though the two use different models. Animations don't create racial differences.
    The actual race itself is the difference.
    No one goes "i know its a nightborne because he stands different from a night elf", he goes "thats a nightborne because of his anorexic and terribly proportiioned body."
    They go "thats a nightborne female because her ears and body proportions are different" not "SHE STANDS WITH HER KNEE EVER SO SLIGHTLY BENT!"

    poses mean nothing dude.

    In the era where animations needed to be done cheap such as everquest, the only reason you knew an orc was an orc was because he looked like an orc.
    Height was different.
    You know...appearances and proportions, not animations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Not taking sides here but... unless you work for Blizzard (and actually have a say in the matter) that's not really your decision to make now is it? It's one thing to argue why you don't feel something should be implemented. It's quite another to speak as if you have some position of authority to decide such things.
    Yeah that argument of authority doesn't work. It is literally part of the very design that Blizzard itself touts.
    There is no race in the game that balls in a second race to it.
    In fact no one in the gaming industry does this.
    It makes things muddled, its confusing, its a pain in the backside to code, and its a bad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    If Blizzard ever decided they wanted to make an allied race that mixes both High Elf and Half-Elf aesthetics to emphasize how the High Elf bloodline has been diluted (as we are often told), then they could very well do so and justify it however they see fit.
    This isn't what someone is asking for.
    They are asking for a high elf and a half elf aesthetic as SEPERATE.

    Let alone that once you dilute the blood, its not a high elf anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Unrelated to the above point, as far as what Half-Elves might look like, it don't think it would be Kalec's humanoid form. His model is just a human body with a unique (and quite old and low res) face texture. But neither should Half-Elves look like Arator who currently just uses a Thalassian Elf model even though he's actually a Half-Elf. If Half-Elves were ever implemented, I'd imagine Blizzard would create a new model for them using elements of both the Human and Thalassian elf models and adjust existing Half-Elf npc's (Arator, Alodi, and Kalec) to use those new models.

    If it were up to me to design Half-Elves in WoW, I'd use the human model as a base, slim down the proportions a bit (especially on the males) so they are bigger than Thalassians, but smaller than Humans, pointed ears but much shorter than the Thalassian model, give them a unique idle stance, base their faces on (but not make them identical to) the Thalassian textures, add some unique new hairstyles, borrom some hairstyles from humans, and give them standard (non-glowing) eyes. This would allow Half-Elves a distinct look that allows for some visible ancestry of both parent races. and yet still be something new and distinguishable from both the Human and Thalassian Elf models.
    I agree with the idea.
    Frankly though, I just see people saying "roll them up as one" as both greedy, lazy, and detracting from an opportunity to take advantage of the high elf legacy.

  2. #16762
    Quote Originally Posted by Broflake View Post
    No, it isn't, half elves represent the union of high elf and human or high elf and X. It is nothing in regards to high elves, and the half elves themselves are rare. You can't have two different races rolled into one. If that racial box says high elf, then its high elf. If it says half elf, then its a half elf and should look like Kalec. You don't get to have two races in one, it doesn't make sense.
    Maghar orc clans are still orcs, just with different skin tones. They are still the base race of orc. They aren't nearly close to what you are requesting, unless you're trying to suggest being a different clan somehow means they are a different race.
    The half-elves are not a race, they are hybrids, I don't think it could be a playable race as such, but hey, you never know, we have the void elves...

    The example of mag'har is exactly the same as for dwarfs or trolls. This is the idea I find interesting, that of adding several clans, parent race or variants for the same skeleton.
    There may very well be the same with the half-elf hybrid variant, for them it's just smaller pointy ears.

    Concerning the physique, the half-elves should have a less massive human physique, like that of Wrathion, therefore thalassian.

    As I said, adding the half-elves would be a plus for the personalization of the high-elves, they are part of their history anyway.

  3. #16763
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Not taking sides here but... unless you work for Blizzard (and actually have a say in the matter) that's not really your decision to make now is it? It's one thing to argue why you don't feel something should be implemented. It's quite another to speak as if you have some position of authority to decide such things.

    If Blizzard ever decided they wanted to make an allied race that mixes both High Elf and Half-Elf aesthetics to emphasize how the High Elf bloodline has been diluted (as we are often told), then they could very well do so and justify it however they see fit.

    Unrelated to the above point, as far as what Half-Elves might look like, it don't think it would be Kalec's humanoid form. His model is just a human body with a unique (and quite old and low res) face texture. But neither should Half-Elves look like Arator who currently just uses a Thalassian Elf model even though he's actually a Half-Elf. If Half-Elves were ever implemented, I'd imagine Blizzard would create a new model for them using elements of both the Human and Thalassian elf models and adjust existing Half-Elf npc's (Arator, Alodi, and Kalec) to use those new models.

    If it were up to me to design Half-Elves in WoW, I'd use the human model as a base, slim down the proportions a bit (especially on the males) so they are bigger than Thalassians, but smaller than Humans, pointed ears but much shorter than the Thalassian model, give them a unique idle stance, base their faces on (but not make them identical to) the Thalassian textures, add some unique new hairstyles, borrom some hairstyles from humans, and give them standard (non-glowing) eyes. This would allow Half-Elves a distinct look that allows for some visible ancestry of both parent races. and yet still be something new and distinguishable from both the Human and Thalassian Elf models.
    I think Wrathion's new model is also the new standard for a Half-Elf model. He looks Thalassian in the face, but his build is more human and his ears are not long and pointy.

  4. #16764
    Quote Originally Posted by Broflake View Post
    I would agree with you if it wasn't for the matter that for allied races such as Zandalari, the differences are minimal if not non-existent. There are also both blood elves and high elves which use those DK eyes. So I am unsure if they really cared about it until recently.
    This is entirely irrelevant. The point is simply that DK aesthetic exists as its own thing regardless of race. They are all unified as undead because of their glowing eyes, it means little in terms of what their races look like -like how VE and BE DK's look like the same race literally.-

    It really only works for Vulpera and the Zandalari in terms of being...well...different.
    Kul tirans are very different, even a brand new model, but because they are human you just interpret it as "oh its another strongman."
    But the model of the KT's is still different, noticeably so. And if you count NB and VE because they allow cross choice to a degree, something previously unabailable on each side.


    Similar? Yes.
    Noticeably different? Yes.
    Now let's look at where animations are irrelevant.
    Zandalari female and a troll female.
    Just reskins.
    Different dance animations.
    If you had logged into the game and saw the two models dancing side by side, but differently, you would not know which is which without being informed before hand. This is literally how irrelevant animations are, they come after the fact, and are not used as a means of differentiation because every race you use in this game is a humanoid and capable of the same movements.
    This is literally how the brain is hardwired dude.
    We don't care about animation of the body outside of determining if its male or female.

    I can disagree because of science and game design. Animations mean nothing.
    People STILL think that the zandalari male troll uses a night elf model because of the way they both wave, even though the two use different models. Animations don't create racial differences.
    The actual race itself is the difference.
    No one goes "i know its a nightborne because he stands different from a night elf", he goes "thats a nightborne because of his anorexic and terribly proportiioned body."
    They go "thats a nightborne female because her ears and body proportions are different" not "SHE STANDS WITH HER KNEE EVER SO SLIGHTLY BENT!"

    poses mean nothing dude.

    In the era where animations needed to be done cheap such as everquest, the only reason you knew an orc was an orc was because he looked like an orc.
    Height was different.
    You know...appearances and proportions, not animations.
    This whole point is just not accurate since Nightborne females literally rely on a different animation to be deemed visually distinct from NE's. Their model differences simply do not account for enough difference, c'mon.

    You can't say "positions mean nothing" when the different idle pose is quite obviously the main Nightborne difference besides ears -because again, the proportions difference is negligible-

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    The half-elves are not a race, they are hybrids, I don't think it could be a playable race as such, but hey, you never know, we have the void elves...

    The example of mag'har is exactly the same as for dwarfs or trolls. This is the idea I find interesting, that of adding several clans, parent race or variants for the same skeleton.
    There may very well be the same with the half-elf hybrid variant, for them it's just smaller pointy ears.

    Concerning the physique, the half-elves should have a less massive human physique, like that of Wrathion, therefore thalassian.

    As I said, adding the half-elves would be a plus for the personalization of the high-elves, they are part of their history anyway.
    Personally I do think Half Elves could be a "race", because in WoW race is already a vague terminology at best. Also I do like they have already an Horde counterpart with the Mok'nathal.

  5. #16765
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    I think Wrathion's new model is also the new standard for a Half-Elf model. He looks Thalassian in the face, but his build is more human and his ears are not long and pointy.
    I think those opposed to playable Alliance High Elves still might take issue if thats how hypothetical Half-Elves were implemented. While his hair and clothes make him distinct, strip him naked (rawr!), take away his unique hair and he's basically a Thalassian sans the ears. Still... A unique idle, human hairstyles, and human/non-glowy eyes might be enough to make it work. I guess it's all just theory until Blizzard decides to explore in that direction (if ever).

  6. #16766
    The fact the some people who are vehemently against High Elves are suggesting Half-Elves instead is, frankly, funny.

  7. #16767
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddi2 View Post
    The fact the some people who are vehemently against High Elves are suggesting Half-Elves instead is, frankly, funny.
    Why should it be? The objection to High Elves is based on the fact that Blood Elves are high elves, and as such making that race available to the Alliance diminishes the unique identity of the Blood Elves and undermines the integrity of the Horde by sharing that race with the Alliance.

    Half Elves are not high elves. They have a high elf lineage, but they also have a human lineage. Were they to be implemented, they would offer an entirely new experience and almost certainly an entirely new theme and aesthetic for the Alliance (probably a new model) whilst critically not being a duplicate.

    So long as what is asked for is not a duplicate of what the other faction has, anyone can be free to ask for what they want. The exiles however are a duplicate, they can never escape being a duplicate, and all the suggestions of how they could be 'varied' from Blood Elves fall apart when you see how certain quarters reacted to the Void Elves. That was a group who were genuinely varied from the high elf ideal embodied by the Blood Elves and the cry has been 'they aren't what we asked for'.
    High Elves cannot be varied without changing from the ideal. You cannot reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is not round.

    What was asked for is a duplicate, which triggers the opposition to the request and Blizzard's own expressed red lines.

    Half Elves would do neither.

  8. #16768
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddi2 View Post
    The fact the some people who are vehemently against High Elves are suggesting Half-Elves instead is, frankly, funny.
    This.

    High elves everywhere in Wow : sorry but they are dying and not enough numerous to make them playable.

    3 half elves recorded. We don't even know if they can reproduce :

    They should be totally playable!!!
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  9. #16769
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Why should it be? The objection to High Elves is based on the fact that Blood Elves are high elves, and as such making that race available to the Alliance diminishes the unique identity of the Blood Elves and undermines the integrity of the Horde by sharing that race with the Alliance.

    Half Elves are not high elves. They have a high elf lineage, but they also have a human lineage. Were they to be implemented, they would offer an entirely new experience and almost certainly an entirely new theme and aesthetic for the Alliance (probably a new model) whilst critically not being a duplicate.

    So long as what is asked for is not a duplicate of what the other faction has, anyone can be free to ask for what they want. The exiles however are a duplicate, they can never escape being a duplicate, and all the suggestions of how they could be 'varied' from Blood Elves fall apart when you see how certain quarters reacted to the Void Elves. That was a group who were genuinely varied from the high elf ideal embodied by the Blood Elves and the cry has been 'they aren't what we asked for'.
    High Elves cannot be varied without changing from the ideal. You cannot reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is not round.

    What was asked for is a duplicate, which triggers the opposition to the request and Blizzard's own expressed red lines.

    Half Elves would do neither.
    Look, Obelisk, I am not going to debate with you. You are disingenuous. You would argue that the Earth is flat if it supported the position that the High Elves can't be playable.

  10. #16770
    Half-elves are human / high-elf hybrids, they should / could be a customization option for humans and high-elves.
    That will make more diversity, but before that, the high-elves must be available as playable race.

  11. #16771
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    This is entirely irrelevant. The point is simply that DK aesthetic exists as its own thing regardless of race. They are all unified as undead because of their glowing eyes, it means little in terms of what their races look like -like how VE and BE DK's look like the same race literally.-
    This dismissive argument does not work as I went into further detail explaining why.
    VE and BE DK's look almost the same, but the tentacles and skin tones create a rather stark difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    But the model of the KT's is still different, noticeably so. And if you count NB and VE because they allow cross choice to a degree, something previously unabailable on each side.
    I am not discounting KT in terms of being different. Merely that people's perception was "oh its just a big human" because well, we're all human. If it had been the same model, but with giant teeth and marketed as Drukari or something, people would have thought it a new race. Tiny differences do big things.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    This whole point is just not accurate since Nightborne females literally rely on a different animation to be deemed visually distinct from NE's. Their model differences simply do not account for enough difference, c'mon.
    Their standing animations are nearly exact if not exact because they are a palette swap with an ear switch. Animations do not make much of a difference because the very first thing highlighted in terms of their appearance is presented in the character menu.
    You're trying to argue that basic game design relies on animations as a method of dictating differnt races when it really does not.
    Look at games such as Elderscrolls where everyone uses the exact same animation. How do you know the difference between a Breton and an Imperial?
    At the character select screen and that's it, and those differences are minor.
    You still know they are different though because of height and slight differences in their faces.
    No one cares about animations because like I said, they are the last thing to be built.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You can't say "positions mean nothing" when the different idle pose is quite obviously the main Nightborne difference besides ears -because again, the proportions difference is negligible-
    Sure I can, because despite what you think, the very first thing that tells you an asian is different from caucasian is their facial features and not the way they stand.
    You take a nightborne female and a night elf female, slap two handers on them and have them go to town on the mob in full armor.
    Their animations are the EXACT same and so the only difference you focus on are those of the bodily proportions and the ears.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Personally I do think Half Elves could be a "race", because in WoW race is already a vague terminology at best. Also I do like they have already an Horde counterpart with the Mok'nathal.
    I suggested this a long time ago and people kept shooting the idea down.
    There is a LOT of potential.
    Think about it, half elf just means you are half elf.
    It doesnt say what elf type it is, or what the other part may be.
    Half night elf/human? GET THEM PURPLE SKINS!
    Half high elf/half gnome? HOBBIT!

    <_<

    Just saying I like the idea because it can go beyond the standard fantasy trope. It could go tiefling route.

  12. #16772
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddi2 View Post
    Look, Obelisk, I am not going to debate with you. You are disingenuous. You would argue that the Earth is flat if it supported the position that the High Elves can't be playable.
    For me to be disingenuous, it would have to mean that I secretly recognise the strength of the pro high elf argument and yet have decided to ignore that in favour of promoting an outcome I prefer. Believing me to be disingenuous therefore requires a certain chauvinistic attitude towards your own argument, that you believe them to be so strong that opposition can only be disingenuous.

    I would like to assure you I am not being disingenuous. I genuinely do think the pro high elf argument is exceptionally weak. For example, you argued you found it funny that those who oppose alliance high elves don't seem to care about half elves and I helpfully explained why that is. Rather than comment on those points or defend your own assertion, you proceeded to label the opposition disingenuous. While you may or may not have an opinion on my explanation, I definitely want to assure you it is not disingenuous.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-05-12 at 12:28 PM.

  13. #16773
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    The half-elves are not a race, they are hybrids, I don't think it could be a playable race as such, but hey, you never know, we have the void elves...
    Yes, yes they are, that is literally what a hybrid is, which is a mix of two different species creating a new one.
    Such as Ligers, and Tigons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    The example of mag'har is exactly the same as for dwarfs or trolls. This is the idea I find interesting, that of adding several clans, parent race or variants for the same skeleton.
    No...it isn't, because maghar and DID are not hybrids or anything., They belong to the same dwarf/troll race they are literally the same as a different ethnicity. So that's not a new race.
    Hybrids are a new race because they have characteristics not found in either of their parents, are generally sterile, and have significant physiological differences that you cannot mistake the two.
    So, no, we shouldn't try to slap a half elf model into the high elf category because not only is it demanding two races under one category which has never occurred, but it is also a lazy way of implementing it and deprives half elves from ever having their own story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    Concerning the physique, the half-elves should have a less massive human physique, like that of Wrathion, therefore thalassian.
    I would be fine with that, heck they can be half elf half dragon.
    <.<

    I'd play that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    As I said, adding the half-elves would be a plus for the personalization of the high-elves, they are part of their history anyway.
    No.
    High elves are not the same race as half elves.
    The moment you put them under the high elf race option they become a high elf, and then it begs to question why blood elves don't have such a variance despite being part of the same thing.
    It creates far too many design issues, lore issues, and more.

    Half elves should be their own thing.

  14. #16774
    Half Elves are the product of a Parent Elf and another Parent. Being a Hybrid Race is still being a race. Half Elves who are part High Elf and part Humans continues the High Elf story on the Alliance without any of the problems that an Anti would have with High Elves being added.

    It's the only option that makes sense since everything else doesn't if we take Blizzard at their word that Blue-Eyes for Blood Elves don't make sense.

  15. #16775
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    There are 3 half elves currently recorded and all are from the same family.

    Just stop with that half elf nonsense.
    Last edited by elbleuet; 2020-05-12 at 04:50 PM.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  16. #16776
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    For me to be disingenuous, it would have to mean that I secretly recognise the strength of the pro high elf argument and yet have decided to ignore that in favour of promoting an outcome I prefer.
    That's not what I had in mind calling you that. I am not going to claim that you secretly think that pro high elf arguments are strong or anything like that but I will claim that you secretly might disagree with some of your own arguments but still make them because they promote your point. I've debated with you before. I've read your debates with others. I've seen you arguing against something in one argument and then agreeing with it in another, I've seen your position about certain things change depending on the point you are trying to make. While people here argue about points they believe in with arguments they believe in, you choose the arguments that would best support your position without actually necessarily having conviction in them yourself as if you are on a debate contest. And I have no desire to participate in one without judges and prizes to win.

  17. #16777
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    There are 3 half elves currently recorded and all are from the same family.

    Just stop with that half elf nonsense.
    If Populations don't matter thanks to Void Elves then only 3 known Half Elves doesn't matter when Blizzard will have an excuse to invent more. And given how much Alliance "high elves" have mingled with Humans, it only makes sense for there to be more. Blizzard just hasn't had a reason or need to depict more. Making Half Elves a playable race creates this and allows Half Elves to continue the High Elf story while appeasing those opposed.

    A literal win/win.

  18. #16778
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobwuzhere1224 View Post
    And given how much Alliance "high elves" have mingled with Humans+
    Your source ?
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  19. #16779
    Everyone knows Elf girls love Human Potential.

  20. #16780
    Quote Originally Posted by bobwuzhere1224 View Post
    If Populations don't matter thanks to Void Elves then only 3 known Half Elves doesn't matter when Blizzard will have an excuse to invent more. And given how much Alliance "high elves" have mingled with Humans, it only makes sense for there to be more. Blizzard just hasn't had a reason or need to depict more. Making Half Elves a playable race creates this and allows Half Elves to continue the High Elf story while appeasing those opposed.

    A literal win/win.
    There is literally no need to artificially create Half-Elves when High Elves that would do the exact same function and are actually desired by many people already exist.

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