Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Broflake]

The point is that you can pick the closest possible options and they just look like like the same race with different options, come on man. The point is that DK's have their own aesthetic that triumphs over racial ones -blue eyes- I really don't get what you are arguing against here.

I think its because we've been discussing the point so long.
I was stating the new policy is probably for different reasons, as in the past, they clearly did not care much about the blue eye aesthetic.

Irrelevant; the point is that whether KT's are human or not, their model is completely new. Like I agree if they had been ogres with that model they should be a new race, but I guess they fit the AR slot because they reused human fantasy.

Very relevant, because perception is key. It being new doesn't mean much. It is how it is presented.
Do you believe anyone thinks a Vulpera is just a goblin with a hair problem?
Or that they are perceived as a new race?

Dude, just no, you keep saying animation doesn't matter and it's all about proportions when I have shown you proof of how varely negligible the proportions between NB females are and the most striking difference is their idle stance. Like IDK how else to put it but you are just wrong about this.

You keep trying to assert this but it does not work and there is nothing to support you.
We have decades worth of game design and more, and I have provided them to you.
If animations were nearly as important as you believed them to be, then why have they been considered irrelevant by everyone including Blizzard itself?
Frankly, its disingenuous of you to suggest animations are so important, but then notice those seemingly negligible differences.

Come on, as if you really can differentiate them at mid distance for proportions alone. It's the ears.

And I agree about the reused bulk of the animations; NE and NB are only strikingly different on idle pose. When you see them move they look the same! This is not a point in favor of your argument.

Sure you can. If you see a tall, lanky looking figure next to a fuller one, its clearly a nightborne vs a night elf.
For the females, its largely the ears and proportions. Don't understimate the tiny diferences.
Let alone, you acknowledging the move the same only further demonstrates how irrelevant they are as an identifying tribute. Which was my point. To weaken your position and further mine through alternative points.

No wonder you got shot down if this is how you present the idea jeez.

I didn't, this is just an assumption on your part to be dramatic.

Like I could see half elves working, human/high elf that is, because one, humans and kaldorei -and any other alliance race- haven't cohabitated for long enough to be a thing, and high elves and gnomes? Come on dude, how is that a genuine idea?

My point was that half elves have potential, not that they should include half gnomes. Why not ask for clarification rather than make an assumption?

- - - Updated - - -

What you blame here is unfortunately happening.
The wildhammer nevertheless deserved to be an allied breed with all the lore they have and yet they ended up as a customization option.
This is why the half-elves are not immune to end up with the same treatment, the high-elves also.

No, it isn't, you're being rather dishonest.
Wild hammer dwarves are still dwarves.
Half elves are a hybrid.
There is a significantly large difference.
Let alone that half elves would require a different model, even if its a difference in ears, which would not be possible coding wise for WoW.

So both from a design stand point, and coding standpoint, you don't have anything to support that suggestion of yours.

- - - Updated - - -

There is an anti HE which would prefer that the half-elves look like Kalec, I let you go up the thread of 4-5 pages back.

I dislike being mis-represented.
I pointed out that half elves should get a unique model like Kalec got a unique model.
Not that they should get Kalec's.
Thanks

[DeicideUH]

This is a bug, but the implications are interesting. How come out of all skin tones it happens to be fair-skin ones? o_O

Makes me wonder if different skin tones would have a different effect? Or is this some typical complicated coding to make the Void transformation skin proc work differently two forms for Worgen.

Now I wonder, does every Void proc look the same independent of skin tones on Void Elves? If so, does that mean when you proc the Void skin does it change to this 'fair/pink skin' then get covered by the Void?

It's just interesting lol

BTW, this is how Entropic Embrace looks like in Shadowlands without the bug:



- Skin color is darker (way better, IMO).
- Hair is no longer covered by the void effect.

[FlubberPuddy]

You do realize saying "NE Fans are being told to go play NB for aesthetics" is the same as Ion telling High Elf fans to play Blood Elf for that aesthetic.

If that's the case does it mean people should stop making the argument that 'whatever goes to High Elves would go to Blood Elves so stop trying to take customizations away from us?"

Point being Blizzard apparently doesn't care if they put certain customizations on races that the originals might want, since you're trying to equate the two.

Because it'll happen in time. High Elves are obviously not a priority for Blizzard atm otherwise you'd be playing them instead of Void Elves.

Given that they're already showing eye colors being removed from all Thalassians in the Shadowlands alpha (High Elves/Blood Elves/Void Elves(?)) we won't have to wait long to see if High Elves too end up with Golden Eyes.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and say since the original 'Blue Eyes on Blood Elves' was a leap of logic that didn't pan out, this one may not either. Best of luck tho.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, this is how Entropic Embrace looks like in Shadowlands without the bug:



- Skin color is darker (way better, IMO).
- Hair is no longer covered by the void effect.

Now THAT is exactly what I wanted Void Elf Void Form to look like! Just like Alleria's! Or closer anyway.

Have Void Elves look like that and I wouldn't care if it's permanent!

I've just always hated pasty blue color.

Btw this is more evidence they're working on Allied Races which are related to Original Races who are getting increased customizations because it's easy to laterally switch between those associated race projects.

[bobwuzhere1224]

If that's the case does it mean people should stop making the argument that 'whatever goes to High Elves would go to Blood Elves so stop trying to take customizations away from us?"

Point being Blizzard apparently doesn't care if they put certain customizations on races that the originals might want, since you're trying to equate the two.


Given that they're already showing eye colors being removed from all Thalassians in the Shadowlands alpha (High Elves/Blood Elves/Void Elves(?)) we won't have to wait long to see if High Elves too end up with Golden Eyes.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and say since the original 'Blue Eyes on Blood Elves' was a leap of logic that didn't pan out, this one may not either. Best of luck tho.

- - - Updated - - -



Now THAT is exactly what I wanted Void Elf Void Form to look like! Just like Alleria's! Or closer anyway.

Have Void Elves look like that and I wouldn't care if it's permanent!

I've just always hated pasty blue color.

Btw this is more evidence they're working on Allied Races which are related to Original Races who are getting increased customizations because it's easy to laterally switch between those associated race projects.

You should be well aware of Blizzard not caring. After all they've had plenty of opportunities to add Playable High Elves and chosen not to add them.

And it wasn't a leap of logic. It was reasonable speculation based on a prior statement by Blizzard that they intended for the customizations that are coming to allow players to create whatever backstory they want. And considering Blood Elves natural eye color used to be Blue, it was perfectly reasonable for one to think that they were going to get Blue Eyes. But now that we know that they don't consider it to make sense that doesn't suddenly negate other customization or exclude High Elves which are the same race as Blood Elves and are affected by the Sunwell the same from getting golden eyes.

But we will know soon enough what Blood Elves are getting and what they aren't.

[FlubberPuddy]

You should be well aware of Blizzard not caring. After all they've had plenty of opportunities to add Playable High Elves and chosen not to add them.

I know that despite lore flubs here and there, they care about their lore a lot. Even today, Morgan Day citing how they don't want mythic only phases to become standard because it really only happens when it makes easy story sense for it to happen. But that they also design with gameplay at the forefront at times, and all of it is wrapped up in profits (hence why their testing phase of Shadowlands is wholly different from BFA).

So it makes sense that they didn't add in High Elves when they decided already on Void Elves, just like they didn't add in Wildhammer when they already decided to go the Dark Iron route.

I won't argue that you have a better sales pitch advertising a Void Elf over a High Elf or a Dark Iron over a Wildhammer.

That's not to say they don't acknowledge when something is really wanted and eventually give it, especially when it 'makes sense' to do so. Hence increased customizations, allied races, tmog, cross-server groups, keeping artifact weapon skins as prestige (that was a big push the community had to do as blizz originally wanted them all locked after expac was over).

So it never hurts to keep requesting. Especially since, unlike Blue eyes on Blood Elves, 'the door hasn't closed' for High Elves. "No plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race". Not "High Elves as an Allied Race don't make sense."

And it wasn't a leap of logic. It was reasonable speculation based on a prior statement by Blizzard that they intended for the customizations that are coming to allow players to create whatever backstory they want. And considering Blood Elves natural eye color used to be Blue, it was perfectly reasonable for one to think that they were going to get Blue Eyes. But now that we know that they don't consider it to make sense that doesn't suddenly negate other customization or exclude High Elves which are the same race as Blood Elves and are affected by the Sunwell the same from getting golden eyes.

But we will know soon enough what Blood Elves are getting and what they aren't.

Gonna go out on a limb and speculate that Blood Elf customization will keep to their thematic colors (red/green/gold/black) and that the ruling of no blue eyes means they're most likely not gonna get blue-ish customization options.

But yeah we'll see. One thing we already know at least is no blue eyes for blood elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes it is, but you like to move goalposts so your statements appear to never be wrong. Look at your post here about it: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52285888



Very accusational (two paragraphs worth dedicated to it) and then trying to save face by attaching a couple 'sure it could have happened, but excuse me for waiting after I go ahead and bravado on how this person is biased for High Elves.'


It's plain to see dude.

I am pretty sure that passage you quoted was in the period between the incorrect determination that the blue eyes were destined for Void Elves and the news that Blood Elves weren't getting blue eyes. And that passage actually holds up, as you were claiming the discovery of these options meant that allied race customisations were beginning earlier than anyone else had expected. As we now know, the eyes were intended for the Blood Elf model but restricted to certain NPCs.

You keeping coming back to this point but scepticism of keyboardturner's conclusions were justified at the time and were borne out by the actual results.

Lots were saying that, many kept repeating 'there's also soulbinds too but people are just focusing on covenant abilities' over and over. But it requires Blizzard to generally repeat the same thing for it to be gotten across?

If lots were saying that then we were clearly looking at different topics. But 'lots' saying it is irrelevant. What does it matter that 'lots' were saying something regarding a gameplay system? It didn't matter that they were saying it because what I wanted to hear was feedback from Blizzard themselves that they understood the concerns and were working on them. Of course Blizzard saying it was more important. It meant something was going to happen.

This continues to be a deeply, deeply weird point you are making. It would be far odder for someone to change their opinions based on forum commentary and then to ignore what Blizzard says. Besides, whether the gameplay of Covenants work is tangential to the reason I brought it up, the assertion that 'Choice Matters'. Just as your choice of covenant is intended to matter, your choice of faction is far more profound. Choice mattering as a concept neatly segues with their concept of maintaining the faction system and keeping the faction diverse as expressed through several interviews in the past few years. It would be a funny old world where choice matters for an expansion system such as Covenants but watered down for a pillar of the game.

No one's saying you can't change an opinion. Or that one shouldn't change their opinion when circumstances change, but that your arguments hinge on the status quo and that the status quo changes means no one has to spend their time getting into discussions then.

When the status quo changes, so will what you say. Because we know that Blizzard's status quo changes as they've done it many times before. So there's really no productive discussion to be had there.

They've maintained this particular status quo going on fifteen years though, from the moment they discounted high elves as a playable race back in classic's development. My argument reflects the status quo, it does not hinge on it. Are Blood Elves high elves? Yes. Are High Elves therefore playable? Yes. Is the faction system a pillar of the game? Yes. Are the factions being as diverse as possible a boon to that pillar of the game? Yes. Do neutral races undermine this pillar of the game? Yes.

When Blizzard elects to change a status quo they trail it well in advance. Pro High Elf fans like talking about the classic example and how Blizzard changed course on it, but you could see that change taking place well in advance of the actual announcement when they invited Nostalrius to the Blizzard campus. In contrast, with your personal request, they just keep doubling down against it again and again and again.

Your arguments have been extremely consistent on the status quo. That's what people point out, and I've pointed out already too. Done here with that.

The reason I am consistent on the status quo is that it has remained unchanged for a decade and a half on the core question. There isn't much need for variance.

1) Illogical to assume a mixed light-arcane source is 50/50. A mixture can have different proportions, and nowhere was it said the Sunwell is equal parts Holy and Arcane.

It wasn't illogical, nor was it illogical to assume that it needed to be half and half to provide equal opportunities. That it turned out not to be true does not mean the hypothesis itself was flawed.

2) Canonically blue eyed Blood Elves were brought up to Kosak and deemed a bug when questioned by someone "are these blue eyed blood elves oversights or intentional". That Kosak claims 'didn't we fix that bug' is indirect admission they're oversight.

Some blue eyes are oversights. Others, such as Lanesh, were confirmed canonical.

It's just like Ion saying 'it [blue eyes] doesn't make sense for how they've [blood elves] evolved' whoever wanted blue eyed blood elves can kiss that customization goodbye as Ion's explanation implies it's never happening. Sad for those that genuinely wanted them as extra options. But happy that people who just wanted to be toxic towards the High Elf request got shut there.

Yet the high elf request is pretty much defunct as a result as well. They won't be added as a standalone race for numerous reasons that can be summed up as follows: When there is an opportunity to add a new race to the Alliance, there will ALWAYS be something more interesting to add than a Blood Elf clone. And while you may protest that they are 'popular' and 'wanted', that is the result of participating in echo chamber debates which have likely led to a skewed perspective. Besides, as the rejection of blue eyes has shown, popularity doesn't mean a thing if it crosses their red lines.

Of course, that leaves plan B, using the Void Elves as a vector BUT...

And that wasn't why people were celebrating it but I'm sure you know this. They were celebrating that it defuncts the 'Blood Elves should have blue eyes' arguments that people were heralding around based on multiple leaps of logic on what the Sunwell is, how different forces of magic interact with each other, and on not understanding the visual language of Blood Elves.

It seems unusual to critique those who sought blue eyes for Blood Elves, blue eyes of course being a customisation on individuals who are biologically identical to Blood Elves, and yet to insist human range skin tones are possible on Void Elves merely because you think they are a popular ask. Blue eyes were a fairly popular ask as well and they didn't happen.
The logic of why Blood Elves didn't get blue eyes applies a great deal more to the idea of Void Elves having human range skin tones after all and you put it fine yourself, human range skin tones would not be a part of the visual language of that group.
So the end result is that nobody will have the combination of a human skin tone range elf with blue eyes.
Blue eyes will instead become a part of the visual language of the Void Elves, a distinguishing factor between them and the Blood Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

It's their last attempt to keep up the "Blood Elves and High Elves are exactly the same, thus High Elves couldn't have anything changed model-wise/customization options-wise/racial-wise unlike Kul'Tirans because BE and HE are 1:1" nonsense.

Actually Ion's interview changed nothing regarding that. He merely stated Blood Elves have moved past blue eyes. But in his 2018 interview where he ruled out the exiles as an allied race he stated

'Basically blood elves kind of are High Elves with slightly different eye colour...that is a Blood Elf'.

Now if you are keen to accept Ion's lore reasoning as to why Blood Elves didn't get blue eyes, that they have moved past it, then you are kind of obligated to accept his related commentary that eye colour isn't a fundamental difference between the two. He cited the differing eye colours as one of the minute differences between the exiles and the Blood Elves that didn't matter to the fundamental point, that Blood Elves are High Elves.

So he reaffirmed the status quo.

[FlubberPuddy]

They've maintained this particular status quo going on fifteen years though, from the moment they discounted high elves as a playable race back in classic's development. My argument reflects the status quo, it does not hinge on it. Are Blood Elves high elves? Yes. Are High Elves therefore playable? Yes. Is the faction system a pillar of the game? Yes. Are the factions being as diverse as possible a boon to that pillar of the game? Yes. Do neutral races undermine this pillar of the game? Yes.

When Blizzard elects to change a status quo they trail it well in advance. Pro High Elf fans like talking about the classic example and how Blizzard changed course on it, but you could see that change taking place well in advance of the actual announcement when they invited Nostalrius to the Blizzard campus. In contrast, with your personal request, they just keep doubling down against it again and again and again.

They have not actually. April 2018 is the last time any Blizzard official comes up with how come no playable High Elves yet and ends with "No plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race".

Ever since that, everytime High Elves were asked about, either in the form of options for void elves, blue eyes on blood elves, or even just as an allied race - all the answers have not been "doubling down against it again and again"

1) Afrasiabi during Blizzcon 2018 (AFTER April 2018 Q&A) asked if Void Elves could get High Elf options for that "High Elf fantasy" he states it's possible then EMPHASIZES "Don't give up hope" (and go watch this again he does not afterward go into a longer explanation on forum etiquette, that comes BEFORE he answers the High Elf related question).

2) Ion during Blizzcon 2018 also asked about High Elves on the show floor, responds saying "the door hasn't closed" "just because they won't be in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever"

That we know Dark skin Blood Elves were asked on the showfloor is proof that developers don't simply 'lie/sugarcoat' etc w/e you want to call it to ensure a fan is having a good time at a convention. Did that developer who told the fan not want to ruin his time at Blizzcon sugarcoat that Dark skin Blood Elves were coming? No, he was given an honest answer.

Thus it seems strange to think Ion's not giving an honest answer on the showfloor as well.

3) Ion 2 years later, on blood elves getting blue eyes CONFIRMS they are not getting it as that customization option wouldn't make sense for them. If Blizzard were continually "doubling down against it again and again" you would think BE would've gotten blue eyes as that's the sense some people got from Ion's April 2018 Q&A statement on going with Void Elves over High Elves. BUT NOPE!

They have stopped "doubling down against it again and again" ever since 2 years ago. Not once have they ever referred back to that interview when asked about High Elves, in any form, and Ion has never repeated those statements he made back 2 years ago nor has any other Blizzard employee.

My guess is the absolute storm of hypocrisy that was pointed out across many different media personalities and on the forums made them realize how much of a misunderstood response they gave and thus have not decided to engage on it again.

It's different from with how the answer to cross-faction at Blizzcon 2019 was always a rote 'no' response giving the exact same reasons from various different employees as if all had rehearsed the exact same lines to tell people. Which then flipped flopped fast not a couple months later where Patrick Dawson admits they've been internally testing it and it does seem a cool idea but nothing to announce atm.

It wasn't illogical, nor was it illogical to assume that it needed to be half and half to provide equal opportunities. That it turned out not to be true does not mean the hypothesis itself was flawed.

"doesn't make sense" is another way to say it's illogical. Don't know how else to explain it. Ion didn't just say "we're not giving blue eyes because we don't want to do it, even if it is logical/makes sense".

Some blue eyes are oversights. Others, such as Lanesh, were confirmed canonical.

Let me point out the Question and Danuser's response to which I'm assuming is what you consider Lanesh's blue eyes to be canonical.

https://twitter.com/SteveDanuser/sta...87595542433792

Question:"I know you probably wont see this question, or know the answer (Because its still a mystery) but do you happen to know who "exactly" Lanesh the Steelweaver is, and why he has blue eyes?

Steve Danuser's response: "I did see this, and I do know who he is. Would rather not delve into character backgrounds here, as someday there might be an opportunity to tell the tale in game. That's always more satisfying than an off-the-cuff tweet. "

Nowhere is he confirming that blue eyes is canonical/does make sense for Lanesh. He's simply saying he knows the character.

The "would not delve into character backgrounds as someday there might be an opportunity to tell the tale in game" is another way of saying "we have no plans to do anything with this guy atm, but in case we ever do I'd rather not confirm or deny anything right now."

Nothing here is saying his blue eyes are canonical. This is just like when Anti-helf folks thought Ion's statement in April 2018 meant Blue Eyes were coming to Blood Elves and that Blood Elves would get all colors of the rainbow for their eye color options.

Your own assumptions are not canonical. The girl asked two questions in one sentence, Steve replied to the first bit.

Yet the high elf request is pretty much defunct as a result as well.

If you wish to continue believing this you may, that doesn't mean the rest of us have to. I always figured it'd be a long road till we got to High Elves, because most of the customizations are big and in your face for the race options.

But as I told another poster here, that we're getting body jewelry/neck jewelry means Blizzard are now opening customization options to include minute details, and it's in those minute details that High Elves can more easily be differentiated. Just how iconic Wildhammers are simply from having blue tattoos. They don't need much else, 99% of players will go "that's a wildhammer dwarf!" by something so subtle.

Just like people for years prior to parroting Ion's 2018 comment knew that blue eyes = High Elf and green eyes = Blood Elf. The subtle differentiation was all it took, but from a playable race standpoint didn't exist -> until increased customizations.

And increased customizations doesn't pre-clude more allied races or standard races from ever being added.

Actually Ion's interview changed nothing regarding that.

Actually it did, which is why now you have the folks who kept memeing that blood elves would have blue eyes now want the High Elves to get Golden Eyes. No one was saying that before when Golden Eyes were released for Blood Elves. No one.

It's a reaction to Ion's statement, because that statement affirms blue eyes are for High Elves (and/or Void Elves) - main point blue eyes aren't for blood elves.

'Basically blood elves kind of are High Elves with slightly different eye colour...that is a Blood Elf'.

Bolded an extra bit you gloss over "kind of are" does not mean "they are exactly the same". When Ion says "kind of" it means difference and he explains it as such when he continues.

Now if you are keen to accept Ion's lore reasoning as to why Blood Elves didn't get blue eyes, that they have moved past it, then you are kind of obligated to accept his related commentary that eye colour isn't a fundamental difference between the two. He cited the differing eye colours as one of the minute differences between the exiles and the Blood Elves that didn't matter to the fundamental point, that Blood Elves are High Elves.

So he reaffirmed the status quo.

No one is obligated to do that lol, it's a 'gotcha' attempt you're doing because of being snubbed by Ion's comment. The only people who says those kinds of things are those that are disappointed by the comment Ion made and are now trying to retaliate in their own way towards High Elf fans who got vindication there.

Ion can make incorrect statements and correct statements. Believing he is incorrect one time and correct another is frankly okay, no one has to believe every single thing that comes out of a person's mouth, nor has to think everything they say is a lie either.

People do it all it the time with their own circle of friends/family, that's what the word 'misunderstood' is for.

Ion was legit shown a picture of Vereesa with her Silver Covenant faction rep and title of Ranger-General when the blue eyes question was brought up. He legit was being shown a High Elf of a prominent faction (prominent as in they're an attainable rep for Alliance players) with blue eyes when answering that question.

Zoltan and Cinderys didn't put up Lanesh up there, and Ion had to answer that question knowing he was looking at a High Elf - that's the funniest thing about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Also since I know this can keep going round and round with you I'm going to leave it at this



- - - Updated - - -

Rest of my posts will focus on any new developments for High Elves/showcasing different customization options and discussing those customization options.

Thread doesn't need to be filled with an endlessbackandforthuntiltheyaddHighElvesorconfirmneverhappeningcirculardiscussion.

[erifwodahs]

And what I mean is it's kind of like the Nightborne customizations that Night Elf fans want. Night Elves are the 'parent race' to Nightborne (Nightborne evolved from Night Elves). Yet in their discussions those NE fans are being told to go play NB for aesthetics that Night Elves 'being the parent race' should have access to.

While bob may not be arguing that, it's a double-standard that exists and is weird. Because Blood Elves are not a parent race to High Elves. Even if they're playable first.

NE are sister race to NB and a parent race HE. Highbourne is the parent of the NE and NB.
There were HB, then Azhara happened, HB split into NE and NB, then NE said fuck off for the arcane using NE and they became HE. Obviously this is simplified and happened over thousands of years.

[Broflake]

And what I mean is it's kind of like the Nightborne customizations that Night Elf fans want. Night Elves are the 'parent race' to Nightborne (Nightborne evolved from Night Elves). Yet in their discussions those NE fans are being told to go play NB for aesthetics that Night Elves 'being the parent race' should have access to.

While bob may not be arguing that, it's a double-standard that exists and is weird. Because Blood Elves are not a parent race to High Elves. Even if they're playable first.

What aesthetics should night elves have that nightborne have access to exclusively?

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NE are sister race to NB and a parent race HE. Highbourne is the parent of the NE and NB.
There were HB, then Azhara happened, HB split into NE and NB, then NE said fuck off for the arcane using NE and they became HE. Obviously this is simplified and happened over thousands of years.

Highborne are night elves it was just a social class, though it is fair to say the high elves and nightborne continued that social class.

[FossilFree]

Well, it looks like the devs have given up this idea of no new customization options for Allied Races until later on. Apparently, even the first pass will be getting them. Another anti argument bites the dust!

None
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Petite
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Sparrow
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Beaded
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Classic
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Pointed
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Full
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Anchor
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
None
Void Elf Female - Earrings
Bare
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Fine
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Chops
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Twin Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Full
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Beaded
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Paired Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Splayed Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Broad Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316035/...ization-oribos

[FlubberPuddy]

Well, it looks like the devs have given up this idea of no new customization options for Allied Races until later on. Apparently, even the first pass will be getting them. Another anti argument bites the dust!

I think this is simply naming the current beard options that are there.

Because the new character customization is giving names to hair style options/facial hair options.

This does kind of give more rise to that likely those varying blue eyes options datamined may go to the Void Elves. We'll have to wait and see though.

[Lahis]

Well, it looks like the devs have given up this idea of no new customization options for Allied Races until later on. Apparently, even the first pass will be getting them. Another anti argument bites the dust!

None
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Petite
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Sparrow
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Beaded
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Classic
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Pointed
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Full
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
Anchor
Void Elf Male - Facial Hair
None
Void Elf Female - Earrings
Bare
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Fine
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Chops
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Twin Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Full
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Beaded
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Paired Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Splayed Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair
Broad Tendrils
Lightforged Draenei Male - Facial Hair

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316035/...ization-oribos

You do realize that both Lightforged and Void Elf males already have facial hair? Those are just the names for their existing facial hair options.

[FossilFree]

I think this is simply naming the current beard options that are there.

Because the new character customization is giving names to hair style options/facial hair options.

This does kind of give more rise to that likely those varying blue eyes options datamined may go to the Void Elves. We'll have to wait and see though.

Certainly a possibility, at least till you notice this little gem:

None
Void Elf Female - Earrings

[FlubberPuddy]

Certainly a possibility, at least till you notice this little gem:

None
Void Elf Female - Earrings

Void Elf females already have access to earrings.

[FossilFree]

Void Elf females already have access to earrings.

Huh, I guess I just never made a female before to notice.

At any rate, there is visual evidence that ARs are being worked on too:

Small news for void elf fans: Entropic Embrace visual has been changed in Shadowlands.



- Skin color is darker (way better, IMO).
- Hair is no longer covered by the void effect.

Looks a lot more like Alleria's now.

[FlubberPuddy]

Huh, I guess I just never made a female before to notice.

At any rate, there is visual evidence that ARs are being worked on too:

Definitely some AR stuff is being worked on. Makes sense as it's easier for Blizzard to switch between the two.

Also Stiven found that Gnomes are getting some of the Mechagnome facial hair options.

This means we're likely to see Blood Elves get the beard options Void Elves have.

Indicates a sharing of customizations between the same races.

AKA Kul'Tirans are humans which is why Humans are getting KT facial hair options.

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Makes sense as it's easier for Blizzard to switch between the two.

Wanted to highlight this here btw. The easier it becomes for Blizzard to add-in character customization options, the more justifiable High Elves get.

Before, a 'new race' required an entire boat-load of work because it wasn't simply adding in another option in the character selector along with a variety of choices. It also required a bunch of story-writing, a dedicated zone, bunch of quests that may/may not have required new technology (look to how phasing was utilized in Worgen/Goblin/Pandaren zones)/extensive testing to fix bugs with those associated zones.

Ton of work, and then there's Allied Races. It took away a lot of the 'backend' to getting a 'new race' (the extensive zones with story/quests/technology usage) and focused on the races themselves with a variety of options, and a little story/quest/tech for their recruitment questline.

Now with increased customizations, there's even less than Allied Races to make 'a new race' ('race' here defined as to how Dark Irons/Mag'har/Wildhammer are considered different 'races' despite all being the same race) as it is literally adding options onto an existing selection.

That they've also basically 'unified' character models in such a way that we can see them working on improvements for Void Elves alongside the same time they're making improvements to Blood Elves is the kind of advancement of ease shown that Blizzard has attained.

Thus whereas long ago in WoW's development it probably wouldn't have been justifiable to add what some call "SimpLY bLuE eYeD BLood eLVeS", they now could because it's much more efficient and less resource intensive for them to do so.

This is why Danuser saying that they wouldn't let having to spend so much resources on appropriating story to give customizations get in the way of adding Wildhammer, because it would then end up not being feasible to add those options in the first place.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well, it looks like the devs have given up this idea of no new customization options for Allied Races until later on. Apparently, even the first pass will be getting them. Another anti argument bites the dust!

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316035/...ization-oribos

Honestly that's just labeling the options.

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Very relevant, because perception is key. It being new doesn't mean much. It is how it is presented.
Do you believe anyone thinks a Vulpera is just a goblin with a hair problem?
Or that they are perceived as a new race?

Yet Vulpera reuse goblin assets; that's what I see as the throughline of AR; there's something being reused here, whether it is fantasy (Zandalari, Kulturans) or assets (Vulpera) or both (the rest). Assets in this meaning animations and geometry. If Vulpera had an unique model they would be a new race, but it's clear they reuse the female gob model almost wholesale, so I think we all agree why they are an AR and not a Core Race.

You keep trying to assert this but it does not work and there is nothing to support you.
We have decades worth of game design and more, and I have provided them to you.
If animations were nearly as important as you believed them to be, then why have they been considered irrelevant by everyone including Blizzard itself?
Frankly, its disingenuous of you to suggest animations are so important, but then notice those seemingly negligible differences.

Sure you can. If you see a tall, lanky looking figure next to a fuller one, its clearly a nightborne vs a night elf.
For the females, its largely the ears and proportions. Don't understimate the tiny diferences.
Let alone, you acknowledging the move the same only further demonstrates how irrelevant they are as an identifying tribute. Which was my point. To weaken your position and further mine through alternative points.

But the problem is that the models are just simply not different enough at all , and thus is the posture what actually makes the difference. You can point out to game design all you want, what I am telling you is that IMO the model difference between NB and NE females is just negligible and is the posture -which is also part of what you are referring to game design. what ACTUALLY makes the difference.

I think the point here is mostly that I think that the most noticeable difference is posture, and you say it's proportion. All I can say is that it is subjective to a point, but that I legit think you are wrong with how little the difference in proportion between NB and NE female models actually is. I can not point to something I consider apparent if you don't see it any more than I have done.

I didn't, this is just an assumption on your part to be dramatic.

My point was that half elves have potential, not that they should include half gnomes. Why not ask for clarification rather than make an assumption?

Honestly that was just about "hobbits" being a bit ridiculous to introduce now. I do agree about Half Elves tho, you know that.

[Vaedan]

I wanted playable alliance high elves since classic. I still think that addition of blood elves to the Horde actually hurt the faction identity of the Horde and even after all these years, I still feel they don't fit in. While I play blood elf on the Horde, I feel really inappropriate while going to Orgrimmar or Thunder Bluff. It just don't feel right.

Horde has been about tribal thematics, underdog feelings and having to fight for your place in the world. Alliance was about high culture, civilised way of living and self righteous point of view. In this, blood elves on the Horde diluted faction divide to some degree and Blizzard changed what a Horde faction is about, and all this only to give fancy race to the Horde. They did exactly what now anti-helfers are claiming addition of high elves would do, but in reality, adding High Elves would not give Alliance something that is Horde by default. It would just give them theme which actually aligns with their thematics. I don't say Horde can't have pretty fancy race. I think zandalari does this in a way more in tune with Horde thematics than blood elves will ever do.

We have void elves now. The only possible scenario when we have void and high elves playable is that void elves will be pushed more towards outlandish, mysterious race which gives up on their origins, while the high elves would define themselves by tradition and keeping their roots pure and clean. I suspect we will get another compromise in more customization for void elves to push the high elf feeling.

[bobwuzhere1224]

Honestly that's just labeling the options.

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Yet Vulpera reuse goblin assets; that's what I see as the throughline of AR; there's something being reused here, whether it is fantasy (Zandalari, Kulturans) or assets (Vulpera) or both (the rest). Assets in this meaning animations and geometry. If Vulpera had an unique model they would be a new race, but it's clear they reuse the female gob model almost wholesale, so I think we all agree why they are an AR and not a Core Race.




But the problem is that the models are just simply not different enough at all , and thus is the posture what actually makes the difference. You can point out to game design all you want, what I am telling you is that IMO the model difference between NB and NE females is just negligible and is the posture -which is also part of what you are referring to game design. what ACTUALLY makes the difference.

I think the point here is mostly that I think that the most noticeable difference is posture, and you say it's proportion. All I can say is that it is subjective to a point, but that I legit think you are wrong with how little the difference in proportion between NB and NE female models actually is. I can not point to something I consider apparent if you don't see it any more than I have done.



Honestly that was just about "hobbits" being a bit ridiculous to introduce now. I do agree about Half Elves tho, you know that.

The ears being different is what stands out to me most when seeing a NE and NB side by side. I don't even think about posture.

[Obelisk Kai]

They have not actually. April 2018 is the last time any Blizzard official comes up with how come no playable High Elves yet and ends with "No plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race".

Ever since that, everytime High Elves were asked about, either in the form of options for void elves, blue eyes on blood elves, or even just as an allied race - all the answers have not been "doubling down against it again and again"

The rationale given in the 2018 rejection was fairly comprehensive regarding the importance of faction diversity. The importance of the faction divide was restated several times across 2019, most noticeably at Blizzcon in regards to forum chatter regarding the faction barrier weakening as a result of BFA. However Ion was asked by Forbes in an interview in May 2019 regarding the possibility of a PVE equivalent to Mercenary mode and he essentially stated wha they repeated six months later at Blizzcon. The importance of the factions is highlighted again and again, and keeping them diverse is a critical part of that.

1) Afrasiabi during Blizzcon 2018 (AFTER April 2018 Q&A) asked if Void Elves could get High Elf options for that "High Elf fantasy" he states it's possible then EMPHASIZES "Don't give up hope" (and go watch this again he does not afterward go into a longer explanation on forum etiquette, that comes BEFORE he answers the High Elf related question).

Afrasiabi was not asked about high elves. He was asked about Void Elves getting high elf like customisation. A Void Elf with high elf like customisation still isn't a traditional high elf.
Secondly, he merely said it was possible, which is the sole reason the idea has been given any consideration in this thread whatsoever. However, this draws a parallel with an interview Ion did in 2013 where, when asked about a sub-race system, he mentioned high elves as well as mag'har orcs. Just because something is possible does not mean it is probable or even likely. Given the rationale laid out for the rejection of blue eyes on blood elves, it would be beyond strange for void elves to get high elf like customisations now as that violates the same principles Ion laid out as to why blood elves didn't get blue eyes.

And yes, I've watched the video several times over the years since it was made, the main point of his response was taken up forum etiquette. Even his 'don't give up hope' line you placed great store in seems to be a call to keep their conduct cool and respectful, rather than to rage at the unfairness of it all.

2) Ion during Blizzcon 2018 also asked about High Elves on the show floor, responds saying "the door hasn't closed" "just because they won't be in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever"

That we know Dark skin Blood Elves were asked on the showfloor is proof that developers don't simply 'lie/sugarcoat' etc w/e you want to call it to ensure a fan is having a good time at a convention. Did that developer who told the fan not want to ruin his time at Blizzcon sugarcoat that Dark skin Blood Elves were coming? No, he was given an honest answer.

Thus it seems strange to think Ion's not giving an honest answer on the showfloor as well.

Do you have a transcript of what was said? Or a recording? No, you don't. What you have is the recollection of a pro high elfer who typed out several hours after the fact what he recalls was said. The pro high elfer who reported might even believe it was fairly accurate, but nuance is a funny thing and answers can be carefully parsed for deeper meanings.

As I have mentioned before, a friend of mine worked for Blizzard in the past and did work like this at the World Wide Invitational in Paris. They are trained on fan interaction. Ion simply repeated what he said in the 2018 rejection but, yes, he did sugarcoat it because he was being nice to a fan whose day he wasn't out to ruin with a nasty interaction. After all, you don't know who is recording what these days and a bad interaction could be on the web within a few minutes and become a PR nightmare for the company if the wrong thing is said.

The 2018 showfloor conversation therefore is cankered by the fact Ion would have been restricted by company guidelines, the human need not to ruin someone's day and the fact it was a very brief conversation reported several hours after the fact from a source whose outlook was biased on the outcome.

As for the fan who asked about dark skinned blood elves, if that person was going to be upset by the addition of dark skin tones to Blood Elves I have zero sympathy if their day was ruined or not. There is also the fact that it is easier to obfuscate and be nice about a hypothetical that likely isn't going to happen than it is about something that is coming and pertains to the feature you've just announced.

3) Ion 2 years later, on blood elves getting blue eyes CONFIRMS they are not getting it as that customization option wouldn't make sense for them. If Blizzard were continually "doubling down against it again and again" you would think BE would've gotten blue eyes as that's the sense some people got from Ion's April 2018 Q&A statement on going with Void Elves over High Elves. BUT NOPE!

Some Blood Elves do have blue eyes, as Lanesh canonically proves. However it not being offered as a customisation does not change the initial rejection on Blood Elves being high elves, particularly as the eye colour difference was actually cited in that rejection as one of the few differences that did in fact exist.

They have stopped "doubling down against it again and again" ever since 2 years ago. Not once have they ever referred back to that interview when asked about High Elves, in any form, and Ion has never repeated those statements he made back 2 years ago nor has any other Blizzard employee.

My guess is the absolute storm of hypocrisy that was pointed out across many different media personalities and on the forums made them realize how much of a misunderstood response they gave and thus have not decided to engage on it again.

It's different from with how the answer to cross-faction at Blizzcon 2019 was always a rote 'no' response giving the exact same reasons from various different employees as if all had rehearsed the exact same lines to tell people. Which then flipped flopped fast not a couple months later where Patrick Dawson admits they've been internally testing it and it does seem a cool idea but nothing to announce atm.

As pointed out in the past, several high elf topics on the official forums were closed as spam and in the response to a query as to why they were closed, the CM advised that the topic had been addressed by Ion in the past. That CM was a Blizzard employee.

And your 'guess' as to why they haven't commented on it again does seemingly have the appealing virtue of proving you right. I can understand why you find it appealing as your guess.

Here's a different take. They don't need to continually reference themselves on the topic, the last word on it is good enough. It has been reinforced though by their restatement of the importance of the faction divide across 2019 and the rejection of a pve equivalent to mercenary mode.

And Patrick Dawson's comment merely confirms they experimented with it internally to see what it feels like. Given the rejection at Blizzcon it is safe to say the results of that internal testing were not great. He also deployed the standard platitude regarding a hypothetical they aren't actively looking at 'In the future, you never know what is going to happen!'.

"doesn't make sense" is another way to say it's illogical. Don't know how else to explain it. Ion didn't just say "we're not giving blue eyes because we don't want to do it, even if it is logical/makes sense".

No, he explained why it didn't make sense in lore. But until that point was clarified the request was based on a logical interpretation of the lore as we understood it until the zoltan interview.

Let me point out the Question and Danuser's response to which I'm assuming is what you consider Lanesh's blue eyes to be canonical.

https://twitter.com/SteveDanuser/sta...87595542433792

Question:"I know you probably wont see this question, or know the answer (Because its still a mystery) but do you happen to know who "exactly" Lanesh the Steelweaver is, and why he has blue eyes?

Steve Danuser's response: "I did see this, and I do know who he is. Would rather not delve into character backgrounds here, as someday there might be an opportunity to tell the tale in game. That's always more satisfying than an off-the-cuff tweet. "

Nowhere is he confirming that blue eyes is canonical/does make sense for Lanesh. He's simply saying he knows the character.

Nothing here is saying his blue eyes are canonical. This is just like when Anti-helf folks thought Ion's statement in April 2018 meant Blue Eyes were coming to Blood Elves and that Blood Elves would get all colors of the rainbow for their eye color options.

Your own assumptions are not canonical. The girl asked two questions in one sentence, Steve replied to the first bit


The "would not delve into character backgrounds as someday there might be an opportunity to tell the tale in game" is another way of saying "we have no plans to do anything with this guy atm, but in case we ever do I'd rather not confirm or deny anything right now."

The strong implication of course being that Lanesh's blue eyes are deliberate and there is a reason he has them because after all, that is the reason he stands out from other Blood Elves. Had it just been a bug, all he had to say was that it was a bug or not comment. Some Blood Elves do have blue eyes. Even the Warcraft encyclopedia confirmed that some of the exiles who attempted to hold out eventually gave in and went home so it is not as if there is no canonical source for blue eyed Blood Elves, merely that they aren't numerous.

If you wish to continue believing this you may, that doesn't mean the rest of us have to. I always figured it'd be a long road till we got to High Elves, because most of the customizations are big and in your face for the race options.

But as I told another poster here, that we're getting body jewelry/neck jewelry means Blizzard are now opening customization options to include minute details, and it's in those minute details that High Elves can more easily be differentiated. Just how iconic Wildhammers are simply from having blue tattoos. They don't need much else, 99% of players will go "that's a wildhammer dwarf!" by something so subtle.

Just like people for years prior to parroting Ion's 2018 comment knew that blue eyes = High Elf and green eyes = Blood Elf. The subtle differentiation was all it took, but from a playable race standpoint didn't exist -> until increased customizations.

Wildhammers are not being added to the game as a distinct option. Instead, Dwarves are being expanded to encompass Wildhammer options. A Dwarf with Wildhammer customisations is not obligated to identity as a Wildhammer. They made decide they are a Bronzebeard with wildhammer affectations. The reason the Dwarf can be expanded to encompass the Wildhammer though is that the Wildhammer Dwarves and the Bronzebeard Dwarves are biologically identical with no other differentiations.

And it is worth pointing out that the differences in Wildhammer and Bronzebeard aesthetics are the results of three centuries of separation. Blood Elves and the exiles have been separated for just over a decade. And whereas the Wildhammer and Bronzebeards have seen several generations live and die in that time, the Blood Elves and the exiles can individually live for millenia. There hasn't been the time or even the likely inclination for them to differentiate on minute details.

Which even presumes that minute details are enough of a basis. They aren't, that's why Wildhammer are being expressed through ordinary Dwarf customisations rather than as a stand alone race.

Blue eyes were not denied to Blood Elves to placate pro high elf fans. They were denied on the only rationale they would be denied on, inconsistency with the lore. But they are still not enough for a basis as a stand alone race. What they will do is accentuate the differences between Void Elves, who have blue eyes, and Blood Elves, who have green/gold. The more points of differentiation between those two groups, the better.

And increased customizations doesn't pre-clude more allied races or standard races from ever being added.

Never said they would. But there will always be a more interesting option than adding something looks 95% like a Void Elf to the Alliance. Sethrak, Jinyu, Ankoan, Sabreon, Botani, Tuskarr, Drakonids, Ethereals...each and every one a better choice merely by being a genuinely new option.

Actually it did, which is why now you have the folks who kept memeing that blood elves would have blue eyes now want the High Elves to get Golden Eyes. No one was saying that before when Golden Eyes were released for Blood Elves. No one.

It's a reaction to Ion's statement, because that statement affirms blue eyes are for High Elves (and/or Void Elves) - main point blue eyes aren't for blood elves.

I've been saying the exiles should get golden eyes for years and they probably will in the fullness of time given their biology and lore. But it will probably take longer than wow's time frame for it to occur.

Bolded an extra bit you gloss over "kind of are" does not mean "they are exactly the same". When Ion says "kind of" it means difference and he explains it as such when he continues.

Yes, he did explain it. He listed two differences. One was the eye colour, which he recently restated (i.e supports the status quo) and the second was the philosophical split over what to do without the sunwell. The second point being resolved with the restoration. Which leaves the eye colour. And the context of his response was that those minute differences didn't matter, Blood Elves are the high elf option of the game.

No one is obligated to do that lol, it's a 'gotcha' attempt you're doing because of being snubbed by Ion's comment. The only people who says those kinds of things are those that are disappointed by the comment Ion made and are now trying to retaliate in their own way towards High Elf fans who got vindication there.

That seems to be an illogical way of looking at things, and it is illogical because it applies one standard to something you didn't want and another standard to something you do.

Ion ruled out blue eyes for Blood Elves because he said they were inconsistent with the lore. The logical extrapolation of that is that if something is incompatible with a race, it will not be offered as a customisation. This is increasingly borne out as the alpha rolls on and we haven't seen things like goblin gilgoblin customisations, or nathanos like undead, or undead elves, or Eredar skins on Draenei, or Night Elf Worgen.

To celebrate blue eyes not being given to Blood Elves, but to still fully expect your own personal hope of being able to use a Void Elf as a vector for the high elf fantasy through the addition of normal tones, is inconsistent.

Ion can make incorrect statements and correct statements. Believing he is incorrect one time and correct another is frankly okay, no one has to believe every single thing that comes out of a person's mouth, nor has to think everything they say is a lie either.

People do it all it the time with their own circle of friends/family, that's what the word 'misunderstood' is for.

This statement is a license for cherry-picking the facts which you like from the facts you don't. It undermines the integrity of your argument stance if you are declaring you will only accept what the developers say if you agree with it.

Ion was not conversing with family or friends. He was conducting a professional interview in his role as a game director, a role in which he is keenly aware his words will be parsed and examined by a community looking for answers and often too willing to take offence.

A common thread running throughout my own critique of your arguments has been your unerring ability to seemingly hear what you want to hear and to receive confirmations where other people would see denials. That you admit here you are willing to discount statements that don't agree with what you want, and to embrace those you agree with, essentially confirms that critique.

The only course of action with regards to developer statements is to treat them as true until such time as they change their minds and let us know. Nobody can decide to arbitrate what is true and what is not outside of Blizzard.

Ion was legit shown a picture of Vereesa with her Silver Covenant faction rep and title of Ranger-General when the blue eyes question was brought up. He legit was being shown a High Elf of a prominent faction (prominent as in they're an attainable rep for Alliance players) with blue eyes when answering that question.

Zoltan and Cinderys didn't put up Lanesh up there, and Ion had to answer that question knowing he was looking at a High Elf - that's the funniest thing about it.

I think you would be offended at the implications of them asking about blue eyes for Blood Elves and Ion being shown a picture of Veressa as an example. It implies that the members of the same race can be seen as relatively interchangable.