Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Vaedan]

With the tecnology we have today, making enemy spells change colours and all in PvE: Isnt it possible to have some sort of aura "transparent" when you are Alliance and see a velf, and give a Purple effect when Horde sees them?

Slap on some blonde hair, some PURPLE farstrider-tattoos to compromize and voila?
You can now RP a high elf without conflict in PvP.

I for once would rather have a new model though,

The silluette problem is not what is discussed here now. It was one of the solid arguments of the anti-helf community back before void elves were introduced, and to be honest, it was one the arguments that I understood and respected, but void elves made it to the water... ehmm... to the game, and here we are. If you fully equip void elf, you will not tell the difference between him and blood elf in the same equip.

The thing that is discussed now is that high elves would robbed of blood elves of their unique aesthetics and thematics, which is something that pro-helfers believe is not the case, since high elves could provide something that is unique for them. That is dismissed by anti-helfers, since they believe that anything which is thalassian is rightfully blood elven, no matter what.

[Obelisk Kai]

My credibility to who? You and others who have already resolved to prevent Alliance High Elves from becoming playable and thus make consistently disingenuous and hypocritical arguments that eat each other?

Lol, I don't need to have credibility in those eyes and as has been shown by neutral parties that come into this thread to comment on the nature of your posts, it's easy for others who don't have a horse in this race to see the same things as well.

Your credibility in general.

Ion can make incorrect statements and correct statements. Believing he is incorrect one time and correct another is frankly okay, no one has to believe every single thing that comes out of a person's mouth, nor has to think everything they say is a lie either.

You have given yourself a license to cherrypick. If the developers say something you don't like it's incorrect. If they say something you do like it's sacrosanct. That isn't how facts work. As you have admitted this, it is pertinent to point it out that this is your stance regarding what we know.

In regards to the citing of supposedly neutral parties to back your opinion up it was just a weeks ago you were talking about the importance of using 'I' rather than 'we' yet this continuing rhetorical tool of saying 'neutral parties' or 'people who haven't been in the thread before' is a transparent attempt to imply your argument is swaying the undecideds. That is a reach.

So this entire section is you replying to a quote of mine where I said "Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago." and yet you show me videos of statements as far as three years ago and before Ion's April Q&A in 2018 which was the last time any Blizzard employee took a jab when asked about High Elves.

Unsure what point you're making, as it looks like you've missed the point entirely despite it literally being right in what you quoted from me.

Statements from Blizzard Employees, and even Taliesin after that first video you linked, have since then

1) Been supportive of the possibility of High Elves (Afrasiabi emphasizing 'Don't give up hope', Ion mentioning on the showfloor 'the door hasn't closed' 'just because they're not in bfa doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever')

2) Taliesin and Evitel going over the blue eyes datamining and stating people are understandably upset because when players make the High Elf request it's about a specific group that even the game itself recognizes as different from Blood Elves.

So not sure what you were trying to do here, it seems you think linking statements that are prior to what I mention is somehow destroying my statement about the fact that since April 2018 they haven't dismissed the High Elf request and since then approached it with a sense of 'hope'?

Actually your initial point was

"Same to you, you do you as well. Void Elves have never been stated to fulfill the High Elves the Alliance has been requesting and Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago."

Two distinct points, separated by the conjunction and. The evidence I presented was to show that firstly, they did say void elves are a high elf variant for the alliance in place of the exiles and that secondly it's pretty obvious what the intent behind them was anyway which is why I included the Taliesin video.

Attempting to conflate your own points is an attempt to argue you were saying 'Blizzard hasn't stated void elves were the replacement for high elves within the past two years'. That is not what you were saying.

In regards to your other two points, Afrasiabi was talking about void elf customisations rather than high elves. A Void Elf that has high elf customisations is still a void elf. Even were void elves to get skins that rendered them nearly identical to a high elf, they still wouldn't be a high elf. They'd be a void elf, unable to be Paladins.
And his statement here, that it's possible, echoes Ion's own 2013 statement regarding the possibility of high elves as a sub-race. At the time that triggered a level of excitement among pro helfers, but then they sat down and thought about it and came up with void elves. Given what has just happened with blue eyes for blood elves and the absence of anything like gilgoblin skins on goblins and eredar skins on draenei, it looks like they've had their time to sit down and think about things again.
In the very likely event that the void elf customisation pass comes and they don't get those customisations, Afrasiabi's 'it's possible' statement will be defunct, as the opportunity will have arisen and not taken.
(In fact, looping back a bit, the lost codex guys phrase the question as by stating they 'agree that void elves fill that void where the high elves are' and afrasiabi nods at that exact statement. So yet more 'influencers' accepting the obvious intent behind void elves.)

In regards to Taliesin and Evitel, as entertaining as they are, they are not unbiased on this topic. I believe there was an event where one person was wondering about blue eyes for blood elves, BEFORE the news came through, Taliesin apparently said 'that's not what high elf fans want'. Which of course is a clear demonstration of that bias. As it stands, nobody is getting the ideal of a blue eyed human skin tone range elf. A blue eyed Void Elf seems to be goal here.

I don't see how pointing me to the video about Jesse Cox, a video that was Blizzcon 2017 is supposed to change a view about a fan interaction that occurred in Blizzcon 2018. Not making sense there dude.

I'm not claiming others consider it fake, I am saying if you wish to conclude it's real there's an avenue to fact-check.

To tweet Ion about a random fan interaction he had two and a half years ago? I can't even remember half the things I said last week and unless Ion has an eidetic memory then he probably won't recall much of the interaction either. That, and if you follow Watcher on twitter you'll know he doesn't actually tweet very often. And for good reason.

It's funny how you claim Occam's Razor in past statements and then try to delve deep into some extra reasoning for why Ion answered that fan the way he did on the showfloor vs another Blizz employee answering for another fan.

Not really. Occam's razor is applicable to this topic as a whole. They won't add the exiles because they look the same as the Blood Elves, and that's why they made Void Elves. That's really all there is to it. It is the arms race from the pro high elf attempting to prove this wrong, that the exiles are distinct, that has led to deeper and deeper dives into what is said, how it's said, who said it, why they said, what they meant and were they hiding anything. I am happy enough to have those arguments but in reality the basic argument listed at the start of this paragraph is satisfactory.

It also doesn't take away what I mentioned: Both were told the truth. As there is no reason to outright lie about anything concerning a video game.

Except in the 2018 rejection he was addressing an audience of tens of thousands through a camera, whereas in the fan interaction he was having a human interaction with a fan. In truth, all he said to the fan was what he said in the rejection.

He just phrased it a lot nicer.

Also you can't open a door that isn't closed, because it's already open And ofc the difference between the fan interaction is one Blizzard employee could confirm dark skins were happening as opposed to trying to confirm something that wasn't happening for 3-4 years. The similarity is they are both genuine answers with a different purpose.

One is confirming something because it's already happening, the other is confirming that a playable option isn't impossible while also clarifying that because they're not in now (BFA) doesn't mean they won't ever be. Both genuine answers for fans that asked genuine question

The context of the response is that a closed door is permanently sealed and can't be reopened, thus no door is closed to Blizzard. Attempting to conflate the dark skin response with the high elf response are two different things. Because dark skins for blood elves were happening, whereas Ion was trying to not ruin this fan's day by restating the rejection as snarkily as he had done so earlier in the year.

The progress was that interaction with the fan, and Afrasiabi's statement, the new system of increased customizations and revamped character creation screen, the acknowledgement of the topic in the latest April Fool's, as well as no blue eyes for blood elves - something which many thought was a forgone conclusion.


That's the progress you keep attempting to ignore as seemingly all statements concerning High Elves have stopped for you since April 2018 during that Q&A as you can do nothing else but keep going back in time whereas everyone's been moving forward and many understand the High Elf topic was not one that was going to be resolved so soon.

None of those were progress. The fan interaction was a gentle letdown and we can't even verify what was said. The Afrasiabi statement was about void elves. The increased customisations are a holistic system for everyone. The April Fool's topic was them poking fun at you for the third or fourth time in a three year period. And no blue eyes for blood elves is unfortunate, but demonstrated that thinking something is going to happen doesn't necessarily equate to it happening if it violates the lore, such as your personal request for fair skin tones on void elves.

What these are discrete events you've cobbled together from your own perspective into a march of progress. The real result was all that has happened is that Ion ruled out blue eyes for blood elves. And he noted the different eye colours as minute, irrelevant differences in the 2018 rejection. In other words, your progress has been capped off by an affirmation of the status quo. Forgive me, but doesn't progress involve at least some genuine forward movement?

If I recall the answer John Hight gave regarding Wildhammer Dwarves was also 'Anything's possible in the future' and we see that now with Shadowlands since Dwarves are an original race and are currently being worked on.

Except they aren't explicitly Wildhammer Dwarves, though you can certainly roleplay a Dwarf with those tattoos that way, and there is a world of difference between adding tattoos to an existing core race and adding skin tones incompatible with the fantasy of the existing allied race, particularly as those skin tones are the core difference between them and their parent race.

When they add Dark Iron skin tones to Dwarves, this particular point may have more weight.

We have yet to see what's coming concerning High Elves as the Void Elf are an Allied Race and thus do not yet know how Blizzard are going to handle it, will they include High Elf options into Void Elves as a mentioned possibility by Afrasiabi or will they have High Elves be a stand-alone option among Void Elves in the Alliance as Ion's answer on the showfloor implied that possibility still exists.

They could make Jaina the Lich Queen tomorrow. That possibility hypothetically exists. You can of course list all the reasons why that won't happen and shouldn't happen, but it is still hypothetically possible. There is a difference between hypothetically possible and genuinely possible.

It's a question we'll have to wait and see, despite you constantly trying to argue as if it's done and dealt with.

I am under no illusions that will be the end of the matter. But it should be a respite once the void elf customisation pass happens. Given they were one of the first allied races, their pass should happen early in the lifecycle of Shadowlands.

To quote the wisdom of a great ancestor, "Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer."

Also, Obelisk was very very confident that blue eyes would come to Blood Elves, so there's already viewable experience with overconfidence there.

To be honest you should have hoped I was proven right. Had I been, I was prepared for you to cite blue eyes as evidence that Blizzard isn't fixated on keeping the races as locked in as they previously had been and that it meant high elf skin tones on Void Elves were more likely.

The corollary of the lore based rejection establishes a principle expressed by Moorgard, who was called up to review the propositions and ensure none violated lore. That if it breaks lore, it isn't happening, no matter how logical a proposition it appears to those pushing it or how popular it is.

If blue eyes are turned into another means of keeping void elves as distinct from blood elves as possible, I can easily accept that as the result.

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I just did the quest to have Quel'Delar with a void elf.
I had never done this quest, by dint of reading in this thread references about her, I said to myself, I have to do it one day.
It was magic, the best moment was when Lor'themar was knocked out by the sword when he wanted to take it.

This thread at least served me to make content that I had not yet done.



Sunwell and Void Elf

The Alliance version is likely non-canon. As with Khadgar wielding atiesh, despite players being able to reassemble the staff in classic, Lady Liadrin now wields Quel'delar.

This means that the Horde version of the quest is as close as possible to what actually happened, although the player would be replaced by Liadrin as the recipient.

[Vaedan]

The Alliance version is likely non-canon. As with Khadgar wielding atiesh, despite players being able to reassemble the staff in classic, Lady Liadrin now wields Quel'delar.

This means that the Horde version of the quest is as close as possible to what actually happened, although the player would be replaced by Liadrin as the recipient.

You are most likely right, since she was a wielder of Quel'delar in WoD and Legion, but her new model is not wielding it and she is using unique sword. I wonder, what happened to the blade?

[Obelisk Kai]

You are most likely right, since she was a wielder of Quel'delar in WoD and Legion, but her new model is not wielding it and she is using unique sword. I wonder, what happened to the blade?

The simplest explanation would be that it is held as an heirloom of the blood elf people in Silvermoon.

Although I hope they don't ask my Mage for felo'melorn back quite yet.

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As for the humans, gnomes, I agree that there is no evidence that dark skin is something against lore, but there are now more features which points out to certain ethnics. This is something which has not been explored in Warcraft before, so it is natural that community asks if it is based by lore - is my black or asian human coming from some specific place? Does he/she has specific culture? The answer from Blizzard is no. It is there purely for the purpose to let players create more detailed and nuanced character. There is no asian human kingdom, and probably there will not be.

Blood elves and dwarves on the other hand are another story. Black skinned dwarves were always only Dark Irons and it was one of their core thematics which differentiate them amongs other clans. Blood elves are clearly described as fair skinned, both by lore sources, and even by Word of God, as you call it. You even have it in your signature. There are hints that usage of fel magic darkens skin of blood elves to some extent, but I am not sure if it is cannon. That is actually something that need explanation, since we have a race, described as pale, in contrast to their ancestors, which used to have darker skin and so far, it was one of the difference between night elves and blood elves. To be honest, I don't mind adding black skin tones to blood elves, but I think it could use little explanation. Only claiming it is due to sunwell's influence could be enough, since it is font of holy energy now, and blood elves are clearly defining themselves as "Sun elves" now, but right now, we don't have any explanation why all of sudden blood elves got dark skin, while it was previously stated they are pale.

What I meant is that if blood elves get new identity of Sun elves, or to be more accurate, if their current identity of sun elves is further developed, it is natural evolution of Sin'dorei. It does mean that Blizzard can develop another theme to differentiate blood and void elves. I can easily picture blood elves in more tanned tones, using red, gold and green colours and fully embracing the light, and on the other hand pale void elves in blue, silver and purple palette.

I don't think void elves will actually get full palette of human like skin tones, but getting some is not that unimaginable, especially if we get new lore which support it, like void elves guiding those high/blood elven initiates in Telogrus to the transformation similar to those of Alleria. Perhaps moving their skin tones more to the night elves is more possible. You never know if something that happens or not, but it is possibility. We can discuss the odds of such implementation, but it will be still only discussion based on our personal opinions. It can easily happen. There are hints from Blizzard that it is likely void elves will get some form of "high elf" customization. We don't know what it will look like, and if Blizzard decides to do so, they can easily produce new lore to validate that addition. I agree with you that for some people, even high elf customization on void elves will not be enough, but still it is now the most appropriate way of giving high elf community the option to play the fantasy they want, and not adding another elf race.

I disagree to an extent. Part of the reason there was a confidence regarding blue eyes for blood elves was the precedent of existing blue eyed blood elves and an interpretation of lore that appeared consistent with lore as we understood it, namely that if golden eyes are because of the holy energies of the sunwell, then blue eyes should be possible through it's arcane aspect.

However, as Blizzard disagreed, creating new lore would have been required to facilitate the request. Blizzard seems to have little interest in writing new lore to justify changes. This is why I say, even if you can make a case for something, and even if that case makes sense, that ultimately won't mean a thing for Blizzard. They will give you all the options on your avatar they want, so long as it is consistent with what the race is. It's why blood elves aren't getting blue eyes. It's why void elves almost certainly won't get human range skin tones (given the entire justification of void elves as an allied race is reliant on them looking different from blood elves).

As for the impact of certain magics on skin tone, most of them do that. We know where the fel eventually led though as some Blood Elves went all the way.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Felblood_elf

Reds, blues, browns, grays, all outside the human range of skin tones.

Similarly, creatures 'corrupted' or infused by the light tend towards the pale, as with the lightforged Draenei or lightbound undead calia.

Void Creatures darken along a blue-purple spectrum. The broken Krokuul, the void ravasaurs, the ethereals, the voidstriders. It's a commonality amongst all creatures so afflicted. A Void Elf that was outside this spectrum wouldn't just clash with the rationale underpinning their existence, they'd clash with all other precedent in lore on what happens when the void infuses you. Alleria isn't even an exception given her true form is as even more voided out than the other void elves.

[matrix123mko]

Void elf bug in Shadowlands. Entropic Embrace racial proc is normally darker than on live in SL, but for some reason it bugged and check out how my void elf looked like during it:

Without Entropic Embrace:


During Entropic Embrace:

If they could get this bug as an option.

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I just did the quest to have Quel'Delar with a void elf.
I had never done this quest, by dint of reading in this thread references about her, I said to myself, I have to do it one day.
It was magic, the best moment was when Lor'themar was knocked out by the sword when he wanted to take it.

This thread at least served me to make content that I had not yet done.



Sunwell and Void Elf

Liadrin doesn't seem to be happy.

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Like this?

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...loodelf.322612

I think it needs some refining. The colour swap is pretty cheap here. The shadows on the hair could get a bit different, more orange hue. The skin can go reddish in some places and have more golden highlights.

[Kyriani]

SNIP

I have a bit of a problem with how you post. You tend to speak in absolutes as if you have actual insight/authority into Blizzard's process and intentions (do you? are you a Blizzard dev?) rather than speaking as if what you're saying are opinions and/or assumptions (which they largely seem to be if you aren't a dev). I get that you may feel that you're making solid logical conclusions based on your interpretations of various interviews and comments, but I think you would benefit from adjusting how you phrase your points so you don't come off as if your conclusions are definitively correct and your logical is infallible. I'm not saying you actually feel that way (how the hell would I know?), and obviously tone is hard to convey via text, but your posts do "feel" like that to me and I can see why it engenders hostility from those on the pro side of the debate.

On to your post... I don't agree that existing lore "rules out" other elves following in Alleria's footsteps. Unless I've missed something, nothing in the existing lore has defined the specifics and limitations of the process Alleria went through. We only see a small slice of her specific journey in the Argus campaign, have seen some tidbits in media outside of the game, and have barely scratched the depths of what Locus Walker actually knows. Would my hypothetical situation require the devs to provide additional information to flesh out what we know of the process? Yes, I won't deny that, but for the sake of the hypothetical, if Blizzard expands on the lore and has Locus Walker say something like, "We don't have an abundance of dark naaru's at hand but several lesser void beings can be used in place of a single dark naaru", then... we're good right?

You said "existing lore rules that out" (implying that the lore definitively says we can't do it with any substitutions) when in fact the existing lore we have on the process is incredibly limited and doesn't actually say that it can't be done with something other than a dark naaru. It only shows/tells us how it was done this one time. Additional lore from the devs can expand on the process and what alternatives might be viable. You're focused on the rarity of dark naaru and completely shutting down any possibility of an alternative to using a dark naaru in the process.

I also don't agree that the method that created Umbric's squad is "easy" in any way, shape, or form. I believe in this case your bias is showing. In arguing against using Alleria's method, you took great pains to point out specifics of the process (from what little we know of it) and yet when arguing for using Nether-Prince Durzaan's method (if you can call it that), you've glossed over the minutiae and said "Merely bombard a target with void energy until they begin transforming and then stop at a moment when they are midway between an elf and an ethereal". Really? It's that easy? You have the dev lore bible at hand and it says this is all that it takes? I'm sorry but no that just isn't going to fly.

Nether-Prince Durzaan performed a ritual to transform Umbric's squad into creatures of the void. That ritual was interrupted with no way of knowing exactly how far in to the ritual it was, or what exactly happened during the interruption. Nor are we privy to the specifics of the ritual, its power, or its limitations. You just assumed that all Durzaan was doing was "bombarding them with void energy". I'm inclined to think there was much more complexity to the process than that. You made such a valiant effort to argue against using Alleria's method but then just hand waved away any roadblocks to turning what was objectively an accident, into a controlled, stable, and ultimately safe process that could be done with ease. That's really not a fair way to present things.

You make the same hand-wavy assumption with the ravasaurs. We are never told the specifics of the spells the void elves are using to animate the ravasaur constructs. You just assumed all they are doing is "blasting them with void energy". I'm fairly certain there was more to it than that. I also don't think its fair to point at the mount, something that was obviously made to match the void elf theme and heritage armor, and just make up stuff so as to support your argument.

As to the idea of void elves making more currently... Blizzard is on record as saying that Void Elves are not actively recruiting though they are looking for a way to make more. But right now there is no way to make more Void Elves, at least not the kind that we have playable, and there is nothing in game to contradict that. I believe that the npcs we see in Telegrous would fall under Blizzard's "there are as many of them as we need there to be for the story" policy. I would also say that's the same reason there were suddenly a ton of disposable void elf npc's in the Nazmir suicide army. I don't think it wise to base any population assumptions on what we see in game.

As to the idea of void elves being a "compromise"... As far as I know, Blizzard has never said that Void Elves are any sort of "compromise" in regards to High Elves. Reading into what is said in interviews and making assumptions on what that means is all well and good when you convey that that's what you're doing, but implying that it definitively means something that has never actually been said (from what I've seen/heard) is disingenuous. But please, if it has actually been said in those words, provide a source and I'll gladly cede that specific point.

I would urge you to consider my earlier advice about your posting. You certainly seem very sure of yourself and your conclusions about things, but I would say its wise to remember you aren't a dev (unless you are?), you can't actually speak on behalf of the devs (unless you are a dev of course), and your logic isn't infallible, nor are you without bias. And even if your logical were infallible, retcons happen all the time and game design can shift drastically at the drop of a hat. And wow that was quite the wall of text >_<

[ravenmoon]

Well, there's an agenda behind taking the most narrow interpretation as the correct one which is "If it's impossible for high elves to be void elves, we could still have high elves as a standalone race on the Alliance". It's a pretty absurd proposition with the introduction of the Ren'dorei. Imagine requesting two variations of an opposing faction's core race for any other playable group in game. It would never be taken seriously. It would be like if the Alliance got Lightforged and Mag'har orcs while the Horde only had the original green, Ogrimmar-based variety. The very notion is preposterous.

and @

Odintdk

. In this case I'll agree here. However don't forget that what makes High elves a different proposition is because they are long standing on the alliance too. And while most of the Thalassians are horde, some are alliance.

Unfortunately making a playable option tends to not reflect the reality that the actual void and high elf numbers are really small, so most Thalssians you will meet would be sin'dorei. If that could be properly reflected even in player populations then it would hardly matter, it would be like allowing a tauren player or Mag'har orc player to switch factions on his character, and making it very hard knowing that only a few people would be that motivated to make it happen.


I personally don't feel it is impossible for high elves to be void elves, I think High elves able to become void elves is shown in Telogrus rift - whether the new ones get a skin colour change or remain like Alleria is unknown. Blizzard certainly has the option of making void elves in their original colour or some of these renditions people have shown with purple veined hands and feet etc. Other options including only giving the high elf skin tones to new class Paladin option for void elves, whose skin would not be altered by the void, and possibly have the option available on priests too, to reflect holy priests.

One would ask why a void elf is wielding the Light though, however original lore in the Alleria audio novella makes it clear that embracing the destiny of the void doesn't make the character incapable of using or excelling in the light. However as the void elves mainly focus on the void, you would have to provide a logical reason why a light follower is involved. It's not hard though, elves are curious and scholarly, so it's easy to imagine a group of light using high elves interested in studying the interaction, and always worked alongside void researchers providing professional counterbalancing in an effort for the elves to understand these cosmic powers more.

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I have a bit of a problem with how you post. You tend to speak in absolutes as if you have actual insight/authority into Blizzard's process and intentions (do you? are you a Blizzard dev?) rather than speaking as if what you're saying are opinions and/or assumptions (which they largely seem to be if you aren't a dev). I get that you may feel that you're making solid logical conclusions based on your

interpretations

of various interviews and comments, but I think you would benefit from adjusting how you phrase your points so you don't come off as if your conclusions are definitively correct and your logical is infallible. I'm not saying you actually feel that way (how the hell would I know?), and obviously tone is hard to convey via text, but your posts do "feel" like that to me and I can see why it engenders hostility from those on the pro side of the debate.

On to your post... I don't agree that existing lore "rules out" other elves following in Alleria's footsteps. Unless I've missed something, nothing in the existing lore has defined the specifics and limitations of the process Alleria went through. We only see a small slice of her specific journey in the Argus campaign, have seen some tidbits in media outside of the game, and have barely scratched the depths of what Locus Walker actually knows. Would my hypothetical situation require the devs to provide

additional information

to flesh out what we know of the process? Yes, I won't deny that, but for the sake of the hypothetical, if Blizzard expands on the lore and has Locus Walker say something like, "We don't have an abundance of dark naaru's at hand but several lesser void beings can be used in place of a single dark naaru", then... we're good right?

You said "existing lore rules that out" (implying that the lore definitively says we can't do it with any substitutions) when in fact the existing lore we have on the process is incredibly limited and doesn't actually say that it can't be done with something other than a dark naaru. It only shows/tells us how it was done this one time. Additional lore from the devs can expand on the process and what alternatives might be viable. You're focused on the rarity of dark naaru and completely shutting down any possibility of an alternative to using a dark naaru in the process.

<snip>

The way Obelsik often writes sometimes makes me wonder if he realises there is a difference between what existing lore prohibits and what existing lore doesn't define.

Also whether he realises that when people talk about options and aspects they desire that aren't available yet, they are automatically going beyond the realm of existing lore. In order for their desired preference to occur, lore would have to be added.

Now a lot of people do make arguments entirely based on exsiting lore for some of the options they want. But what is funny is that despite all the essays, is that it actuall ydoesn't and has never mattered whether existing lore supports it or not. Because lore can be written to make it happen if that's what the devs want to do.

Most arguments seem to be between people caught in these two paradigms, ones looking to get what they want, and others who can't see any future not already outlined in existing lore and use that to basically tell people their dreams and desires are invalid because the lore doesn't currently support them.

It's quite ridiculous if you ask me, and obnoxious to boot to tell people you can't dsire that or want that , and use the lore as some sort of shield or justification. How can it be? they may not realise I, but their pretext is clearly seen by those who are able to perceive, the lore is just an excuse they use to for basically trying to impose their desire for someone elses dream not to happen.

In this case, OP and those who support him want high elves to be playable, that's their desire and dream, Obelisk Kai, doesn't want high elves to be playable and is using the lore as his shield, he has even crossed swords with many horde fans who actually also don't want high elves playable because he has involed the lore, sometimes incorrectly to tell them they can't dream, they can't desire. Some of those horde fans have stepped him effectively trying to show that this is nowt what the lore is saying.

I say incorrect, because you really can't use the lore on a video game to tell a person they can't desire something or dream something will happen. I wonder if I would have to explain that or is he too far gone to see ?

[Ardenaso]

I think it needs some refining. The colour swap is pretty cheap here. The shadows on the hair could get a bit different, more orange hue. The skin can go reddish in some places and have more golden highlights.

How about this? (just change the eyes to green)

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...eforged.324171

[Broflake]

Wrong

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vereesa_Windrunner

Silvermoon Messenger says: I bring word from the Regent Lord of Silvermoon.
Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands.

Vereesa being called an exile, this is in Cata btw after the aforementioned 'elves are allowed to make pilgrimages! since Wrath!'

One can thus extrapolate if Vereesa is exiled so is her contingent of High Elves, the Silver Covenant. And that we do not see any High Elves coming back to associate with Silvermoon or Quel'thalas (as in there's no known High Elves, who claim to be High Elves and not Blood Elves) means the High Elves are exiled from Silvermoon.

Also Alleria was brought to visit but quickly exiled after it was shown her Void presence causes danger to the Sunwell. So yes, Alleria is exiled as well, just because Lor'themar didn't immediately order it doesn't it didn't occur just moments after.

Alleria is a war hero after all, until the void incident she was heralded as a major figure in all of Silvermoon.

These are huge logical leaps for several reasons.

For one, the order to conduct the exiling was done by lor'themar after the scourge raided their home. Vereesa, Alleria, nor Auric Sunchaser were present for these events, nor did they participate in the splitting of the group as they were elsewhere. So why would they be exiled from their home when they have nothing to do with the aforementioned events?
Secondly, in Shadows of the Sun, Lor'themar goes out to the high elves who were exiled, and the only high elves he visits are those of quel'lithien whom he regrets exiling and even makes a gesture of peace to bring them back in. They refuse.

Third, the word exile can refer to many things. The other definition is one who chooses not to return home and bars themselves from it. This is confirmed by Ion who stated the only high elves left are those who chose not to return home. So we can immediately surmise that high elves such as Vereesa are not formerly exiled, particularly given the fact they repeatedly go into ghostland territory in three sisters which is held by the blood elves.

Finally, no, Alleria is not exiled. It is blatantly stated she was immediately welcomed into Silvermoon the moment she stepped in, and when Rommath protested her seeing the sunwell Lorthermar disagreed and stated flatly I will not deny any child of quel'thalas their birth right.. Which is in direct support of his actions in Shadow of the Sun, wotLK with the high elves being at the sunwell, with Vereesa being allowed to help (since he could have overruled halduron but chose not to), and with the nightborne heritage quest in which Alleria is allowed to come by.
Alleria was exiled ONLY because of the danger she presented to the Sunwell and NOT because she is a void elf by nature. So as much as you want ot go ALLERIA IS EXILED, she isn't a high elf and she wasn't exiled for being a high elf which your argument is proposing. It is a disingenuous statement on your part

but hey, let's focus on that one statement made by a messenger of lor'themar and not lor'themar himself as evidence of the high elves being exiled even though no literature supports it.

- - - Updated - - -

[matrix123mko]

How about this? (just change the eyes to green)

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...eforged.324171

This is a great model. However, I would make the tattoos a bit more transparent.

[Lahis]

I just did the quest to have Quel'Delar with a void elf.
I had never done this quest, by dint of reading in this thread references about her, I said to myself, I have to do it one day.
It was magic, the best moment was when Lor'themar was knocked out by the sword when he wanted to take it.

This thread at least served me to make content that I had not yet done.



Sunwell and Void Elf

Huh. They haven't changed Liadrin's model for that quest.

[ddi2]

My argument is my argument, what I need to argue and what I should argue is determined by me, not by you. You can dislike it, and that is essentially where it is, perhaps you should refrain from telling people their argument is bullshit, and try to suggest they are lesser for not arguing what you desire.
Instead, focus on your own argument and determining what supports it because I am not seeing much to keep it as well polished as you believe.

Yes, I believe some arguments are a dishonest demagogy, indeed, which some of yours are. Some arguments do hold weight, which some of yours also are. I would prefer if you stuck with those that actually hold weight in Blizzard's eyes and are based on what Blizzard says, instead of what you think matters when it really doesn't and and the fact that it doesn't is obviously seen in the game. When you speak about faction identity and what tropes should be presented in a faction, this has merit as this is also Blizzard's own argument. When you start mentioning lore-friendliness, or some other silly arguments like roleplaying, it honestly feels like a waste of time, both mine and yours.

[Frenchvince]

Huh. They haven't changed Liadrin's model for that quest.

She only has her new weapons (sword and shield) with their unique skin. Besides, his eyes are not golden, surely an oversight among so many others...

Lor'Themar has its new appearance.

[bobwuzhere1224]

As for the humans, gnomes, I agree that there is no evidence that dark skin is something against lore, but there are now more features which points out to certain ethnics. This is something which has not been explored in Warcraft before, so it is natural that community asks if it is based by lore - is my black or asian human coming from some specific place? Does he/she has specific culture? The answer from Blizzard is no. It is there purely for the purpose to let players create more detailed and nuanced character. There is no asian human kingdom, and probably there will not be.

Blood elves and dwarves on the other hand are another story. Black skinned dwarves were always only Dark Irons and it was one of their core thematics which differentiate them amongs other clans. Blood elves are clearly described as fair skinned, both by lore sources, and even by Word of God, as you call it. You even have it in your signature. There are hints that usage of fel magic darkens skin of blood elves to some extent, but I am not sure if it is cannon. That is actually something that need explanation, since we have a race, described as pale, in contrast to their ancestors, which used to have darker skin and so far, it was one of the difference between night elves and blood elves. To be honest, I don't mind adding black skin tones to blood elves, but I think it could use little explanation. Only claiming it is due to sunwell's influence could be enough, since it is font of holy energy now, and blood elves are clearly defining themselves as "Sun elves" now, but right now, we don't have any explanation why all of sudden blood elves got dark skin, while it was previously stated they are pale.

What I meant is that if blood elves get new identity of Sun elves, or to be more accurate, if their current identity of sun elves is further developed, it is natural evolution of Sin'dorei. It does mean that Blizzard can develop another theme to differentiate blood and void elves. I can easily picture blood elves in more tanned tones, using red, gold and green colours and fully embracing the light, and on the other hand pale void elves in blue, silver and purple palette.

I don't think void elves will actually get full palette of human like skin tones, but getting some is not that unimaginable, especially if we get new lore which support it, like void elves guiding those high/blood elven initiates in Telogrus to the transformation similar to those of Alleria. Perhaps moving their skin tones more to the night elves is more possible. You never know if something that happens or not, but it is possibility. We can discuss the odds of such implementation, but it will be still only discussion based on our personal opinions. It can easily happen. There are hints from Blizzard that it is likely void elves will get some form of "high elf" customization. We don't know what it will look like, and if Blizzard decides to do so, they can easily produce new lore to validate that addition. I agree with you that for some people, even high elf customization on void elves will not be enough, but still it is now the most appropriate way of giving high elf community the option to play the fantasy they want, and not adding another elf race.

Given the rarity of Dark Naaru's in general, any transformation ritual won't be like Alleria's. Infusing beings with Enough void to get graped without becoming an Etheral seems more likely given how there's evidence in Assaults and mounts as Velves transforming creatures into void versions.

[Broflake]

Yes, I believe some arguments are a dishonest demagogy, indeed, which some of yours are. Some arguments do hold weight, which some of yours also are. I would prefer if you stuck with those that actually hold weight in Blizzard's eyes and are based on what Blizzard says, instead of what you think matters when it really doesn't and and the fact that it doesn't is obviously seen in the game. When you speak about faction identity and what tropes should be presented in a faction, this has merit as this is also Blizzard's own argument. When you start mentioning lore-friendliness, or some other silly arguments like roleplaying, it honestly feels like a waste of time, both mine and yours.

Ddi2, do you have an actual argument to make or something to refute my points? This entire paragraph is essentially the complaint of "I don't like your argument" and what you do, or do not like, has no relevance here. If you can refute it, then do so, if you can't, then you'll have to cede the points.

[bobwuzhere1224]

Huh. They haven't changed Liadrin's model for that quest.

I wish some models would stay stuck in their respective timelines more.

[Broflake]

She only has her new weapons (sword and shield) with their unique skin. Besides, his eyes are not golden, surely an oversight among so many others...

Lor'Themar has its new appearance.

The model didn't change because for each time an NPC appears, its appearance needs to be coded accordingly.
So, Liadrin's appearance for quel'dalar codes for her original green eye appearance and to fix it, means they'd have to go back and code it so that it uses the face with golden eyes.

I am unsure what you are referring to by new appearance French.


Anyway congrats on getting that battered hilt. I have yet to acquire one.

[Frenchvince]

I am unsure what you are referring to by new appearance French.

I mean, Lor'Themar has the new appearance "the unique skin" that he received during BFA. For him it is normal, now he appears in this form.

[Broflake]

I mean, Lor'Themar has the new appearance "the unique skin" that he received during BFA. For him it is normal, now he appears in this form.

Ah, probably the way they replaced it.
More than likely they removed his old model entirely from the files, put the new one in, gave it the same name as the previous model to make ti easier to code.
Liadrin's model isn't as unique, they just swapped "heads" to give her the gold eye look.
I would not be surprised if its BE_Head_2 after Legion and on that she uses where as WotlK is BE_Head_1 or something.

[FlubberPuddy]

These are huge logical leaps for several reasons.

For one, the order to conduct the exiling was done by lor'themar after the scourge raided their home. Vereesa, Alleria, nor Auric Sunchaser were present for these events, nor did they participate in the splitting of the group as they were elsewhere. So why would they be exiled from their home when they have nothing to do with the aforementioned events?
Secondly, in Shadows of the Sun, Lor'themar goes out to the high elves who were exiled, and the only high elves he visits are those of quel'lithien whom he regrets exiling and even makes a gesture of peace to bring them back in. They refuse.

Third, the word exile can refer to many things. The other definition is one who chooses not to return home and bars themselves from it. This is confirmed by Ion who stated the only high elves left are those who chose not to return home. So we can immediately surmise that high elves such as Vereesa are not formerly exiled, particularly given the fact they repeatedly go into ghostland territory in three sisters which is held by the blood elves.

Finally, no, Alleria is not exiled. It is blatantly stated she was immediately welcomed into Silvermoon the moment she stepped in, and when Rommath protested her seeing the sunwell Lorthermar disagreed and stated flatly I will not deny any child of quel'thalas their birth right.. Which is in direct support of his actions in Shadow of the Sun, wotLK with the high elves being at the sunwell, with Vereesa being allowed to help (since he could have overruled halduron but chose not to), and with the nightborne heritage quest in which Alleria is allowed to come by.
Alleria was exiled ONLY because of the danger she presented to the Sunwell and NOT because she is a void elf by nature. So as much as you want ot go ALLERIA IS EXILED, she isn't a high elf and she wasn't exiled for being a high elf which your argument is proposing. It is a disingenuous statement on your part

but hey, let's focus on that one statement made by a messenger of lor'themar and not lor'themar himself as evidence of the high elves being exiled even though no literature supports it.

Like Frenchvince said, take it up with the devs. Vereesa is called an exile, thus she's exiled. And I'm glad you admit Alleria was also exiled. We still don't see any High Elves (aka high elves with blue eyes and not blood elves) hanging around the Blood Elves in any capacity.

Ergo it appears high elves are exiles. Ion even mentions blue eyes doesn't make sense for blood elves and we see blood elf children in the game with green eyes only, potentially yellow going forward.

If High Elves weren't exiled you'd expect to see some in/around Blood Elves' homes/hangouts/camps/forts etc.