Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[ddi2]

Ddi2, do you have an actual argument to make or something to refute my points? This entire paragraph is essentially the complaint of "I don't like your argument" and what you do, or do not like, has no relevance here. If you can refute it, then do so, if you can't, then you'll have to cede the points.

Was planning to reply to your post point by point but then I just didn't see the point of doing it. I've asked you to explain what does the faction has to do with whether Kul'Tirans can get an new model and High Elves can't. You have written paragraphs after paragraphs seemingly answering this question but in fact not touching it at all, essentially dodging the explanation and then claiming that "I don't like your arguments" or "ignoring nuance you provide", lol. Well, sorry, I don't see the point of me saying that your arguments don't work and don't actually prove your point and you saying "I just don't like them" over and over again.

To be fair to you though, you've finally given a relevant argument about this point in your last post:

"Such as the developers stating "The body type of the kul tirans is not exclusive to them and is going to be used for all humans.".
Which means, if you are someone who RP's, that kul tiran body type can be used for someone who is from Stormwind, or a non-infected Gilnean, or a human who lives in a village elsewhere.
It is not exclusive to Kul Tirans."

This argument though, first, is wrong, because when you choose a character, you choose a specific member of a specific faction. For example, if you play Humans, you are not playing an Alterac Human or Gilnean Human, you are playing specifically a Stormwing Human from a specific time and place. And while you can RP by pretending this is not true, it is still pretending that you are playing a character you aren't actually playing.

Secondly, a Kul'Tiran body type being exclusive to Kul'Tirans gameplay-wise but not exclusive to them lore-wise is an argument in my favour, not yours.

Some of your other arguments were basically you telling me what I should like and accept which is just silly and not worth a serious discussion.

Again, the faction identity argument is the only one that matters and the only one Blizzard considers. I seriously don't want to waste time on other irrelevant demagogy. Wasted enough of it.

[Broflake]

Like Frenchvince said, take it up with the devs. Vereesa is called an exile, thus she's exiled.

You do realize the bat swings both ways right?
If the nightborne recruitement quest states Alleria was not an exile until after the sunwell incident, then it means she was not exiled.

And I'm glad you admit Alleria was also exiled.

See, here is the issue with your arguments.

You go "Alleria is an exile because all high elves are exiles!" This was your original premise. It was a false one

Then I point out "She wasn't exiled on account of being a high elf since she wasn't there for the incident" That was my point

You then go "but she was exiled after the sunwell incident. So im glad to see you agree with me." This is your point.

It is a rather pathetic attempt at a gotcha attempt that completely undermines your argument entirely.
Want to try that again in a format that does not allow people to read the line of arguments?

Sorry, Alleria was not exiled because she was a high elf, especially when everyone thought she was dead when she and auric and the others went to Outland. It makes absolutely no sense from any narrative point.

I can see it now

Lorthemar: I exile ALL high elves, including Alleria who we think is dead along with auric sunchaser and the others who we think are dead in Outland even though they aren't responsible for the schism in anyway! 8D

I don't believe you thought that argument through.

We still don't see any High Elves (aka high elves with blue eyes and not blood elves) hanging around the Blood Elves in any capacity.

Sunwell in WotlK

Ergo it appears high elves are exiles.

This is bad logic. You do realize the blood elves do work and associate with high elves in the Suramar campaign, so does this mean they are no longer exiles? The logic does not make sense at all. Being an exile means you are barred from your home, but we know this is not the case given the WotLK expansion as well as the latest nightborne recruitement quest. So you can't keep making a statement that is unsupported.

Ion even mentions blue eyes doesn't make sense for blood elves and we see blood elf children in the game with green eyes only, potentially yellow going forward.

If High Elves weren't exiled you'd expect to see some in/around Blood Elves' homes/hangouts/camps/forts etc.

This isn't real life bud, its a video game. Why would the devs put in such background details without reason?
Secondly, high elves are an extreme minority, you wouldn't expect to see them peppered all over the place.
Thirdly, devs stated the high elves left are those that chose not to return home. So if they didn't return home, and the blood elves are still at home, why would they be present?

Fourth, none of the areas that are in game have been updated in Cata. This is a silly argument for you to even make.
"Well we should see it".
yeah and Silvermoon was rebuilt but this isnt shown in game. I guess silvermoon is still in ruins.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

Dude, I am not going to waste time reading your paragraph long complaint. Either address the argument, or you'll need to secede the point.

This argument though, first, is wrong, because when you choose a character, you choose a specific member of a specific faction. For example, if you play Humans, you are not playing an Alterac Human or Gilnean Human, you are playing specifically a Stormwing Human from a specific time and place. And while you can RP by pretending this is not true, it is still pretending that you are playing a character you aren't actually playing.

Your counter argument is false given the statement by the developers in regards to the body types as well as the statements made by them preceding shadowlands.
In essence, now, when you make your dwarf look like a wildhammer dwarf, you can say you are a wildhammer. You are no longer going to be a human who is of stormwind and only stormwind. You are a human, and your background is your own. Per the devs, this is to give players more freedom in their own origin and how they view themselves.

Secondly, a Kul'Tiran body type being exclusive to Kul'Tirans gameplay-wise but not exclusive to them lore-wise is an argument in my favour, not yours.

That's a nice story and all, feel free to explain how, otherwise, you're just making a claim for the sake of making one.

Some of your other arguments were basically you telling me what I should like and accept which is just silly and not worth a serious discussion.

You do realize this is the exact point I was making right?
That what you like and accept is silly and not worth a serious discussion.
Your lack of self awareness is worrisome.

Again, the faction identity argument is the only one that matters and the only one Blizzard considers. I seriously don't want to waste time on other irrelevant demagogy. Wasted enough of it.

You do realize design and the like is entirely relevant towards faction identity yes>
I am glad you like the word demagogy but do not use it to describe my arguments when it describes yours.
After all, you're the only one going on and on about how you feel about others arguments and how those feelings determines whether or not they hold relevance.

[FlubberPuddy]

I have a bit of a problem with how you post. You tend to speak in absolutes as if you have actual insight/authority into Blizzard's process and intentions (do you? are you a Blizzard dev?) rather than speaking as if what you're saying are opinions and/or assumptions (which they largely seem to be if you aren't a dev). I get that you may feel that you're making solid logical conclusions based on your interpretations of various interviews and comments, but I think you would benefit from adjusting how you phrase your points so you don't come off as if your conclusions are definitively correct and your logical is infallible. I'm not saying you actually feel that way (how the hell would I know?), and obviously tone is hard to convey via text, but your posts do "feel" like that to me and I can see why it engenders hostility from those on the pro side of the debate.

SNIP

As to the idea of void elves being a "compromise"... As far as I know, Blizzard has never said that Void Elves are any sort of "compromise" in regards to High Elves. Reading into what is said in interviews and making assumptions on what that means is all well and good when you convey that that's what you're doing, but implying that it definitively means something that has never actually been said (from what I've seen/heard) is disingenuous. But please, if it has actually been said in those words, provide a source and I'll gladly cede that specific point.

I would urge you to consider my earlier advice about your posting. You certainly seem very sure of yourself and your conclusions about things, but I would say its wise to remember you aren't a dev (unless you are?), you can't actually speak on behalf of the devs (unless you are a dev of course), and your logic isn't infallible, nor are you without bias. And even if your logical were infallible, retcons happen all the time and game design can shift drastically at the drop of a hat. And wow that was quite the wall of text >_<

You're not alone in thinking that lol, many have come into this thread posting the same conclusions about certain posts

Also no the devs have never said such, it is simply leaps of logic being made because some people have already decided they do not want High Elves to happen.

And yes it's a lot to write/respond to, but you did really great and I enjoyed reading this, which is why I personally don't bother anymore.

It'll just turn into circular posts that go nowhere, I would personally put effort/time towards focusing specifically on design ideas and what could be added to High Elves.

Once Blood Elves get their customization pass it'll also make it easier to suggest what High Elves can get as well.

Like from an image in the OP of this thread:



The blue colored highlighted braids can be an aesthetic differentiation from Blood Elves, as well as all those feathers in the hair/ears akin to the recent options Wildhammer Dwarves are getting. It works since High Elves and Wildhammer are said to have good relationships!

[ddi2]

Dude, I am not going to waste time reading your paragraph long complaint. Either address the argument, or you'll need to secede the point.

I've just addressed the only argument about the model I've found.

Your counter argument is false given the statement by the developers in regards to the body types as well as the statements made by them preceding shadowlands.
In essence, now, when you make your dwarf look like a wildhammer dwarf, you can say you are a wildhammer. You are no longer going to be a human who is of stormwind and only stormwind. You are a human, and your background is your own. Per the devs, this is to give players more freedom in their own origin and how they view themselves.

I'm honestly not up to date with Shadowlands, the devs did say what I stated before BfA, did their position change? We don't have Stormwind Humans and Kul'Tiran Humans anymore? The two human races are now 'fat human' and 'not fat human'? Or how it's supposed to work?

That's a nice story and all, feel free to explain how, otherwise, you're just making a claim for the sake of making one.

Because it shows that two same races by lore can have two different playable models, of course.

You do realize this is the exact point I was making right?
That what you like and accept is silly and not worth a serious discussion.
Your lack of self awareness is worrisome.

You telling others what they should like is silly and not worth serious discussion. I don't care whatsoever what you actually think about what I like and accept.

You do realize design and the like is entirely relevant towards faction identity yes>
I am glad you like the word demagogy but do not use it to describe my arguments when it describes yours.
After all, you're the only one going on and on about how you feel about others arguments and how those feelings determines whether or not they hold relevance.

My feelings toward certain arguments don't determine their relevancy. Their relevancy determines their relevancy for me. I get that you don't like when your arguments are called a demagogy but I am simply telling how I see them. At least some of them.

[Broflake]

I'm honestly not up to date with Shadowlands, the devs did say what I stated before BfA, did their position change? We don't have Stormwind Humans and Kul'Tiran Humans anymore? The two human races are now 'fat human' and 'not fat human'? Or how it's supposed to work?

They're just humans, simple as that now. Its been that way for a long time.
If you go kul tiran, you can RP being from stormwind or wherever, it doesn't matter anymore. They want to give players more freedom and I suppose, create consistency in design views.

Because it shows that two same races by lore can have two different playable models, of course.

I don't think you seem to understand my point.
Yes, they can have two different models, BUT, where those models go depends on what faction the parent race is located as well as design philosophy.
The whole "well we can give high elves a different model" is a bad argument because void elves exist. They are different, and the alliance is not going to get a brand new model, for a race that exists on the Horde.
Design wise, they'd get the old model and a new model, when the original parent faction is the Horde.
If a new model did occur, its going to be on the Horde. With its parent faction.
Just like how Kul tirans remained with their parent fac

You telling others what they should like is silly and not worth serious discussion. I don't care whatsoever what you actually think about what I like and accept.

I mean...again, I am not your mirror. You are discussing your own behavior.
If you don't want to address an actual argument though, you can simply not respond.

My feelings toward certain arguments don't determine their relevancy.

You're fooling me with your actions.

Their relevancy determines their relevancy for me. I get that you don't like when your arguments are called a demagogy but I am simply telling how I see them. At least some of them.

Words have meaning bud, and if all you are going to do is argue about how you feel about an argument, then you're not actually having an honest discussion.
If you're not going to have a discussion, then its a waste of time for both of us no?

[ddi2]

They're just humans, simple as that now. Its been that way for a long time.
If you go kul tiran, you can RP being from stormwind or wherever, it doesn't matter anymore. They want to give players more freedom and I suppose, create consistency in design views.

What you can RP is irrelevant for how the game treats you though. Does the game itself then acknowledge that when you start to play a Kul'Tiran you don't actually necessarily play one? Are the quests neutral about your faction?

I don't think you seem to understand my point.
Yes, they can have two different models, BUT, where those models go depends on what faction the parent race is located as well as design philosophy.

An I keep asking, why it depends on what faction the parent race is located in? Why it matters? And all I seem to get is an elaborate 'because it does'. Your RP argument was the only one that actually addressed my question.

The whole "well we can give high elves a different model" is a bad argument because void elves exist.

Why Void Elves prevent that?

They are different, and the alliance is not going to get a brand new model, for a race that exists on the Horde.

Why they can't get it?

Design wise, they'd get the old model and a new model, when the original parent faction is the Horde.
If a new model did occur, its going to be on the Horde. With its parent faction.
Just like how Kul tirans remained with their parent fac

Why it has to be that way?

You've been giving these arguments that don't actually prove anything and are more or less 'it won't happen' statements all the time, hence me dismissing them. I can see that Blizzard doesn't want it to happen. Why it can't happen is something you have repeatedly failed to explain.

I mean...again, I am not your mirror. You are discussing your own behavior.
If you don't want to address an actual argument though, you can simply not respond.

I see you fail to recognise what you were doing, ok.

[Pregnant Orc]

If Highelves (the ones using that name and not the ones using the name Bloodelves) get another model why would it have to be given to the Horde? I'm sure all the current Bloodelf players would love to have their characters converted to a new model with the limited allied race options over their current and especially over theri upcoming options.
Best case scenario for a new model (not a modified Blood elf model but something akin to what Zandalari are to regular trolls) would be one shared between Alliance and Horde with some minor tweaks for each side. With the Highelves from the Alliance being made playable and the Horde getting something they'd like such as San'layn (who have according to the Alliance war campaign) or undead elves for those who wish for a more Sylvanas looking Forsaken.

[Strippling]

He quite obviously meant 'high elves' as a fantasy trope.

He clearly meant that blood elves are our representation of the high elf race in WoW. Subsequently, the high elf race is already a playable option and are available on the Horde. That a few of them remained with the Alliance is irrelevant. The reality is that they are the same race as their kin on the Horde and their race is already a playable option on the Horde. Making them playable on the Alliance would essentially make the high elf race de-facto neutral, which is unfair to expect the Horde to have one of their core races become neutral for the sake of the fragmented group of alliance aligned high elves. It would blur faction lines, harm faction identity and detract from the uniqueness of blood elves.

Blood elves are our high elves. No amount of mental gymnastics will change this fact, a fact stated by Chris Metzen himself.

- - - Updated - - -

Ultimately, the easiest course of action for Blizzard is to simply expand the Void Elf palette options and give some minor lore nods towards how the Ren'Dorei are expanding their population.

This option would water down the identity of void elves (making them less void despite their entire theme revolving around the void). Also, it'd essentially make them blood elves which I think defeats the purpose of making them void elves who look voidy in the first place. Void elves have a void theme for a reason, it'd be a dis-justice to water down their core theme.

- - - Updated - - -

Alleria is not a Void Elf.

Wrong.

"The Horde is nothing!” With those infamous words, Sylvanas Windrunner betrayed and abandoned the Horde she vowed to serve. The Dark Lady and her forces now work in the shadows as both the Horde and Alliance, including her own sister, Alleria, race to uncover her next move. Struggling to shoulder the crushing weight of leadership, King Anduin entrusts the void elf and High Exarch Turalyon to uncover Sylvanas’s whereabouts.


https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...r-pre-purchase

[elbleuet]

You can be both a high elf and a void elf. Alleria is the proof of that.


Otherwise, if a high elf with a void form button is considered as a void elf, then blood elves studying the void in Telogrus Rift can be considered as void elves too.

[Strippling]

You can be both a high elf and a void elf. Alleria is the proof of that.


Otherwise, if a high elf with a void form button is considered as a void elf, then blood elves studying the void in Telogrus Rift can be considered as void elves too.

I'm going to call your opinion out. What you said is 100% opinion, it is not fact.

Blizzard clearly labelled Alleria as a void elf in their description of the upcoming Novel. No where did it say "Alleria the void and high elf"... no it clearly referred to her as a void elf. She has been tainted by the void. I thought the pro high elfers in this thread were describing Alliance high elves as "untainted elves"? Nevertheless, she has been labelled as a void elf and as such is a void elf. She has undergone a transformation that has changed her from what she once was.

[FlubberPuddy]

If Highelves (the ones using that name and not the ones using the name Bloodelves) get another model why would it have to be given to the Horde? I'm sure all the current Bloodelf players would love to have their characters converted to a new model with the limited allied race options over their current and especially over theri upcoming options.
Best case scenario for a new model (not a modified Blood elf model but something akin to what Zandalari are to regular trolls) would be one shared between Alliance and Horde with some minor tweaks for each side. With the Highelves from the Alliance being made playable and the Horde getting something they'd like such as San'layn (who have according to the Alliance war campaign) or undead elves for those who wish for a more Sylvanas looking Forsaken.

The funniest thing is the fact that Blizzard used the same model between Void Elves and Blood Elves is what got them to fix some animation and customization for Blood Elves.

They were working on Void Elves and at the same time were able to fix their bow shooting animations and the whole duck/pursed lips things male Blood Elves had going on for a while.

It’s just like how Mag’har being decided led to Orc players finally getting posture options.

It will not surprise me if say Blood Elves get some of the beard options available to Void Elves, as we see Humans getting some of the Kul’Tiran facial hair options.

So that’s the kinda funny thing about it, that working on similar models/features actually benefits both the new option and the old.

Makes the people wanting to deny High Elves look like there’s no good reason other than gaining satisfaction from denying others options that would end up benefitting their own existing options as well.

[Broflake]

What you can RP is irrelevant for how the game treats you though. Does the game itself then acknowledge that when you start to play a Kul'Tiran you don't actually necessarily play one? Are the quests neutral about your faction?

Mmkay, allow me to clarify since it seems I was not clear.
Playing a Kul tiran does not necessarily mean you are Kul Tiran. Your character can be from wherever, its not designated any longer.

An I keep asking, why it depends on what faction the parent race is located in? Why it matters? And all I seem to get is an elaborate 'because it does'. Your RP argument was the only one that actually addressed my question.

This is you sealioning.
It matters, because the Alliance is where humans go. Asking such a question is simply being disingenuous.

Why Void Elves prevent that?

Simply because they are the modification you requested. As I have stated before.
Again, this is another sea lion.

Why they can't get it?

The reasons are listed in the text after. This is a failure of sealioning.

Why it has to be that way?

Because of design.
You are attempting a form of socratic reasoning and it does not work because this is not philosophy where the matter is unclear and left up for debate and reasoning towards human nature.
It is a game with a clear design.

You've been giving these arguments that don't actually prove anything and are more or less 'it won't happen' statements all the time, hence me dismissing them. I can see that Blizzard doesn't want it to happen. Why it can't happen is something you have repeatedly failed to explain.

Your refusal to see the argument and reasons presented before you is why you are dismissing them. This makes the discussion with you pointless, because you have no interest in having an honest discussion. Simply put, you're acting in bad faith.

I see you fail to recognise what you were doing, ok.

You've already made it quite clear that you have no interest in an honest discussion dude. So we'll move on, and when you're ready to have a discussion and not merely shake your head in denial then we can have one. Otherwise, all that will occur is you getting increasingly frustrated since the discussion won't go the way you want it to.

Feel free to respond, but if it isn't of substance I won't reply.

[Obelisk Kai]

I have a bit of a problem with how you post. You tend to speak in absolutes as if you have actual insight/authority into Blizzard's process and intentions (do you? are you a Blizzard dev?) rather than speaking as if what you're saying are opinions and/or assumptions (which they largely seem to be if you aren't a dev). I get that you may feel that you're making solid logical conclusions based on your interpretations of various interviews and comments, but I think you would benefit from adjusting how you phrase your points so you don't come off as if your conclusions are definitively correct and your logical is infallible. I'm not saying you actually feel that way (how the hell would I know?), and obviously tone is hard to convey via text, but your posts do "feel" like that to me and I can see why it engenders hostility from those on the pro side of the debate.

If you were attempting to reach me, or get me to reflect on my postings as a result of this paragraph, the snarky asided regarding 'are you a blizzard developer' ensured that attempt entirely died then and there.

So no, I am not a Blizzard developer. However, I do not need to be. I have predicated my arguments entirely on what Blizzard and it's representatives have said coupled with long term precedents and their behaviour with previous additions. Nobody needs to be a developer to determine their line of thinking or their overwhelmingly likely courses of action if you simply look at what they have said and done, rather than what you may wish they have said and done. Nor do hypotheticals get a free pass because they are hypotheticals. It's a hypothetical possibility I could win the lottery this weekend, but based on precedence and the laws of probability I shouldn't be planning my mansion just yet. Similarly, concepts for a high elf allied race or human range skin tones on void elves can be interrogated based on precedent and what they have said. If the evidence points one way and then they change their minds, which of course possible, that does not render the argument incorrect as of the time it was made. The critical point is that they would have changed their minds, which given the state of play is going to require an almost 180 degree turn on their part.
Whilst possible, at the moment there is no evidence that is in the offing. There is plentiful evidence towards the opposite. Confidence regarding a course of action is warranted when the evidence supporting that course of action is strong.

On to your post... I don't agree that existing lore "rules out" other elves following in Alleria's footsteps. Unless I've missed something, nothing in the existing lore has defined the specifics and limitations of the process Alleria went through. We only see a small slice of her specific journey in the Argus campaign, have seen some tidbits in media outside of the game, and have barely scratched the depths of what Locus Walker actually knows. Would my hypothetical situation require the devs to provide additional information to flesh out what we know of the process? Yes, I won't deny that, but for the sake of the hypothetical, if Blizzard expands on the lore and has Locus Walker say something like, "We don't have an abundance of dark naaru's at hand but several lesser void beings can be used in place of a single dark naaru", then... we're good right?

Given Alleria consumed several lesser void beings as part of her preparation for her confrontation with the dark naaru and didn't transform this seems unlikely. And pointing out that we only saw a small piece of her journey, the ending, could be used to argue that an Alleria type void elf requires decades or centuries of study and preparation to achieve. The method which transformed Umbric was a matter of minutes in comparison.

You said "existing lore rules that out" (implying that the lore definitively says we can't do it with any substitutions) when in fact the existing lore we have on the process is incredibly limited and doesn't actually say that it can't be done with something other than a dark naaru. It only shows/tells us how it was done this one time. Additional lore from the devs can expand on the process and what alternatives might be viable. You're focused on the rarity of dark naaru and completely shutting down any possibility of an alternative to using a dark naaru in the process.

The dark naaru triggering Alleria's transformation was cited by Sylvanas, Umbric and by Alleria herself onboard the Vindicaar after the event.
Existing lore is what we know for a fact. If they write additional lore, then that becomes existing lore, but that lore does not exist. We can only argue based upon what we know. There is also the point that this 'lore' has a particular goal, justifying high elf customisations on void elves. This is where gameplay and lore clash. Void Elves were given their skin tone range to differentiate them from Blood Elves.

Dark Iron Dwarves are similarly differentiated from ordinary Dwarves based on their ashen gray skin tones, rather than the human range ones the majority of the other Dwarves currently use.
Should additional lore be expected to justify Dark Iron skin tones on ordinary Dwarves?
Mag'har Orcs are differentiated from ordinary Orcs by having a range of non green skin tones. Should additional lore be provided for mag'har orc skin tones on ordinary Orcs?
Lightforged Draenei are differentiated from ordinary Draenei by their ivory skin tones, golden tattoos, and unique horn shapes. Should additional lore be provided for ordinary Draenei to have these options?

I also don't agree that the method that created Umbric's squad is "easy" in any way, shape, or form. I believe in this case your bias is showing. In arguing against using Alleria's method, you took great pains to point out specifics of the process (from what little we know of it) and yet when arguing for using Nether-Prince Durzaan's method (if you can call it that), you've glossed over the minutiae and said "Merely bombard a target with void energy until they begin transforming and then stop at a moment when they are midway between an elf and an ethereal". Really? It's that easy? You have the dev lore bible at hand and it says this is all that it takes? I'm sorry but no that just isn't going to fly.

Nether-Prince Durzaan performed a ritual to transform Umbric's squad into creatures of the void. That ritual was interrupted with no way of knowing exactly how far in to the ritual it was, or what exactly happened during the interruption. Nor are we privy to the specifics of the ritual, its power, or its limitations. You just assumed that all Durzaan was doing was "bombarding them with void energy". I'm inclined to think there was much more complexity to the process than that. You made such a valiant effort to argue against using Alleria's method but then just hand waved away any roadblocks to turning what was objectively an accident, into a controlled, stable, and ultimately safe process that could be done with ease. That's really not a fair way to present things.

You make the same hand-wavy assumption with the ravasaurs. We are never told the specifics of the spells the void elves are using to animate the ravasaur constructs. You just assumed all they are doing is "blasting them with void energy". I'm fairly certain there was more to it than that. I also don't think its fair to point at the mount, something that was obviously made to match the void elf theme and heritage armor, and just make up stuff so as to support your argument.

Nothing has to be fair. We have seen both events in action. Alleria's transformation involved years of training building up to consuming the heart of a dark naaru, the dark naaru consumption being the trigger is attested to by Umbric, Sylvanas and Alleria herself, and the way the cinematic itself is shot.

In contrast, yes, all that is happening with the ritual is they are being bombarded with void energies by an ethereal prince. The Ethereals are the result of the self same transformative process, as their world was bathed in void energies by Dimensius the All Devourer. This is what transformed them from mortal beings into ethereals. The ritual was going to transform the elves into ethereals, but was interrupted midway, leaving the targets as void elves. Now, if there are specific modulations or timings involved in the use of the void energy, I guess the best person to ask about that (if they wished to understand the process for replication) would be a friendly ethereal well versed in the secrets of the void who could help them iron out any kinks in the process. Luckily they have one of those. Supposition of course, but Void Elves ARE able to transform other beings into void based variants. Void Ravasaurs and Voidstriders are two examples of creatures transformed into variants AFTER the initial ritual.

And it is perfectly fair to point out the mount. It's an example of azeroth native fauna that now happens to exist in a void based form and is used by the Void Elves. And the Ravasaurs are the same, living creatures shifted to a void based form by being bombarded by void magic. We literally see the Void Elves doing this in Zuldazar. And when we saw the Void Elves being transformed in the ritual...they were being bombarded by void magic. This is less making stuff up than drawing reasonable and evidence based conclusions based on the available information.

Here's another approach then. Which is a more likely means of making new Void Elves? Hunting down an incredibly rare dark naaru and eating it's heart which has changed one person or replicating the ritual used by the ethereals which is seemingly already taking place and has converted a lot more than one person already?

As to the idea of void elves making more currently... Blizzard is on record as saying that Void Elves are not actively recruiting though they are looking for a way to make more. But right now there is no way to make more Void Elves, at least not the kind that we have playable, and there is nothing in game to contradict that. I believe that the npcs we see in Telegrous would fall under Blizzard's "there are as many of them as we need there to be for the story" policy. I would also say that's the same reason there were suddenly a ton of disposable void elf npc's in the Nazmir suicide army. I don't think it wise to base any population assumptions on what we see in game.

That particular quote you are referencing to base this paragraph upon is found at https://www.polygon.com/2019/1/21/18...user-interview

Unsurprisingly, it's been heavily debated here.

Here is the actual question, and here is the actual response, and it's important to take both together.

Question:With Alleria Windrunner’s story being an internal success on Argus, the team saw it as the opportunity for a new twist on elves. There’s just one question: If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?

So, the question posed to Danuser is that Void Elves come from a small group of exiles...where do the numbers come from? The reason it's important to keep the question in mind in regards to the answer is that when Danuser answers, he is answering where the numbers came from.

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

They START out as a small group. Start. As in at the very beginning, they ARE a small group. A couple of void curious mages and warlocks hanging out in Tel'ogrus. The word start implies that the further you get from that the start, the less of a small group they are.

He then goes on to talk about elves curious regarding new powers seeking them out to see if they can undergo a similar process. Given the Void Elves STARTED as a small group, and he then talks about elves seeking them out to undergo a similar process, there is only one reasonable interpretation of the question and answer. That some elves have heard about them, and whilst they aren't going out proclaiming the advantages of the void, they are open to those who come to them, they teach them the ways of the void and then they become void elves via the ritual. The same rituals they have demonstrated when changing ravasaurs or voidstriders.

This is even supported in game. You can access two island in Tel'ogrus as a Void Elf. On the first island, nearest the portal, you find high elf wayfarers and silvermoon scholars clustered around locus walker, giddy at the power they are ready to finally embrace. This is clearly to demonstrate to void elf players that you can roleplay your void elf however you wish. Defecting blood elf from the horde? Former Kael'thas loyalist angry at his people for toppling the prince? Silver Covenant high elf exile a bit teed off after years in Dalaran with nothing to show for it? All are open possibilities here.
Then if you move to the second island you see Void Elf initiates who are still mastering their new powers, being instructed by a more experienced Void Elf. The existence of an instructor and initiates themselves implies that one has been at this for longer than the others, and if everyone had been transformed at the same time in the same time in the same event then there wouldn't be that divide.

They'd just all be learning from Alleria and Locus Walker.

So in summary, we have an interview with Steve Danuser where he is asked where Void Elf numbers come from and he answers.
We have void elves using their powers to convert ravasaurs and hawkstriders into void based variants.
We have a ritual that is confirmed to be quick and able to convert more than one individual into a void elf.
We have a friendly ethereal able to plug any potential gaps in the knowledge regarding the ritual that may have hypothetically existed (hypothetical problems with replicating the ritual cancelled out by hypothetical solutions).
We have void elf numbers (capable of sending a relatively force to a suicide mission) and classes (more than must mages) that are not reflective of the initial group transformed.
We have void curious elves on one island, and void elf neophytes learning from a more experienced instructor on the second.

The preponderance of in game evidence, coupled with Danuser's answer, lead to the conclusion that they are indeed transforming other elves into Void Elves.

The reason this is so objectionable of course is two fold. Firstly, if they are transforming elves NOW then they are capable of transforming high elf exiles now. This means that those who argue that what they want to play is a high elf who has always been loyal to the Alliance and never sided with Silvermoon and the Horde would no longer have any excuse. They could do so as a Void Elf who was a former Silver Covenant member. Arguing they can't change other elves is an attempt to argue high elves, the 'proper' high elves, still can't be played.

Secondly, if void elves are able to transform other elves now, then it seems the elves themselves are fine with coming out grape coloured as a by-product of their transformation, or at least regard it as an acceptable price to pay for their transformation. So what's the motivation to find another ritual that leaves them looking the way they did before, one that of course clashes against the gameplay need of keeping the void elves distinct from Blood Elves.

As to the idea of void elves being a "compromise"... As far as I know, Blizzard has never said that Void Elves are any sort of "compromise" in regards to High Elves. Reading into what is said in interviews and making assumptions on what that means is all well and good when you convey that that's what you're doing, but implying that it definitively means something that has never actually been said (from what I've seen/heard) is disingenuous. But please, if it has actually been said in those words, provide a source and I'll gladly cede that specific point.

They considered high elves, Ion even suggested high elves as a sub-race in 2013 when the system was first hinted at, and rejected them on the grounds of being identical to blood elves.

I don't think anyone really believes that after a decade of asking for high elves (this topic goes much further back than 2017) that that request had no impact on the decision to create Void Elves, one of only two races whose parent is on the opposite faction. It really stretches credibility to suggest that Void Elves were created without any reference to the high elf demand whatsoever and that the devs were blissfully unaware of the numerous posts stretching back a decade asking for it.

This of course stems from the same goal. If it can be demonstrated Void elves weren't a replacement for high elves, that means there is a possibility they may be added. Of course, the question posted to Ion in the 2018 interview where he rejected high elves was phrased as 'why were void elves chosen instead of high elves'.
That question was predicated on what is obvious, void elves replaced high elves. Ion didn't deny this, he didn't say 'well void elves were a cool idea that doesn't rule out high elves'. He answered the question. He explained the compromise. Another flavour of high elf, something like a blood elf, for the Alliance, to protect the lines between the faction.

I would urge you to consider my earlier advice about your posting. You certainly seem very sure of yourself and your conclusions about things, but I would say its wise to remember you aren't a dev (unless you are?), you can't actually speak on behalf of the devs (unless you are a dev of course), and your logic isn't infallible, nor are you without bias. And even if your logical were infallible, retcons happen all the time and game design can shift drastically at the drop of a hat. And wow that was quite the wall of text >_<

As stated, I found your earlier advice offensively phrased and I have disregarded it as a result (and you double down on the reasons why in this final passage).
If a retcon happens, a retcon happens, but any changes at this stage would be retcons. I will not limit my arguments due to the possibility of a retcon that may never come. If a retcon occurs, that does not retroactively prove me wrong, any more than someone who argued the Eredar corrupted Sargeras were wrong when they stated that in 2004. We work with what we have.

[elbleuet]

I'm going to call your opinion out. What you said is 100% opinion, it is not fact.

Blizzard clearly labelled Alleria as a void elf in their description of the upcoming Novel. No where did it say "Alleria the void and high elf"... no it clearly referred to her as a void elf. She has been tainted by the void. I thought the pro high elfers in this thread were describing Alliance high elves as "untainted elves"? Nevertheless, she has been labelled as a void elf and as such is a void elf. She has undergone a transformation that has changed her from what she once was.

"Alleria the void and high elf" sounds just awful to begin with so ofc she's not labeled as such.
So you're basically saying that every blood and high elf that deals with the void permanently can be considered as void elves. And I agree with that.

[Kyriani]

As stated, I found your earlier advice offensively phrased and I have disregarded it as a result (and you double down on the reasons why in this final passage).
If a retcon happens, a retcon happens, but any changes at this stage would be retcons. I will not limit my arguments due to the possibility of a retcon that may never come. If a retcon occurs, that does not retroactively prove me wrong, any more than someone who argued the Eredar corrupted Sargeras were wrong when they stated that in 2004. We work with what we have.

I apologize if my suggestion offended you. That was not my intent. As I mentioned earlier, it's difficult to convey tone via text >_< I was not trying to be snarky with my comments in quotes but actually leaving room for the possibility that you might actually be a Blizzard dev posting anonymously. In case it wasn't clear by my previous posts, I try not to speak to in absolutes (though I don't always succeed) and leave myself open to possibilities (which I suppose is why I find void elves interesting and would like to see them get more solid lore development).

While I don't agree with all your conclusions and how you reached them, I can see you've put a great deal of thought into them. I won't argue with you further since it seems that the crux of your argument appears to be that additional lore would be required for it to work, which is a point I actually agree with. I do hope though that you will at least consider how you present your posts to others. I'm not saying you need to change your arguments, but from my point of view, there is certainly potential to appear less adversarial (even if you don't mean to be). I will also try to see if I can adjust my own posting habits so as to convey less snark (which again was not my intent and I do apologize if that's what you took away from my post).

[Broflake]

"Alleria the void and high elf" sounds just awful to begin with so ofc she's not labeled as such.
So you're basically saying that every blood and high elf that deals with the void permanently can be considered as void elves. And I agree with that.

Well...if you get transformed and you're no longer ahigh elf, it makes sense to be called accordingly.
Alleria is not anything of a high elf anymore, she is a void elf.
Just like how high/blood elves who absorb fel and get transformed are call fel elves.

[Frenchvince]

He too must be in a hurry to see what the high elves will look like, especially their eyes.

https://twitter.com/Stiven_SRB/statu...37542863880193

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I hope that they will have two variants for their eyes, with and without glow, as we have always seen them in WOW or others.

[ddi2]

Mmkay, allow me to clarify since it seems I was not clear.
Playing a Kul tiran does not necessarily mean you are Kul Tiran. Your character can be from wherever, its not designated any longer.

You were clear enough, and I asked in return, do NPCs and quests not address a player as a Kul'Tiran if the player plays as a fat human? It was a 'yes or no' question.

This is you sealioning.
It matters, because the Alliance is where humans go. Asking such a question is simply being disingenuous.


Simply because they are the modification you requested. As I have stated before.
Again, this is another sea lion.


The reasons are listed in the text after. This is a failure of sealioning.


Because of design.
You are attempting a form of socratic reasoning and it does not work because this is not philosophy where the matter is unclear and left up for debate and reasoning towards human nature.
It is a game with a clear design.

Your refusal to see the argument and reasons presented before you is why you are dismissing them. This makes the discussion with you pointless, because you have no interest in having an honest discussion. Simply put, you're acting in bad faith.

Ah, yes, 'sealioning', ' bad faith' and other buzzwords, just so that you don't address the actual point. I'll clarify, when I ask why whether the races are in the same or different factions matter in whether they get a new model or not, you saying that it's because Khul'Tirans are in the same faction is you simply rephrasing the question I ask, not making an argument. It's a classic example of circular reasoning. You then telling that Blizzard is not going to give separate models in different factions is, again, you rephrasing my question. Basically nothing (except for the RP argument) that you have said actually counts as an argument, it's simply you paraphrasing your point over and over again. Again, a classic example of circular reasoning.

If it's so simple to understand as you actually claim, you would have easily answered my questions of "why" and explained it. Yet you bristle instead, accuse me of arguing in bad faith and pretending that I don't get your arguments. Well, it just shows me that even if you wished to explain, you actually can't and this then showcases to me how weak your point actually is. You indeed don't have to reply to me unless you are willing to actually try to answer 'why' to at least one of my questions by not just repeating your point.

[elbleuet]

He too must be in a hurry to see what the high elves will look like, especially their eyes.

https://twitter.com/Stiven_SRB/statu...37542863880193

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I hope that they will have two variants for their eyes, with and without glow, as we have always seen them in WOW or others.

Damn. High elves are the best.

- - - Updated - - -

Well...if you get transformed and you're no longer ahigh elf, it makes sense to be called accordingly.
Alleria is not anything of a high elf anymore, she is a void elf.
Just like how high/blood elves who absorb fel and get transformed are call fel elves.

Alleria isn't transformed. She just has a void form button. It would be like saying night elves druids are no longer Night elves because they can transform into some creatures.

So according to you blood elves who are mastering the void can also move to the Alliance and become void elves while keeping their original physical apparence.

[FlubberPuddy]

He too must be in a hurry to see what the high elves will look like, especially their eyes.

https://twitter.com/Stiven_SRB/statu...37542863880193

Is this a new NPC or Stiven's own creation?